MC Fireside Chats – October 30th, 2024

This is MC Fireside Chats, a weekly show featuring conversations with thought leaders, entrepreneurs, and outdoor hospitality experts who share their insights to help your business succeed. Hosted by Brian Searle, the founder and CEO of Insider Perks. Empowered by insights from Modern Campground, the most innovative news source in the industry.

Brian Searl:

Welcome everybody to another episode of MC Fireside Chats. My name is Brian Searl with Insider Perks. Super excited to be here with you for our kind of fifth week, weird, odd episode where we have no recurring guests, but it happens to be that we have that extra Wednesday in the month. So excited to welcome a whole panel of special guests here who are going to introduce us to their companies, talk a little bit about, well, whatever we decide we’re going to talk about. Who knows? I don’t prep for the show. Hopefully they are. So we got Ken Barber from Wild Haven Glamping. We got Paul from Eric Sell. Anthony from Eric Sell. And Leslie, I’m going to forget your company because it’s not in my little window. I’m so sorry. Signature RV Resorts by Zeeman. Literally, I go meeting to meeting, and I don’t even know how I survive because I’m very old, as you can see. Look at this gray. No hair. So that’s my excuse, Leslie. Hopefully you’ll forgive me. I’m going to briefly go around and just let everybody briefly introduce themselves. Tell us a little bit about your company and then we’ll kind of see where we can go from there. Do you want to let Leslie start? Because I almost spelled that, didn’t I? It’s not a good start, guys. We’ll let Leslie start because I forgot her company. Sure.

Leslie Taylor-Rharbi:

So my name is Leslie Taylor-Rharbi. I’m Director of Operations for Zeeman Homes and Resorts, particularly the signature side of our RV resorts. Zeeman is based in Chicago. We’ve been in business since 1983. We’re family owned, and our portfolio is primarily the Midwest. northeast a little bit and then of course southeast and Florida is my portfolio. We started Zeeman Signature Resorts roughly about five years ago. We’re always looking for great opportunity purchasing and growth within the company and With the way that pricing was, and limited properties, properties being purchased quickly, we created our own opportunity. We thought our viewers were ready for more luxurious experience, and so started doing developments. And we design, build, develop, and then build the business from there. And we’re on our fourth one today.

Brian Searl:

Awesome. Excited to have you here, Leslie. I’ve definitely heard of Zeeman. Just didn’t connect the name, Leslie and Zeeman, but excited to dive into some of your resorts, see what you have going on. There’s been a lot of, as we have talked on the show about, tons of development that’s been going on in the industry as a whole. Obviously, lots in Florida, lots in Texas, but excited to hear about your resorts. I do have one question before we go and introduce our other guests. Since you are, you said you’re overseeing Florida, right? Do you have a sense of what can we expect from the election or which way is it leaning?

Leslie Taylor-Rharbi:

My crystal ball is very cloudy right now. That’s a bit of a wild card, I think.

Brian Searl:

All right, Leslie. Well, that’s the only reason we had you on the show. So it’s disappointing, but we’ll talk about something else. Anthony or Paul, who wants to introduce Airxce? Go ahead, Anthony.

Anthony Wollschlager:

Thanks, Paul. Airxce is a manufacturer and distributor of various components that are in an RV. So things such as air conditioners, water heaters, furnaces, appliances, roofing. We really have a broad product range that you’ll find on RVs across the country and even into the European space as well.

Brian Searl:

Okay, so this is like the camper who’s like, I’m enjoying camping and it’s because of Airxce basically, because they’re not outside in the tent. Correct.

Anthony Wollschlager:

Correct. We like to provide comfort for those folks in RVs for sure.

Brian Searl:

Okay, so yeah, they just maybe don’t know that it’s thanks to you, but it is. Well, we like to think that, yes. Well, I’m willing to stipulate that. There’s no other guests here to dispute it, so we can just roll with it this week, right? And Paul, your role at Air Excel?

Paul Craven:

Yes, I’m the Chief Revenue Officer for Airxce. I work with Anthony every day. We’re based, I’m not sure if Anthony mentioned it or not, we’re based in Elkhart, Indiana. So in the hub of where all these RVs are built. So we’re one of the larger suppliers to the industry. So to Anthony’s point, we make parts and pieces and sell items directly into the manufacturers who make All the RVs we see in the campgrounds and in the nice resorts that Leslie’s creating.

Brian Searl:

Awesome. Excited to have you here and dive into kind of what some of those things are and where we can see them and find them. And it’ll be an interesting conversation, I think. And then Ken from Wild Haven Glamping, last but not least, sir.

Ken Barber:

Yeah. Hi. Hi, everyone. I’m one of the owners of the Wild Haven Glamping brand. We’re about a five-year-old business. We’ve got two locations right now. We started our first one in Sonoma County. just about an hour north of San Francisco. And we’re right there on the Russian River, surrounded by vineyards. We focus on canvas tents and some very small tiny home cabins. So we don’t have any RVs or any do-it-yourself camping. And our second location opened up just this year. It’s just outside of Yosemite in a town called Mariposa. Again, big tents and tiny home cabins. And our angle is, you know, very careful blend of comfort and hotel amenities and kind of not too much of either. We don’t want to sanitize the nature experience. We don’t want to give them, you know, too much luxury where they don’t really immerse themselves into nature. So we’re trying to more of like a middle market glamping provider. And we’re looking to expand right now.

Brian Searl:

All right, awesome. Thank you for being here, Ken. I think I want to start with Ken. And here’s my story. By the way, I just completely made this up in my head. But here’s my story. We’ll start with the people who are interested, like hotel guests who are just finding the outdoors for the first time. And maybe they’re going glamping. And then they realize they love the outdoors so much and the glamping experience that they’re going to go stay at a Zeeman resort, right? And then once they’re at the Zeeman resort, well, this resort is way too nice for the rig and model that I have. I’ve got to go get Airxce products. I have a better rig, right? So is that a logical path we can follow for the show or? Sure. Anyway, right? I mean, is anybody, I don’t know. Nobody’s ever really disagreed with me on the show when I’ve had a flow idea like that, which is either, I don’t know, anyway. So outside of San Francisco, is that a location behind you?

Ken Barber:

This is our Yosemite location. Yeah.

Brian Searl:

It’s stunning. Yes. Yes. Does it always look like that though? Um, it does that sunset time during the day in the not freezing cold winters.

Ken Barber:

Yeah. Yeah, no, it’s, it’s, um, it’s a beautiful spot. This was a ground up development for us. Our first one was actually an RV park that was closed and that we converted into, um, a glamping establishment. All the infrastructure was there. And then we took everything we learned from the first spot, and we got a piece of land, which is the shot behind me, 36 acres on a beautiful hillside, and put in all the infrastructure, put in all of the roads and the tents. And then this is really the highlight view behind me. It looks out over 2,000 acres of farmland, and we’re about an hour, about 45 minutes away from the national park.

Brian Searl:

So when you look at like, I mean, I think my first question here is like, we’ve obviously had a lot of people on the show who have developed glamping or getting into glamping. I just came from, were you at the glamping show in Colorado? I’ve been, I was there in 2019. Okay. So yeah, we just went that to that in October. You know and we see a lot of people who are obviously very excited to get into this business Many of them perhaps don’t realize how much is involved But they’re all excited anyway, it’s like Joe So I’m curious just as you’ve kind of you know your second resort. Let’s start you to like kind of back You know backwards so to speak with the things that you’ve learned the lessons you learn like obviously I think there’s a significant number of people in the United States and in Canada who if given the chance would say like sure I’ll take a piece of land by Yosemite National Park and Right. Like this is a big prime destination. Lots of people go there. So you’ve acquired this land you know, how do you What all is involved in that process from a lessons learned perspective from a, because it’s much harder than people I think realize it’s not.

Ken Barber:

Yeah. I was about to say that the answer I’m about to give may deter some people because it’s, it is very difficult, but I don’t want anyone listening to be deterred because it’s all, it’s all doable.

Brian Searl:

Some people to be deterred, the people who aren’t, don’t have the ambition. Right.

Ken Barber:

you’re going to have to be very patient and especially with inefficiencies and bureaucracy. But I mean, the biggest thing is, is everyone will say it is the permitting and the zoning. You’ve got to find the land that is zoned correctly. If you want to do it quickly, you don’t, it’s not a necessity. You can get on, you know, zoned land and then convert it. But we found this piece of property five years ago before we found our other, our other piece of property. It was zoned recreation. So we knew it was good. Then you have to go up to the permits. We thought the permits would only take about six to nine months, and they took about two years.

Brian Searl:

That’s what injured me, by the way. That’s why I just want a marketing company, because I have no patience for government.

Ken Barber:

Yes. And then we’re in California, and the agency that controls all glamping businesses and RV parks is inefficient, and they admit it, and they’re understaffed, and COVID hit them. And so we had to really negotiate and actually educate them on what we were doing. at first they said, okay, and, you know, additional one of your tents, the th even make any sense. Um, know that this is, this is you know, it’s just a, i just on a platform. Um, s are still a little gray, we had to go through all And then the construction happens after that once you get your building permits. And that’s its own tricky aspect because prices are inflated and contractors are in short supply. And I’m sure Leslie knows a lot about this. And then you’ve got to hire, you know, and then there’s challenges with the hiring and the labor market’s been very difficult. And then you need to develop your operations and make sure those don’t come out of the gate working ever. Um, and so there’s, you know, we opened in April and we’re still kind of, we just went through our first summer and we’re still trying to figure out what just happened.

Brian Searl:

My door is in 2009 and I’m still trying to figure out what just happened, sir. So, yeah.

Ken Barber:

So patience is very important, but it’s all doable. And yeah, spend a lot of time. Um, if you’re listening right now and get the right piece of land and make sure it’s, you know, and have some audits done and get some experts in to look at it. We did that, that really helped. Find some consultants and they gave us some good advice.

Brian Searl:

Do you feel like, and I know you said your first location was north of San Francisco, right? Yeah. Okay. And so maybe it’s similar, but do you feel like the expectation of a guest who is visiting Yosemite is either different or the same or more upscale perhaps is where I’m going than someone who maybe not? Isn’t coming to a 70 because you think of like that you hear the press for years about under canvas They’re developing like more luxury style outside in and around National Parks And so is there an expectation do you feel from a glamping perspective that this is ongoing glamping near National Park? It should be better than typical glamping. I don’t even know if we have a definition for that, but Brian it’s a good question.

Ken Barber:

We found that and I’m the head of marketing for our business as well. And I I I rolled up the same playbook from my first property to the second property, and I saw that demand, expectations demands were a little higher. We have a lot of European guests that come, German, Dutch, French. We have a lot of people from the East Coast, which we didn’t have at our Sonoma property. They’re traveling further, they’re spending more money. This is a once in a lifetime trip. Expectations are higher.

Brian Searl:

Are you playing to the luxury market with your property, generally speaking, or are you a bit deeper in what you would label yourself as?

Ken Barber:

I mentioned in the intro that we wanted to start out as more of a middle market. It’s a vague term because glamping is still developing, but we didn’t want to be too luxury because when you’re too luxury, you’re not as accessible and approachable. It limits the amount of people that can get outdoors, but you can’t be too at the lower end of the market, because then people don’t see the value of their over of a regular camping. So it’s a very careful blend to be in that middle area. And, you know, each provider does it a different way. When we opened the Yosemite property, we did things a little bit nicer than Sonoma, you know, wood framed on the inside of our cabins of our tents, excuse me, and beautiful views like this and invested in a little better infrastructure. The cabins were nicer with split AC units and big patios. And yes, we went upscale a little, but not to the point where we want to be under canvas, which is beautiful, beautiful businesses and great offerings, but they’re a little more restrictive in our opinion.

Brian Searl:

Do you have a sense of, well, actually, let me ask this before I, maybe it’s a silly question, but were you sold out all year being near Yosemite or?

Ken Barber:

We weren’t, we only started in about April because of back to permitting and zoning and construction. We got such a late start that people didn’t hear about us until about June. Um, so we weren’t, but we’re looking that way to next summer.

Brian Searl:

Okay. That’s good. Cause that was part of my question. Like, I mean, we’ve had a lot of people on this, you know, more, more so from the RV resorts and RV park sides who have seen kind of a softening in that mid tier market, whereas luxury has been fine. But I was just curious how you were straddling that line, but I don’t think you have enough data to answer that question yet, do you?

Ken Barber:

Yeah, yeah. But you are right that luxury, that’s what I’ve read too, is luxury has been able to weather the storm a little easier. You know, there’s always people with plenty of money that will pay for a unique experience and that people have been more, we’ve just seen people booking last minute more at this summer than any other summer. They’re holding onto their money a little more.

Brian Searl:

Booking booking windows are really interesting to me, but I won’t get off into that weird like I’m an AI person so I think it’s very interesting how AI agents are gonna end up choosing our dates for us for a vacation and So, but that’s a whole nother topic. I won’t bore you guys with Leslie do you want to move on to the signature real quick and can please like I’m sure I’ll have maybe some more questions for you And just like we talked about I just want to make sure we get to everybody here Um, so Leslie, uh, obviously her Zeeman, uh, you gave us your brief intro, um, you know, tell us what in your mind or, or maybe motto mission wise, right. Is, is really something that sets the Zeeman signature line apart.

Leslie Taylor-Rharbi:

I think the spec at which we’re building at, so. You know, in Florida, there’s that natural migration of people who come and vacation and then work a lifetime to retire here. And in their mind, they have that vision of what they’re expecting and what they’ve worked so hard for, or what holds family memories of coming down and visiting family and so on. And now it’s their turn. And so trying to, during the design process, deliver that fantasy, so to speak, or that vision that people want in making stuff lush from the landscape, making it feel Florida in color and theme and being tranquil, but yet offering all the level of activity that people would want to take advantage of, whether that’s… What about alligators?

Brian Searl:

That’s Florida, right? Like you need to…

Leslie Taylor-Rharbi:

Well, they’re there. They’re just in the lakes doing their thing while the guests are in the resort doing their thing. So, you know, we cohabitate. It’s okay. Go ahead.

Brian Searl:

I didn’t mean to interrupt you.

Leslie Taylor-Rharbi:

No, that’s okay. But we have multiple pickleball courts. So the surf was our third or second. And we have seven pickleball courts, three bocce ball courts, we have cornhole courts, 15,000 square foot clubhouse, lounges, pool bar. So we’re that higher end luxury and kind of redefining or taking the RVing experience kind of to the furthest degree. But I will say in doing that, it also has brought on a whole new set of expectations from seasoned RVers or new RVers, because now we’re in competition, if you will, with timeshares a hotel resort, and things of that nature. So expecting food and beverage, expecting a lot more service and convenience, and flexibility. And sometimes you got to be careful what you wish for, because it, it comes through. And it, it makes it a little bit more taxing on the team, and to have everybody as satisfied as you want them to be.

Brian Searl:

It is interesting the way, and I definitely want to talk more about Zeeman and Signature, but it is interesting what you say as a talking point of guest expectation, right? Because I think that you could even point to probably, I want to keep saying five years, but that’s almost on the precipice now of when COVID was and Right. Somehow I managed to get older and it manages to get a year behind us every year somehow. But so, you know, let’s say six or seven years ago, this was like certainly there were luxury resorts. There were people building properties like you’re building, but they weren’t anywhere close, I think, to the volume, scale and number that they are today. Is that fair?

Leslie Taylor-Rharbi:

That’s fair.

Brian Searl:

Yes. And I think that we’ve seen a majority of those be built in probably Florida, Texas, probably Arizona maybe but like obviously other states have a lot of construction too, but I think we hear at least I hear in the industry that Texas and Florida’s I don’t want to say overbuilt, but very populated with brand new developments that are luxury style, right? Right. So I think that’s interesting that you say that, because I think that guest expectations were probably vastly different from an RV resort in 2019 than they are of an RV resort in 2024 heading into 2025. In some ways, we kind of are doing it to ourselves, right? We’re building a Resort that’s higher in spec that’s higher in amenities that’s intended to give people that kind of dream retirement is what you’re saying Yeah, but then those people come down and maybe they’re like, oh, well, maybe my dream wasn’t good enough. What else can you do for me, right? So, how do you like how do you navigate that when you go resort to resort? Are there things that you take away that you’re saying? Well, I could do this better or differently or How does that work?

Leslie Taylor-Rharbi:

No, I think we’ve been a little bit more thoughtful in our marketing and in our language and what we’re committing to. And so we, sometimes when you use the word luxurious, it sets a tone. And so we kind of changed that to signature. where it’s on par with, and it’s amazing how the finest details can have a rippling effect in some way. And just kind of navigate and get you to where you’re going organically in the scheme of things. But I think, as Ken had mentioned, you know, sometimes you set out on a path and hopefully you have the platform to pivot and shift because you’ll need to be making those adjustments every step of the way because what sometimes is kind of thought about in concept when you’re actually executing or in the middle of it is not really going the direction you had hoped. So then you just kind of readjust and continue on your way and learn those lessons. And some of them are rather easy and some of them are a little painful. But as we go through the different resorts, we’re not really taking away, but we’re trying to make every experience the same level of experience, but not cookie cutter. So each property is not going to have the same level of amenities. One may have two pools. One may have one pool. One may have bocce, but the other one has shuffleboard. So trying to make it interesting and different enough where it’s a fantastic experience, but not the exact same one that someone would get bored at, and then trying to grow our portfolio and family.

Brian Searl:

It is interesting what you say about the Signature or the word right? Obviously, I think luxury is Far too overused in our industry as is generally speaking RV resort Probably far more than luxury but it is interesting those little tweaks because I’ve noticed that like obvious I think I opened the show and told you guys that briefly before we started that I do marketing for 500 campgrounds and RV resorts in North America and but we’ve been redoing our website internally before the upcoming Ojai conference and I’ve been studying like the conversion metrics of the psychology of the exact words that you use And we found this data point, like when you’re submitting a form that instead of saying like, our thing is start my success journey. And that’s actually ends up converting more than start your success journey is really interesting. So just just those, it still continues to amaze me the things that I discover that you wouldn’t think would make a big impact. But our 20 to 30% sometimes differences just using a different word that means the same thing.

Leslie Taylor-Rharbi:

Absolutely.

Brian Searl:

So like, I’m sure there was, were you involved in that decision? Or you know, that’s not your department of marketing?

Leslie Taylor-Rharbi:

Or? Yeah, no, that’s, that ball would be in my court.

Brian Searl:

So yeah, like, what was their thought? Like, obviously, there was a study process behind this, right? Was it a long one?

Leslie Taylor-Rharbi:

Or? I know, it kind of happened naturally on its own. Because as we were designing and we would do like our entry signs. So it was our signature series and then we would do our signs and it would be the Surf Signature RV Resort. Well, Signature was already in our brand and our name and kind of set that standard. But then we were throwing in the luxury word and it just was too much. So we kind of scaled back to what we had in place and didn’t realize what we had was enough. and already saying what we wanted to position ourselves as.

Brian Searl:

Makes sense. Okay. That’s a good problem to have, right? Yeah. So tell me about like I mean, how do you how do you decide as you continue to expand from a Zeeman perspective? I know you said you oversee, Florida You know if you look at let’s just take Florida as an example, obviously a saturated market tons of people come down there and developed You know, I think as we’ve discussed briefly with glamping the luxury RV market in general is not in trouble and But at a certain point, there’s only so many people who own RVs who will come to Florida who will retire in any given year, right? So how do you navigate those waters as you look to expand in Florida? What do you look for? Is it areas? Is it demographics? Is there a certain point where you say, well, Florida is probably good enough for a few years? How does that thought process go?

Leslie Taylor-Rharbi:

The demand of Florida has always been and I think will continue to be. We look, location is not something we sacrifice, so we’re very specific in where we’re looking. A lot of people want to be near the water, so we try to strategically buy larger parcels near the water. That is becoming harder and harder to do. And there’s a certain number of acres that are kind of our sweet spot so we can get the site count that we want. We aim to be a little larger at 300 sites or more. But our last project was 185 sites and that worked out rather well. Like to be at least 45 minutes away from the Gulf in everything. And those locations have served us well because that’s where people want to be. And then we’ve gone into markets that really didn’t have, I should say, had older RV campgrounds and parks. But we created something new and different. So although tides and surf are in Palmetto, well, not many people knew what Palmetto was, but it was just south of St. Pete in Tampa, and a really connected location to beaches to the major highways and things of that nature. And so it kind of developed that and then just kind of trickled down along the southwest coast. if you will. Our next project’s in North Port, but we’re focusing on there, a park model cottage. Our resorts are 55 plus. And so some people get to a stage in life where they no longer want to tote, but they still want to continue to be in the community and with the friends that they’ve developed on a seasonal basis. And so we are going to be doing a park model village so they can purchase, come down and fly in, fly out, not have to tow anything, not have to set up the RV anymore. So looking at a variety of offerings within that RV space, because you still have the sociability that everybody loves, the activities, the events, the gatherings, and that’s really what it’s all about.

Brian Searl:

And your park model will still be 55 plus?

Leslie Taylor-Rharbi:

Yes, it’d be 55 plus.

Brian Searl:

Mm-hmm. So how do you and maybe this is perhaps just an unfair question I don’t know but I’ve just popped into my head while you’re talking right, right Do you do you and I’m sure this is a question for many other people, right? Does it ever cross your mind that like in 20 years? Maybe I won’t have as many older people as I do today Because the baby boomers and all that stuff, right? Like there’s generally just less of them to go around there has been thought about that but as

Leslie Taylor-Rharbi:

the generations behind it are now moving into that 55 plus. It’s amazing how many people like restricted access, if you will, to be in an all-adult environment, and to have activities, events, and things specifically designed for them, rather than… I raised a daughter, a stepdaughter.

Brian Searl:

So like, I’m fine. Yeah, I’m done with kids. I don’t know. Yeah.

Leslie Taylor-Rharbi:

So I think at some point it may slow down a little bit, but there certainly is need for new and higher-end family resorts. And I, I’m at the, the Tampa RV show each and every year, and I’ll tell you there’s huge demand for it. So a couple of the developments that are coming online will cater to that, which is a fantastic thing.

Brian Searl:

For sure. Yeah, I don’t think I’m ever, well, I won’t say ever because who knows what the future holds, but I don’t think I’m really worried about our industry as a whole. Interesting. Like, I mean, you extrapolate out in 20 years, there’s probably going to be a lot more luxury resorts than there are today in Florida and Texas. And so I was just curious if you ever thought about that, but it sounds like you have a good answer and you have thought about it. So, which is a positive. Okay. Let’s go to Eric Sell for a second. Who wants to start? Paul or Anthony?

Anthony Wollschlager:

Paul this time. I started earlier.

Brian Searl:

Sure. Fire away. All right, Paul. So, well, first, like, give us a little bit more information about Airxce. Like, obviously, during our intro, we learned, I’m not as familiar with the RV industry side as I am the campground ownership side. And so, this is going to be my weak spot. So, probably at some point or another, I will ask you a dumb question where you’ll try to restrain yourself from laughing and that’s fine. You can just tell me it’s a dumb question and then I’ll ask another one.

Paul Craven:

I’ll just refer you to Anthony if you do that.

Brian Searl:

Whoever can help me most, I just need help. So from an Airxce standpoint, walk us through just a little bit about We hear what you provide. We hear what you offer. You’re obviously in different manufacturers and different lines. You know, we’re headquartered in Elkhart, obviously the RV capital of at least the United States, right? And Canada. Yeah. How do you work with all these different manufacturers, vendors, the consumers to decide what kind of products that you want to debut and have? I mean, it’s a wide range, right?

Paul Craven:

Yeah, it is. We want to serve the markets that we’re good at, obviously. We’re not a new company. We’ve got a lot of legacy brands like air conditioning or ventilation, for instance. Every RV, for the most part, is going to put some type of air conditioner in an RV that’s produced. We’re in the industry. A lot of us use RVs, so we know where the trends are going. We work with the OEMs every day to say, hey, what’s next? How are your customers wanting to use the units? Are they dry camping more? Are they having more access to 50 amp service? So where does the industry go when it comes to air conditioning? And that’s just one company that we have and one example. So we stay in our wheelhouse, so to speak. We have a lot of employees and a lot of direct access to RV manufacturers. We ask questions, they tell us where they’re going, we try to lead a little bit and we’re just always forward thinking and that’s just one brand. We’re in heating, we’re in water heating, we’re in roofing, we’re in lamination. We produce and sell a lot of items going into the manufacturing of an RV, whether it be a motorhome or a small travel trailer. We use them, we talk, we listen to the industry. And again, because we’re not a new company, we’ve been doing this for a long time, there’s a trust that the OEMs will come to us for solutions. So, yeah, we expand, our business is constantly growing, and we’ve just launched some new lines here recently, new product segments we’re getting into, but it usually sticks within our wheelhouse. We know the place that we want, that we can be successful, if that makes sense.

Brian Searl:

Yeah, I mean, I think I want to briefly dive into the new areas and how you reach those conclusions in a second, but I really want to ask a question that I shouldn’t ask, which is like, How do you decide where is air conditioning headed for innovation? I’m struggling. I’m just kidding.

Paul Craven:

Well, yeah. Well, you know, there’s there’s a lot of different types. Right. You talk about that’s true. Many split systems. And I think that was mentioned earlier. And just even like ventilation, I mentioned air conditioning, but even in Ken’s world, ventilation is important. Right. You might have a tent and let’s say that all the sides open up. There might be, you know, a need for rooftop ventilation in the bathroom area. So when I say air conditioning, we are really an air conditioning and a ventilation company. And so as we adapt products to Ken’s world, which would be totally different than Leslie’s world, right? So that’s where I say innovation, there’s always needs there. Do you do that for glamping? I’m sure if Ken has a bathroom in one of his glamping units, glamping is a pretty pretty big term, right? M home to a ground and a r she’s gonna call that gl there’s glamping like we’ it’s truly in nature and So depending on what that if there’s bathrooms, yo need some type of ventilat and we have power fans th could be 12 volt, could b

Brian Searl:

And I’m going to assume you don’t want my random product suggestions on where air conditioning could go as an innovation, right?

Anthony Wollschlager:

We’ll take anything we can get.

Brian Searl:

That’s right. Like a little cute robot that pops out of the bottom corner and then fans me, like on the table, like if it’s not reaching me.

Anthony Wollschlager:

I’m writing that down right now, Brian. I’m kidding.

Brian Searl:

I appreciate that. But tell me about some of the new product segments. Obviously, you’re very established. You have a lot of expertise in all these different areas that you talked about. No question about that. Obviously, you’re a leader in those fields, right? As you look at what’s next, though, in other areas that are coming that maybe aren’t existing product lines, is there a science behind how you decide? You’re the Chief Revenue Officer, right? You said? Yes. So obviously there has to be a revenue profitability ROI component to going into a new product line to deciding, right? How are those kind of decisions calculated? When does it become worth it to go into something new?

Paul Craven:

Well, it depends on the needs, right? So it depends on the needs and it depends on availability of products. What is the supply? Does it need to be a domestically produced product? Does it need to be an imported product? Where are the pain points and or opportunities that the OEMs have? And that’s what leads us down some of the roads we go in. And part of our company is we have growth strategy. We’re going to continue to grow and be good partners to the RV industry. And as the RV industry changes, and it changes every year, again, they compete against glamping in some cases. The recent trend has been in very small type travel trailers, single axle products, whereas you go back seven, eight years ago, everybody wanted bigger. It was toy haulers that would max out the square footage legal limit. So the industry constantly changes. And so that means the needs of the OEMs change. So us as a company, we’re constantly looking ahead and our industry will pull us in a lot of directions. You know, there’s some things that we just know, like, we’re not going to produce a RV ourselves. But we see where the needs and wants are based on how the industry is changing. And, you know, we get a good look out. We’re not looking straight in front of us. You know, we’re looking years out in some cases for products.

Brian Searl:

Well, so look years out would be for a second without giving me details about Eric Sell and where you guys are going, obviously, that’s proprietary. But so look years out to me of the RV industry as a whole, where do you see consumer demand going? Like, what are they going to want in a few years? I think you’ve heard two good

Paul Craven:

two good examples of that through Ken and glamping. That is a huge push, people wanting to get out of the cities and out into nature, but they may not want to have an RV. So that’s one direction. It’s still in my mind, it’s a way of experiencing nature. RV is just one vehicle to do it, right? But glamping is in the same category for sure. And then you’ve got, like Leslie’s mentioned, The retirees are the folks that say, hey, you know what? I don’t want the vacation home on the beach in Florida, but I have a beautiful RV that I want to put in a very nice resort. So you’ve got those things as they pop up, we adjust as an industry. And then you’ve got the whole get out and boondock, right? The people that want to, your van camp. call it Van Camp or whatever, that’s been a big surge in the market in the last couple years and probably will be for the near foreseeable future. People want wireless access to whatever remote region they want to go into and they don’t mind living in a small space. So those are the things we consider.

Brian Searl:

Do you think that some of the things that people will want as part of those experiences will rapidly change as technology continues to advance, right? And this is obviously like maybe a selfish question from my perspective for a second. But I’m just fascinated by how much this touches corporate decision making right now. Are there thoughts about AI and robotics and what consumers will expect from a discovery standpoint?

Paul Craven:

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Right. It’s in front of all of us. It’s never going to go away. It’s only going to evolve more and more. But You know, the one thing that is like a common denominator, at least for me in this industry, is that, you know, people are nomadic, especially Americans by trade. We’re nomadic. We want to go places. Even COVID was a great example, right? Everything in society said we should clam up and not leave the house. But as Americans, we wanted to travel. We just couldn’t go via plane or hotel. So people gravitated towards RVs and said, I don’t care where I go. I just don’t want to be home. Right. So we want to travel. Um, so when we, when we look at it from that regards, there’s always going to be an opportunity for us to grow and to look at, you know, the big thing for us, though, is access to wireless and data, right? That’s never going to change. And that’s going more and more. How can we have You know, so someone can work remote or, you know, operate their phones or whatever remote out in some of the areas where there’s just there’s no service, right? So those are the things that we constantly watch in our industry. We see is really adapting to that to make sure that we can meet the needs of however someone wants to use an RV.

Brian Searl:

Well, and I think that’s where I was going, right? Like I’m with you. I’m not worried about the industry at all. And people are going to want to get out and go in their RVs and go glamping and do all that stuff. It was more like what you touched on at the end. Like, what is the, what is the demand of a, of the new RV consumer in 10 years, in 20 years? What are their expectations?

Paul Craven:

Yeah, I would, I would answer that by saying, talk to me about what the 20 year olds today want. Tell me what the 18-year-old is going to want in 10 years, right? So that’s the crystal ball we wrestle with, is that we start looking at the younger generation and we can figure that out. That’ll tell us a lot on the direction of this industry.

Brian Searl:

Interesting. Okay. Anthony, you want to add anything?

Anthony Wollschlager:

No, I think Paul said it really well. Just to touch on how we move from You know, what’s next in our business from a new product category that we enter? You know, the other part that we look at is what’s our skill set today that we have in-house? What’s those internal resources look like? And just one example of that is we manufacture RV windows today through our Clear Vision business. And essentially their business and what they do is they’re bending aluminum all day long. And when you think about other components that are on an RV, such as a baggage door, for example, it’s very similar process, right? They’re bending aluminum, and rather than putting glass in a window, we’re putting, you know, an exterior fiberglass in that same hole. So obviously, there’s products that we have skill sets and a proven record that are really just product extensions for us as we move into different spaces. So we also look at those resources that we have in-house. Regarding the industry as a whole, look, I think COVID taught us a lot. We saw a lot of first-time RV owners enter the space, and they all, you know, were hoping that they had great experiences, right? And I think with that- They went to Zeeman. Yeah, exactly. So ultimately, that leads to, you know, second-time buyers and so on. Our RV Industry Association publishes a ton of data to its members, and it’s checking the boxes up and down, showing how we’re seeing a shift in demographics. Younger families now are using their RVs, perhaps different from the baby boomers, who are still a big part of our market, but demographics have shifted, and how those families are using their units changes how we think about our business. So look, it’s a great industry to be in, right? No pun intended, but we’re providing components that give comfort to people who are creating memories. We take that. It’s a large responsibility for us in our business to make sure that they are comfortable and they have a great experience so they do go continue to enjoy the outdoors.

Brian Searl:

I have a, maybe it’s a hard question, maybe it’s not. But I’m just curious, as you, let’s take a hypothetical situation, right? Like you obviously you’re well known at Elkhart with all the manufacturers you work with for, you know, dozens of years. They all know your quality, they know your reliability, they know that, you know, if they need a specific part in a specific way or fashion or consulted on or whatever else is going to pick up the phone and call you, right? If you look at somebody who’s, and we’ve seen a lot of these over the COVID years, right? A new manufacturer who’s coming into the industry, someone who has never heard of Airxce before, but obviously needs all the things that Paul was talking about, right? I have a bathroom, I need a vent fan, I need air conditioning, I need a furnace, all the things that are inside there. How do you position Airxce as the obvious choice for them? Like what goes into that process?

Anthony Wollschlager:

Great question. I think brand equity helps us a lot. You know, as Paul mentioned, we’re over a 30-year-old company. We’ve been in the market for a very long time and some of our legacy brands such as Coleman, Mock Air Conditioning, Suburban Water Heaters, Suburban Furnaces, you know, they’re nearly like the Kleenex type products, you know, of our industry so to speak. So you have that legacy and ultimately that I think helps. you know, day in and day out, whether it’s a new customer or a current customer, you need to prove yourself that you can meet their demands, right? And so we never, you know, essentially assume because we have these legacy brands that that guarantees us success. Because in the end, those brands can go stale. And, you know, it’s our responsibility to make sure that they don’t.

Brian Searl:

It’s a pretty good answer. Yeah. I mean, I, I don’t know. I don’t know. I can’t say I had a better answer, a different answer than that, but it was just fascinating to me. Like, I mean, like as somebody who would come into the new industry as a manufacturer who knows absolutely nothing about the history, maybe doesn’t even know where Elkhart is. Right. Yeah. How do I make that decision?

Anthony Wollschlager:

I think there’s, you know, there’s some emerging spaces too, you know, um, that are, you know, I wouldn’t say are founded in Elkhart, you know, Elkhart’s, you know, where the majority of RVs are manufactured. But, you know, a bunch of those folks that are smaller manufacturers that, you know, are building a lower demand, but are really customer focused, you know, for customer has high expectations, so they can go off off road and offline. I mean, there’s definitely opportunities for this there to also grow out business where You know, they’re not looking for a standard roof mount air conditioner. You know, they’re looking for an air conditioner that can launch a rocket, maybe. I don’t know. OK, and that’s what helps us also get better as we get into different into different market segments that we haven’t been penetrated before.

Brian Searl:

How much would you charge for that, Leslie? Like, let’s say Anthony partnered with an OEM manufacturer to develop like a rocket capsule that could take them to Elon’s new civilization on Mars. And so they’re only spending half a year at Zeeman RV resorts. Would you cater to that? And how would you handle the age thing with the year travel and cryo sleep to Mars? Like, would that be 55 when they get there? When they come back? How does that?

Leslie Taylor-Rharbi:

That would be tricky, Brian.

Brian Searl:

This is why when I talk less on the shows, it’s better. But it is interesting, right? Like to see all the new markets that we’re headed into and to talk about, like certainly Elkhart will always have a strong place in the RV industry and market. But as you look at these new manufacturers and new types of ways people are staying and glamping and, you know, it’s just fascinating to talk to manufacturers like you who are clearly thinking about it, right?

Paul Craven:

Yeah, we have a good answer when I ask it, but we have a we have a robust aftermarket division as well. And so we we we work the Tampa Super Shows. We display at the Overland rallies. You know, we’ll go to the to the Tiffin rallies. We’ll go to SEMA shows like we’ll we’re present in those in those industries, in those areas, so that that Eric Sell name is out there. You know, And we don’t get everywhere we want to be, but we have a lot of resources to put ourselves, whereas there are some suppliers that really just stay here in Elkhart and, you know, just really focused right here. That’s not us. We, you know, we have European divisions. We we’re present in probably every RV dealer in the country. There’s probably twenty six hundred plus in all of North America. So we’ve we do our best to put our names out there, maybe not in every industry of the RV industry, but we do our best.

Brian Searl:

Is there one place that, and you don’t have to answer this if you don’t want to, I’m just curious, is there one place that you, Paul, as the revenue officer would want to see Airxce push into either a new industry or a product line or somewhere either next year or five years or 10 years down the road, right, that you really think has potential?

Paul Craven:

I don’t know if I could answer that or would answer, but I could tell you this. The first thing that comes to my mind is our people. The thing that we think about the most here is how do we continue to be a good employer? And it’s going to sound like a really cheesy answer, but how can we be a better employer to our employees? And how can we continue to bring better people into our company? Because that’s how we’ll grow. Because there’s people way smarter than Anthony and I, for sure, that can answer those types of questions. Because our people are who are going to take us to the next level, whether it be someone with a better idea or a better relationship than Anthony and I may have with a new startup OEM. So really, I think our growth is going to be dependent on the people who are Eric’s employees, honestly.

Brian Searl:

No, I think generally, that’s a really good answer, right? So I wasn’t really expecting you to answer the question anyway. But that’s the best answer. I think that’s a better answer than I would have expected.

Anthony Wollschlager:

Don’t tell him that, Brian. OK.

Brian Searl:

I mean, I feel the same way, right? Like, I feel like, I mean, that’s the answer I would have given about my people, right? I’m the least smart person on the team and I work for all my employees. So is the way I view it. But so I kind of tend to agree with him. That’s why. So sorry, Anthony. It’s a good answer. What else we got? We got about 10 more minutes here. Is there anything we haven’t covered about either Wild Haven Glamping or Zeeman RV Resorts or Airxce that you guys would like to get out there?

Ken Barber:

I’ll agree with something that I think maybe Leslie said that the whole world right now to me is about expectations, especially when it comes to marketing. You just have to set the expectations correctly and then over deliver on it. And there was a discussion about the word luxury that Leslie said she shied away from. And my business partner and I also sat down and said at the very beginning, we don’t ever want to use the word luxury. And there was another word we said we wouldn’t use in our marketing, which was the word pamper. And at the time, glamping, they talked about, there’s a lot of, oh, we’ve come to, you know, we’ll pamper you with, you know, hotel quality bathrobes and, you know, spa products, you know, soaps in the showers and all these things that they were trying to be a hotel. And for us, we said, let’s eliminate those words. Let’s set the expectations. Here’s what you’re going to get. And for us, it’s comfort, cleanliness, and customer service. That’s what we go for the three Cs. And give people that and they a lot of people don’t want luxury. I don’t want they feel like they’re overpaying if they’re being offered luxury Or they have an assumption that it’s stuffy or too high-end like that.

Brian Searl:

Yeah, right when I look at a luxury hotel That’s not actually where I want to stay. I want to say something really nice But I don’t want to stay somewhere where every time I go to the lobby I can’t wear a set of jeans because I feel uncomfortable right, right, right and

Ken Barber:

So that one’s been big for us is how we set them. And then every piece of marketing that we deliver has to tell people what they’re going to get before they get there. And then right when they arrive, tell them again. And then for us, I mean, all of your companies probably do this, but we read the reviews as soon as they come out. I get every review right to my desk and read it, respond to it. I also read my competitors reviews. I don’t know if you all do that too, but it’s so insightful to see what they like and don’t like about your competitors. And so that’s what’s helped us refine our model from the Sonoma property up to this Yosemite property.

Brian Searl:

So expectations, your advice to all the people who are interested in getting into glamping is set the bar really low and then you just barely, you’ll be fine.

Ken Barber:

Set it clearly. Define your niche that you want to be in. Make sure there’s demand there and you can deliver on it. Set very clear expectations of what they’re going to get and then surprise them, exceed them. You know, we’ll deliver s’mores kits to people’s tents if they’ve visited us before with a little personalized note. You know, thanks for coming back. And, you know, here’s a sweet treat for the night. And, you know, just a little surprise and delights that work really well in our industry.

Brian Searl:

That’s the stuff that really interests me as we go forward. Like, I mean, there’s lots of stuff because I’m an AI geek. Right. But but when you talk about things like the personalization aspect, you know, that that that ability to Like, for example, our whole company is migrating to HubSpot as a CRM, right? And just the ability to do a better job of collecting that data, of understanding who people are, not necessarily always from a profit standpoint, but from a how can I make the experience better standpoint, I think is vastly going to be unlocked in brand new ways that interest me quite a bit with AI and automation. the fact that like, you can actually it’s easier with two locations of a glamping resort versus how many maybe Leslie has, right? And how many people stay with her, but just the unlocking of the ability to actually have a staff member remember that that birthday is there and then have a plan in place and have kind of an SOP to go out and get something that’s maybe during Halloween or not, right? Because it does really like so dramatically change the experience of that guest. Unbelievable. I’ve been a Platinum member in Marriott for, I don’t know, 20 years and still like, cool, that’s nice that you put a bag in my room. Although I don’t think they put bags in my room anymore. They just give me free water when I check in.

Anthony Wollschlager:

It’s a great point. I touched on it earlier. And we talk a little bit internally about, hey, we want to be the boring guys. And when we talk about that is that we don’t want to be the reason why someone had a bad experience, whether that’s a customer dealing with us or a product of ours that failed in the field. And we take that very seriously. We’re not saying that we want our products to be boring. But in terms of, hey, you turn it on and it works and I don’t have to worry about it, I mean, that’s critical to have that comfort and that experience go in your favor. If something happens to your RV in a campground, you know, typically if the stairs not working, you’ll figure out a way to get in. But if the air conditioning doesn’t work, bad things are happening. People get emotional. So we really make sure that we want those things to work.

Brian Searl:

Well, that’s one of the things that like, I’ll be honest as a human being frustrates me more than anything. And I feel like sometimes it’s because I’m such a geek and I set such high standards for myself. Like I’m really hard on myself. But those are the things like you’ll call the big companies on the phone, like just figure out how to have somebody answer the phone. Like I was I probably shouldn’t say this publicly. Like, I was yesterday, one of my employees was bringing all my stuff across the Canadian border. Because I’m getting permanent residency up here in Calgary and so we have kind of a one-time tax exemption and the border people had to get on the phone with my lawyer because they didn’t know the law said that I could bring it like and so that was just kind of one of those things where you’re like Don’t they train you on that stuff? And so that’s the kind of thing that really shouldn’t irritate me, but does just like the air conditioner. You just have to have it be able to turn on and work. And then the extra bells and whistles like Ken are providing would be great too from an ROI perspective, Paul. Like when you turn on the air conditioner with your voice, which is important in the future, it then says, yes, Anthony, I will turn that air conditioning up for you. And then they’ll be like, how does it know my name? Well, maybe we already have that.

Ken Barber:

Or how about if it turned off the AC when it sensed that your phone left the building because it knows when you’ve left and that’s a sustainability benefit, which is what people want right now.

Brian Searl:

You guys have never been on the show before, but for those people who do, I never ever self-promote myself, but we’re actually going to build that for RV resorts. We’re going to build smart cabins where we put door sensors on the doors, and it knows what time checkout is. And if you open the door and close it after a checkout date in the reservation system, and then the present sensor inside doesn’t detect motion for 30 minutes, then turn off the lights and turn down the air conditioner and save a bunch of money on your electricity. That makes sense to me. And that technology is there. Yeah, but that and thousands of other things that you can automate that will add to those little touches you know, one of the things that When I first started in the AI space, which was like we released our first custom chatbot or whatever You know a couple months after chat GPT came out. I’ve been setting AI since 2020 But one of the things we first got pushback on was like I don’t want to have more technology in the camping experience That doesn’t make any sense to me But the reframing of that is, well, if the technology can allow Ken to remember a birthday, to put that little, you know, goodie bag in that girl’s tent, then technology is great. Let’s have more of that, right? Let’s not have it necessarily in the customer’s face, but let’s have more of that. And then like just the chatbot was our example. Well, like if the chatbot can answer people’s questions, More quickly than them calling on the phone and waiting on hold or sending an email and waiting a couple days That gets them outside faster They enjoy the beautiful views with Ken or the beautiful sights at Seaman or whatever that is. And so I think there’s There’s gonna be a lot of those conversations I think in the next five years with the way technology is progressing it at a pace that’s unheard of before But I’m excited to see where it takes guest experience Even something as simple as a HubSpot CRM, or as complex as a talking air conditioner. Paul, we’re going to follow up with you in a year. I want to see this, Paul. Anybody have any final thoughts?

Paul Craven:

No, thank you. Thank you for your time.

Leslie Taylor-Rharbi:

Appreciate the opportunity.

Ken Barber:

I’d invite, oh, I’d say one more thought is I’d invite everyone listening and attending right now on this call to come stay at a Wild Haven location in Sonoma County or Yosemite. And I really experienced the beauty of Northern California.

Brian Searl:

You beat me to it. I was going to go around the room and do that for everybody, but what can I find information on Wildhaven Glamping?

Ken Barber:

Yep. Um, uh, we have two locations, so you can go to wildhavensonoma.com or wildhavenyosemity.com.

Brian Searl:

And where’s your third location if you had your dream choice right now? Lake Tahoe. That’s where we’ve been looking. Yep. Cool. Uh, Anthony and or Paul, where can they find out more information about Eric Sal?

Anthony Wollschlager:

Ericsville.com.

Brian Searl:

And Leslie, Signature by Zeeman.

Leslie Taylor-Rharbi:

Signature RV Resorts by Zeeman.com.

Brian Searl:

Perfect. Well, I think we’ll just head off about a minute early here. I think we had a great discussion. I appreciate everybody from being here and for putting up with my questions, some of which were good and most of which were terrible. Appreciate you all being here. And we will see you next week. Another episode of MC Fireside Chats. Take care, guys. I appreciate you.

Leslie Taylor-Rharbi:

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01:

This episode of MC Fireside Chats with your host, Brian Searle. Have a suggestion for a show idea? Want your campground or company in a future episode? Email us at hello at moderncampground.com. Get your daily dose of news from moderncampground.com. And be sure to join us next week for more insights into the fascinating world of outdoor hospitality.