MC Fireside Chats – October 23rd, 2024

This is MC Fireside Chats, a weekly show featuring conversations with thought leaders, entrepreneurs, and outdoor hospitality experts who share their insights to help your business succeed. Hosted by Brian Searle, the founder and CEO of Insider Perks, empowered by insights from Modern Campground, the most innovative news source in the industry.

Brian Searl:

Welcome everybody to another episode of MC Fireside Chats. My name is Brian Searle with Insider Perks and I guest Modern Campground 2, although I don’t do much of that on a day-to-day basis, but I’ll take credit for it anyway. Super excited to be here with you for another fourth week episode. We’re going to talk about outdoor recreation, RV industry as we normally do on this show. So we have a couple of our recurring guests, Phil, Shane, and Eleanor who are joining us today. Eleanor from RVDF Canada, Shane from the Canadian RV Association and a bunch of other things that Shane does, Phil and Gracia from the RVDA of the United States. And then we have a couple special guests here that I’ll introduce themselves in a second. Maggie from the American Hiking Society. I can’t believe I just mispronounced society. Like of all the words and all the intros that I could potentially mispronounce it was society. And then Rick Laszlo, did I pronounce that right? From the Is it the Ontario Boating Association or is it the Boating Ontario Association?

Rick Layzell:

Oh, it’s two. Boating Ontario Association and the Canadian Marine Retailers Association.

Brian Searl:

How come they didn’t get a spot in your byline, Rick? Well, I could not watching to see that.

Rick Layzell:

I could adjust that.

Brian Searl:

Right. Okay. All right. I’m sorry. It’s my fault. Technical issues, guys. We’re blaming it on me. That’s fine. Everything on the show you’ll learn is my fault. Anyway. Speaking of like pressure, though, to like the intro, Shane, do you notice how the intro it says, we’re the most innovative news source in the industry. That’s a lot of pressure. I think I need to change that. Because I feel like kind of overwhelmed by that now, especially in an age of AI and how fast things are moving. I’m not, I don’t know that I’m confident I can keep up with that moniker.

Shane Devenish:

Don’t be. I think you’re right there.

Brian Searl:

Do you think I should change it to like the most mediocre but almost innovative news source in the industry?

Shane Devenish:

I think it’s ideal. I think you are.

Brian Searl:

I don’t know. I feel like I’m just a lot of pressure, man. Did you see what came out yesterday? We’re not going to talk about AI because I want to talk to these guys, but did you see what came out yesterday from Claude? I did not. Anthropic, Claude. They released a computer use model. But we look at this thing on YouTube, like it’s pretty crazy. Like you can type in a prompt, like in the example that one of them gave was like plan. I’m in San Francisco and my friend’s coming to visit me. I want to plan a hiking. You know tricks like whatever you type into chat GPT normally, right? Like complex like find me the best time in the sunset except now the AI literally will take that prompt and it will open your browser and it will type into Google and it will look at the results and it will read it and open a new tab and then open your calendar and open your maps and search for directions and find how far it is from your house and put the time in the calendar and invite people. Wow. That’s out today, and it’s the worst it will ever be. So that’s what I mean when I say innovative is a little bit of a pressure thing.

Shane Devenish:

You know what? I’ve missed the last couple, and when I miss, I’m so far behind. Like, this is unbelievable.

Brian Searl:

We don’t normally talk about this stuff, right? Because nobody wants to hear about this boring, geeky stuff that I’m obsessed with. I do. But anyway, let’s talk about more fun things, like hiking and boating. Because let’s be clear, AI is really going to be cool, but we’re still going to want to hike and we’re still going to want to boat. We’re still going to want to camp, right? These things are important. We got to talk about this stuff. So Maggie, do you want to introduce yourself first real quick?

Maggie Peikon:

Sure. I’m Maggie Pycon. I’m the manager of communications at American Hiking Society, and I am currently based in Castle Valley, Utah.

Brian Searl:

Awesome. Thanks for being here, Maggie. And Rick, since you’re new.

Rick Layzell:

Rick Lazell, I’m the CEO of the Boating Ontario Association. So we represent the recreational boating sector across the province. And I’m also the president of the newly formed Canadian Marine Retailers Association.

Brian Searl:

Awesome. Thanks for being here, Rick. I’m excited to dive into both of those organizations. Before we get started with our special guests, Everybody in the show. Oops. I don’t know how I made Eleanor big there, but hi Eleanor. I don’t know how to run tech apparently. So I’m curious for our regular guests, Phil, Shane, Eleanor, anything that’s kind of come across your desk? I know you have some conventions coming up, right? Anything else that’s come across your desk that you feel we should be talking about?

Eleonore Hamm:

Well, I was just going to say in Canada, we just had a rate drop. The federal government just dropped the interest rate to 3.75%, which is really, really good news for our industry. It’s down 50 basis points. You know, the retail sales have been a little bit soft in 2023 on the RV side. I’m not sure how the boating industry is faring, but this is definitely good news for us. It means that inflation has come down and you know, affordability is getting a little bit closer to our families that RV and then use our RVs to go boating and hiking for their outdoor adventure and family vacations.

Rick Layzell:

And Eleanor, honestly, the boating sector would echo what you just said with RV. Our first time buyer disappeared this year because, you know, the interest rates just scared the heck out of that client and we just didn’t see them this year.

Brian Searl:

Do you think that is just a relation to interest rates though? Or do you think that’s other factors of the economy? Or do you think something else?

Rick Layzell:

Are you asking me, Brian? Yeah. I think there’s other factors going on too, but I think specifically when I’m speaking of our time buyer, that’s a monthly payment buyer. And when we all of a sudden go from 380 a month to 420 a month, that buyer goes, hold on, I just went up 10%. I don’t know that I can afford to do this anymore. So, and that’s like, it’s definitely, there’s complexity here because of what’s happened at the grocery store and

Brian Searl:

Carbon tax on our heating bills and everything else, right?

Rick Layzell:

So, you know, it’s multiple things, but the interest rate is so close to so many people. I mean, Eleanor, good on you for saying it, because I’m going to tell you, I’m renegotiating my mortgage right now, and I was all over my banker five seconds after it was announced this morning. Yeah, absolutely.

Eleonore Hamm:

And you know, it’s like you said, it’s it’s that I mean, some product is still going the higher end product, we’re seeing it’s still moving, you know, larger fifth wheels, but that that family payment that family that’s that’s looking at that, that bi weekly or monthly payment. That’s what they’re looking at. That’s what they use to negotiate and buy. And so I think this will be really good news for our dealers.

Brian Searl:

Yeah, I mean, this is this is probably and again, I don’t want to devote a huge chunk of the show to this. But this is really kind of important for us to And maybe it’s a me thing but like I feel almost guilty sometimes that I hear a number like a $40 monthly increase and that doesn’t like wouldn’t impact me because I don’t know I whether I work 120 hours a week or I’ve been really lucky or whatever the right And so I feel guilty when I hear that. I’m like, oh, it’s just $40. But I think a lot of business owners, generally speaking, are in that same position. If you own a multimillion dollar campground or whatever, like $40 a month, maybe you’re not pricing the tomatoes at the store, right? Like most people have to do. And so I think it’s important to maybe put that into perspective of how much that interest percentage point actually matters to people. Because it’s huge, right?

Shane Devenish:

Yeah, it’s the mortgages themselves. A lot of buyers, I don’t know the exact percentage, but a lot of people buy in boats and RVs using the home equity line. And when their mortgage payments were going up, they just couldn’t afford to do that for this time. So hopefully it relieves some

Brian Searl:

Pressure it impacts other things to you, right? Like it’s not just yes the first-time boaters and those people are also paying more But let’s assume they buy a first-time RV or they buy a first-time boat and they have to pay a little bit more Well, maybe they don’t have enough for their hiking equipment or the extras or the fishing pole That’s gonna allow them to go out and be on their boat more right or and so all this stuff is we talked about the circle with you guys kind of before we Started the show about how you know why we have somebody from the boating industry on here why we have somebody from the hiking society on here and because we believe all that stuff contributes to people’s love of the outdoors and makes them go camping and makes them go boating and makes them go hiking more and makes them RV more. And so that’s kind of where we wanted to go, you know, with that. But I just thought that was important to touch on for a second, just to set that kind of, because I think it’s missed and maybe it’s just me, right? Like I try to be cognizant of this stuff, but it’s hard. Like I haven’t, and I feel guilty about this, that I haven’t checked the price of a tomato or food that I buy at the store in probably five or six years. And that’s obviously a personal issue that I need to reconcile with myself. It’s not something we need to discuss and solve for me in a therapy way on the show. But I just think it’s important to bring up that this is hard on a lot of people today in multiple factors. And we need to always, I think, remember that. But let’s talk about more happy things. We want to start with hiking or boating? Phil, you choose. Oh, let’s start with boating.

Phil Ingrassia:

Boating it is. All right.

Rick Layzell:

I was going to say ladies first, but OK.

Brian Searl:

Maggie it’s best for last best for last So Rick tell us about like give us some history here like the most of the people who watches so are from our campground owners RV park owners, you know the RV industry So for those people who maybe aren’t well who are not in the boating industry or the boating lifestyle Maybe they own one right, but they’re not regularly a part of what your association does They might not know or have any clarity. Just give us the kind of 101 elevator pitch

Rick Layzell:

on Boating Ontario or on this sector? Well, you might as well do both, right? Okay, so Association’s been around 56 years, started as the Ontario Marina Operators Association, evolved to Ontario Marine, and then in 2009 morphed itself to Boating Ontario to represent all elements of the sport, right? Marinas, boat dealers, service centers, the F&I sector, and everything else. We’ve got 520 members across the province. We do a number of key initiatives. We have an environmental best practices program called Clean Marine that is coming into its 30th anniversary. in 2025, and that’s a, one of my team is, his primary role is managing the in-person audits for that program and the communications with the sector. And you can appreciate things like shrink wrap is a big deal right now for us as a single use plastic. So, but we also do a lot of advocacy work. You know, Eleanor, you know, we kind of talked about our entry buyer, And that’s awesome that your upper buyer is still there. Ours is gone. There is no big boat buyer in Canada right now because of the luxury tax. And that has decimated the big boat part of our industry.

Brian Searl:

I’m sorry, just to clarify, does the luxury tax not impact RVs then or what? Nope.

Eleonore Hamm:

No, it does not. They were excluded from the luxury tax.

Brian Searl:

Okay. Gotcha. Sorry. Please continue. Yeah.

Rick Layzell:

So it’s, you know, I mean, from an advocacy perspective, I mean, that’s, that’s our big one right now, but we’ve got, we’ve got some other issues brewing with transport Canada on mandatory life jacket wear and some vessel regulation restrictions that have been passed down to municipalities. We’ve got some, some weird stuff going on and some waterways where I bought on like Simcoe as an example, there’s seven municipalities on my Lake. Karen and I could leave our marina in the morning with one set of rules and get to lunch in the afternoon with a different set of rules theoretically like there’s there’s some really some really wild stuff going on. So, that’s kind of the close note side of what we do. Obviously, we do a lot of events and all that kind of thing like everybody else does. From a sector perspective, we kind of touched on that. I mean, 2024 is definitely a tougher year than 2023. Not unforecasted, we had thought 2024 would be a bit of a thinner year. I think it turned a bit even thinner than we thought it would. We’re going to see double non-currents inventory in the pipeline coming into 2025 with some of our retailers, and it’s been a long, long time since we’ve seen that. That said, there’s some really cool stuff going on in the industry. There’s some great new technologies that are simplifying the boating process with changes at the helms and joystick docking and all these kinds of things that are really making boating easier for families because it’s, you know, the worst two moments of owning a boat is launching it and docking it. If you don’t know how to do either, they can be the most humiliating moments of the process. Yeah, that’s kind of the calls notes version, if you will.

Brian Searl:

Yeah, I’m waiting for the self-driving boat. How close are we to that, Rick?

Rick Layzell:

We’ll wait for the self-driving Tesla that actually works, and then we’ll see about the boat.

Brian Searl:

I think we’re a while away. I’d like to have a self-driving boat that pulls up to the dock of the campground and turns into a self-driving RV that will then drive me to my site. So that you can go hiking? Yes. Well, yeah, obviously. But they would have to transform into a Tesla to make sure that I could fit onto the trailhead, right? Got it. And then, yeah, I don’t know, maybe a self-driving wheelchair if I get tired halfway up the hill or something. But so yeah, I mean, again, my experience with boating is really like, Like I’ve been out on my girlfriend’s parents boat right at the cabin and I’ve driven it and you know kind of Experienced the like I can park it and I can pull it away from the dock and do all those things, right? but we have noticed like just in that small sample size and that’s in British Columbia and Shoe swap the the traffic has declined almost dramatically like you and some of that is wildfire smoke right over by us and fires and things like that, but So what do you think is like other than this economic stuff that we don’t want to focus too much on the negative although it’s important, right? What do you see as changing in the association over the last few years? Has there been other differences? Have there been people doing different behaviors? And the reason I asked this to specify is like in the RV industry, I’m not sorry RV industry, but campgrounds specifically is more my side of things, right? We’ve seen luxury travelers continue to not slow down to go out and to enjoy their rigs and go to higher end luxury RV resorts, but the middle has kind of been more tight with belts, you know, belt tightening and not spending as much. And so does that impact how often you pull your boat out, where you go on a boat, where you stay, how long you stay?

Rick Layzell:

Yes, there’s there’s a few things here. I mean, certainly the the influx of new voters during the pandemic, just like on the RB side. I mean, you know, I’ve spent my life in the boat business. 35 years I’ve been in this industry and forever we’ve talked about getting new people into boating and COVID went. like this and we had a gajillion new people and we had empty showrooms and empty displays and everything else. And now we’re experiencing that side of it, right? So, you know, we’re running a messaging campaign right now that is really targeted at the new buyers that came in. to help them overcome those humiliation hurdles of docking and launching and a few other educational responsibility things that will hopefully help them stay in the fold. You know, as I’ve said to the sector, you know, we gained all these new boaters during the pandemic, it’ll be awesome if we keep 50% of them when they get two foot itis in another year or two and need a two foot or nine foot bigger boat or whatever, we’re going to be in great shape if we only keep half. So, You know, to the, to the, sorry, Brian, what was the other? There was two parts to your question.

Brian Searl:

The other part was… Oh, don’t ask me. I’m super old. Shane, what did I say?

Shane Devenish:

Change of the industry, I think is what we were talking about, right?

Brian Searl:

So just besides the slowdown in first-time buyers, right? Does it change the behavior of people who already have boats?

Rick Layzell:

So I think some of the economic pressures have kept people on the docks a little bit this year. We’ve seen that at our marina. My wife and I have a 34 foot cruiser and we boat. We’re not people that hang out at the marina a whole lot. Our passion is to be on the water. I think we get spent 29 nights on the waterways this year. But there’s definitely some families that with the economic pressures are going, you know what? Yeah, I’m gonna still own the boat, but I’m not going anywhere. So we saw a little bit of that this year. Weather played into a little bit of this year too. Let’s not kid ourselves. May long weekend was spectacular, but June quite frankly stunk. And we had a lot of rain. In our world, in the boating world, the angling community will still go out. I’ve always said the fishermen and the families that fish will go on the water. They just put on more gear. But the cruisers, the families that are going out to do water sports, whether it’s tubing or wakeboarding or whatever, they’re not going out if it’s pouring rain. Or if it’s windy.

Brian Searl:

Correct. Wakeboards and skis. Yeah.

Shane Devenish:

So, yeah. Hey, Rick, what about water levels?

Rick Layzell:

Oh, boy. And I’m trying not to steal all the time here, Maggie.

Brian Searl:

I promise I’ll shut up. Like I felt like that was an inside joke or like… No, no, not at all. No, it’s…

Shane Devenish:

Campgrounds have our issues and yeah, yeah, for sure.

Brian Searl:

I mean, we’ve seen that on shoe swap to like, great.

Rick Layzell:

So, so we did, we do a series of 8 regional meetings through the month of March where we go around the province and their boutique meetings, 40 or 50 attendees at each one. it’s kind of a spring tune-up before they get going, right? Before they start to unwrap the boats. One of my messages this year in March was beware of water levels. We didn’t have a big winter. There isn’t a lot of ice pack. There’s not a lot of water coming down from the northern watershed. So expect the water levels to be low. Then the rain came. And holy cow was the water levels that were high this year. And then all of a sudden about the, again, I vote on Simcoe and we’ve run the Trent Severn quite a bit. Somewhere around early September, somebody pulled a drain plug out of the bathtub, and I swear if Simcoe gets another foot lower, my boat’s gonna be on the bottom. So it’s been wild swings. Now the Great Lakes, Shane, to answer your question, the Great Lakes have actually been okay, right? Georgian Bay and Huron and Michigan and Superior Lake Ontario and that. Lake Erie’s always kind of weird because it’s so narrow and shallow and the pushes that come across. The Great Lakes have actually not been as bad this year.

Brian Searl:

Why did you ask Shane? I’m just curious.

Shane Devenish:

No, because it’s sometimes been a problem if it’s a heavy winter or like Rick said, if it was a dry winter, because, you know, there was some flooding a few years back along Lake Ontario shore. So, you know, it definitely affects the boating industry if it’s too high or low.

Rick Layzell:

And I sat on a committee with the International Joint Commission who oversee the levels on the Great Lakes for two years. And it was because of the water levels, specifically Lake Ontario and the St. Lawrence Seaway, that were really impacted. I mean, because Shane’s dead right. I mean, there was boulders that their docks were underwater all summer. There’s families that couldn’t get to their cottages. There are water access cottages because they simply couldn’t get to the property kind of thing. So there’s been some massive, massive swings.

Brian Searl:

All right, so I’m going to ask some tie-in questions here, right, and some of them are bound to be stupid because I don’t know the industries of boating or really RVing that much as closely, but I’m curious just as a basic tie-in here, right, if we look at, you know, Phil, from a dealer’s association standpoint, if we look at the class of RVs that are big enough and capable enough of towing boats, Has there been any kind of an indicator like if we’re if we’re looking at first-time buyers of boats who are declining right? because the luxury tax and economic factors and and maybe people are using less of their boats as Some of these people are looking to either upgrade their RVs or become first-time RV buyers We’ve noticed and talked in the show before about a trend towards smaller rigs generally But has there been any conversations about maybe I don’t need a towable Like a huge unit that can tow as much as it did before because I may be not gonna buy the boat or I’m gonna hold off on it

Phil Ingrassia:

Well, I don’t know about, you know, the motorized market has been, it isn’t just the towing capacity. The motorized market in general has been a smaller percentage of the overall RV sales. Recently, right? You know, over the last, you know, 15 years. The volume, you know, the volume.

Brian Searl:

You don’t have to say like recently is not 15 years. They know that. That’s pretty true. Yeah. It’s, it’s really been. No questions, Brian.

Phil Ingrassia:

That’s fine. Yeah, it’s been really shifting towards the total side. So, you know, those folks aren’t usually going to be towing two things. But I will say that, you know, the idea of people owning more than one outdoor recreation piece of equipment is fairly common. I mean, some of the best you know, future buyers for RVs or people that already own a boat or already own a power sports equipment or things like that. And then of course, when you get into personal watercraft, you know, some people are using those for the toy haulers for those. So there’s, there’s a lot of, uh, connectivity. And one of the things that we’ve gotten away from over the years, we still use it from time to time, but the quote unquote RV lifestyle, you know, the RV is a, vehicle to which that they’ll use to go boating, fishing, camping, or hiking. So there’s so many things that encompass why people are buying an RV. It may not be just to camp, for instance, in an RV campground. It’s to do other things. And a lot of them are centered on water sports and outdoor recreation activities like hiking.

Brian Searl:

Is there any data, and I know I may be stretching here, right? But is there any data of somebody who’s going to look for a boat that, you know, they maybe need a new vehicle? Like, I’ve decided I want to be a boater, whether it’s first time or, well, mostly first time, right? I’ve decided I want to be a boater. I’ve decided I can, you know, afford it, I can pay for it, do all that kind of stuff. Obviously, I need to tow it somehow. I’ve got a car. Is there any data on like, the methodology behind someone who says, like, do I need to go buy a truck? Or maybe I want to just go all the way into the rv lifestyle right because I can also now I could tow And maybe I’m not driving right so I’m not double towing but maybe is there any data on that like the decision making behind like Maybe I want to go all the way to an rv versus just getting a truck and keep my car

Phil Ingrassia:

Well, you know, I’d have to go look at our real detailed consumer demographics. I don’t have that at the tip of my fingers here. But certainly, you know, there is a confluence there where the boat owners and the RV owners combine. In fact, in the US, and Eleanor might know more in Canada, we have a number of dual boat dealers, RV dealers who are selling both products. probably around seven to 8% of RV dealers are also in some kind of marine product sales, whether it’s personal watercraft or full on boats.

Eleonore Hamm:

Yeah. I mean, I don’t know if we were quite that high in terms of percentage of dealers, but we, I do know that, you know, some of our dealers will have a subsequent boat dealership, you know, near nearby or be involved in that. Um, And same thing as with power sports, they may sell some power sports as well, depending on their market and depending where they’re obviously located. I don’t know that we have that type of data that you were asking about, Brian. We have demographic information and we know usage of their units and what they’re doing with their units. So through that, we could probably gauge the overlap of how many are RVing and hiking and RVing and boating.

Brian Searl:

Yeah, I mean, obviously, it’s a stretch, right? And I didn’t, you know, expect any of you to have it at your fingertips. But it just it to me, it’s a maybe not in a land of higher interest rates, right? Where that $40 a month, for example, matters. But to me, it’s something that at least if you enjoy camping, or have rented an RV in the past, that that’s a logical, like, if I’m going to buy 100 plus $1,000 truck to tow my boat, that maybe like, at least crosses my mind, right?

Phil Ingrassia:

Right. Another way to look at it too, Brian, is that we’re seeing more and more in the U.S., more and more marinas add a campground feature to their list of services that they’re offering people. So that shows you right there, there’s an intersection of those owners. And I think vice versa too, some of the campgrounds are really focusing on water features as well in the U.S. you know, we’re certainly there’s a competitors and for some families are going to have to weigh, okay, am I going to buy an RV or am I going to buy a boat, you know, but there’s, there’s a lot of cross cross-pollination there. And it’s just, you know, people that want to be outside and water features are huge part of the, the appeal of campgrounds.

Rick Layzell:

And I think where that crossover really fits, and Phil, I completely agree with everything you just said. It’s really, it’s the smaller side of the boating industry, but it’s the core of the boating industry, right? The boating industry isn’t about yachts, right? I mean, what we sell is 20-foot boats to blue-collar families with average household incomes. That’s really who we’re all about, despite Ottawa wanting to say it’s all about luxury yachts, it’s not. Um, so it’s, you know, I know when we talk to, and I’ve been doing boat shows for my entire career, when we talk to families that, you know, are active RV enthusiasts and they’re adding a boat, it’s what we’re, we’re now using facilities or campgrounds that, you know, have a marina water feature. As you said, what they’re looking at is fishing boats, small pontoon boats, and personal water. Right. That’s where they’re going.

Brian Searl:

I have one more question about boating, and then I want to move to hiking, unless anybody else has any questions that are better than mine, which is not a high barrier to cross, by the way. So if we look at boating, we’ve seen a lot of interest in RV rentals as the pandemic has come and gone and we begin to normalize, right? Is there an uptick that you’ve seen on the rental side of the business?

Rick Layzell:

I don’t know if we can call it an uptick or maybe an explosion. The largest player in the game in the boating industry is a little company called Brunswick. So they own Mercury Marine and Sea Ray boats and Bayliner and Lund and Lowe and a whole bunch of other boats. They bought, and I’m going to say it’s three years ago, it might be a little more than that, a organization called Freedom Boat Club. And Freedom Boat Club is, forgive me, I don’t mean to offend anybody, I’ll probably say the term wrong. It’s like having, you buy a block of space with a boat or a number of uses with a boat. I believe when they bought Freedom, and Cecil Hahn is the fellow that heads it up, I believe they had like 700 locations. I’m pretty sure they’re at 1300 locations now. So that’s one. There’s another group called Carefree Boat Club. There’s another organization that was based out of Europe that has now entered Canadian waters. I don’t know if they’re in the U.S., called Skippery. And most of these folks are primarily renting boats that are, you know, we’re in that wheelhouse of the entry level guy. It’s 18 to sort of 24 feet kind of thing. It’s a mix of personal watercraft, pontoon and fishing boats. So yeah, rental is definitely on the up.

Brian Searl:

And you coming from the association standpoint, are you advocating for everybody on the water? Are you advocating mostly for owners? Are you advocating for the companies that are selling this stuff?

Rick Layzell:

So we advocate for the industry. So I mean, are we advocating? Look, from my perspective, I think rental is a glorious thing. I think it’s fantastic. We’ve got to create more pathways for customers to get on the water. And if you start today and today you’re going, you know what? I can’t afford 420 or 380. I can’t afford any of those monthly payments. But oh, I can buy a block of space that puts me on the water with my family five times a year. I want to do that. There’s going to be a natural conversion where that person with that family with a block of space finds their passion and goes, I want to be on the water all the time. So we need to embrace that. I mean, and I won’t tell you that there aren’t some people in the industry that disagree with me because there are. And that’s OK. I don’t I don’t mind good objective discussion. But, you know, we’ve got to quit saying the only way to buy a boat or and I’m not going to speak for you folks in the RV world, but the only way to buy a boat is to walk into a boat dealer and buy a boat. That’s not the only way to get to the water. There’s lots of ways to get there. I think rental is a great, great pathway for it.

Shane Devenish:

Hey, Brian, can I ask Rick, can I ask you, in the RV industry, we got outdoorsy, RV-easy, RV share, where peer-to-peer RV rentals. Do you have anything like that in the boat industry?

Rick Layzell:

So a couple of companies have tried. I will tell you, and straight up transparent, I’m an Airbnb owner. I have a property down South that we rent out. We write the forms that all the marinas use. We produce all the forms that marinas use for their slip rentals and what have you. And renting your boat becomes an insurance nightmare. if you’re taking income from renting your boat or taking people out on your boat then you are captaining that is a completely different insurance conversation than a recreational boat insurance policy and I spent five years in the boat insurance field and most people don’t know it so they just rent it out and they have no idea that if that boat if the renter lights that thing up or causes some kind of harm at the marina, their insurance company under a wreck boating policy is going to walk away. So to answer your question, Shane, I don’t believe so currently. There’s been a couple of organizations that have sniffed around that I’ve talked to the last couple of years, but nothing’s come to fruition that I’ve seen as of yet.

Brian Searl:

I mean, it makes sense to me, right? Like it’s like we hear the horror stories or I do from the campground owners of the people who are terrible at driving RVs and back them to the store over a pedestal or into a tree. But it feels like crashing a boat is much easier, right? Like even though it’s open water and you wouldn’t think so with the docking and all the rules and left right side of the lake and right. It feels like that is a little bit more like I can understand why the insurance companies are more hesitant. Am I off base there? No, I don’t think so. No, I don’t either. All right. Well, let’s talk about hiking. Maggie’s been so patient over there and we saved the best for last.

Maggie Peikon:

So I’m a former boat owner and I’m a camper owner and in the market for a destination trailer. So this is all interesting conversation for me.

Brian Searl:

Perfect. So tell us about the American Hiking Society.

Maggie Peikon:

Yeah. So American Hiking Society is a nonprofit organization that’s been around since 1976. So almost 50 years old now. We’re a small but mighty staff of eight with a nationwide scope. We seek to protect the hiking experience through our programs and events and our advocacy work. Our mission is to empower all to enjoy, share and preserve the hiking experience. And we achieve that mission through our various programs and initiatives, including our volunteer vacations, our alternative breaks, National Trails Day and Hike the Hill, which is an advocacy event that happens every year, virtually and in person in Washington, D.C. So it’s pretty cool. There’s lots of different ways to get involved, to give back to the trails, to try your hand at some trail work and trail maintenance and trail building. Lots of cool ways to give back to the lands that you enjoy exploring.

Brian Searl:

I’m going to start off with a stereotypical question for you, and maybe it only exists in my mind, right? Sure. And it’s possible, because my mind, as we’ve already established, is very strange. When I think of how I imagine, and I’m carefully wording that, when I think about how I imagine that most RV park owners envision hikers, it is people who are more likely to pitch a tent than it is to pull into an an RV park with a multi-million dollar rig. I think that that’s in some ways unfair, because I like to go hiking up and down mountains and, well, I can’t afford an RV yet, but one day. What would you say to that kind of demographic

Maggie Peikon:

I think I own a camper van and I like to camp. I don’t necessarily love being in a tent. So maybe I’m not that kind of hiker. But, you know, on occasion I do backpack and I am in a tent. But I think that there are plenty of people that own incredibly expensive and luxury RVs that like to hike.

Brian Searl:

For sure.

Maggie Peikon:

Yeah. I think that it really runs the gamut from, you know, your camper van people, your car campers, tent campers, RVers.

Brian Searl:

Well and I really just I mean my intention was and I thought that would be your answer but my intention was just to kind of set the stage for the people who are watching this that kind of think like oh well I can turn the hiking piece off because maybe it’s not as relevant to me when in fact I think there’s a quite a large number of people who have you know maybe started hiking in a tent when they were young and then became old like me and their backs hurt and they’re like I need a camper van now and that maybe they’ve you know whatever found their passion and purchased an RV and And so I think it’s important to set that stage for people. So what does the American Hiking Society, like I know you touched on it briefly, your description, your mission, what are your primary day-to-day things that you’re working on?

Maggie Peikon:

So our volunteer vacations are really cool. That’s a really big program for us. It happens across the country. It’s a great way to get involved and give back to trails, and they provide an incredible opportunity to learn more about the hard work required to maintain and build trails across the country. I think when a lot of people are walking on a trail, they’re not necessarily thinking about the people that are there putting trail markers in, and making it clean, and adding garbage piles, and the pit toilets, and there’s a lot that goes into maintaining those spaces that everybody likes to enjoy. So those are weekend and week-long trips that bring together volunteers in really incredible locations across the country, beautiful spots to visit, or bring your RV to, bring your camper van, however you prefer to get out there, and they’ll take partake in trail building and trail maintenance. There’s no experience required, so the point of entry is really easy. If you like to hike and you like to get outside, you’re going to be taught exactly what to do and how to do it out on the trail. I actually just attended my first one out here in Utah, and it was a really cool experience to get back to. One of my favorite trails out here.

Brian Searl:

I will tell you, you’re right. People don’t think about that. Once in a while, I will. I’ll go on a super big, up a side of a mountain for 7 or 8K, right? Like I’m near the top and I’m like and who the heck build all these stairs Like are they crazy? I would never do that Like I love nature and I want to give back but I’m never digging out stairs 7ks up a side of a mountain, right? But I really appreciate whoever did But yeah, I think that you’re right like it’s it’s amazing to me like talk a little bit about that organization and how that kind of network works because I It’s so critical like like you’re not like people are not using a machete to chop through the forest to write like this is This is putting it up to what I’m what I mean is there these this hard work that they’re doing is opening up the outdoors to Millions of people who never would have touched it before right had the path not been there for sure I don’t think I would recommend heading out on a trail with a machete and just trying your hand at things like that

Maggie Peikon:

The volunteer vacations do give you some ownership of what you’re doing and learning how to do it properly. So if you want to pick up trash, that’s a really great point of entry for cleaning up a trail. And I highly recommend doing that. But we partner with a lot of land managers and federal land managers like the Bureau of Land Management, the U.S. Forest Service, Fish and Wildlife Service. When we go on these volunteer vacations, we’ll have one of those hosts joining us. So a park ranger will teach us how to build those stairs or put in water bars and things like that. So you’re not going out there completely blind and on your own trying to figure out how to do it. And you really do learn a lot about the tools and how to make those things on the trail to make it a better experience for hikers of all skill levels.

Brian Searl:

So it’s structured and organized. It’s not like, all right, you volunteer and just go pick up your shovel at six. It’ll be at the same time. Do whatever you want. Take it left, take it right, go up, down, whatever. Sometimes I think that, though, especially in the back and forth up the side of a mountain. I’m like, really? You couldn’t have done this straight for me? It’s a long way.

Maggie Peikon:

I promise the switchbacks are worth it. They tend to make it easier on you. That’s what they’re there for. Yeah, that’s true.

Brian Searl:

Yeah, no, so talk to us about like what else do we need to know about hiking like again? This is this is I would say it’s to be fair the first time that I’ve had somebody on the show Directly related to hiking like I enjoy hiking. I’m not gonna sit here and lie and say it like a 20k anymore But I definitely like I love the payoffs. I’ll hike 6 7 8 K, right? And I enjoy just being out in nature and being disconnected for all the AI geeky stuff I talk about like that’s still a passion of mine right you get off my phone. I don’t want to touch electronics

Maggie Peikon:

Totally. I am an avid hiker myself, and that’s one of the things that I enjoy the most is to be disconnected, especially as someone who is on the computer most of the day and working remotely. So I don’t get a lot of human interaction. So this is very nice. But I would say one of the most important things for hikers, whether you’re an advanced hiker or a new hiker, is to know what the 10 essentials are and to bring them on every hike and If you’re an RV camper, you can stock them in your RV in a nice little package and grab them, throw them in your pack, and be on your way. It will just help you stay safe out there. So that’s just basics like appropriate footwear, GPS or a compass, a map, water, obviously, food, some rain gear because weather happens, safety items like a flashlight, a fire starter, a whistle, something that you can alert if you need help. a personal first aid kit, a knife, or a multi-tool, sun protection, sunscreen, sunglasses, sun protective clothing, and some kind of shelter from the elements, like a space blanket. And a bonus would be to bring a garbage bag and disposable gloves. So if you come across trash on the trail, you can pick it up safely and dispose of it and leave it better for the next person that hikes behind you.

Brian Searl:

Do you have all that chain?

Shane Devenish:

Except for, yeah, except for the sunscreen. I’ve got a question. Is there groups of hikers that would go to a campground for example, and get a group, a bunch of sites and then go camping together?

Maggie Peikon:

Sure. I mean, I’ve done it before. And when we do our volunteer vacations, we do tend to do group sites so that everybody can be together. for that particular experience, but my friends and I have done group sites plenty of times for hiking trips and stuff like that.

Shane Devenish:

So if you’re a campground who’s got hiking as one of their amenities, it’ll be a good thing to do to advertise group camping for hikers.

Maggie Peikon:

Yeah, so that you have like a little base camp where you can have your breakfast, lunch, and then head out on the trail together.

Brian Searl:

Yeah, it’s an interesting like, if we look at it from a campground perspective first, and then we’ll like transition into the RV too. But if we look at it from it, because obviously, if you’re in a campground, and you’re a campground owner, like the people that you want to bring into your park from a hiking perspective, like Shane is talking about, or obviously, we want to eventually get them to buy RVs, right? Or stay in the industry. If you look at it from that perspective, if I’m a campground owner, and I like I obviously know people who like hiking, enjoy the outdoors, How do I as a private campground owner who’s focused on more of the upscale RV type amenities and features and services, how do I reach out to those hiking groups and say like, hey, we have the experience that you’re looking for, but also we have something perhaps even better or different and you can still

Maggie Peikon:

go to your hiking trail and enjoy nature and be alone and like enjoy all the things and then you can come home and enjoy this plus a pool or plus a right yeah well i think it’s worth obviously sharing what trails are nearby to the campground but maybe leaning into that like oh you get these comforts and these enjoyable experiences well like you said the pool so you went and hiked your 10 miles you’re hot you’re sweaty and now you want to cool off and you can come back to camp and have a really nice experience so

Brian Searl:

Is there ways that we can reach out like in, like, I think just maybe that’s me with my marketing background that like I would put that on a website anyway, right? Is there ways that we can reach out to those groups who maybe aren’t even considering private RV parks or owning an RV or like, is there ways that you think we could do outreach, like working with organizations like yours?

Maggie Peikon:

Yeah, I think that that definitely works. You can partner with something like an all trails so that people know that there are trails near your campground that they can go and access. Any kind of social media is going to be a good way to get people’s attention as well, but not totally my area of expertise. But I would say there are absolutely ways that you can connect with the hiking community more.

Brian Searl:

You’re a hiker, right? We’ve established that. So what would make you want to go stay at a private RV park versus in your camper van? And again, I guess your camper van can go to the RV park, but you understand, I think, what I’m saying, versus a state park with less amenities or something.

Maggie Peikon:

Yeah. I mean, truth be told, I don’t love vault toilets and things like that. So it’s a nice If there’s a campground with a nice bathroom and a shower, that’s very attractive to me. I don’t have those amenities in my camper van. I have a very basic setup in there. Having a shower, having a flushing toilet, Running water.

Brian Searl:

That’s what they’re kind of what I’m trying to get the perspective of, right? Because if you put like, and I’ve had many conversations, we do like hundreds of websites for people where we’re doing SEO for campground owners and stuff. And so and so we look at like, how do I portray one recent examples I’ve had with a couple of people this week is long term camping for people who are electrical workers or traveling nurses, or, you know, how do I create a page on my website that talks about what is important to them? I’m not a traveling nurse. I don’t know the answer to that question. I can guess, I can ask ChadGBT, right? And that’s going to take me a long way. But that window into, like, what if I create a page for, you know, that talks about all my trails, but is geared toward the hiker? Why should the hiker come to me? And then emphasize the fact that I have these beautiful, like, that’s the main feature set. Because maybe I’m as a hiker, I’m not interested as much in your pickleball court, but I’m interested in your bathrooms, right? Like a telling a story, right? I think it’s just important to, like, not that you revamp your whole website to focus on your bathroom, but there’s an area that for hikers, if you’re near those trails and that audience makes sense to you.

Maggie Peikon:

Definitely.

Shane Devenish:

You better not get those two confused, Brian. Which part? Which two? The bathroom and the pickleball court.

Brian Searl:

I mean, there’s new sports being created all the time, Shane. Who am I to judge? It’s 2024. How do you think this crosses over Phil into the RV industry? Phil or Eleanor, right? How do we cross this over into the RV industry, right? Because obviously if you’re… We’ve talked about that easy path, right? If you’re a hiker and you start out and maybe you have a love of camping and you have a tent and then you graduate to a camper van and then you graduate maybe to an RV. Are there other ways that we can get this demographic interested in seeing the benefits of the RV lifestyle?

Phil Ingrassia:

Well, I’m just glad Maggie considers herself an RVer owning a camper van because some of our research has shown that people that are in this growing segment of van owners don’t really consider themselves RVers. This whole hashtag van life movement is a little different and obviously something the RV industry is embracing because You know, on the motorized side, that is the fastest growing segment. And it’s a recreational vehicle still. Yeah, vehicle sales and certainly it’s super important in Canada since so many van campers built and sold or built in Canada then sold in the U.S. So that’s great news. And Shane, you know, we saw some great destination campers last month at the RV manufacturers open house in Elkhart. It’s unbelievable what the manufacturers are doing. in that space right now.

Shane Devenish:

Yeah, couldn’t agree more. There’s so much room with the added second level in a lot of those units. They were outstanding looking.

Brian Searl:

Talk to me about the second level of RVs and why, if I’ve already hiked a trail, I want to hike up to my loft.

Shane Devenish:

Wow. Just kidding. Maybe you’ve got another couple of seconds. No, but Brian, they’ve got second levels on either end of these destination trails.

Brian Searl:

I think I saw Alliance posted one. Yeah, yeah, beautiful rigs for sure. What else we want to talk about, guys? We’ve got hiking, boating, we’ve got the whole gamut here about to erect. You guys, I feel like I’m handicapping the conversation by continuing to talk. What do you guys want to talk about?

Shane Devenish:

No, no, it’s fascinating to hear about the hiking. You know, you know, I think, remember that one guest we had one year or one month, I should say, Brian, about the stargazing? And, you know, we talked about groups for stargazing, like all these amenities at a campground could go in their RV and experience. And, you know, it’s something that we all can advertise, you know, better.

Brian Searl:

It really is interesting. And I’m sitting here with my marketing brain thinking about, like, what we’ve talked about. And I’ve sat here and I can’t believe this never crossed my mind. But I’ve counseled so many people on creating pages for the traveling nurses or for the electrical people. I’ve counseled so many people about having a dedicated page for long-term camping that shows how close the hospitals are and the grocery stores, because it’s a different mindset than the overnight camper, right? I’ve even counseled people on reaching out to creating pages dedicated on towns that you want to show up for SEO that aren’t your town, right? To expand your reach. And I’ve talked to people about social media, about creating those buyer personas, right? the hiker, the single traveler, the family with kids, the whatever. But in all that time, it has never crossed my mind to actually create a page for the hiker for the buyer persona that I already have that I’m talking about on social media. It’s never crossed my mind to create a page for the hiker or the and it just makes complete natural sense to me, doesn’t it?

Shane Devenish:

Yeah. Well, especially when you’re doing all these campground websites and one of the amenities is do you ever have hiking?

Brian Searl:

Well, yeah, like you can’t do 20 pages, right? But if you are, if you are in the proximity to a trail or a trail system or a national park, or someplace that a significant number of people are coming to go hiking, then it makes sense for you as one of your demographic types that, again, tell the story, right, of your campground, but tell it from different perspectives in different ways. And sometimes you got to put yourself in their shoes. And it’s the same thing with the RV buyers, right? If you’re targeting somebody who likes boats, then that’s a different rig that the dealer is showing them, right? Versus one who’s interested in hiking or a toy hauler or, you know, camper vans or whatever, right?

Eleonore Hamm:

Yeah, we have personas, I was gonna say, so does Phil in the US, the different personas of the RV you know, consumer, the demographics, you know, it’s usually the young adventurer, or outdoor adventurer. And so, you know, some of the marketing is targeted towards them. But I would say both for the dealers and the campground operators, you know, regardless of whether it’s a product that they’re trying to sell, or if it’s, you know, a service that they have at their campground, that they should absolutely embrace that in their marketing and have you know, a page or dedicate some of their, you know, social media or, you know, get an influencer in that space or work with someone to really focus on what they’re trying to promote in their area or their product. I would also say, you know, work with your local tourism bureaus because they have, you know, whether it be guides of, you know, activities or things that are there. I mean, there’s, you know, obviously you can take an ad maybe in some of their publications, but work with them because, you know, often that’s where people start to, you know, to look at, I mean, maybe they’re going on to chat GPT and getting their whole itinerary from AI. But I, you know, a lot of people still consult, you know, the tourism and travel websites. And that’s a great partnership for campgrounds and dealers to be involved in.

Brian Searl:

Yeah, I mean wherever they’re getting their information, right? As long as your tourism bureau, your city, your campground, your RV dealership, your hiking society or whatever, a trail, your boat dealer, boat rental place is listed, right? The key is that they’re getting that information in their hands. But yeah, I think maybe too often like And I’m obviously guilty of this because I didn’t think about it, right? But maybe too often we’re just kind of lost in the, this is the information that I want to provide as the owner to get people to the purchase. And they don’t think that the story of all these different people who are experiencing and viewing and perceiving their parks and RV dealerships and boat dealerships and hiking trails in a different way, you could increase sales by slowing down the process.

Phil Ingrassia:

Right. You know, and that’s kind of where I was getting at when we’re talking about breaking out of this RV lifestyle marketing mentality that we were in for quite a while. And some of the research that we’ve done shows that, and this is for all outdoor recreation for everybody, is that people do not care about complicated equipment and all this other stuff that, that, you know, we may think is really cool. But especially first time buyers, they’re not looking for more complexity in their life. They’re looking for simplicity. So if you can show the end use, okay, this is a means to an end of hiking, birdwatching, boating, fishing, whatever it is, that’s much more appealing. This will help me make my life easier and not try to scare me with all this technical jargon about whatever it is, the latest bells and whistles of the RV itself, that has a much better chance of hitting home and creating new buyers than focusing so much on the unit itself or whatever widget you’re trying to sell.

Brian Searl:

Yeah, I mean, the unit is important, but again, we all work together, right? The American Hiking Society can partner with the RV dealers, can partner with the fitness, the American Heart Association, for example, right? And then you can build a feature in the RV that says like every, you know, two days, the hiking poles are gonna pop out and be like, hey, it’s time to go walking. And then we can encourage people to go hiking and take care of their health and that there’s a thing for the RV people to sell, right? Maybe not, I don’t know. But interesting ways that there’s like cross paths, right like obviously but but I think that’s it’s interesting just the Because we see this in some of the niches right and I’m not in the RV industry But just what you said we see the the small storage spaces for like I think I I think there was an RV that we were talking to me It was a custom one Phil like a custom build guy who was talking about places to score ski poles and snowboards and things like that at one point and But that kind of stuff, they clearly identify a niche for them, right? But there’s clearly enough of an audience. And so I think, again, those things, those items, like you just said, play much better in a consumer mind of, oh, there’s a place to store my snowboard. I understand that. That makes my life more convenient. I don’t need to put it underneath the rig in the storage, right? So how do we do more of that?

Shane Devenish:

you know, cross selling is one of the things that not everybody takes advantage of. There’s, this is another great opportunity, you know, the hiking society, give them some, you know, information on, on RVs and, and in turn, you know, get some dealerships to throw some stuff up hiking.

Brian Searl:

I mean, I think I really think it’s on. And maybe I’m just going to put it on myself, right. But I almost want to go to like, everybody who comes to us for a website design, because we don’t charge per page, right? Like, I want to go to everybody who comes to us website design and say, like, this is what we think you should do. Let’s identify four target audiences. Let’s identify a cut. And this, this is just standard. with our websites, because if we wait for people to come to us with the idea, it’s not going to get done. But if we take the initiative and say, like, we know and have data and can see by talking to all the stakeholders, the industry, that if you do this, you will get more business. Let us do it for you. We’ll help you. We’ll figure it out. Right. I mean, I think people taking the initiative is what it’s going to take to move some of this stuff forward because we can talk about it. It’s great. But what happens after the show? Right. That’s all on us, right? As having the discussion here. Yeah, and an ongoing discussion. Yeah, that never ends, right? And this is just, again, I’m being selfish and using my own use case, but there’s lots of ways that we can do this with the snowboard storage or thinking about how hikers view our private campgrounds or you know, boat rentals and water access, making sure our sites are long enough for boat towing, like lots of stuff, right? So, you know, Maggie from the American Hiking Society, what is the best way that you feel like you could work better with the RV industry?

Maggie Peikon:

I think that like talking about like the stargazing or like maybe fall foliage and the best trails that are near you and things that you can offer that hikers are really excited about and what gets them on the trails. being able to share those kinds of things that you have to offer at your particular RV camp is definitely a good point of entry to get hikers excited to come visit your space.

Brian Searl:

But let’s flip it, right? How can campground owners benefit the American Hiking Society too? That’s a good question. It should be a two-way street, right?

Maggie Peikon:

Yeah, I think so. Well, you’re providing a safe space for a hiker to Come and rest, I guess, is definitely a big perk. I have to think on it a little bit more how campgrounds benefit hikers beyond that scope. But like I said, you know, also providing resources and utilities that they might not have in a tent or a little bit more comfort. Those are definitely perks as well.

Shane Devenish:

Those nice washrooms.

Maggie Peikon:

Clean your hiking clothes, clean your socks, fill up your backpack with goodies. Hot tubs, hot tubs. Laundry facilities. Yeah, those are all really great perks.

Brian Searl:

Even just the small signs of encouragement, Shane, like a speaker playing when you open the bathroom door. You did a great job.

Shane Devenish:

You got to the top of the mountain. Oh, I thought you were going to go somewhere else with that. So did I. Maybe not in the bathroom. Yeah, you did a great job.

Brian Searl:

Way to go. Rick, what do you think from a voting perspective?

Rick Layzell:

I think collaboration is part of the game, right? I think it’s easy to perceive that RV and voting compete. And I think, Phil, you said it really well earlier. I mean, there’s some families that they do have to make a choice, but there’s a ton of families that both fits to some degree. And I think the industries could intersect a little bit better um to work towards you know at the end of the day and look I I like to play golf and I like to do lots of other things and and go to Costa Rica but we want to keep Canadian families in the Canadian outdoors and RVing does that, boating does that, hiking does that and I think you know finding ways to come together and whether it’s through member communications or you know showing the memberships that you know we’re talking together and and you know looking at how do we benefit, because there is a ton of crossover. There’s definitely crossover.

Brian Searl:

And long term, the Tesla is going to drive itself. The boat’s going to drive itself. So you can have the RV. You don’t have to worry about what it can tow. The boat will drive right next to you and behind you in the lane. Right. And you’ll all get to the campground at the same time. Brian, I’ll be long retired before then. Come on, Rick. You are. You’re at least 30 years younger than. Oh, no. I was Brian.

Eleonore Hamm:

Brian, I was going to say, I had an article, there was someone on the radio a week or two ago that we’re talking about pants that were going to help you hike and self-propel you a little bit as well. So if you were getting a little bit tired going up that hill, you could have that extra momentum. So we’re almost there, self-walking.

Brian Searl:

You don’t need a hot tub to relax in at the campground. Maybe that’s a negative thing, Eleanor. Maybe you’re just like, I’m just going to walk home, even though it’s 40 miles.

Rick Layzell:

I want those pants, Eleanor, for the treadmill in the morning. You said I got my 10,000 steps, and I didn’t do anything. Yeah, I forget who it was.

Eleonore Hamm:

It was a brand name. I forget who it was, but they were something like $5,000.

Brian Searl:

Yeah, they were $5,000 US, is what the headline read. I didn’t read the actual article, but yeah. So all right. I know we’re running a little bit over here. Maggie, where can they find out more about the American Hiking Association?

Maggie Peikon:

Americanhiking.org.

Brian Searl:

AmericanHiking.org. Rick, where can they find out more about the Ontario, or Boating Ontario Association?

Rick Layzell:

BoatingOntario.ca.

Brian Searl:

All right.

Shane Devenish:

And then Shane? www.CRVA.ca. No, Shane, I didn’t say you could give out your URL.

Brian Searl:

Oh. You have to ask permission. No, I’m kidding. Any final thoughts, Shane?

Shane Devenish:

Yeah, I got a comment from my daughter. I told her I was on this big show today, and she ended up watching us for a little bit.

Brian Searl:

And then we lost her interest, probably when I started talking, right?

Shane Devenish:

I think so. It was probably a quick one. Quick view. Sorry, Brian.

Brian Searl:

But that’s good. Yeah. Eleanor, any final thoughts?

Eleonore Hamm:

Well, thanks. Thanks for having us. And it was great to meet Rick and Maggie. And I guess we’ll see you in about a month’s time.

Phil Ingrassia:

Phil? Yeah, absolutely. We’ll be in Las Vegas for our joint convention of the RVDAs, and we’re looking forward to that and seeing everybody.

Brian Searl:

Yeah, I think by the time we meet, we’ll be able to talk to you guys about how that went, right? End of November. Absolutely. Well, thank you guys. I appreciate you being here for another episode of MC Fireside Chats. Maggie, I appreciate you being here from the American Hiking Association, Rick from Boating Ontario. I know it’s not your normal audience, but hopefully we’ve done you. a little bit of a solid here by having you guys on and appreciate all of our recurring guests as well. We’ll see you next week on another episode guys. Take care. Pleasure.

Shane Devenish:

Bye everybody.

SPEAKER_00:

This episode of MC Fireside Chats with your host, Brian Searle. Have a suggestion for a show idea? Want your campground or company in a future episode? Email us at hello at moderncampground.com. Get your daily dose of news from moderncampground.com. And be sure to join us next week for more insights into the fascinating world of outdoor hospitality.