MC Fireside Chats – September 13th, 2023

[00:00:00] This is MC Fireside Chats, a weekly show featuring conversations with thought leaders, entrepreneurs, and outdoor hospitality experts who share their insights to help your business succeed. Hosted by Brian Searl, the founder and CEO of Insider Perks, empowered by insights from Modern Campground, the most innovative news source in the industry.[00:01:00] 

Cara Ciszmadia: Good afternoon, everybody. And welcome to another episode of MC Fireside Chats. Uh, I am an old familiar face, uh, back for… I mean, what I will argue is probably going to be the best show of the year, since it’s me, right? No, uh, for those of you who don’t know, my name is Cara Csizmadia. I am president of the Canadian Camping RV Council.

I am formerly the co host on this show, and so I’m back here helping out for the week as Brian is on well deserved and well earned vacation time. So, we are back for our regular glamping episode, which we have once a month. Before we dive into the episode, I just want to do our shout out to Horizon Outdoor Hospitality, mainly so that I don’t drop the ball and get, you know, deep down in conversation and forget all about it.

So I just want to say thank you, delivering decades of combined expertise there that industry leaders dedicated to elevating assets in the outdoor hospitality industry. Whether you need [00:02:00] third party management solutions, top notch accounting, strategic marketing, or assistance in brokerage and development.

Horizon Outdoor Hospitality has you covered. Their unwavering commitment to excellence ensures your outdoor hospitality business reaches its full potential. Thank you, Horizon, for your support of MC Fireside Chats. Awesome. Okay, so we are, uh, kind of on the verge of fall. Certainly here in Canada, where I’m located, we are feeling that transition right now.

We’re starting to see, uh, some of our parks and resorts and properties, uh, transition into, uh, more shoulder season occupancy time, uh, numbers, as well as, obviously, you know, the season shifting and things. Cooling down a little bit. We have a really interesting dynamic here in Alberta where I am with the color changes and that really drives a lot of like hiking and outdoor traffic at this time of the year as [00:03:00] everyone clamors to get those last trips in before the snow falls.

So it’s always one of my favorite times of the year here both because of those things. Because I like to do those things, but also, uh, in the industry and at the association level where I work, we get to start really meeting again with property owners across the country as their big summer season is behind them and, and transitioning to things.

So I get to experience networking and, and sitting down with them again, which I’m actually excited to do in October Glamping Show Americas. Zach, will I see you there again? 

Zach: I will be there. We’re, we’re actually, um, asked to, to speak this year. So we’ll be presenting on, uh, the Monday events of the show, um, to encourage people to kind of think long term about their glamping resorts.

What are, what are some forward thinking, uh, things that they can do? What are the, the common challenges with glamping? Staffing and [00:04:00] operations and what are some of the kind of new things that are coming to the industry to help resort owners and developers and builders do, do better, um, just kind of elevate the industry as a whole.

So we’re really excited to be there, um, actually coming out with a couple of members of our team, um, looking forward to meeting folks and, and seeing what, if anything we can do to, to help them. 

Cara Ciszmadia: Ah, I’m so excited. I will definitely sit in on that session. I really encourage, uh, viewers and anybody involved in the industry, or even considering getting involved to attend that event, I can’t say enough about, last year was my first year, uh, getting to go in person, and it was really, really Not only just incredibly informative, but such a great way to network and connect with folks in the industry.

And then, of course, also see a ton of incredible product all in one place. Uh, do all those comparisons and things like that. The tire kicking, if you [00:05:00] will, is next level, incomparable. The Glamping Show Americas, their team does a wonderful job. So well attended and lots of bodies in there. That’s always the big thing is you almost don’t have enough time to see everybody.

It’s crazy, but, uh, super excited to see everybody that will be there in October. 

Zach: I think we’re going to do a live show from there too, right?

Cara Ciszmadia: I heard, apparently. 

I’ll, uh, I’ll be in the audience. I’ll excitedly, uh, watch. Maybe I’ll submit some questions for you guys to offer, or whatever. Ah, here’s Ruben.

Welcome, Ruben. So, you’re joining us as timely. I’m going to go around the room and ask everyone for an introduction, and just kind of who you represent or work for, or, uh, how you… Play in the outdoor hospitality industry with us here, and then we’ll dive into a couple of things today. So let’s start with Alex.

Alex Allred: Uh, hey guys. My name’s uh, Alex [00:06:00] Rad. I live in Asheville, North Carolina, and I’m a general contractor. A few years ago we started building some domes. We. We work with Pacific Domes and our little niche is we build these as a dwelling. So we put electrical, mechanical, we have full on kitchenette, shower, so we build the fanciest tents around basically.

Cara Ciszmadia: Fancy tents, we love it. And Richard? 

Richard Cherry: Fancy tents. I love it too. Yeah, so I’m Richard. Uh, we’re from near Cape Town in South Africa. My wife and I have a glamping business where we basically, uh, permanently set up bell tents. Um, and one, one fancy unit, like I would gladly show Alex. And we base, we, we, yeah, we, we focus on functions.

So we always fill up the tents with… One group of people and, and then we do functions like weddings, birthdays, et cetera. 

Cara Ciszmadia: Cool. [00:07:00] Exciting. I have some big questions for both of you guys, but, uh, Zach, I know we already touched on, on your exciting stuff for The Glamping Show, but an intro, please. 

Zach: So my name is Zach Stoltenberg.

I’m the Director of Outdoor Hospitality with Clockwork Architecture. Uh, we’re based in Kansas City. And, uh, we, we specialize in, uh, designing, developing, permitting, improving, um, glamping, camping in, in outdoor hospitality resorts, uh, across the country. So I like to say I have the best job in the world because I get to work with really incredible people and, and help them build their dream, build their vision, their goal for, for, uh, glamping resorts.

Um, so yeah, that’s who we are. We’re, we’re a recurring guest on, um, uh, Fireside Chats. So always happy to, to weigh in and, uh, connect with other people in the industry. Yeah. Grateful 

Cara Ciszmadia: for your time. And Ruben. 

Ruben: Hello everybody. Uh, Ruben martinez, [00:08:00] the founder, executive director of the American Glamping Association.

So we provide tools, resources, community network for anybody and everybody. In the glamping space, um, been around in the industry for almost 15 years now with a variety of, of businesses over the years, everything from manufacturing and tech to operations and, uh, but, um, Zach, I have the best job in the world, so I might, uh, but no, it’s, it’s been fun to see how everything’s been growing, uh, over the years and always excited to, Um, kind of do what we get to do on a daily basis and talk amping all day, every day.

Cara Ciszmadia: Yeah. Well, I was gonna say, I have the best job in the world, but I don’t know if we can all fight this so out here. 

Zach: How about everybody? 

Everybody has the best job.

Cara Ciszmadia: All in one hour. 

Zach: I think anytime you’re, you’re passionate and purposeful about what you’re doing and, and [00:09:00] you enjoy the people that you get to do it with, then that is the best job in the world, right?

Ruben: Yeah. And Zach, I’m not smart enough to be able to do your job. 

Cara Ciszmadia: It wouldn’t be the best job for me because of that factor. Yeah, totally. Um, so I, I was, Zach was mentioning, uh, we’ll run into him in, in Denver in October at the glamping show. I assume Ruben, you’ll be there too. 

Ruben: Yeah. No, looking forward to it.

It’s going to be, um, you know, the amount of vendors that we have, we filled up pretty quickly. There’s a lot of. Indoor, outdoor, new existing, um, businesses that will be there and just, it’s always a, this is the one time of the year that everybody can be under the one roof at the same time and, and, uh, it’s a shame it’s only a few days in a certain way, but, uh, I know everybody leaves excited and invigorated and hopefully, um, you know, it’s a very productive time for people to, new, [00:10:00] new, new businesses, new connections, new sales and things like that.

So it’s just a great. Great time of the year and and always looking forward to it and looking forward to seeing and hanging out with you guys, too, yeah. 

Cara Ciszmadia: Yes, it’s gonna be great. I agree. It’s always very, I leave there excited and I have this fresh like perspective on the industry and how cool it is and how quickly it’s changing and all those things.

It’s, uh, it’s one of my my favorite industry events to attend for sure. Uh, so I am going to dive in with our guest I know Richard, you may have some time constraints, so maybe I’ll start with you. Um, I did a little bit of digging ahead of time about Cary Glamping. Um, but if you want to give us, I know you mentioned, uh, you guys focus a lot in the event space.

Um, I was looking at your website and the, the space. The big fancy tent looks [00:11:00] really, really awesome. Um, I’m wondering if you can share insights about how you effectively manage and maintain kind of the natural surroundings while accommodating guests in this kind of cool luxury way. How do you balance…

And maybe I’ll give a bit of background to this question. I’m a former campground owner and so I spent a lot of time being conscious about, you know, landscaping and strategically placing sites and units and connections and all of those things. Um, do you have any insight about your strategy behind doing that while maintaining the outdoor appeal of your property?

Richard Cherry: Yeah, I think we were lucky to get a very nice piece of property which, um, you know, wherever we stand we just have views and we were lucky enough that there were two forests on the, on the property that we could set up because, yeah, if you’re in a tent you need [00:12:00] shade because it’s not a house that you can use an aircon with.

Um, we’ve also brought in a lot of animals like zebras and some buck and uh, so there’s a constant fight between myself and my wife about landscaping because whatever she plants my animals eat, so, um, but that’s part of the image we wanted to create, to have this sort of safari outdoor idea, but what we’ve done is we’ve stuck in, we’ve, we’ve, we’ve We haven’t used any of the land except the two forest areas for the accommodation, and that’s where we are sticking with, and the rest we landscaped now with bigger trees where the zebras can’t reach, and um, And just, yeah, try and fit in with nature.

We’ve built two dams on the farm, which is just natural dams where people can swim and pull fish. Um, and yeah, a low footprint as possible. Okay. On the bigger part of the [00:13:00] land. 

Cara Ciszmadia: I’m curious to know, too, specifically as it relates to kind of large events, um, how logistically challenging is it to welcome and host events in a more kind of remote or rural location like that?

Are there specific considerations you make when planning events with your guest. 

Richard Cherry: So we don’t get involved in the event. So we have a service. That is the longevity of this for us. Because we, you know, there’s normally a planner or that’s involved. And normally it’s the one that we recommend. So there’s no reception even at our place.

People arrive, by then they’ll have their tent number, which they would get from their own host, which is maybe the bride or the planner. We don’t involve the caterers, they organize all of that, we just make sure that everything works that’s there. So, obviously, tents are made up [00:14:00] and decorated beautifully, the showers should be hot.

Unfortunately, you know, we only work on weekends basically, and then, um, if there’s an issue, it’s always Friday at 4. Um, but, yeah, it’s just general maintenance of the air to make sure all of that work, and then don’t get involved with… The guests, we, you know, I go on a Friday evening, I always say if it’s nice people I have a quick beer and if not then I go have a beer at home, but that’s about how far we are involved with the actual function of the weekend.

Cara Ciszmadia: That’s awesome. 

Richard Cherry: And it works for us because we don’t have hospitality staff. We basically give a blank canvas so the people bring their own decor for the function itself. Yeah, it’s just for us the best way to stay, to maintain our best job in the world, which I also have. 

Cara Ciszmadia: Yeah, great. Um, so then, I guess, given that…

Then that you’re kind of focused on the [00:15:00] facility and and things like that and and still selling this luxury experience do you have kind of a base list of the types of amenities that You would consider luxury or that your guests would that you feel are kind of non negotiables You need to have those in place like a hot shower.

She certainly is one of those Nationals to that. 

Richard Cherry: Yeah, we I think one one of those We obviously have all the amenities that you need, like soaps and good linen, which was a non negotiable for us, warm blankets, um, hot showers. It’s shared bathrooms, but we’ve learned over time to, to inform people well in advance because we don’t deal with the, with the people staying over.

So what we found often, they don’t know what to expect because nobody told them. So, you know, the bride and groom would come and have a look, and they’d go, Oh, we love this, and we love the zebra, and the tents are beautiful, and then they invite their guests, and then, you [00:16:00] know, people come and say, Oh, there’s no toilet in the tent.

I’m like, there never was. So it’s not like somebody stole it. So now we, we send out an extra document out that they can share with their guests to tell them exactly how the camp layouts work. So it was just over time we learned that, yeah, give as much information as you can before the time, so that whatever they expected, you know.

It was, um, communicated well before the talk. 

Cara Ciszmadia: I know that’s something Reuben talks about all the time, or I’ve heard him talk about multiple times, setting clear good guest expectation stuff. Um, we’ve talked about that on this show in my past experiences too. I agree, I think it’s vital. Um, and then my last question, I know I feel like I’ve got you on the hot seat here, but I’m curious, I saw on your website a mention of a no venue fee.

For guests staying over, which I find is an interesting approach, uh, how, how has this pricing strategy worked for your business? And, you know, do you, how do you find it’s [00:17:00] impacted bookings and occupancy? 

Richard Cherry: To be fair, our accommodation is quite expensive. It’s expensive for a tent. But, so if I can, uh, in our local currency, a luxury venue would probably cost you a hundred thousand rand for a venue.

So, say that’s for, uh, five thousand dollars for the venue. When, when people book 80 tents with two nights, that’s almost the equivalent. So that’s my, my, so they are getting… A free venue and accommodation for 80 people instead of just a venue. Um, what they charge their guests, I don’t know. Often the guests carry the whole cost of staying over and sometimes it’s either, um, subsidized by the couple or paid in full.

But that again is their choice. So whatever they were willing to pay for a venue, they could divide into the amount of debts, [00:18:00] basically. Interesting. So it’s a bit of a marketing tool, I think, to say no venue, because the tents are a little bit more expensive than what you would have paid for just a tent.

Zach: Sure. So Richard, I have a question. So when you do these events, you’re essentially renting the entire resort, correct? You’re not having private glamping guests and a wedding. You’re basically shutting down and the entire venue goes. for that event. Yeah, 

Richard Cherry: so we’ve got two camps actually, so there’s two camps and two venues, but, but we still rent it out to one group, so they would normally come for a weekend, which means they have a Friday night venue, and then a Saturday night venue, which would maybe be the big function, and then Friday night normally a barbecue with closer friends and family, or the whole group, depends on on, on who come for [00:19:00] two nights or one night.

But we don’t rent it out. Two different people because of music, so you know, you can’t have private people and then they, you know, have a little doof doof in the ear the whole night, so… So, yeah, it’s best to have one group and, you know, whoever makes a noise, they have to sort it out. 

Alex Allred: And Richard, do you have a pavilion or what’s the actual venue?

Richard Cherry: So, um, we have a… All this camp, which is about eight years old, has got a big deck that’s covered with a Bedouin tent. And that can host, we’ve hosted up to a hundred people there. And then our main venue, if I can call it that, is a glass enclosed, um, uh, It’s a steel structure. So it’s basically just steel and glass.

It’s probably 80 percent glass around the side, if not more. [00:20:00] It overlooks the valley, opens up to a nice big lawn area, which they use. This weekend we had a wedding party and 50 people actually inside, which I didn’t think was possible. Because normally with that size, they dance outside, but they did everything inside, so it’s a sizable venue that they have.

And the tents are actually around the venue. Um, yeah, it’s at the campsite, which is about 600 yards apart from each other. 

Alex Allred: Very cool, and you’ve managed to stay out of the logistics, I guess. You said there’s a planner that comes in, so you… I guess your vision for the place was to develop, um, a venue that you could just host people and sort of stay, stay out of it.

Exactly. Wow. I think I want to be like you when I grow up, like, that’s, that’s awesome. We have, um, some designs to do something similar in our area, but, um, I’m interested to, to learn more about your, your place. Um, [00:21:00] you know, we, we started with kind of a small. Just one unit. We bought a small piece of land and, um, we have, we want to scale up in time, but, um, I think that’s very interesting, um, in, in what you’re doing.

And can I ask, like, how, um, what’s your availability throughout the year? How, how, um, how long is your venue open throughout the year? 

Richard Cherry: We close for July, August, which is our winter, and for the rest, uh, we are open, so 40 weekends of the year we do our business. And then a little bit of midweek, we pushed hard for…

To get more, um, corporate business, but they also want to do their thing on the weekend, which I find amazing, you know, I would have thought, so, so, so, we do have, um, we do have, yeah, mainly weekends, with a few midweek weddings as well, especially December, December’s actually quite full, uh, even midweek, January, there’s a few midweek ones, and then we also have some European, um, cyclists, [00:22:00] Smaller groups, but they, they book midweek.

So it’s basically a weekend. Uh uh, yeah. So I would say we full 40 weekends of the year and give or take about 10 other functions to the year. But when we’re full, it’s 80 to 100 people. So it’s because we can add more tents. So it’s actually, oh, it’s a nice, nice full capacity over weekends, which covers, makes up for the quiet week.

Cara Ciszmadia: Yeah, no doubt. 

Ruben: And as you talk about marketing strategy, I’m sure the zebras are a big hit. So I don’t know, I don’t know where one gets zebras, but, uh, if you have a. Yeah, you have a good zebra guy. 

Richard Cherry: No, you can, I can send you one. 

Ruben: I’ll take two. 

Cara Ciszmadia: We’re straight from South Africa. 

Richard Cherry: No, we actually, we actually increased, we are increasing the variety of games.

So we did a new game fence this last month. Um, just [00:23:00] finished the gate today. So people do, and we’ve actually started marketing in England and Germany. I think they call it destination weddings. And, and we’ve actually had a few people who’s flown in with their guests to come and get married in Africa. So yeah, the idea is, you know, get more animals and, you know, they can market the place for me.

Cara Ciszmadia: That’s a sales pitch. 

Richard Cherry: My Insta Zebra. 

Cara Ciszmadia: Nice. 

Yeah, that’s a great strategy. Amazing. Thanks. I appreciate it, Richard, for your insight. The event approach is always, you know, I think those who take it on, I always admire them because it feels daunting. So, I applaud you. Um, so, Alex, I might shift over to you. I have in my notes here, uh, Blamping.

Alex Allred: Correct? 

Cara Ciszmadia: On a waterfall. 

Alex Allred: On a waterfall? 

Cara Ciszmadia: On a waterfall. [00:24:00] 

Near a waterfall. 

Alex Allred: Near what? Well, so we’re located near uh, Chimney Rock State Park and Lake Lure, so there’s a lot of waterfalls in the area, but we’re not, you know, Not directly on one. We do have like a nice big pond and a creek. It’s a very, um, it’s a nice piece of property, but I’m not aware of any waterfalls. 

Sounds great tho. 

Cara Ciszmadia: Right. Um, so I guess, similar question that I had for Richard, and I feel like this answer typically kind of comes, or is fairly similar where you kind of work with the natural surroundings to the best of your ability and so choosing kind of, um, Where you get to build a business like this is not always, uh, we don’t have a ton of choice about it, but, but utilizing the, uh, natural surroundings that we’re blessed with in those areas is generally the strategy.

I’m assuming that’s the same for you. 

Alex Allred: Yeah, for sure. I mean, when we were looking for property, we really started with, um, [00:25:00] just the idea to do one or two as a kind of a proof of concept. And so we started with working with Pacific domes. We did our first one, which is a 30 foot dome, which is about 700 square feet.

And, um, we wanted to buy something that was close to where people were already traveling. Um, So, like I said, Lake Lure, Chimney Rock, it’s a destination in our, in our area, so it’s a state park and it attracts a lot of visitors already, so we were wanting to build a back to nature kind of experience with the idea of luxury, privacy, uh, and some novelty, you know, so we looked at yurts and, um, you know, domes, shipping containers, so as a builder, I’m a general contractor, I wanted to build something unique, so tree houses, all that, that type of thing.

We settled on Pacific domes because we Like their product and I didn’t see anything else like that around here so the idea for us was to build a dome but then to Outfit it with plumbing with air conditioning. We have king sized beds so it’s kind of a five star hotel room in the woods was kind of our [00:26:00] Thing we were shooting for so we built one and then then this was back in 2019 and it was very successful We built another one on our property and then people started reaching out We had a couple of videos that we released I don’t know if anyone knows Levi Kelly.

He’s a YouTuber who he visits all unique Airbnbs around the country And so he came out and did a video for us and that kind of kind of blew up Filled up our you know, our reservation our bookings But also a lot of people started reaching out for consulting and so we also help teach people and guide people through the process of zoning and permits and you know how to work with your local county to Um, to get a canvas structure like this permitted like a, like a dwelling so that you can put plumbing and, you know, it turns out people like showers and flushing toilets, that type of thing.

So that’s kind of our little niche. That’s, that’s, um, that’s how we got started. 

Cara Ciszmadia: So, yeah, well, and I’ll be honest that the, the permitting part was one of my questions on my list. Um, it’s a significant challenge. For the majority of [00:27:00] my members up here who are exploring those, uh, soft walled structures, uh, getting permitting and things like that, to, to really make them luxurious can be really challenging in a lot of the counties up here.

Certainly some areas of the country are… Maybe more kind of tourism minded. And so they’re a little bit more, uh, functional on that end, but I, did you experience initial hurdles with that or were you embraced? 

Alex Allred: Yeah, a hundred percent. I mean, they, they told me no, like 10 times, but I’m kind of stubborn and persistent.

So. Um, we purchased the land, we had a plan in place, and we met with the county multiple times with the, first of all, you start with zoning, obviously. Um, but then you have, we have what’s called Environmental Health Department here, and they’re the ones who oversee, like, the well and septic system. Uh, we brought, uh, bought a piece of property that already had a well and septic system in place.

And so, um, after about five months of meeting with all the [00:28:00] different departments and, um, providing some engineering documents and then just, um, you know, finding solutions, I really, I just didn’t take no for an answer. I kept going, coming back to him and said, hey, hey guys, I’m sure there’s a solution here.

What if we hired an engineer to certify the R value? So, for example, um, we had to do that because the, um, even with the winter liners and, you know, there’s a lot of different manufacturers, if anyone’s checked into that, I’m sure you’ve seen there’s, there’s, and certainly more have popped up since we started.

But even with the winter liners, you’re not going to reach what the code requirements are for a traditional structure. That doesn’t mean you can’t do it, that just means you need to get an engineer involved, somebody with a stamp, somebody with some like HVAC credentials to kind of evaluate the structure, make recommendations on the heating and cooling that’s required.

And then if you, um, you know, hire an engineer, get a stamp, that’s usually the solution. You can pretty much build anything you want, but you have to get the right people with the right credentials involved. And if they stamp it and take the professional liability for it, then usually the County is, is happy, but that’s.

To answer your question, yes, many hurdles, many [00:29:00] times, and so I just kept knocking on doors and saying, well, hey, can I talk with, uh, can I talk, can I speak to the manager, please? So I actually kind of escalated up to, um, you know, folks who make decisions and then eventually once they saw that we were, um, you know, conscientious, we’re trying to do things the right way, they began to work with us a little more, and typically that’s what I’ve found.

Um, You know across the country because like I said people started reaching out to us through our through our YouTube and everything and We we kind of help help people speak the language of their county so that they can overcome some of these hurdles But yes, yes, it’s zoning is is zoning building department all of those things that’s actually Probably the biggest challenge for people, um, building them actually becomes simple after you, after you get the approvals, so.

Cara Ciszmadia: Agreed. I’m curious then, so, uh, do your units stay? Up all year round, you don’t [00:30:00] dismantle anything? 

Alex Allred: Yeah, no, so for us, we’re building it as a, as a house. So from the county’s point of view, it’s something that people could live in full time. So it’s on a concrete foundation. Like I said, heat and air conditioning, we’re connected to the power grid.

So we have an electrical panel, just like a house would, because we’ve got a hot tub. We have air conditioning. So we’re using more power. We’re using. Um, it’s definitely not a primitive, uh, setup. It has, uh, you know, a full electrical panel and it has cooking, you know, it’s everything that you would need, you, uh, you know, you could actually live there full time.

So, yes, to answer your question, it’s, it’s all year round. Uh, in the wintertime, we’re kind of at elevation and we’re in the mountains, so we do get, we get snow and, um, quite a variety, but, uh, we’ve got these pellet stoves, which is, it’s like a wood burning stove, but you pour bags of pellets, you may have seen, like, a barbecue setup that’s a little, uh, you dump a big, um, bag of pellets in there and it filters through, so you get a nice, um, um, actual [00:31:00] wood burning fire, but you just kind of push a button so the guests don’t have to actually start a fire.

They can just push a button and it creates a nice fire, keeps everything nice and toasty in there. And so yes, we’re open, open all year round. That’s lovely. 

Cara Ciszmadia: I know some operators who are jealous about that. I was just talking to a gentleman who’s trying to pick structures and he is dealing with significant snow load and so that’s a big factor in his choice, given that he would like to try to extend his operating season into the winter.

Um, so that’s, I know, probably, I spend a ton of time in conversations with operators on a daily basis, and the permitting stuff is consistent and regularly one of our biggest hurdles that we see come up for members. Um, and, uh, you know, I think it’s, there’s so many variables depending on where you’re located and what the climate’s like and all of those things that impact that stuff, but then also, [00:32:00] obviously, health regulation and things like those things, it’s.

It’s, it’s a challenge, um, but I’ve, we are starting to see, I think, a shift in it and then really embracing, um, glamping specifically and in a lot of properties up here and I know we’re behind most of the other places in the world, but, um, things are catching up for us here in 

Canada, for sure. 

Ruben: Now, how did you guys do over the summer too?

Because I know in certain climates where it can be a bit humid, you know, even with a mini split and you got the insulation in there, you know, there’s a few heat waves that come in and it can be tough. You could, you could be blaring the AC, but then, you know, I know during the fall and the winter time.

Obviously, the season starts to pick up and temperatures start to cool down, but, um, you know, how was the kind of July, August, you know, how did everything perform? 

Alex Allred: Yeah, so they definitely get hot. What I would [00:33:00] say is if, um, if you have some tree cover, that’s ideal. Um, so if it’s out in the, if a dome is out in the open, you’re going to be fighting that, uh, for sure.

And definitely don’t orient the big bay window if you’ve seen these structures. The Bay Window. Don’t, don’t point that directly at the sun. That’s, you know, you can orient it away from that. That helps a little bit. We also have a couple of sun shades, so those big shade structures that we’ve built, um, and we do have a mini split.

I also have just a regular plug in off the shelf model that I use for the, you know, hottest times of the year, so that helps a little bit. Um, with the winter liner, they do, they do better. I think it’s still… In terms of R value, if anyone knows, it’s still maybe around R8 to 10. So it’s not R30 like a normal house would be.

So yeah, you’re going to be fighting that during the hottest, uh, you know, midday sun, but I’ve also found that our, you know, we, we try and be upfront with people on our listing so they know what to expect and a lot of, we’re, we’re mostly Airbnb, um, so that’s the platform that, that we use the most. And, [00:34:00] and if you write a good description, people know what to expect.

We also find that typically during that time, people are out exploring, they’re hiking, they’re doing things, maybe, um, you know, checking out the area, so people can head out during the midday if they’re uncomfortable and then head back at night. But yes, they do get hot. 

Cara Ciszmadia: Yay for tents. Those are the best. Um, that’s exciting.

I love hearing from operators and I… My favorite part of having the best job in the world! Uh, so I appreciate you guys time today. Um, I, I’m curious, Ruben, do you have any kind of exciting association updates, fun things, education opportunities for operators, things like that coming up? 

Ruben: No, I think we’re just excited for, for the show and I think it’s been fun to see how everybody’s shaped up over this summer and, and in different countries, not only just here, um, you know, [00:35:00] stateside, but Every year is a little bit different.

And, and, you know, Zach, you know, better than anybody, just the change in development, I don’t even want to call it speed, but cadence in a way where how people are choosing products or projects and investments and expansions, you know, it really is a year by year now versus, you know, in the middle of COVID, it was obviously a completely different speed.

So it’s been, I think we’re still about a month away from truly understanding how everybody How everything kind of shook out, you know, across the board, across the, the, the states in particular, um, for, you know, just, just the pure basic numbers, right, between the ADR and occupancy and, and how that affects everybody’s mindsets for, you know, what does next year look like?

Right? Because, um, I think a few years ago there was a level of what a plan could look like. And then, and then now I think this summer and going into a strong [00:36:00] fall, you know, Uh, will really help us understand what the next three years could look like. I think this year really puts a nice flag in the sand of, right, what are we doing over the next three years?

Because anything that we do this year from an operational standpoint, from a business standpoint, you know, we had to start cooking that two years ago, right? So um, it’ll be interesting to see what this, call it end of October, where everything looks What everything looks like and then as everybody reloads, really, right, even if you have a busy as an operator at November, December, January, because you can be open and stay open because of your, your climate and your environment, people are still using that time to say, All right, what’s the plan?

What’s next? What are we doing? How did this last six months inform our next three years? Um, so yeah, Zach, I don’t know if you’re seeing anything in particular, but I think there’s a very interesting part of the year of Alright, things are, the [00:37:00] chips are about to fall, people will take that information, and then start making the best decisions possible, and, and there might be some early indicators, but I think that end of October becomes a very interesting time of year for, for everyone.

Zach: Yeah, we’re, we’re definitely seeing a ramp up. Um, I think we’ve gone under contract for eight new resort developments in the last probably six weeks. Um, which I think we always kind of pick up around this time of year. Um, and there’s a lot of reasons for that, but I think, you know, the main peak season people, existing operators are busy, they’re, they’re running their business, they’re taking care of their guests.

And so now they’re kind of getting into that cool down phase and saying, okay, what do we need to try to get done Um, I think for a lot of new ground up, you know, everybody wants to break ground in spring, which in the U S is going to be. Kind of in that March, April range. And so when you back up from [00:38:00] that, the time that it takes for permitting and planning and zoning and kind of getting some of your entitlements done, you know, they said, well, when, when should we start?

Well, yesterday, now, um, So we’re, we’re definitely busy. I’m actually going to be out, uh, kind of near Alex, um, fly out tomorrow, uh, to start a new, new project in South Carolina. Um, and we definitely have a lot of work in that sort of Asheville, North Carolina, South Carolina corridor. Um, but, you know, to your, your point, Reuben, I think, um, The best analogy, and I, where I live in Kansas City, um, we have some acreage outside of town and, um, one of, one of the things my wife and I wanted to do, you know, someday when we had some land was to plant a vineyard.

And the adage that they tell you when you plant grapevines is the first year they sleep, the second year they creep, the third year they leap. And, [00:39:00] you know, it held very true that first year you plant everything and it just looks like sticks in the ground. You’re thinking, how is this ever going to become anything?

And then the second year, you start to see a little bit of growth. And then that third year, you’re cutting stuff back, you’re pruning constantly. You’re just trying to stay on top of it so it doesn’t get out of control. Um, and I feel like that’s where the industry is. I feel like, you know, there’s kind of a pause, there was some trepidation, especially through COVID.

Um… And, and last year we started to see a little bit of a creep, and, and this year we’re really feeling that leap, where there’s a lot more people trying to get into the space, I’m, I’m really excited about all these new vendors, these new people that are, are making units, or selling units, or producing units.

Um, you know, it seems like every week I have a phone call with another new person I haven’t heard of that is doing something incredible that I’m really excited about. Um, and so I think that leap this year [00:40:00] is really driving innovation. Um, I think it’s, it’s bringing together a lot more investment, whether that’s, you know, banking, traditional lending, or institutional capital.

I think there’s… You know, the, the days of people just really being unfamiliar with this, uh, and what it was, um, are, are starting to kind of. I agree with Wayne a bit, um, where, where this is now an established industry and confidence is there. Um, and, and I agree, I think seeing the numbers this year’s, this, this operating season is going to be kind of our first actual real post COVID year, right?

To, we, we definitely saw some boosts due to COVID and people getting outside, um, wanting to connect with nature, wanting to spend more time with their families. We, you know, our industry benefited hugely from that, that shift. Um, and I think now where things have kind of shook out a little bit, right? We’ve reached a point of stabilization, [00:41:00] uh, where folks are resuming a new normal.

Um, and so I think this year is really going to, going to be key to kind of seeing what is that post COVID look like, uh, for the glamping industry. And, and I agree with making some of those projections about, um, what do we need to do now to prepare for, for two to three years from now, which is, Just part of what we do, shameless plug, I know we had a lot of that discussion on, on permitting and planning and zoning and navigating building codes and, um, you know, those are all things that we help our clients do.

Cara Ciszmadia: I’m curious, just from this group, this is top of mind for me right now, as we’re at CCRVC level, the association is, um, Working pretty diligently on a focus on sustainability and tourism specific to outdoor hospitality, and we’re providing, you know, some education [00:42:00] opportunities and things like that to members.

Um, I’m curious, I feel like the glamping industry itself is This has kind of inherently had this, it has this base in sustainability, you know, you typically see product and suppliers really prioritize it. And so I feel like it’s always been a foundational part of the glamping portion of the outdoor hospitality industry.

Um, do, do either our couple of operators or Ruben and Zach, do you see operators? Either consumers or operators making business choices or purchase choices, uh, with sustainability in mind, or is that still kind of off to the side for right? 

Ruben: I mean, Mike, I’d be curious to see what you guys think. And I think that it’s a pretty broad term, right?

Because [00:43:00] sustainability, um, you know, off grid, um, there’s, I think, two things that we see the most. And one is. A lot of people really like the idea, right, of being able to be sustainable, be off grid, be renewable, be whatever it is. Um, it’s hard. It’s just a hard thing to really do well, and even do well in a way that also helps the customer experience.

Have people done it well? Has it been a priority? For developers and operators and, and can they walk away pointing to that saying, look at what we’ve created and look, sure, 100%. And I think it’s a good thing, obviously, with the remoteness of many properties with the challenge of saying, hey, here’s The demographic that we’re trying to attract.

Here’s the AVR that we’re trying to charge. And then here’s the experience that we’re providing. [00:44:00] It’s often hard to line all those things up. It’s not very cookie cutter. And I think a lot of people do come into the space saying, we want this, we want this, we want this. I think it’s a whole other conversation about actually executing it in a way that checks everybody’s boxes.

It’s not, it’s not simple. 

Cara Ciszmadia: Agreed.

I couldn’t agree more. 

Alex Allred: I’ll just add on to that. So one of the things we’re doing is potentially doing some solar. And I actually have a buddy of mine who’s in that business and I invited him out to our property. Um, it’s still quite, quite expensive to do a solar setup. Particularly with what we have because we have air conditioning, we have a refrigerator, a hot tub.

I think on some of the more primitive builds that we’ve like helped consult on, I think you can do it at a maybe a smaller scale but when you start looking at a large, large scale solar system and some of the products are still pretty, pretty um, you know, cash. It just takes a [00:45:00] lot of money to, to do that and I do think, I agree with you Ruben, there’s the idea of doing something and there’s the practical cost of it and um…

And the timing that it takes as well. Um, so yeah, it’s always, everybody’s having to strike a balance between turning a profit and, you know, investing in something. Um, maybe some, I don’t know what the carbon exchange is on some zebras, but Richard, maybe, um. Do you have, can you weigh in on that? 

Zach: Sorry. 

Richard Cherry: No, but I can just, a comment my dad always made, is he said, if he could budget, he would do nothing in the world.

You set up a glamping tent, don’t budget, just start. Because you’re not going to get the budget right, number one. Uh, and um, and what people don’t appreciate is that, it’s money spent on what you can’t see. You know, at Cherry Glamping they come and say, oh, it’s just a tent. But it’s so rich, it’s power, it’s water, everything got laid up and I’ve also [00:46:00] been asked to consult and everybody just runs after about half an hour after me telling them that what they see is not just a tent.

Um, and especially, I looked at your website Alex, it’s beautiful by the way, and you know to build something that remote where you are, well I don’t know if you’re remote. But, but yeah, I mean, there’s no highway that can drop off anything to your place. It, you know, it’s just all adds up to, to make it more expensive.

Cara Ciszmadia: Costs. 

Richard Cherry: Costs. 

Alex Allred: Yeah.

Ruben: Looking at those costs too, I mean, just piggybacking off of that, I mean, a very common theme that we’re seeing now this year that I think will affect the development moving forward is there was a higher level of comfort three years ago for people to say, buy the property, develop if I’m an investor as well.

And hey, if you miss this, and to Zach’s point, you know, everybody wants to, uh, open up at a certain date, which means they need to develop at a certain date. That’s best case scenario, right? [00:47:00] Things happen. It happens and all of a sudden you can miss your window and now you’re a year behind. And that, that’s huge when especially you put together a performer that needs to hit a certain milestones, right?

And so I think a sensitive planning, you know, mile, kind of a theme that we’re seeing a bunch of is, is just really shovel ready, right? Like we, we can’t, we can’t take on that risk anymore of one year turning into three because, you know, we have to, we got to get up and running. As quickly as possible. So looking through the lens of risk mitigation by time, what time does it take to actually take your first booking?

A lot of the money now is looking at that as a huge sensitivity point. What is it re what is really your opening date? And what is the risks that are in front of us to actually get that up and running where, you know, a few years ago, [00:48:00] people aren’t in that sense. Hey, we missed a season. Not that big of a deal.

We’ll be open for two or three months now. People are very much, I want things to be open now. I need things to be shovel ready as soon as possible. And, you know, driving distance to a city center or this other stuff. It’s very important, but really this time to open and time to first booking, it’s been interesting.

That’s been a very focal part of a lot of, at least on the investment side, the conversation, which obviously, you know, makes sense why, you know, you’d rather be open here in three months versus three years. It’s just not always that straightforward. 

Richard Cherry: You have to take your first booking is what I always say.

Otherwise you will be never finished. . Mm-hmm. , you know, you can go on like your dome, Alex. I mean, you can just continue building and building and feeling, oh, I need more plants. I need more trees. I need more of this. More zebras. I need more [00:49:00] zebras. I need to do this. And, and what I find is take a set, a realistic date and take a booking.

Because you will be finished if you’ve got it, but if you’re not, you’re just going to say, ah, you know, give us another month. I was, yeah, I just want to do more before I open. And, uh, yeah, there has to be a line in the sand because then you actually finish. That’s what I found. Yeah, no doubt. 

Zach: Yeah, to kind of build on the, uh, not to backtrack too much, but to build on the sustainability discussion, I think, um, You know, we, we come at this from a little bit different perspective, uh, being architects.

Sustainability has been a big push in our industry for, you know, over a decade now. And I, I do think that, um, it doesn’t always have to be a big move, you know, it doesn’t have to be a 100, 000 solar array install. Um, you know, a lot of the things that, that we [00:50:00] work with clients, operators. To do especially, and I, we’re seeing this, the shift, especially with the, the eco resort focus, um, which is kind of an emerging trend in the industry.

It’s not about that one big move or something, you know, that’s a huge commitment. It’s all the little things, um, you know, examples I can give, uh, shifting all your, your cutlery, your, if you’re doing F& B on site. All your disposable, um, you know, forks and spoons and knives and your containers to biodegradable, natural, um, you know, there’s, there’s bamboo cutlery that you can get, um, your soaps in your showers, you know, using biodegradable, natural, non chemical.

Um, you know, products in, in, in some of those applications. And I think, you know, there, there are things that are smaller, that are easy to do. There are things that augment the guest experience. Um, You know, when someone stays with [00:51:00] you and they’re in the shower and they’re looking at this, this great soap that you provided for them, and you’re finding out that this comes from this, this local farm over here that raises goats and they make, make their own soaps, right?

Um, it, it adds to that authenticity of the guest experience. So I think there certainly are things, you know, big, bold moves and steps you can take from the sustainability perspective. But I also think that, you know, everybody has to start somewhere, right? So it’s making some of these smaller shifts, um, and maybe it’s something you’re doing already.

Um, you know, I think the, the bigger, broader scale, you know, we’re starting to see the industry as a whole embrace that, um, you know, we’re working with manufacturers that. That are bringing bamboo furniture in line. There’s actually some big advantages from the import, uh, you know, tariff perspective on embracing sustainability with some of those products.

Um, we’re seeing a shift, um, to some off grid units and some off grid solutions that have a [00:52:00] lower or minimal impact on a site, but still provide a premium luxury guest experience. Um, and, and I think. You know, for those that are familiar with the building and trades piece, um, the, the first step we had was lead, right?

And as, as some way to like rate a, a site or rate a building for how sustainable it is. Um, and that, that process has certainly evolved over time and it needed to, you know, you used to get lead credits for putting in l e d lighting in your building and, and today I don’t know that you can hardly buy lighting that’s not l e d, um, unless it’s, you know, something purely decorative.

Um, and so the. The ratings came out, the industry responded, manufacturers responded, and sustainability has made leaps and bounds in the building industry. Um, and we’re starting to see that creep in a little bit to the hospitality industry. Um, I saw an announcement this week on a, a new classification for dark skies compliance.[00:53:00] 

Um, and there’s, there’s some imperfectness in it, but again, we have to start somewhere. Um, and so being able to get your, your glamping resort or your outdoor hospitality, uh, resort. Certified under dark skies that, you know, that’s, again, it could be part of your marketing, part of your branding. Um, and it’s, it’s definitely protecting your guest experience.

So I think we’re starting to see this industry evolve and embrace some of those concepts. And it’s, it’s exciting. 

Cara Ciszmadia: Yeah, I completely agree. I think, you know, like I said, it’s, it’s come to our attention because it’s, uh, there’s, there’s a consumer, uh, expectation for that, and, and it can be very difficult for operators to balance that with, like Ruben touched on, that still providing that luxury, incredible experience, finding the right, Um, the exact right potion to achieve all of those things can be really challenging.

So, [00:54:00] um, you know, I think it’s interesting that the consumers are, are seeking it and, and considering it as a factor when they’re, you know, looking for places to stay. And, you know, that’s obviously always the best driver of, of change in terms of operations. So if you guys are submitting those requests, it’s time to look at it, but, uh, yeah, it’s, I’m excited to see where things go specific to our members and campgrounds and, uh, our operators up here starting to pay attention to it, um, as it becomes kind of more sought after from our guests.

We definitely have, uh, some, some work to do on, on the big things, but that, that little stuff, I agree with you, Zach. This can be simple to implement and make significant. I think there’s a lot of impact or change on consumer perception and all of those [00:55:00] things, um, that will get you off on the right foot.

And, you know, I think we have, we have some, some kind of policy driven expectation around it too. There’s sustainability, uh, policy coming down from our federal and provincial governments that impacts operation expectations and requirements for us up here too. So it’s a very timely conversation for us and our members and, and, um, We’ll continue to have it, I’m sure, long into the future, but I’m keen to, excited to see it opening up, specific to outdoor hospitality, in the next couple weeks, as we have our education events coming out for members.

What are we at here for time? Look at us go! It’s almost a whole hour. Um, anything else from anybody? Anything cool or exciting we haven’t talked about that I need to know, besides? We’re getting some zebras. I cannot wait. 

Zach: I’ll share one thing that’s kind of, I guess, somewhat exciting and somewhat related [00:56:00] to the sustainability conversation.

Um, I actually had a really interesting phone call, um, about a week ago with a software company, um, that specializes in, uh, management for mainly the hotel industry. Um, they have a software platform that allows them to… kind of manage and control different things in a hotel room. Um, so like your, your keypad or your card access for your door, uh, your access controls on the hotel, uh, the thermostat on the wall, the lighting in the room.

Um, all of these things can be controlled, uh, remotely and, and set. And we’re looking at trying to integrate them into some outdoor hospitality units. Um, and, and offer that to where, you know, if you have, uh, 40 tents on your site, um, that as people book [00:57:00] that, the, the key codes to access the doors to get into those units are automatically generated by your booking software.

The text messages get sent out, um, you know, an hour, two hours before those guests are scheduled to arrive. The AC kicks on, um, to make sure that that unit is cooled down or the heat kicks on to make sure it’s warm enough when they get there. Um, there’s, there’s also a tremendous amount of feedback and sensors that we can start to take advantage of.

A couple of the things that were discussed, there’s a, there’s a door sensor. So if your guests are there and they have the AC cranked and then they open up those big doors to go out and sit on the deck and they leave the doors open, it will turn off the AC, um, because it, it knows that the doors are open.

Um, there are, are noise sensors to where if, if somebody’s getting a little rowdy, a little rambunctious, um, and it, it rises above a certain decibel level. Um, that it can actually [00:58:00] notify your, your property manager, Hey, you know, we, we had some noise, um, in, in this area. And then they can head that off before it becomes a problem for other guests on the site, um, or before somebody calls, you know, the local authorities.

Um, and it was just, it was really interesting to me, um, to see some of this technology that’s out there, um, and then start thinking about how can we. How can we utilize this in the outdoor hospitality space? Um, how do we make some of, some of these platforms that, that are, exist, that are working, that are deployed in, you know, tens of thousands of different hotel rooms around the country?

Um, how can we start integrating this into the world of outdoor hospitality? And, and kind of taking some of these glamping units to that next level, so. 

Cara Ciszmadia: Yeah, it, that, it’s fascinating to me to, I mean, the sky really is the limit, always. Um, our [00:59:00] industry is so good at kind of harnessing good ideas, unique, cool ideas, no question.

Amazing! Well, on this note, I anticipate seeing, well, half of you at least. Alex, are you going to come to the glamping show? 

Alex Allred: You know… Good! I would love to, I’m scheduled, I have three trips in October and one of them is to another conference, uh, like an Airbnb conference, so I won’t make this one, but I would love to meet you guys in person sometime.

Cara Ciszmadia: Yeah, glad to make sure it’s worth that. Richard, you should make the flight all this way in the Western Cape.

Oh, he’s muted, shame. 

Richard Cherry: I’m muted, sorry, I’m tempted. Yeah. I’ll also skip this, I’ll also skip, uh, this year. 

Cara Ciszmadia: Bring the zebras next year. I’ll bring them. 

Zach: You wouldn’t be the only South African in attendance. 

Cara Ciszmadia: Definitely not. Yeah, I met a couple last year too. Yeah, it’s great. 

Richard Cherry: Were there a few last year? 

Cara Ciszmadia: Yeah.

Zach: Quite a few.

Richard Cherry: Yeah, [01:00:00] because it’s, it’s been, glamping has kicked off in South Africa. There’s in many ways and many shapes and sizes all over. It’s really, I think it’s worldwide, but definitely, uh, going crazy. 

Cara Ciszmadia: You certainly have to go to the natural landscapes for it. And all the 

zebras. 

Zach: We had a donkey last year. Secret Creek brought their donkey to their booth.

Cara Ciszmadia: Yeah,.

Zach: We just we need to get on the Bush Tech guys and tell them they need zebras. 

Cara Ciszmadia: Zebras. Next. The next thing. We’ll tell them. 

Richard Cherry: The Bush Tech guys from South Africa? 

Cara Ciszmadia: Yes. 

Zach: Yes. 

Richard Cherry: Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. I know them. I’ll tell them that’s what they are. Yeah. 

Cara Ciszmadia: We’ll see you in a Zebra in a couple of weeks.

Richard Cherry: I’ll bring you a Zebra Bulltongue, unfortunately. 

Cara Ciszmadia: Ah, that’s funny. Okay, gentlemen, I appreciate your time so [01:01:00] very much. I’m grateful to have had this conversation with you as my little segue back into this old world. I do miss doing the show. It’s always wonderful to touch base with so many incredibly…

knowledgeable industry individuals and I look forward to connecting with all of you in the future and certainly in Denver in a few weeks. 

Richard Cherry: Wonderful. 

Cara Ciszmadia: Lovely. Have a wonderful day guys. Thanks again. 

Richard Cherry: Cheers. 

Zach: Take care. Thanks, everyone. 

For joining us for this episode of MC Fireside Chats with your host, Brian Searl.

Have a suggestion for a show idea? Want your campground or company in a future episode? Email us at hello at moderncampground. com. Get your daily dose of news from moderncampground. com. And be sure to join us next week for more insights into the fascinating world of outdoor hospitality.[01:02:00]