MC Fireside Chats – November 9th, 2022

[00:00:00] 

Brian: Welcome everybody to another episode of MC Fireside Chats, my name’s Brian Searl with Insider Perks. I standing, sitting. Sitting, I always mess up something at the beginning of the show. [00:01:00] It never fails. Sitting at the national ar outdoor Hospitality Conference in Expo and Orlando Floater where we’re all about to maybe survive or not a hurricane that is currently coming over us, the airport’s closed.

Nobody knows that they’re gonna get outta here. KOA doesn’t know if they’re gonna get in next week for their show, but we are safe here in front of a beautiful tent masters set up here that is part of the expo that opens tonight at six o’clock. That’s why you hear forklifts behind us, cuz they’ve kind of let us sneak in here under the radar.

With me, I’ve got Zach from Clockwork and Connor from Sage Outdoor Hospitality. Guys, you wanna briefly introduce yourselves and it’s first time I’m the recurring 

Connor: Yeah. Connor Schwab , head of Outdoor Hospitality at Sage Outdoors. We help launching and expanding g lamping and RV businesses throughout North America.

Brian: Can you guys hear him okay with a mic between them? 

Good. Okay. Cool. Okay. Yep. 

Zach: I’m Zach Totenberg. I’m with Clockwork architecture and Design. I lead our outdoor hospitality studio. So we work with new and existing campgrounds, g lamp ground, our park owners anybody that’s, [00:02:00] that’s in that outdoor hospitality space and we help ’em build their dreams.

Awesome. Pretty fun business to be you. 

Brian: Glad have you guys here and you’re gonna be a part of the Glamping show going forward. Second week every month. We’ve obviously got Ruben Martinez here and the American Glamping Association, glamping up, and Irene Wood from the Fields, Michigan Guru of all things, right?

Irene 

Irene: Gu ru of nothing. That’s how that works. 

Brian: Anything, what’s, what’s new on your end? Before we talk about, I guess I should thank our sponsor for the show today as Horizon Outdoor Hospitality before I forget that they’re a new sponsor of the glamping shows, so super excited to welcome them. But Ruben, Irene, anything else going on in your world before we dive into a little about what’s happening here too?

I’m 

Irene: gonna let you go first. No.

Ruben: How’d the season end up? I know nobody was count, nobody was counting down the days, but how did, how did everything wrap 

Connor: up? 

Irene: Actually today was the very last day of camp, so we blew everything out. Got everything wrapped up. We’re close up for the season and we’re ready for already starting to think about 2023, which is just so crazy, right.

When you think about it, by the way, and I know [00:03:00] Connor, you just leaned in. Thank you for that report that you guys just put out, that glamping report. 

Connor: Our pleasure, our pleasure. Yeah, 

Irene: really good. Read. Lots of good information. We’re using it right now as we’re thinking about what’s next for the field, so I appreciate it.

Connor: Yeah, 

and we’re actually hoping to launch a more investor focused report either at the end of the year or kind of early in 2023 that’s a little bit more focused towards owners, operators, and investors. That’ll be a little bit more heavy and. Rates, occupancy, revenue, unit types, operating season, things like that.

So keep an eye 

Brian: out. Were you with that too, or independent 

Connor: or? I think so. And probably air DNA as well. Okay. So the, 

the laboring report that was released at the glamping show was really focused on the, on the end user, the camper, the consumer. Consumer. And so we want release one that’s a little bit more focused for the owners and the operators who are making strategic decisions for the business.

Brian: Okay, awesome. So I, I don’t know if anybody knows who’s watching the show, but [00:04:00] KOA show is next week. So Connor partnered with them on the initial glamping report that they released during Ruben’s glamping show there, which was a couple weeks ago. Everybody still talks about it. Ruben, all the great networking that happened there.

Just tons of people and just the ability for them to kind of connect with people all over the world. Nonstop great things about it. So thank you again for putting that, you know, obviously David and lots of other people worked on it. Right. But. 

Ruben: Absolutely. Yeah. I’ve got the easy job. I can just go around and talk to people and people a lot harder than I do to make sure everything gets where it needs to be.

So I’ve got the easy Yeah, looking, 

Brian: see if we can do this. I’m move this, we’re, we’re leaning towards you cuz I have this tiny little laptop speaker in my hand that we’re trying to hear you from. So I’m just gonna put it over here in the middle of the shot and see if we can make happen. There we go. We got a little like gangly cardboard box there.

Roll or this is how I roll. Really. These guys are just kind of here shocked and uncertain about what’s happening, but so what else is new in the 

Ruben: glamping world? Yeah, I guess my question, Irene, for you would be, [00:05:00] I mean, I’m always curious and we can go in any other direction you guys want to afterwards, but every year the industry gets more mature and more mature and we learn more and we learn more.

And so now that, you know, it’s always hard in the middle of a season or the beginning of the season to pick your head up and say, okay. Let me kind of assess and reassess and, you know, here’s what’s what I learned or here’s what’s new maybe for next year. But as now, I know today’s kind of the last day for camp.

Yeah. But have you had a chance or is there any kind of big learnings from this last season? Cause I feel like it’s a compounding factor. Like every year we learn more and more and more and we, we figure out more and more and more and we get more and more confused as well. Yeah. It’s more and more complicated as well.

But just curious if there’s any, you know, from, from your camp, any, any 

big learnings from this last year? 

Irene: Yeah. And this is really interesting because there are, and some of them are, you know, when you’re one of the, I don’t wanna say one of the first, but when you’re an owner [00:06:00] operator who has, now you gotta think four years under the belt we’ve had the luxury of being able to move some lever.

That maybe other businesses couldn’t. Right. They’re too large. They make some commitments that, you know, a small, mighty, nimble operator can do. So two things I learned. One of ’em is, and I, I’m actually one of ’em is I think that we’re gonna have to make some adjustments to the accommodations. So we did tents with bathrooms, and I think that it’s becoming, I hate the way this sounds, but for us, maybe our guest, that the, it is really hard to meet a guest where they’re at, who is coming from Camping and still providing them a superior experience while you’re still navigating through a couple things.

And one of ’em is bugs, heat cold. I mean, tents are, It for a consumer who is a high end consumer, which I would say that we fit in that $400 ADR kind of rate or, you know, spot. They don’t want [00:07:00] that. They don’t wanna see a stink bug, they don’t wanna see a black beetle. They don’t, they don’t, they wanna be 70 degrees with no humidity and we’re just not able to meet that gas with a tent.

So I’m rethinking through what an accommodation looks like. Secondly is, you know, I think we told you we made an adjustment to camp because we are small. We went adult only. And while that increased guest satisfaction, it decreased revenue. And part of it was, but I think a lot of people still wanna share that experience with.

And so that has me thinking through how does that look in the future? So what we did was we went through and we said, okay, we’re gonna be adult only with the exception of these few weeks. And then during these few weeks we’re gonna allow kids. And then during those kids we had. Camp actually quadrupled in size, right?

Because every parent came with 3.7 kids and you know, revenue was increased during that time because you have extra head count and they’re spending more money [00:08:00] on food and beverage. But then we returned back to our adult only while our adults loved it. And like I mentioned, customer satisfaction was incredibly high.

What we learned was we took a hit in revenue that I was like, damn it, not that I didn’t know. I mean, we knew that that was gonna kind of be the case, but how much was it gonna be the case? And you know, when I look back through Connor, your glamping report, when you do see, majority of people wanna camp with their kids.

So it, it’s in line with some of the data that I saw in your report as well. Now it won’t change what we do, we’re gonna still continue with that model. I think it’s just because again, our camp, this particular one is small. You know, we only have 20 units. But I think those were the two learning accommodations needed me.

We need to make some adjustments on accommodations to meet the customer. And then the second thing is, is that you know, we’re gonna continue to maintain the adult only, but we’re gonna add more kid camp weeks to kind of maintain some revenue where we took a little bit more of it in the chin this 

year.

Brian: I just wanna be clear, we’re [00:09:00] not laughing at you or anything you’re saying, Irene, we’re laughing because football is massive and literally every person with a forklift and trash can is walking by our Is during, 

Irene: it’s fine. Listen, it’s not a screaming baby. It’s not, you know, um, an animal, a raccoon in a tent.

It’s all, you know, you’re fine. . We’ve lived through it all. 

Brian: But yeah, it’s, it’s really interesting to hear those kind of anecdotes from you and just what you’ve learned and, and as you continue to grow. And, and I think it’s so important to kind of constantly be reevaluating what your operations are and making sure they’re always a best fit for the awesome orange shuck that’s be being nonstop too.

Right. Beside me too. . But yeah. What do you think, Ruben? Have you seen that kind of similar? Geez, he just whipped by us, didn’t he? He’s going like 30 anyway. Ruben, have you seen some similar kind of data from other people you’ve talked to? Similar type of 

Ruben: thoughts you guys might want throw in a helmet if people are zooming by, you know, just in case you guys don’t get taken out and make sure life insurance is up to date.

I think that’s it. You know, I, that’s interesting because that has been, there’s a [00:10:00] category of questions that people typically ask, which are in the, the category. Should I be family friendly, right? Or, or not? And, and what does that look like? Do I do food and beverage? What kind of onsite activities?

And there’s always these front end questions of, you know, you can’t have your cake and eat it too, in certain ways, right? You’ve gotta figure out a strategy that’s gonna be in line with the theme and execution that you wanna carry out and, and do that because as soon as you try and. , everything you become your brand almost becomes nothing.

Right? And that’s tough. Yeah. There’s, there’s some great purchasing power with families, but there’s also, you know, certain things that when there’s a bunch of kids running around, what does that do for the person who pays, you know, that, that extra amount per night, you know, and, and I think there’s a, there has been, will continue to be this tug of war between this kind of mid-level tiered decisions of do I offer this or do I not offer this?

Do I offer this, do I have wifi or no wifi? Like, what does that do to the [00:11:00] experience? And you know, fortunately or unfortunately, there really isn’t a perfect answer for, it’s like, whatever’s gonna work well for you and stick with it and then, you know, just be comfortable with what that means for your brand because you know, to the, that’s interest.

Like nobody else can answer that but you, right? And it’s great that you figured out like what’s gonna work for you and then stick with it. Cuz no matter what, if you go out and then, all right, now we’re gonna do. Family friendly then like, oh man, man, I wish we, you know, would’ve stuck with, it’s almost like you’re always missing the other side of it.

And, and the grass is always a little bit greener and you just can’t always be everything you have to choose and make some hard choices along the line. So you said you’re gonna basically stick with the same model 

Connor: next year? 

Irene: Yeah. You know, it was really interesting and I’ll just kind of share. You know, when you look at the room rates, you do take, like everybody knows when you have to bring in costs and extra bedding, you get a little bit of bump on revenue.

So that revenue was lost and then the sec, but what we did see [00:12:00] was the spend per guest was actually higher by about 50%. So where we made an adjustment on rooms, maybe adr, not adr, maybe occupancy wasn’t as high, or revenue wasn’t as high because you didn’t have the extra kid fee or extra person. We were able to make it up mostly in spend per guest with things like, you know, obviously Connor and Brian, I don’t know if you guys know, but at the field we do, we have a spa on site, we have a food truck, we have Amalia on staff, so we have yogis every morning.

So we kind of, we target, I don’t wanna say the yuppy cuz that’s not the right word, but, you know, just somebody who’s left the city and they’re coming in for two, maybe three days and they want everything to be curated. They do not leave site. So if we can pull every penny out of them while they’re on site, then that’s our goal.

You know, we’re, last year we had about a 35% per room rate expenditure. You know, now we’re floating in the 45 to 50%. You know, they’re consuming all the things that we can [00:13:00] possibly throw. Sailing bike riding, wine tasting cocktail class you know, farm to table dinner, all the things that are on site, which is great.

We just gotta kind of continue to find where that still meeting the needs of guests who have kids and they wanna bring their kids and have that exact same experience with them and preserving it for what we believe to be as an adult only spot if we’re gonna stay in this adult only lane. 

That’s us.

Zach: I got a question for you. When you two, your bookings, are you just booking the accommodation and, and calculating the feed just based on the unit or are you doing it by guest? We were, we were in a really interesting session here yesterday and they talked about that exact issue, especially with families and kids.

And they said, you know, yeah, this, this unit normally would rent for, I don’t know, pick a number, 250 bucks a night or something like that. But at Safe six, and if a family wants to come and, and they want to bring [00:14:00] four kids, when they do their booking, they input, you know, we have four children and these are their ages, and then it adds additional fees for the number of guests.

And they looked at that and said, well, you know, it’s, it’s all those other things on site that you have a larger party, you have a bigger family, more, more people. So are you just booking up by the accommodation or have you ever considered doing your bookings by the number of guests that are staying? 

Irene: So we did, we always do it by the number of guests that.

So two guesses, kind of what the price is for the room. Anything above that is an additional fee. And that’s where, when I was explaining to Ruben earlier, that’s kind of where the lost revenue was. When you have people who have kids and they’re bringing four kids to a tent, well, it doesn’t seem like that, that revenue adds up pretty quickly.

And so when we went to the adult only model, what we did was we lost room revenue. By that I mean extra [00:15:00] persons, but what we gained in my view was two adults will spend way more money on site because they’ll use the spa, right? They’ll use, you know, they’ll rent bikes and they’ll, you know, bike down the bike trail.

They’ll go to wine tasting class, they’ll show up for cocktails, they’ll do the chef dinner. What we find is when people have four. They wanna get the hell outta Dodge just to kind of entertain the kids at the beach, go to the ice cream shop, maybe get some can, I mean, it’s just a different level of entertainment that we just don’t have the infrastructure for.

I mean, we really wanna, we’re a respite. We’re in the middle of a working blueberry farm. You know, we have you know, we tried to keep it simple, like, simply sweet, right? Just everything that was onsite was purposeful without feeling like we had overtaken the land. And and so that’s one of the kind of, when we were talking about what were the level levers that we moved, we moved to the shear.

One, you know, affected room revenue [00:16:00] negatively. The other one positively affected camp usage, right? All the ancillary segments to the business that. So 

Brian: awesome. 

Can we improvise a little bit here? Steven, are you Steven? Steven is from Tent Master. He’s over here. You can’t see him in the camera. We’re gonna move it.

There’s Steven Steven’s from Tent Master we’re sitting in front of, hopefully you can’t see me now cause it shows much better. But Stevens from Tent Masters. If you wanna tell us a little bit about what we’re sitting in front of and we can just go look live on the show. Absolutely. Can we do that?

Absolutely. It’s probably gonna turn into a disaster, but we’ll try it. Go ahead. Take him through a tour. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. 

Steven: Come on in. This is our common 10 right here. Now this is one of our smallest tents that we sell. This particular model sleeps five as is. This is one of the smallest tents we sell without a bath.

We have much larger sizes, but this is one of my personal favorite tents. It’s actually one of our best sellers as 

Connor: well. But this one is 

Steven: 224 square feet. And if you step inside here, One thing you’ll notice [00:17:00] 

Connor: is that it doesn’t look like 224 square feet. 

Steven: You actually have quite a bit of room here. We have what we call a triple bed over here, which is a full and a single on top and then a queen bed in here.

But if you pair this with a communal bathhouse, you have a nice affordable tent for 14,000 or 24,000 fully equipped that you can really utilize communal bathhouse and get a good family of five in here. And really, it’s 

limitless with the possibilities that 

you 

have. We’ve seen a lot of our customers actually put a bathroom in here, a shower toilet sink, and have a couple tent.

Of course, it does come fully equipped with a kitchen. You do have a sink and a gas stove that’s not pictured currently, but you can get a gas stove in here. And you have a nice covered porch where you guys were recording the first bit of your meeting. And you also have these tall windows right here and on the side here.

And we did this, led in a lot of natural light. But this is our common 10, and you can either get it with two bedrooms as you see here, which is default, and it comes with this bookshelf connector right here in the middle. Or you can actually take these canvas panels [00:18:00] off and have one open floor space a blank canvas per se, to really create whatever kind of floor plan you’d like.

Brian: I mean, I’m sure you guys have heard of 10 Masters before. Do you have any questions for the, we’ve got his expertise here. 

Ruben: Hey, Steven, Ruben here. How are you? Hey, doing well. How are you, Ruben? Good, good. 

How, Hey, how’s it going? How’s everything? How’s going, shaping up for the year? Kind of curious to see what kind of questions people are having at this point of the year.

I mean, what kind of trends or you know, what are people really looking at now that I feel like the last few years there’s been all sorts of cycles, all sorts of different demand changes, kind of what’s, what’s happening now in the world of. Kind of the, the 10 manufacturers and what are people, you know, really looking for, you know, what, what kind of needs do they really have at the moment of what are you seeing basically?

Steven: Okay. No, great question. So outdoor hospitality has been absolutely blowing up the past few years. This [00:19:00] particular year though post covid, we’ve really gone full hedged forward. We’ve seen a lot of people really want to attract, not just couples, but families. Before glamping was always a millennial craze, and it’s still, but we’re seeing a lot of older generations going, glamping family, going glamping, and really people of all backgrounds that wanna experience something different with nature.

And that’s where glamping really comes into play quite special.

Connor: Anything else for Steven while we got him here? 

Ruben: I guess, Steve, what do you, what do you say to people? I mean, something we were talking about earlier is, you know, tents have a certain life cycle, right? There’s only, there’s only so long that they can actually really last. There’s, there’s more and more quality now than there is ever.

There’s more and more solutions to, you know, winter. Climates, but are you still seeing kind of this division of people having to choose more permanent structures versus kind of tense structures? Or how are people thinking about, you know, the life cycle of [00:20:00] tents versus the cost of 10 versus life cycle of.

More cabin parts, models versus lifecycle? 

Steven: No, that’s a, that’s a great question. It’s one that I really like being asked because a lot of people, they think tents last a couple, few years, sometimes more, and a lot of times they’d be, right Now our tents, I love to emphasize their temporary non-permanent structures.

They’re just tense. However, we started in 2009, our manufacturer did, we’re in 54 countries worldwide and we’re going on 13 years now in operation in many locations. So while our tents may be classified as a temporary non-permanent structure we’re going 13 years strong and we expect to see 15, 20 plus years with a lot of our tents.

So from a traditional cabin standpoint, they still may have us beat in terms of longevity. They’ve been around for 40, 50, 60 years in some parks and still going. But I mean, these tents are not something you’re gonna put up but have to take down and replace in a few years. I mean, you’re gonna get a really good long life cycle, one that’s still yet to be determined for us, and it’s a really neat.

You, you need [00:21:00] structure that, you know, you can’t really find it A lot of other places it’s glamping at fines and there’s just something really special about experience of tent and staying in it while still having all the amenities that you would in a hotel. 

Zach: Steven, you hit a couple really good points there.

You know, another thing to think about is from that lifecycle cost, it’s the upfront cost too. So a cabin may get you more of a season, it may last 40 or 50 years but it’s gonna cost, you know, five, six or more times. Yeah, yeah. But getting a 10 like, like this up and running would, would cost. There’s a, a much bigger process with that and getting it permitted and getting it approved and temporary non-permanent structure.

There’s still a process, but it’s not as, as exhaustive. Absolutely. You hit the nail on the head. It’s, it’s about the experience, right. A cabin is still only gonna generate so much, and[00:22:00] 

the rentals are gonna be comparable to every other cabin that’s available in your area. Whereas when you come in with something unique like a 10 and a really, you know, individual Instagrammable guest experience your, your nightly rental reflects that and, and you can a lot more too. Absolutely.

Absolutely. I mean, this industry is all about the experience and it’s a really nice experience. It’s a really neat industry to be a part of, and just to come in here and walk into something like this where at a $14,000 price point,

it’s all in.

Can, 

I 

Irene: can hear you, but not them.

Connor: I’m sorry, say that again. Did you 

Ruben: for a second? Oh, you guys are back now. We lost there for a minute.[00:23:00] 

Steven: Can’t hear us. 

Connor: Yeah, now 

Ruben: I can.

Connor: Oh, you got us back now.

But if you guys can up over each other again, like 

Brian: come out here and look around, like where we’re at. We’re 

Connor: in the middle 

Brian: of the ex. Are they across Valley? Is there driving forklifts around truck that just asked us there. So it’s kinda a together little thing. We were just trying to get in. 

Steven: We’re super excited to hear, but 

Brian: so like that, so you 

Steven: guys can’t hear us.

Oh, there we go. Ire said if you stay out the 

Ruben: 10 services, , 

Steven: is there anything Steven, we should know 

Connor: about the cell blocking of 

Steven: your tent? You know, it’s news to me. I know he’s tends to be great in just about any kind of weather environments. You can lead this unit up year [00:24:00] round, even in climates such as , New York, Minnesota, even no 

Connor: Nova 

Steven: Scotia, Canada, they’re also great here in Florida.

If we got a

we do, I would, I would probably take a town, you know, protect your investment insurance opportunities and companies out there. So I definitely recommend that. But as for cell block wifi blocking guys, that’s 

Brian: for 

Connor: owners. If you, maybe you should. And some 

Steven: of the best limping experiences I’ve had personally is no cell service, no wifi, me nature and a nice wing structure you.

Experience and there’s something special about 

Brian: that. Yeah, definitely agree. Well, thank you Steven. I appreciate everyone we gotta talk about here. We’re gonna go and sit down here in front of 

Connor: our little setups. 

Ruben: Yeah. Yes. My, my next question for the group was gonna be, cause I’m always interested at this stage in, as we get into this like October, November, December, it’s a funky, it’s a funky time in the industry because you’ve got people who are [00:25:00] either about to hit their high season because they’re in these very warm climates and this is when they get a lot of bookings.

And then you also have good majority of people that are just, you know, hitting the reset button, looking to expand, looking for their next decision. They’re looking to figure out how to adjust and they can’t, you know, in this space, those that just do business and as usual tend to struggle in the next year.

Right. And not, not saying there’s nothing wrong with if you’ve got four units and you kind of. Run your four units next year, but usually people are making some adjustments, right? Based off of what they’ve seen. So I guess my question to the group is what are, what are those, what are those things that we’ve seen this last year that cause a reaction to make some changes in people’s operations for the next year?

Right? Cause it’s, it’s one thing to see something, but then it’s another thing to actually make those value added decisions [00:26:00] to then say, this is what’s gonna help me next year. And so I kind of bring that up at this point in time during the year, because typically this is when people are saying, okay, oh crap.

Like what, what just happened this last year? Okay, what do we need to do to get ahead of it for next year? And just kind of curious to see what you guys have seen. Was it based off of more expansion customer experiences and preferences? Is it more about, I mean, kind of, it really is a broad question, but I’m just curious because.

It happens every year. And those that, that are smart enough to kind of pay attention throughout the year, sometimes it’s even just minor changes that they make that allow for them to really be set up in a different way. So that’ll just be my question for the group, if anybody has seen anything that, you know, place a ba a bed on next year.

Zach: I think it’s a great question. I’m glad you brought it up. We’re actually on, on the architecture side, the design side. We’ve had clients that, that opened this year that this was their first season in business. And [00:27:00] we knew with, you know, their, their limited budget that they weren’t gonna be able to do everything upfront.

We worked with a, an awesome property and awesome owner in North Carolina. They had a very, very small budget. And we master planed the whole. Site. We got everything through their, their county planning and zoning and their approvals. And they said, you know, we have a budget right now to do eight of the 20 some tents that we had designed, and they had two months to get ’em up and, and operating before their main season hits.

And so we, we got it done, we got ’em open. They opened up 4th of July. And I spoke with the, the owner, the client last week he called and he said so this weekend is kind of our last weekend. We’re, we’re starting to wind down a little bit. It’s starting to get. But he goes, we’re actually getting more inquiries.

And so we raised our prices and then we got even more [00:28:00] inquiries and they’ve never operated through the winter months. And he’s like, I, I feel like, you know, maybe we should, and so can we, can we add heaters? Can we do some insulation? Can we, can we kind of stretch our season? And so I, I talked through some ideas of things that are easy that they could do right now, like adding a heated mattress pad to the bed.

You know, it’s 150, 200 bucks to, to order one on Amazon. And that tent may still get down to, you know, 55, 60 degrees overnight. But if your guests slip down in between those sheets and it’s, it’s 92, 98 degrees inside. That bed, then they’re still comfortable. You’re improving the guest experience. Geez.

Well, your body temperature is 98 degrees, so that, you know, but no, we talked through some of those easy, quick things that they could do right away to, to stretch, you know, get it, it may be just three weeks in the fall and three [00:29:00] weeks in the spring, but that’s six weeks. We just, you know, created another month and a half of, of operation days.

And then he brought up, he said, you know, we used that. There was an existing bathhouse that was on the site and it was a cinder block building. It was all open inside, not a lot of privacy. And he said, you know, we really got dinged on that this first summer. And a lot of our guests commented and said, you know, I love the place.

The tents are amazing. The site is, it’s right on a beautiful river. But he said, we, we really had a lot of. Negative reviews and negative comments from guests on the bathhouse. And he said you know, I think we’re ready to move forward with that. And that was one of the things we had, had done the drawings for it, we had designed it, but it, it wasn’t in their startup budget.

And so they said, you know, we made some good money over this kind of first shortened season for us. But that’s one of the things that we want to go and get done in this off season and, and make sure that that [00:30:00] is completely done and ready to go for next year. You know, I think it’s, I now is the perfect time to, to get started on those projects.

Or if you want do an expansion or an addition or if you have code issues, you had some compliance issues. Now, now is the time to dive into those cuz it’s not gonna affect your, your main operations. It 

Brian: is really interesting when you talk about seasonality though, 

because I think there’s a huge difference here between people who are starting 

pure glamping resorts, people who are adding glamping to campgrounds.

Absolutely. Are used to it being seasonal. Yeah. And I think that a lot of these consumers who are coming into glamping, whether it’s on a Campground or by itself, is their first outdoor hospitality experience expected to be open. Yeah. Or at least a good portion of 

Connor: it. Right. Is that fair? Yeah. 

Yeah. And we’re, you know, winter glamping and if that’s going to become a thing, is there’s not a lot of people doing it, particularly with soft walled canvas based structures.

And I’m really curious to see what happens. You know, definitely folks that are using hard [00:31:00] wall structures, you know, we see that Airstreams and modern cabins, log cabins are, you know, on average open for 10 to 12 months a year. But then canvas based structures six to nine. And so I think it’s interesting when you’re thinking about your site and you have to obviously consider your local weather, you know, what you want to do.

And we see both models working successfully. Typically, like a canvas based structure will make more per night. But it, when you extend that over the whole operating season, maybe a hard wall structure 

would make more that’s fair. That’s, and I think it’s important to keep in mind too, where you’re at, your location, your location you know, has, has a big effect on that.

I think a lot of people think or assume, and perhaps wrongly, that you know, the further north you are, the shorter your season is. And you know, I’m, I’m working with a, a wonderful couple that has a site in Minnesota and they’re doing domes. And that was something we talked about. And he brought up a really good point and he said, you know, [00:32:00] Zach, you gotta remember we’re drawing from our area.

We’re drawing people from Minnesota. We’re not wimps. Like, yes, we think people in this area will still come out and camp with us in November or December. I think they’re rolling. I mean, I live in Calgary, so No, no, and and much the same way. You know, you can, you can think, oh, If I’m way down south, you know, if I’m in, in Phoenix or, or Dallas or, you know, somewhere that has really pretty mild winters, they still have a season too, because in July and August when it’s 110 degrees out, nobody wants to be outside and in a tent and without air conditioning.

So I think, you know, your sight and where you are, it’s, it’s always gonna impact that a little bit. 

Brian: And it’s the mindset of the people again, for sure, whether they’re Minnesota or, 

Connor: or whatever. But it’s also the, I’ve 

Brian: never, the people who have gone Camping whole life have the seasonality built into the mindset.

Right. So they’re more willing to accept that too. [00:33:00] 

Ruben: And I, Irene, I mean, to follow up with that, Irene, like from your property where you’ve got this higher end client and you already have a spa, you already have a small yay, you already have, you know, all this stuff. It’s like, at what point do you say like, what.

What the FL would anybody else want? Right? Like, do you ever get to this point where there’s gonna be a ceiling of, because of the clientele that you have, does it become difficult to say, oh man, what, what could be, are they expecting more and more? And then at what point, what else could you provide? Like, you already have all this stuff.

Irene: Yeah. You know, it’s interesting because I was, when you were talking about winter, I was like, no way in hell. And, and not that, but I was like, there’s nobody that’s gonna schlep, none of my clients would schlep a bag of anything, you know, through the snow to kind of get to it. But you know, as people continue to glamp, right?

I mean, we have a lot of people now that fly in to see us who have stayed at an under canvas or collective retreats, or a fire [00:34:00] light or, you know, and so they’ve experienced different things. And so I think that one of the things that we always and continuously have to do is, , maybe there are some staples that never shift, right?

It’s like why you always go to certain places because you know that this is always gonna be on the menu or that you know, like your grocery store, like the back of your hand. You know, we have guests now that are gonna be in our fifth year in a row, right? But I think what we’re able to do is mix up the experience by leveling up or using the space uniquely.

You know, with 30 acres, there are lots of little nooks and crannies that you can continue to recreate magic. Maybe, you know, each year you know, we have this, like next year, one of the buildings that we had that we were using as private dining space, we’re actually converting to a speakeasy. And so it’s constantly reusing your space in a very unexpected way so that a guest will continue to spend their money on the ancillary [00:35:00] things.

So it’s readjusting, reusing, reinvigorating. We were gonna put in a, we have a cement slab that we use for a wedding. You know, paddle is, is it pickleball? Pickleball is becoming the hottest craze. We’re converting that cement slab that’s used for weddings into a pickleball core. And then where we’re like, okay, well how do we amp that up?

All right, well, we’re gonna do a little hut and a lemonade stand, but it’s really gonna be spiked lemonade, right? Cause pickleball is known to be a, you know, so it’s the constant thought to how do we continue to maximize the space and stay true to the trends that everybody. The life cycle of trends that all of our guests who are consumers are doing, because that’s what they want.

We’re all consumers. We want something new and awesome and different and exciting, but why do we still keep going back to the same thing? Because they’re doing it too. Yes. I think about it all the time. I’m already like ordering vinyl records for the speakeasy. We’re changing out the front [00:36:00] door to it, so it looks a little bit more, we’re getting a neon light, you know, that kind of flickers.

But we’re doing all that stuff, right? And so that’s the, that’s the fun part of the off season. It’s not revamping, enhancing the guest experience to meet the guest exactly where they’re at.

Brian: Definitely amazing that yeah, the analysis is so super 

Connor: critical. Like, I’m really glad that 

Brian: you’re here. I kind of talk us through that and the mindset of your perspective as, as an 

Connor: owner, it’s 

Irene: that, well, it’s like engineering. I mean, does everybody talk about it? And I know that, you know, when people are, advisors are chatting about something, they’re chatting about something in a way that has them, are they frozen again?

Ruben: I think so. Keep going. 

Irene: Yeah. But you know, like engineers, it’s really easy to kind of sit back and kind of say, this is what’s supposed to look like. But then it’s the actual, when you start to build it or you’re starting to operate it, you have to do different things. You have to respond to what your guests are, and oftentimes your guests sometimes aren’t exactly [00:37:00] who you’re, so that’s the, that’s the actual fun and the talent.

I love it. 

Ruben: Yeah. And I think that’s the bigger, that’s like the bigger point to be curious to see what you guys think about this, where. You look at the history of glamping, therefore looking at the future of glamping and consolidation in this space hasn’t 

Connor: happened yet. Right? 

Ruben: To, to a big degree. And it will, right?

That’s gonna be the next thing that’s gonna be on the, the docket. But 10 years ago there wasn’t as many options. So you would just pick a place to go to and be like, great, it’s got a tent. Looks good. Fantastic. Right now there’s competition, there’s great operators all over the place. Mm-hmm. . And it’s no longer good enough to just put up a tent and operate.

It’s no longer good enough to just copy maybe what somebody else did, copy their playbook. 

Connor: You’ve gotta have 

Ruben: all these different things because the user taste has changed, right? They, they got a taste of, man, I really like this glamping thing. Like what else is. And they don’t always [00:38:00] wanna do the same thing.

I think there’s comfort to kind of like the four seasons of glamping of, Hey, I know what it is, I know what it is, and I’m great. Awesome. But I think the growth in the industry will always be people 

Connor: searching for those new 

Ruben: experiences. The winter glamping. Yeah. I think there is people who are gonna go do that.

People who want, you know, to come to the same property, want something different. You need, I mean, the reality is that you need to now more than ever set yourself apart or else you’re gonna fall behind because you no longer are the, you know, just a big fish at a small pond. Now there’s a really big pond and a lot of fish.

And so you just gotta be, you know, really differentiate yourself, which is just the natural progression of this industry. It’s just, it has to happen. So you need the pool, you need the activities, you need to pick a ball. You need, you know, to be open year round. You ha I mean, that’s how people are, you know, fortunately are unfortunately gonna compete.

Moving forward, because if you’re not, somebody 

Connor: else is thinking about those things. [00:39:00] I think Irene brought up something that was a really good point too, and that’s, you know, meeting your guests where they are always keeping in mind that we are not selling an accommodation, we’re selling an experience and, and, you know, hearing you talk Irene about some of those things that you’re, you’re doing some of those pivots and changes and, and kind of being, you know, flexible with some of your space.

I think that that demonstrates, you know, that you’re really tuned in to your guests and the experience that you’re delivering to your guest. And, and that’s. Speaks to a lot of wisdom on your part and, and that’s what makes good operators, great operators. And, and I think, you know, keeping you in mind that it’s guest experience should be what drives everything that we do, every one of those decisions that, that gets made.

So I, I thought that was just great and I really enjoyed you telling us about it. 

Zach: Yeah, I, [00:40:00] I totally agree. And I, Irene, earlier you were talking about, you know, making the tough switch from, from being open to families versus going with couples and, and you know, that might have in some categories been a hit on revenue this season.

But I think for next year, you know what, what you see when you make those tough choices and really define your customer and your experience is whereas before you might have had couples and families coming to your site and they would have an experience that might’ve been a four outta five because you know, catering to one doesn’t necessarily cater to the other.

So all of your customers might be getting more of a four out of five experience. But moving forward now that the entire experience is dedicated to one customer, you can really knock the socks off of all of them. And now they’re having these five out of five experience. And then that’s where the organic growth and the repeat customers come in, where they’re gonna book again next year, and then they’re gonna start bragging about it to their friends and tell ’em, oh, you’ve gotta go to this place.

It’s an amazing getaway. They’ve got all these fantastic experiences and amenities. And 

Connor: [00:41:00] no kids 

Ruben: and 

Zach: no, and no pesky kids. And so I expect you know, making those tough decisions and really having an incredible experience is gonna pay off for you. Yeah. Yeah. In the future seasons. So 

Connor: well done.

Irene: Just one, one other thing I wanna add to anybody that might be listening as they’re kind of thinking through, and I remember maybe it’s the, the ability have the privilege of perspective, but one of the things that We did originally when we first started the fields was we never went on a third party booking platform.

We didn’t go on a Travelocity, we didn’t go on an Expedia. And partly was a conscientious decision to ensure that our branding and marketing strategy reached the guest that was choosing us based on the experience versus based on a cost, right? So they weren’t, they weren’t typing in Expedia. Cuz I feel like the Expedia user is looking for the best value, right?

They’re looking for the cheapest value or the cheapest cost in a region. And one of the things that it did was, you know, now a hundred, well, it’s always been a [00:42:00] hundred percent of our bookings are direct bookings. But it really found our guest identity. It made it very clear exactly who we were servicing, and it makes the decision making very easy because we don’t have people choosing on.

Well, at the same time, somebody choosing unexperienced, which oftentimes are two different people. And it’s, it’s made it easier to make decisions or move levers and be able to see an outcome versus having a diversified portfolio of people who are like, I’m traveling to South Haven Haven. The fields has it couponed them and they show up and they’re miserable because they’re Camping.

You know, for anybody that’s listening, that was a conscientious choice for us to make sure that we grabbed the right guest. Now, some other people might not be able to do it cuz they’re, they need to fill, you know, every single tent or accommodation that they have, but,

Do right to start. 

Zach: Yeah. And I’m so happy you said that. [00:43:00] A friend of mine, Blake Smith of Walden retreats, he, he took the exact same approach and you know, wasn’t using OTAs. And a big emphasis for him was, he was like, we, we really want to own the end to end customer experience. It’s been a huge part of.

Is priming guest expectations before they come on site. And that might be, hey, you know, there, there might be weather or, you know, critters or, or whatever it might be. But like calling the guests before they came and letting them know what to expect from their experience so that that can be matched.

And then, you know, they’re, they’re getting what they signed up for. And then also on the follow up on the backside, you can follow up with them as well. Take feedback, work on a next book gain, something like that. But I was just curious if you do that at your site, Irene, with like something up front in terms of like managing expectation cuz you get that, that luxury being that they go directly to your site.

Irene: Yeah, we do a lot of that. We actually have a person that we have on. [00:44:00] That’s like one of my, I wanna say expenditures that every year when I’m like, oh, should we be spending this to have a personal person answering the phones and making contact with every guest? But the reality is, the answer is yes.

She pays for herself, you know, tenfold cuz she not only does the initial contact, so our booking platform allows us to do some three pre-arrival emails. You know, they’ll have like their pack list, what to expect, what’s gonna happen the week of their stay. Then our, like concierge reach out directly to every single person makes notes.

So I can read in the notes if they were able to make contact with them via email or phone. And then all the guest notes that are in there. Are they celebrating their fifth anniversary? Is it their 40th birthday? Their dog’s name is Bo. All of those things that you would expect. And then afterwards we actually follow up with every single guest with a postcard.

So we do, we’re a very high touch organization. It was the only way that I was ever gonna [00:45:00] do this business. I do it because I’m absolutely crazy about hospitality and the guest experience. Most people know I don’t love the outdoors that much. I’m actually a recovering camper. I have five brothers and a boy scout in the house.

So my version of Camping was very not what I do for guests, but the reality is, is that I am absolutely obsessed by making sure that every guest is wowed in the way that South Haven Michigan can. And so those are the ways that we do it. Probably very similar to your buddy. 

Connor: Well, 

Brian: and all of that goes into part of the experience.

Right? Right. I mean, we’ve talked to, you know, some of the GL resorts that we do, we’ve had conversations 

Connor: about building custom reservation systems with Congress, 

Brian: you controllable experience, instead of having a cookie cutter approach, like you get, like a lot of these bigger systems are fantastic, but if you’re really going niche and really going after the experience, you’re really wanna customize every aspect of it.

Then these can be built as part of e-commerce platforms that feed the CRMs that collect the data that was talking about. Then, [00:46:00] you know, email people happy birthday when they’re actually automatically right. Without even thinking about it. And those kinds of things. Just again, one more way that they’re gonna remember you come back to you because you were special to everybody else.

Connor: I, you brought up a really good point. I actually sat in a, a training session yesterday with folks from New book and they were talking about some of the features that they have in their software and absolutely all those things can be triggered automatically and they do. You know, a a 48 hour before email and a 24 hour before and a day of, you know, check in like that, that constant communication back with those guests they have it triggered even to where when they check out.

A follow up email gets sent and says, Hey, we just wanna make sure, you know, everything was perfect for your stay. And if it wasn’t, please tell us, you know, what can we improve? What can we do better? And you know, so there, there’s certain our booking platforms that already have that integrated that we’ll do that all you can custom, you know, [00:47:00] tailor your message and what you want to say.

But you don’t have to have one of those big expensive platforms either. You know, it, it may be you know, like Irene mentioned, it may a person, it may be staff that, that really focuses on that and, you know, does that, yeah, it all depends on 

Brian: what you need. I mean, for most people, I think the new books, the camp spots, the everybody else are gonna work for them.

Yeah. But in some cases, if you really want go that extra mile and you can think of everything else, then there are ways to do it in technology. They’re pretty amazing. 

Ruben: And I 

Connor: think the biggest, 

Ruben: biggest kind of concept there too, which I don’t think is. We talk about it a little bit because of how important it’s, but it’s, it’s also very simple and straightforward and, and what we’re talking about here is really being very, very clear with expectations.

Right. Because I can’t tell you the amount of times that we’ve seen it over the year where, and Irene, you’ve talked about this too, at your camper, people freak out. It’s like, there was, there was a bug, there was, 

Connor: there was a spider in the tent or 

Ruben: I’m leaving. There was a snake. It’s like, yeah, no shit.

You’re in mother nature. Like, what [00:48:00] did you think was gonna happen

Brian: for you 

Ruben: guys as, as glamping becomes as gateway to the outdoors? Just a lot of people haven’t had that experience before. Right. And, and being overly transparent with, here’s what this is. Like if, if there is no wifi. You let people know that if the bathrooms are subpar, you let people know that whatever, whatever it happens to be.

Cuz sometimes people try and hide that because they’re like, oh, this isn’t the the best part about my property. So I don’t wanna have photos of, you know, maybe this side, like the more transparent that you are, people walk in and say, okay, this is what I expected. When people show up, even if they expected there to be wifi, you didn’t advertise there was or wasn’t or whatever it was, and there isn’t wifi, they lose it, right?

And they say, well, you know, it doesn’t matter where they are, the beautiful scenery or the accommodation. They just get triggered by these small things that were expected to be there and weren’t there. And so it is the job and it’s a hard job to be [00:49:00] overly transparent of here’s exactly what it is, here’s what it is.

Because for many people, this is already so much out of their comfort zone, right? They’re going out into a remote 

Connor: place, so you’re staying clear from the American 

Brian: associa. There’s a snake in your tent. You should let your guests know that there’s a snake 

Connor: in the tent. Right. 

Ruben: You should have a, that’s just, yeah, that’s part of, that’s 

Connor: part of the experiences.

You can just have a snake infested 

Ruben: Tent and you can actually charge more 

Connor: for it. 

Brian: People are probably fan 

Connor: It’s Instagrammable. Definitely. Yeah, exactly. 

Ruben: Selfie with selfie with a snake. Yeah. You charge 

Connor: more for rattlesnakes. You bring up a really good point with that though. And I think it goes back to that guest experience component and.

And one of the things that I, I like to say and, and that I talk with our clients about there, there’s one thing that’s common sort of throughout the glamping and outdoor hospitality industry as a, a way that creates a positive guest experience and that is [00:50:00] authenticity. You know, when we look at the, the markets, when we look at the demographics, the people that are, are really making up more than half of the guests in, in glamping and Camping today.

They’re mostly from the millennial and Gen Z kind of generations. Those are the age groups that, that are funding the industry right now. And I, I can say it is cuz I are one millennials have grown up, you know, with technology, we, we can smell bullshit a mile away and finding really good, true, authentic experiences are rare.

And, and so I think yeah, being open, honest, transparent about it it it’s giving the guest guests that authentic experience of, yes, this is exactly what I expected and, and I feel like I’m, I’m getting a good view and that this is something that I enjoy and something I wanna come back. Again. 

Brian: So basically we did this whole show wrong because we didn’t prepare them for the 

Connor: noise and[00:51:00] 

Ok. I got we’re showing the Good Side, the beautiful Tent Masters 10 . 

Irene: You know, I think it’s really interesting because it’s very easy when, and I was, as I was listening to you all, I kept thinking, you know, I run the fields. I have 20 tents. It’s really easy for me to manage the guest experience a lot of things that we just talked about.

You know, we have a checklist that we go through when they check into their tents and it’s like, listen, if you leave cheese out on your desk, Tui’s gonna show up. I mean, it’s like all the things that you would expect. But the reality is, is that for As and Ruben, you know, this, this industry is exploding as things start to get scalable.

You know, it’s like how do you replicate an operator at 10 different. And you know, I think that one of the things that we’re really excited about, and I’ve, I’m happy to share anything and everything that we have with everybody, is that we’ve kind of came up with some training manuals that you could hand to anybody who was kind and who had [00:52:00] a servant art, who was one of your employees.

And you said, these are the steps to walk through to really ensure that you were setting your guest up for the best experience by managing expectations from check-in while before check-in, right? Pre-arrival, arrival and then departure. And I think that that’s where some of the formalization of hospitality is gonna be so exciting to watch because operators are going to have to become much more sophisticated, particularly if they want to scale, because they can’t replicate themselves at 20 different locations.

But yeah, we have this checklist and it’s literally hilarious cuz somebody’s like, I, you know, will follow up with them just as you described. And we’re like, Hey, listen, I didn’t know that there was going to be something. And then we’re like, well, on this day you signed this piece of paperwork and you initialed next to X.

You know, and I’m, you know, and we [00:53:00] kind of make it funny. We’re like, you know, we, I’m sure you were so excited and to eat your s’more that you forgot to read exactly what you were signing. But you know, you, it, it does protect somebody from going, oh, well, they never even said anything to me. You know, we’re getting sophisticated.

It’s a lot of fun. This industry is incredibly exciting. And to be an operator in it is, you know, I, I feel a real privilege. 

Connor: Super excited to see where this 

Brian: industry goes. I know we got a couple minutes left here before we gotta wrap up. 

Connor: I feel. As always, I 

Brian: feel like I say we talked for two or three hours about some of these subjects, right?

I mean, we’re here at the AR again, you know, national Hospitality Conference and Expo. They’ve been talking about things like EVs and how the industry is gonna change. We had a great session at the grandpa show in October about off grid solutions and just all of new ideas and things are changing. You.

I’ve got on my phone pulled up here as well, looking at the outdoor recreation economy. Released the report today that says outdoor recreation accommodated for 1.9% of the total GDP for the United States[00:54:00] 

for outdoor recreation, Michigan. So just huge. It continues to grow. Glamping is obviously part of that or be part of that, but it’s just really exciting to be part of this industry and see how it’s gonna change. And we’re just in the beginning. 

Connor: Yeah. And it’s, it’s been interesting too, coming from a glamping background and kind of being at the glamping show.

Everybody’s very, I think, well informed and educated and following the trends and glamping to coming to Ar Vic, which is, it’s, it’s a great show. And it’s, it’s predominantly RV and Campground owners that are, are at this. So these are all operators. These are all people that have run successful businesses and they have established resorts and, and they’re starting to kind of wake up to that too and going, you know, what’s this glamping thing?

And or yeah, they were talking about that like two years ago. And I remember thinking, oh, well, it’ll never [00:55:00] last. And, and now every other Campground around us has at the cabins and covered wagons and tenants and we, we gotta get with the program. So it’s, it’s been really. Kind of cool to, to see the shift in the perspective here.

As, as all these Campground owners are, are fully embracing glamping now and, and not just, you know, dipping a toe in and not, oh, we’ll try one or two. No, they’re coming in and they’re putting 20 in their parks. Well, 

Brian: we got a couple minutes here. Any final thoughts from Ruben, Irene, 

Steven: Connor, Zach,

Ruben: or we’re just lagging? No, I think we covered a lot. Thanks for thanks for taking the time to connect today. That was a, as always a good conversation solving glamping theoretical issues, one, one month at a time. 

Connor: So thank you guys. Gotta be better. Next, next next 

Brian: year, next month. We’ll try not to 

Ruben: have background noise here.

No, that’s what we’ll [00:56:00] do every single time. Now, everybody will have to bring their Their own front loader. You don’t have a forklift, you can’t hop on the call. 

Brian: It might work. It would at least match people. We would set expectations, right? That’s important thing. So there we go. We’re communicating with people.

So thank you guys. I really appreciate you joining us again for another episode of NC Fireside Chats glamping episode. Again, we’re here at ar o c. There’s so many just amazing things that happen in this industry. Part of all these educational sessions, the expo, aa expo work with them on the American North American Court, and I’m sure they’re gonna cover that during their conference here in Orlando too.

Hopefully everybody’s safe in Orlando with a that’s coming over us. And again, we’ll see you guys here in a month year back with us again moving in Irene, Connor and Zach. So thank you 

Ruben: guys. 

Connor: Take care. Thanks everyone. Thanks. Bye 

[00:57:00]