MC Fireside Chats – November 5th, 2025

Scott Bahr: Hello everyone. Welcome to MC Fireside Chats. I’m Scott Bahr, I’m the president of Cairn Consulting Group, and I’ve been asked to host this week, so I’ll try not to mess it up. Maybe add a little maybe a little add, add a little extra, humor to this week. I don’t know what we’re really gonna do here, but anyway, I’d like to welcome our guests today Simon from Camp Maps and Rafael from Blue Water.

If you guys just wanna take a minute and introduce yourselves. Everyone probably knows who you are already, but I think in case there’s anyone new out there, just kinda let ’em know what’s going on and what you do. 

Rafael Correa: Go ahead, Simon. You lead us off, brother. 

Simon Neal: Okay. Yeah, I’m Simon, the founder and CEO of Camp Map.

So we’re a digital platform that helps campgrounds and outdoor hospitality improve marketing and guest experience with premium digital maps. So we create interactive maps, printable maps and all stuff that goes with that. Integrate with your booking platform to help with the customer journey. And also on site with things like GPS navigation and search.

Rafael Correa: Fantastic. Rafael Correa president and CFO of Blue Water Hospitality. We are a campground owner, developer and third party manager based out of Ocean City, Maryland, and we manage some of the nicest RV resorts, basically from coast to coast and from north to south. I’m happy to be here. 

Scott Bahr: And as I mentioned, I’m Scott Bahr with Cairn Consulting Group.

We do market research and analysis. And that’s what I was doing this morning right before this call. So sometimes after I get immersed in. Like data stuff, it takes a minute for me, my brain to readjust to actually interacting with people. So anyway, so please bear with me as I try to readjust to the real world here.

But yeah, we, as we were talking about this is it’s the season where all the conferences, many of the conferences are jammed together and there seems to be a lot going on. I know that Simon, you just had one that you attended and I think Brian was there. Do you want to, take a minute and let us know how that went and what you find out and what we can learn from it?

Simon Neal: Yeah, sure. So I was at the Croatian Camping Congress, which is the equivalent of the OHC in Croatia. So it’s the National Association for Campgrounds over here and takes place once a year. And in Croatia you have about 300 campgrounds in total, but that really includes the really micro mini ones. So I’d say around a hundred, 150 kind of medium to large size campgrounds.

It’s a very strong business here in the region, generally because of the geography, the amazing Adriatic Sea and the mountains and the sun. So it happened in Sibenik last week, which is a town in the middle of Croatia down towards Split, which many people will know hosted in a hotel and it was pretty well attended.

Lots of people turned up and I was there we go every year because this is our whole market. But Brian also attended just to get a bit of a different flavor to what he is used to. And there’s a couple of interesting takeaways. So the first one is a kind of seasoned summary of Europe.

So we always get a nice breakdown ’cause as well as the creation camp sites who attend. There’s also lots of the big marketplaces. From the German market, the French market, the Dutch market, British market, and all the rest come and present. Their feedback from their kind of channel or guests coming to Croatia, what they think, what’s good, what’s bad.

So there’s a nice mix of information and a nice mix of statistics. So I think the summary was that the season was good, not fantastic, but good. Averages of kind of six to 10% growth depending on the country. But there was definitely a trend of more stay at home rather than travel too far. So that was very distinctive, particularly in some markets.

And there’s actually a very funny story from Holland. So that’s northern European country, super small, highly densely populated, terrible weather next to North Sea. And every year it’s like a migration from Holland to Italy, Croatia France, Southern France. But this year the migration didn’t happen.

But it was way less. Economic reasons. All the rest cost, pricing. We know that. But the response was that there was so many people staying at home. And another thing, Europe had great weather this year, completely off the trends. Lots of sun. So Dutch people stayed home, campsites, campgrounds were all full.

And then there was a huge amount of complaining and negative feedback from the local population that there’s just too many people here, we can’t handle this. This is not normal. Too much noise. So that was coming off the end of August. So in September, October, the government reacted immediately and said, okay, this is not good for us.

We’re gonna, or is it good for us? And they put up the tax or the VAT, like the sales tax on outdoor hospitality. So it went from 9% to 24% for next season. An immediate reaction, fantastic thing to hear. So that’s either gonna, push them all back to Southern Europe again, or they’re gonna stay and the government’s gonna cash in those more money.

So very strange trend, but just shows you what happens. 

Rafael Correa: Gigantic tax. 

Simon Neal: Yeah. 

Scott Bahr: Yeah. 

Simon Neal: Big difference. 

Rafael Correa: I thought you were gonna say like from nine to ten 

Brian Searl: Hey guys, can you hear me?2 

Rafael Correa: Yes, sir. 

Scott Bahr: Yes. You’re interrupting. 

Brian Searl: Sorry. I like, I’m delayed, man. I’m like, I’m in, literally I’m sitting. Can you guys see me? Oh, where, what camera is that?

Scott Bahr: Are you above or below that? 

Brian Searl: That’s the manhole. 

Scott Bahr: The manhole there. 

Brian Searl: I’m right behind the manhole apparently, and I can’t figure out how to change my camera to the other thing. I’m on my mobile phone anyway. We’ll figure it out in a second. I’ll turn off my video, but yeah, I’m in hold on. There we go.

That one. Yeah. There we go. This is my ugly face. I’m literally in Montpelier, France in a, I’m sitting in a restaurant at the top of the restaurant, outside in an old town of Europe. So like I had to like, try to figure out how to get internet connection here. My phone doesn’t work and so I’m on my girlfriend’s phone, which apparently gets signaled right next to mine, but mine doesn’t.

So I’m here. How can I be of service? Probably not. 

Scott Bahr: Simon was just giving us the rundown of the show and what the, what’s been going in Croatia with the market. 

Brian Searl: Oh yeah. It was a good show. It was good to see Simon, who has the same birthday as me, by the way. We didn’t know that. 

Simon Neal: Yeah. Yeah. Discovered that after a couple of glasses of wine. 

Brian Searl: And we’ve known each other for four years.

And so his wife is yelling at me like, how do you not understand that you have the same birthday? You should have figured that out like a month into whatever. Which, women are always right, so I’m not saying she’s wrong. 

Simon Neal: Yeah. 

Rafael Correa: Takes guys a little longer to get to that level of personal information.

Brian Searl: Yeah. There’s a massive gap, right? A week Yelena would’ve figured it out and then four years for us. Yeah. 

Scott Bahr: Yeah. 

Brian Searl: Pretty big. 

Scott Bahr: And usually it just happens per chance. Something happens and it’s like what’d you do yesterday? Ah, went out for a drink for my birthday. Oh, okay.

And you may or may not remember it. So. 

Rafael Correa: They do say that men mature a little slower than women. 

Brian Searl: That’s true. Yeah. I’m still going after my eighth or ninth birthday for maturity level yeah. Yeah. 

Scott Bahr: Sometimes we get. 

Brian Searl: But I’m having good wine while I enjoy it, so they don’t check the maturity level when they give you the wine.

They just check the physical ID. 

Rafael Correa: That’s perfect. 

Brian Searl: Yeah. What are you guys talking about? What can I help or join the discussion? 

Rafael Correa: Yeah. I’m. I’ll I’ll piggyback. Simon’s he, I’m currently at the Sun Communities and Jellystone Symposium. So Jellystone Symposium just wrapped up last night.

And then Sun Communities was on a day behind. And so we’re coming into the tail end of the Sun Communities elevate Conference down here in Orlando. So it’s sunny outside, but I’m in here with you boys because I’m loyal and faithful.

Brian Searl: It’s interesting is that the first, is that the first year the Jellystone conference has been in Florida? ’cause it’s usually in Ohio, right? 

Rafael Correa: This is the first year that, that I know of that they piggybacked it with the Elevate Conference. As most people know, Sun bought the Jellystone brand a few years back and they do the Elevate Conference every two years.

I think symposiums every year. But just I guess this year they decided to buddy them up. ’cause there is such a giant overlap. It was very convenient for me at Blue Water, right? So we managed a lot for Sun, but we also manage a lot of Jelly Stones and some of those Jelly Stones are not Sun’s Jelly Stones.

So it was actually really nice for us to get together with a lot of our team members that we don’t get to see very often ’cause they’re out there doing the Lord’s work at the property. And so we had a nice little internal kind of Blue Water powwow where we were here and said the farewell, not officially yet, not till March, but Rob Shooter announced his retirement.

Brian Searl: Yeah. John Burke take over. 

Rafael Correa: From Jellystone. Yep. And that was big news. And then also got to meet for the first time the new CEO of Sun Communities. And so he was introduced to the greater population of the company. This. 

Brian Searl: Is he as smart as you, Rafael? Is he as smart as you? That’s what 

Rafael Correa: I would venture to say he’s a little bit to a lot of, bit smarter. 

Brian Searl: Okay. Alright. You’re being humble, I think, but, okay. 

Rafael Correa: Super sharp guy. I’ve got to meet him personally. And just first class total gentleman. I’m sure he’s drinking from a fire hose right now and meeting, the over 800 people that are here.

But certainly met him and he left an impression on me that and I’m excited to see what he does with Sun Communities from here. 

Brian Searl: Awesome. That’s good to hear. Yeah, that’s good to hear. Where do you wanna take it? Scott? You’re the host. 

Scott Bahr: We were gonna talk about conferences a little bit more too, that the ones that are upcoming like Simon, I think you mentioned you were gonna come over for a conference or two this fall, this month.

Simon Neal: Yes. 

Scott Bahr: Yes. November. 

Simon Neal: Traveling on Sunday, flying into Louisville. Hopefully, this terrible disaster this morning. Seven people killed with a plane coming off the runway. 

Brian Searl: Wait, what happened? Did I miss this? Where did that happen? 

Rafael Correa: Yeah. A UPS plane crashed in Louisville and it crashed in a, in an industrial area.

And so the, I, I don’t, I haven’t heard the official account. 

Brian Searl: Oh man. 

Rafael Correa: That’s the first official count that I had heard coming from Simon. But it was I think yesterday afternoon it happened and it was just it’s horrific and there’s so many, dash cams and angles of the crash that are popping up all over social media, but it was just sad. It was a UPS bound from Louisville to Hawaii somewhere. 

Brian Searl: Man, I’m sorry to hear that. That’s. 

Scott Bahr: Yeah. 

Brian Searl: Yeah. Not a. 

Scott Bahr: So yeah. 

Brian Searl: An upbeat way to, to talk about the show. But let’s, so let’s go to positive, let’s go conferences, right? So do you wanna just talk wait, Simon is coming over here. Do you wanna talk about future conferences?

Do you wanna talk about current conferences? ’cause there’s one going on right now that I’m at. So 

Rafael Correa: Sure. 

Scott Bahr: Alright. Yeah. 

Brian Searl: Where do you wanna start? 

Scott Bahr: Do it. 

Brian Searl: Future. There you can go. Future to reverse. That’s, nobody’s ever done future to reverse. We might be able, we might wanna do that. It’s the first. 

Scott Bahr: You’ve never had me host before either, so things can get outta control quick.

No. Let’s, yeah. Give us the rundown of how things are going there. I saw your LinkedIn post earlier. It looks like there’s whether you have a transformer or something come through and. 

Brian Searl: Oh, yeah. Transformers. Yeah. The SETT Conference. So this is really interesting, right? So I came over here and Simon, I was with Simon and Croatia at the Croatian Camping Conference, was just an amazing conference.

That’s a really smart leaders and amazing things we’re doing in Croatia. And we talked about that I think that last week’s show. But this week I’m in, I’m at SETT, it’s in Montpelier, France, and it’s a conference that incorporates like seven regions in France. So I think there’s, and I’m probably gonna get some facts and figures wrong.

I’m a bottle and a half wine deep, just bear with that. But I think there’s 13 regions in France. France, there are seven regions that are part of the SETT conference, which is Southern France. And this conference, like really I can’t use another word other than humbled me. And what I mean by that is Rafael, like you and I have been going and Scott too and have been going to OHI for years to KOA for years and OHIs probably top attendance depending on whether you believe the numbers that they put out or not is somewhere around like a thousand, twelve hundred, right?

Depending on whether they’re on the east coast or the west coast or is that, would you agree with that, Rafael? 

Rafael Correa: Yeah, I think that’s what I understand. 

Brian Searl: Yeah. So but I expect somewhere between 600 to 800 people average to show up to OHI. Number of parks depending on big groups, small groups, et cetera.

This campground conference has 20,000 people attend. Like 18,600 last year, and they said the first day numbers this year were up 20% from last year, which is somewhere north of 20,000, like 22, 23 if the numbers hold. There are 730 exhibitors across one, I think 10 different massive buildings. Huge building.

Rafael Correa: And this is just for outdoor hospitality? 

Brian Searl: This is just outdoor hospitality. 

Rafael Correa: That’s incredible. I 

Brian Searl: It’s massive. 

Simon Neal: Brian, just to jump in quickly in France, there’s 12,000 campgrounds in France alone. So it’s the biggest number of campgrounds in the whole of Europe, probably in the biggest globally per country.

Rafael Correa: But is it more is it like US style giant RVs? That’s not really the European way, right? No, there’s nothing giant there. So we’re about runs. Pop-up vans and stuff like that. Teardrops? What are we talking about? 

Simon Neal: Yeah, totally. Makes think we’re talking anywhere from, makes a lot of Sorry, tech.

Brian Searl: Go ahead, Simon. You know better than I do. 

Simon Neal: Probably 40, 50%, 10 tent camping. The rest is caravans, small RVs trailers, stuff like that. And a very tiny percentage of big RVs. And the rest is all these, cabins, glamping, mobile home style accommodation, which is becoming more popular.

Rafael Correa: Actually. Got to see Sun Communities purchased the outfit in the UK. So the name is escaping me right now. Holiday Parks in the UK. 

Brian Searl: Yeah. 

Rafael Correa: And they actually, the CFO of Holiday Parks come over and he’s always one of my favorite parts of the presentation. He is incredibly funny and charming on stage and he and he was sharing the model and the how busy their model is. And theirs is a little bit unique. They actually sell the homes, but they can only be second homes for people. And they’re then, and then they get into a rental pool and then people use them as holiday houses. And so that’s why it’s Holiday Park. So they cannot, by law, be your primary residence.

Brian Searl: Do you know more about that? Simon’s from Scotland, so I just wanted to note, curious if Simon knew more about that, but finish. 

Rafael Correa: But they they’ve had a great year this past year in both home sales and people taking holidays at the holiday parks. But I was just stunned by some of the how beautiful right, and nice some of the locations are, and then the units that are on these properties, they were breathtaking.

Brian Searl: Simon, do you have anything to add before I talk or. 

Simon Neal: Yeah, there’s a funny trend in the UK of these holiday parks where. It’s a lot of, seasonal rentals. So it’s a bit different from the campground. It’s much more seasonal, and you also have the situation where people go into retire in them as well.

So you can actually take out, I don’t know, 20, 30 year lease on your slot and buy the hardware. And then ba they basically just, it’s a bit like a caravan park in the US but there’s a bit of a mix, but it’s very traditional. It’s big. They’re all over the coast, really nice. And yeah, different from the standard sort of RV campground play out.

Rafael Correa: And I’ve always. 

Brian Searl: Got my wine, just got my wine pushed toward me by my girlfriend. Sorry, I have to drink more. Continue. 

Rafael Correa: My personal perception of Europe in general is that, it’s a form over function in a lot of cases where it’s like, how it looks is as important, if not more important than how it works versus in the US we are very function over form.

It’s like what need does it meet? And that’s the prioritization. 

Brian Searl: It’s interesting. Let me, I wanna give, oh, sorry. You we’re just lagged, finished your thought and then I’ll talk. 

Rafael Correa: No, I’m good. I got it. 

Brian Searl: So I was just gonna say I, I went into the, these shows with a stereotypical view, if that makes sense of, and I didn’t know a lot about Europe, but the SETT conference has completely changed my view of camping, Europe versus the US.

I, and maybe I, this is over exaggerating, Simon you can disagree with me or not. I think the European camping market, specifically in Croatia and for sure in France is 10 years ahead of where the US is. I really think that, and here’s what. I think that the European market is much more focused on the guest experience, and I think the US is there in some properties, and I think we will get there.

But when I walk through the SETT conference of these 730 exhibitors, you have absolutely everything that you need at this conference to build a working glamping site, mobile home, like cabin rental, whatever you wanna call it, right? Camping site. Everywhere from there are vendors there from like Milwaukee Drill is there for power tools.

They have shower fixtures. They have tiles, they have bath towels. They have like whole huge spreads of like tables and chairs and cushions. They have a whole building dedicated to pool and spa with hot tubs filled with water, with a giant coverings that like go over your pool to make it outdoor pool into indoor, like the atrium glass thing.

A whole thing is set up like they have playgrounds and water slides and this is just massive and everything that they, everything they do is from start to finish. And in American side, you would go to do most of that at whether that would be staged through your cabin company that you purchased.

They would have vendors they work with or you would go to a Walmart or a Home Depot and purchase all these things, right? But they’re all here at this exhibitor exhibit hall at this conference from smaller vendors, some big like Milwaukee and stuff like that. But there everything you need from start to finish from electrical pedestals, from smart meters, from like washers that like, like you install into the patio pavement underneath an RV that can wash the underneath of an RV.

Like everything you can imagine, Rafael, that you would ever need to run an RV park is on display and built full out at this expo. So that’s why I say the 10 year thing, I think we’ll get there. But the, I think the difference between the US and Europe that I see, and I not, I have a small piece of Europe, right?

So I’d love to hear Simon’s take on this, is that they are much more focused on the entire guest experience from how they experience the inside of the accommodations. Not just the accommodations, but is there a table in chairs to eat with your family? Is there nightstands to put your Kindle? Is there places to store your clothes and your luggage, and all those little details.

And is there a way to experience the outdoors from that cabin and take that experience in versus out? And that’s the other thing is almost every cabin we saw here was like, there was a company called LumiPod that had 150 degree glass doors that opened from the bedroom that you could step out into the glamping, into the outdoors, right?

Every single cabin had a way to connect. Inside to the outside, and I’ve seen them in some cabins at the Glamping Show, but not many. And most of the ones at the Glamping show are probably European manufacturers like tiki bars, where the bar is in normal cabin, you’re opening the door, you’re going out to the porch, and you’re sitting on it.

There’s cabins with tiki bars where they have bar stools on the outside and they go inside to outside, so you can serve from the cooking area into the outside. Just it feels like they are not better, but further along than the United States is, if that makes sense. 

Rafael Correa: No, I can appreciate that. And I think that’s also, you gotta think too, I don’t, I’m not by any means an expert.

You’re making me want to go learn a little bit more, obviously. But, if what Simon’s telling me, I think you said 40 to 50% tent camping. That’s a tent camping for us. In the transient RV resort world, like that’s infill space of areas you can’t develop.

And the rates we’re getting on tent sites are much different. But if you’re gonna dress up a tent site with outdoor kitchens and all these, unique amenities then and get a better rate. And I could totally appreciate where that’s coming from. I just, I’m. Our, the core of our outdoor hospitality business that I participate in is serving that the RV community.

And which no one does bigger, better than the USA when it comes to RVs. That’s true. But at least bigger. Maybe not always better, but certainly bigger. And and that’s, I don’t know it’d be interesting, I’d be interested to understand the economics of a, what the average campground looks like in Europe. Revenues, Cost operate. 

Brian Searl: Simon can probably speak to that more than I can, but there was a presentation in Croatia with RV sites, with private pools on them at one resort. And the ADR I think was like $250 a night average and $430 a night in like July and August. 

Rafael Correa: That’s awesome. 

Brian Searl: And again, this is not everywhere.

And Croatia has some of the most expensive camping sites. Simon can correct me in a second. In Europe, I think. So this is not every resort. This is not indicative of a traditional camping experience, but they’re just thinking outside the box more than we have, because I think they’ve been at the luxury camping thing more longer than we have.

And yes, you’re right. Nobody does RV probably like Class A better than the United States does, but I’m not sure that’s the place you wanna hang your hat for the next 20 years when the economy is iffy and RVs are expensive. I don’t know that’s necessarily the place. RVs will always be a thing.

But is that the number one thing? I think, and Scott, you and I have talked about this on the Outwired, right? I think for the last 40, 50 years, the baby boomers have demanded an experience that has not really changed. And I think that’s allowed some park owners and there are companies like Blue Water and CRR Hospitality and that have, they’re doing it differently, but most people have sat still because they haven’t needed to change.

I think that need is about to hit them in the face pretty quickly.

Rafael Correa: I, you, look. 

Brian Searl: Is that too con is that too controversial or 

Rafael Correa: No, you make me wanna think about Blue Water, my European expansion. So. 

Scott Bahr: It would be an interesting think analysis to, to dig into some of this. Obviously that’s where I’m gonna go. I’m gonna sign Simon on board to be my European correspondent.

And we’re going to dive into this because I feel like as you’re talking here I just think about what drives this? What would drive these types of differences? And to me it feels like in the US we’re very fragmented. We’re a very, we’re very spread out. We’re very fragmented and we, so we have all these regional differences within this country, whereas in some of the European countries, it’s much more dense.

Simon mentioned there’s 12,000 campgrounds in France. I think square mileage. France is the size of what state is it? California maybe. I forget. I forget how it goes. 

Brian Searl: It’s close. Yeah. 

Scott Bahr: But yeah. And so you have 12,000 campgrounds, whether of different sizes in that same space. So by, by comparison, again it’s much more dense.

I think it, it creates a different dynamic when people are that much a little bit closer and they’ve probably been doing it a lot longer. We know that when Europeans come here and they used to come here to the us that they go to the places, the. 

Brian Searl: Some of them still are. Scott, don’t be too harsh.

Scott Bahr: But like I, I used to live in Arizona and we had huge influxes of Europeans who would like rent RVs, vans and such, and just travel the Southwest. Those, they and speaking with ’em, a lot of them liked that, that the openness of it, the big open areas and, the public lands where you could just, stay anywhere.

I think some of those things drive a little bit of that, and then it’s gonna drive how people design the experience based on that. Based on those dynamics and right now it’s these smaller microcosms that create it so it, it isn’t quite the same. And again, I’m kinda rambling about it a little bit, but I think it’d be really interesting to see what creates that environment and why, and how do we benefit from that really.

Because it sounds like we could use a little injection of that here in terms of how we approach, the design and the experience overall. 

Simon Neal: Yeah, I think I just wanna jump in a bit. So I need to clear up the statement I made about a percentage of tent sites. ’cause in Europe, a tent site and a camper site, or RV site is the same thing. 

They’re built to take a tent and the European RV, which is basically a van to you guys. So there are no massive RVs. There’s very few, and they have to go on a special tent site or pitch. But generally it’s multipurpose in the campground, but it’s around 40, 50% come in tents. Maybe 40% come in vans, medium RVs, small RVs, and the rest are gonna be in the mobile home, the glamping, which is becoming a bit bigger percentage.

So it’s really, it’s a really flexible space. You could take, 90% tents, so you could take 90% vans. It doesn’t matter. They use everything. So I think in terms of, the differences in experience, certainly in Europe, it’s been going on like this for a long time. So it’s super traditional.

Like I said, Northern Europeans come to Southern Europe for their summer holidays. They come like for two weeks, once a year, they spend the money. It has to be great. And I think there’s always been competition between where you go and I think that competition has driven this evolution and experience and the quality that now has been pushed above everything else.

Every time we go to a conference, price is fine, as long as the quality’s there, it’s a quality price ratio. And I think it, it’s so close to a hotel. Like you can be in a town in southern France and have the choice to be in a campground or go across the road literally and be in a hotel or something like that.

So there’s really close competition. There’s really a lot of exchange. This has been going on a long time. It’s highly evolved. And I think there’s just a real focus on that, customer experience. They know they’re coming for holiday, they’re coming for two weeks, everything has to count.

And if it’s great, they’re gonna pay big money for it. And that’s really, now they were saying, France, Spain, it’s like July, August, that’s our season. That’s it. Everything has to count. Croatia, some other countries it’s four or five months. It’s a really good shoulder season. But I think that’s a big driving factor around this, experience driven, evolution of everything that’s happening.

And yeah, the glamping stuff is just, yeah, go ahead. 

Brian Searl: No, go ahead. 

Simon Neal: I was just gonna finish on the glamping side that there really has been a lot of innovation on the structures and the types. And it’s just, like I said, it’s been growing crazy over here for five, 10 years and that’s why you’ve seen this really quick evolution of different glamping solutions. And even, people with an extra field, farmers are doing it, they’re buying in. So it’s not just RV parks and campgrounds. It’s popping up all over the place. You get all sorts of suppliers popping up as well. 

Brian Searl: Yeah, I think we we interviewed like the president of the, and I’m gonna get the names wrong ’cause I’m not familiar with them, but the president of the National French Federation, like the, like OHI, right? Like Paul Bambi in OHI, we interviewed him today. We interviewed the guy from Occitanie, the regional association, which is where the camping conference is being spread or held for SETT. And I think what we’ve heard and understood from those people is that, at least the takeaway I had is that camping is much more on a level playing field in Europe with hotels than it is in the United States.

Would you agree with that, Simon? 

Simon Neal: Yeah. 

Brian Searl: Yeah. Like I, I don’t know if it’s one to one, but I think it’s at least 75 to a 100. It’s really close. So I think that’s a big difference with the ability of the camping market to compete in OTAs and the mindset of the consumer and advertising and like people just some, I forget the president of the National French Federation was telling me like, people come from north, from the north, from Norway, Netherlands, UK.

They go south to France to Croatia for their vacations. But when they’re going camping. Like they’re just, that’s what they do. There’s not even a competition. They’re going camping. Is that true, Simon? Or, 

Simon Neal: yeah, I think it’s okay. It’s a demographic, right? Some people do the resort all inclusive holiday or they go Turkey, Greece, or stuff like that. But there is just a massive percentage of the population who every year go camping. 

They either have a van or they just have a tent, or they turn up a glamping place. I’m one of those, and there’s plenty of them in Europe. It’s a really big, solid demographic that’s been around a long time. 

Brian Searl: And I think. That’s the difference.

Rafael Correa: I wonder if it’s also a relationship of landmass, right? Pressure real estate in general is precious in Europe. US we’ve got a lot of landmass to spear. And so I would imagine too that, when you establish a campground, they’re, how big is the average campground?

How many sites are we talking about? 

Simon Neal: I would say 200 to 300 is like your average medium. To large times. 

Rafael Correa: Average? Two to three, but sites that are much smaller than they are in the US, I’m guessing. 

Simon Neal: Yeah, for sure. 

Scott Bahr: Okay. Simon, a quick question for you. If you ask people in, in general, I know this is a generalization, but about camping, if you said, do you go camping, would they, how would they define that?

’cause one of the things that we had to do several years ago was actually come up with a definition of what camping is, because we found, even here in the US people, if you said camping, people had very different views of what that meant. For example, there were people who traveled in RVs who didn’t consider RVing camping.

And I, I just remember the first media event we ever had. Our moderator was from Europe and he was like, most of the stuff you guys do isn’t camping. This isn’t camping in Europe. I’ve always remembered that because at afterwards, after the event, we just got into these really intense discussions about what it was and how we defined it.

And anyway, I’m just asking that in general because it, it kind matters when you approach people and that, when you kinda look at the industry and the scope of it. 

Simon Neal: Yes. I think for me as a younger guy, camping was pretty much wild camping. You’re hiking up a hill, you’re walking in a mountain and you’re staying in a tent that’s on your back.

Brian Searl: I’m sorry I want you to finish Simon, but I wanted just note that you said you were a younger guy and I’m a year younger than you. So like I’m really super happy that you said that. 

Simon Neal: So before I had a family and then there’s the, like the holiday camping, right? So this is campaign which we’re talking about, which is anything from tent to small van.

Even now a bit the mobile home glamping, but definitely it’s all about tents, big tents in fields, in campgrounds, in a van, in a campground or a field that’s camping. Glamping kind of covers all the push side of that, which is the tents, the mobile homes, the cabin, stuff like that. But that’s definitely a really well-defined, strong word.

I go camping for my holidays. Everyone visualizes what that means. 

Scott Bahr: Okay, good. That’s how, where we had to get to here to actually just use that definition. I’m doing research. It’s important that we can ground people in a definition. We still don’t know what Glamping is though, so we’ll deal with that later.

Brian Searl: I like camp. I like, I don’t even remember. Outdoor experience is what I posted on LinkedIn. I think there should be an association or some kind of certification of outdoor experiences. Like I think Glamping is a thing. Luxury, landscaping, luxury landscape resorts, like cabin rentals, like we used to call glamping RV.

Some people have that perception. I think glamping has a ceiling in the mind of the consumer. I really do. Like I, and I’m not saying I’m right, I think Glamping has a ceiling like for people who have been camping all their lives, glamping doesn’t have a ceiling for people who are coming into the industry who have not camped before.

I think Glamping has a ceiling and that ceiling is between what glamping is for our industry right now and what Marriott is doing to some of their outdoor resorts to connect with nature. And so I’m not sure that glamping is the right word, long term. Maybe it is. Maybe I’m wrong. But I think out, it’s like a certified outdoor experience or something that is almost like a good exam rating is, would be really beneficial to our industry.

Simon Neal: I think. 

Brian Searl: That focuses on the guest experience, right? 

Simon Neal: Yeah. But glamping is a play on the camping word, right? So for me, glamping is super clear. It’s in some sort of campsite, campground, field. 

Brian Searl: Which is, that’s a ceiling. I agree with you. 

Simon Neal: Yeah. So whatever it is, which you sleep in, stay in, is a bit undefined, but it’s in that sort of setting.

If you go outside of that setting for me, then yeah. I’m not sure if it’s glamping or not anymore. 

Brian Searl: What do you think, Rafael? 

Rafael Correa: I think the first definition in Glamping is you gotta provide the bed. I don’t consider if I gotta bring my own tent to be glamping. But that’s just me, and again, I think this definition is gonna take time to flush out what it is. But I also think that the, within the definition of glamping, as with anything, there will be a spectrum. And as my wife accuses me of sometimes being, as long as I’m on that spectrum, I’m good to go. 

Scott Bahr: I agree with that, Rafael.

And that’s actually something that I’ve put some time into that can talk about at some point. But I agree with you. I think it is a spectrum. I think it starts, on one end you have the wilderness back country, and at the other end, the top of it, you have that very luxurious experience that has still kinda yet to be defined, I think fully, but it’s still the outdoor experience, as Brian mentioned, but it’s includes a lot of stuff that we still need to include there. But yeah I think you’re definitely on the right track with that. 

Brian Searl: I, 

Scott Bahr: Is there a dog?

Brian Searl: Yeah there’s a dog here. yeah I’m literally like, can I turn the camera on? That’s literally there’s dogs running around down there somewhere in the middle of the, I’m an old town Marseille. But anyway, so like I, I think that’s what’s really where we haven’t gone yet in the US. Some businesses have, there are some really, and I’m not just saying any I’m not saying any of the glamping accommodation providers are doing it wrong.

I’m just saying there are some glamping providers in the US. There are way more in Europe who are completely focused on the guest experience, both low end, middle end and high end. Doesn’t require you to be luxury to be focused on the guest experience, but to be like the first Glamping tent that I, or Glamping Yeah.

Is a tent or a yurt circular thing that I walked in at the show and sat at a kitchen table. I have never stepped foot into a Glamping tent at the glamping or anywhere else that I can remember that’s staged and I understand they’re staged with a kitchen table. It took a few years for us to see a Glamping accommodation or a cabin rental that had a place for people to store luggage and hang their clothes.

And so I just think there’s a mindset of profit first and then not with everybody but profit first and then guest experience. And if you flip those, if you do guest experience first, you can almost always double their triple your profits. But few people are thinking that way, and I think they are that way in Europe, but they’re not thinking that way yet in the US.

Rafael Correa: Yeah. And I think there’s always been a European, European design has always been at ranked very highly in the hierarchy of what anything they do, right? Whether it’s fashion cars. So it’s no surprise that in camping, they put a very high value on design function and in turn, the guest experience, I think that what’s happening in the US where camping used to be, quite frankly, I think the origins of camping are affordability, right?

Affordability and accessibility. And I think only recently are we starting to serve a higher end of the spectrum. And and I’m writing this in an article for Woodall right now, but, pricing, right? For guests. We used to be on rate cards, right? In the RV industry, rate cards were commonplace.

Now rate cards are gone. The consumer is used to the rate card being gone. They understand dynamic pricing is gonna be there, like their airplane tickets, like their hotel rooms, like everything else. But what has not changed for the campgrounds consumer is the perception of value, right? Value is I think that is the key word going forward in our industry because we’ve pushed price and now the consumers is asking about value, right?

And so that inherently is gonna force the entire industry to level up, because if you’re not delivering value, the customer will vote with their dollars and they’re gonna take it somewhere else. So I think there’s a lot of valuable things to be learning doing what you’re doing and going to see what’s happening in Europe, because I do think that I would agree with you, I think in everything that most European countries do they put that thought process in very early in the, in in their execution.

Brian Searl: There are 10,000 different ways to provide value. It doesn’t have to be through a multimillion dollar waterpark. It can be like I posted about this Airbnb I’m staying at right now. That is not at all like a camping, I’m not saying is, but the value there is like they bring French brunch every morning that they sit outside your door that this amazing spread.

And that’s just that, it’s the experience, whatever that experience is. Yeah, that’s the value. And it has to be tailored to your niche and who you’re targeting and the people that are in your campsite or your accommodation. But if you can focus on that, then your ADR can go way too big. 

Rafael Correa: And one of the thing I think there’s people that are proving that every day.

Sorry to interrupt you, Scott. I apologize. No problem. Like arguing. I like arguing with Brian. 

Brian Searl: Everyone likes talking with me. I’m not right most of the time. 

Rafael Correa: The Bolt Farm Tree house guys, right? What they’re doing and some of these other folks that have launched these, ultra luxury glamping experiences.

It’s all experience based and that’s why people are going back and why they’re paying the dollars they’re paying. ’cause they’re delivering a level of experience that is, world class. 

Brian Searl: But what’s interesting too, and Simon, you can, you should weigh in on this, right? What’s interesting too is with there’s these really luxury resorts that are in Croatia.

I think there was one, and I can’t remember the number, it was a couple hundred cabin mobile homes that they put in, right? Simon? That every one of them has private pools. But what I heard through discourse and discussion is that yes you have private pools, but why would somebody who experiences that come back to that same experience?

They’ve already experienced the mobile home or the cabin rental in American terms with the private pool. Simon, do you wanna briefly touch on that and your thoughts? 

Simon Neal: Yeah, I actually have a picture. Can I share my screen? 

Rafael Correa: Simon’s just over here smiling in the corner. He is yeah, Europe’s way better.

Brian Searl: Simon knows way more than I do. I’m just a piggyback guy on the back of Simon. 

Simon Neal: Can you can you guys see that? 

Brian Searl: I think we can. Did you just click? 

Simon Neal: There you go. 

Brian Searl: There we go. 

Simon Neal: So I was looking enough to get a, it’s one of our customers actually, who was right next door to the Congress we were at last week.

And they have these new mobile homes with private pools and this sauna in there. And that’s the pool again. Pool. 

Brian Searl: And this is a private pool on one mobile home, right? 

Simon Neal: Yeah. Lemme see if I’ve got an inside shot. No. Okay. Hold on. No. So basically. These were mobile homes with a private pool with a sauna, can sleep six adults, so three bedrooms, two bathrooms and in off season they were charging them at 275 euros per night.

And they had occupancy now, right? So last week it was holiday in Slovenia. So lots of sen people coming. The sun was out and they have occupancy. They had 400 people, I think, in the campgrounds at the end of October. And then of course, during peak season, these are gonna be, premium things.

You can fit one family, two families almost in there. But the same time, just behind that mobile home, you have the standard normal pitches for a tent or camper. So all mixed together. Really investing. And they actually built a brand new covered water park that’s open all year round as well. So you got the seasonal guests coming in and the local population can come in with their kids at the weekend off season. So that’s really good.

Scott Bahr: What earlier. 

Rafael Correa: Scott, we’ve interrupted you a hundred times. Scott, I’m gonna just clear the out for you. Go ahead. 

Brian Searl: Scott’s the host. Take you, do your thing, Scott. Talk over us. I’m

Scott Bahr: just supposed to throw. I’m just supposed to throw grenades out there and let you guys handle ’em. Now the value proposition you mentioned Rafael earlier.

One of the things that we’ve seen over the past year is, and overall, and it’s not huge, but it’s noticeable decline in the value that guests assigned to their glamping experience. I think there’s a lot of reasons behind that and we’re in the process of really exploring that a little bit. But it went from a year ago being viewed the glamping category as one of the better values in travel.

’cause it’s compared across the spectrum speaking spectrums of different travel experiences from, resorts and cruises and everything. Just within leisure travel, different types of experiences. Glamping was one of the top rated experiences and it has declined to being like in the bottom third over, over the course of a year.

I think you probably have a handle on what is creating some of that, but I think it’s telling, and it’s one of those things that to me it’s that as an industry we need to get a handle on too. Yeah. 

Rafael Correa: I think and Brian alluded to this too because that, just because you have the nicest tent or the nicest RV, the nicest bed, that, those things don’t define the experience.

I’m sitting here in a, the Loews Sapphire Falls Hotel today, and I can tell you, this is a thousand room hotel with a gigantic, resort pool, and it’s right outside of Universal Studios and what has impressed me the most and had the most impact on my experience here is how friendly the staff has been.

Just the fact that anybody I’ve run into at any point in time has said, hi, how are you doing? How’s your stay? And have made me feel very comfortable that if I had an issue that I could bring it up. And it’s that hospitality piece, right? 

Scott Bahr: Absolutely. 

Rafael Correa: Of my experience here that if I’m coming back to this area with my family to do the rides, which is more of an inevitability, I guess at some point. I would come back here, right? It has like the basics of what I need, a clean room, access to the parks, the things that I would want. But more importantly, I have been, I have felt welcome, right? And that costs nothing other than properly training your staff and having them appreciate that experience.

And so I think that’s, when I’m talking to my team, that is probably gonna be our biggest priority, is how do we level that up? How do we do that and do that at a very high level, because that will help us stand apart all day long. 

Brian Searl: Absolutely. And I think that’s a, that’s part of the problem though, is I think there’s a, there are really good operators in the United States and Canada and all over the world that do this stuff, right?

I think there’s a significant double digit percentage of operators. And I’m gonna be vague and say that a double digit percentage of operators in the United States who have been operating RV parks and campgrounds for baby boomers for 40 years, or 30 years, or 20 years, or whatever else, that have not had to incorporate the hospitality experience into their RV parks or campgrounds because those people just come. That’s changing now, and I think they have to focus on hospitality and that’s making them uncomfortable. Some of it. 

Rafael Correa: I think that’s part of it. But I’ll also say this and I’ve been part of this evolution, right? Of call it corporate hospitality, right? Where you have multi-part owners and things like that. When you really dig into especially in the RV industry at these family owned and operated RV resorts where the, the family members were delivering that level of hospitality because you are, for lack of a better term, you’re in their house, right? Yep. 

And what there’s a challenge for us as a multi-property operator is how do I get as close to that as possible, right? Without it being the family that built and developed this campground has been there for multiple generations delivering this level of service.

And so I think that’s part of the evolution of our industry too, that’s happening, is that, it’s hard to, it’s hard to deliver hospitality, scalably. It’s just it’s hard to scale a great restaurant, right? That’s chef driven. And the chef is the one who’s delivering every, great meal that’s coming out or overseeing it.

And so scaling hospitality is, I think the the secret. The people that do that well will be successful. But it’s not gonna be everybody, 

Brian Searl: but not everybody needs to meet the owners, right? Everybody’s definition of hospitality is different, just like everybody’s definition of camping and glamping is different.

And so if you give people what their, what their definition of hospitality is by studying your market at your campground and what they want, and who their buyer personas are and what they’re expecting when they come there, right? That it’s all about the experience. What experience are you delivering hospitality to one person could mean meat and shaking the hands with the owner. Hospitality to another person could mean a thoughtful duvet that keeps them warm on the bed, combined with a table where they can rent their, like it’s different for it’s 10,000 different versions of hospitality. And so just studying your market and that person. Go ahead.

Scott Bahr: When you look at the outdoor hospitality market overall, about over, over 80% of the guests put staff interactions in their definition of hospitality. 

Brian Searl: Yeah, for sure. 

Scott Bahr: So for, it has to be an element. It has to be that element that’s theirs at some level. But yeah, so you’re right. Everybody’s gonna have a different set of expectations when they show hospitality is if you want your minimum point of entry is to make sure that people have favorable staff interactions.

That’s your minimum point of entry right there. 

Brian Searl: Yeah. I’m not disagreeing with you. Sorry. I did. If I sounded like I was minimizing it, I didn’t mean to, I’m just saying there are other ways to achieve hospitality in addition to that without making that the main focus, but a big focus, if that makes sense.

Scott Bahr: You’re in France. 

Rafael Correa: I think. 

Scott Bahr: We’ll forgive you. 

Brian Searl: I need forgiveness at least once every five minutes. 

Rafael Correa: I’m not sure if Brian’s coming back. I gotta be honest with you. 

Brian Searl: That’s fine. I show’s better without me.

Rafael Correa: This is good stuff. All right. Yeah. I think what we have to do is just coordinate an MC, Fireside Chats European vacation. Simon’s driving. Simon’s driving. 

Scott Bahr: All right. I’m on board. 

Simon Neal: Finding mission. 

Rafael Correa: That’s right. 

Brian Searl: It went like there’s things to learn from everybody across the world.

To be clear, like Europe can learn some from some things that the USA is doing. USA can learn from some of the things Europe is doing. All the people are smart. All the people have good ideas. It’s taking and picking and choosing what each person is doing individually. That works great for your campground and your niche and what you’re trying to build, but putting the thought into it’s what matters. That’s what I think owning. We need to do more of. Yeah. 

Rafael Correa: Yeah. Owning. Owning. And I’ll tell you that, that’s so my experience, I feel like everybody I’ve come across at this property has owned my experience here at this hotel. And that comes through in a hundred different ways. 

Scott Bahr: Absolutely. 

Rafael Correa: I guess before we leave, I’m gonna, I’m taking over, Scott. Sorry. 

Scott Bahr: Please do. 

Rafael Correa: Because we only have a few more minutes left. But, we’re all, we are all about to congregate together next week. I think we’ll all be at the OHI conference. And then some of us will be at the KOA conference right after that. We’re doing our little marathon here.

But I’m curious what each of you and is there a major goal or thing that you’re looking for or group that you’re trying to meet? What is what’s your major objective going into this conference season?

Brian Searl: Simon, Scott? 

Simon Neal: Okay. I’ll start. Yeah, I went to the KOA convention for the first time last year. So that was my first US experience of a convention congress. Yeah, that’s a repeat goals. We have a partnership with KOA, so we’re working towards supporting them there. So my main focus now is the OHI, something new for me.

And I think the main thing is just connecting face to face with people I’ve been chatting to for years. Trying to reach out to and just really getting to know a bit more about how the campgrounds are thinking as well. ’cause my exposure’s a bit limited over here and I think it’s our fastest growing market now.

And definitely wanna understand, the pains how can we help if we can help and, just get to know people really. It’s the main thing. 

Scott Bahr: Nice. Yeah, for me it’s always just a matter of just being people in person that I seems like I talk to a lot, but don’t really get to me, it gets me out, as I mentioned earlier I’m immersed in data a lot. And so I need some socialization. I need that a little bit, actual human contact. And it’s always, different conversations are always different. One, one, in person than they are even in the format like this. People relax a little bit more, becomes a little bit more unvarnished and that that’s what I’m looking forward to.

Brian Searl: I’m just really hoping somebody from. 

Rafael Correa: How about Brian? 

Brian Searl: I’m just really hoping somebody from Blue Water stops behind my boots and talks to me. Makes me feel important. 

Rafael Correa: I’ll see what I can do to help that happen. 

Brian Searl: I appreciate it. 

Rafael Correa: Yeah. I’m I I love the perspective, right? I think that, just like I think, Scott, you said it well, like I’m in my Blue Water bubble for so much of the year and, I’m trying to make sense heads and tails adjust the tactics and strategy going into next year.

And I feel like I get so much insight interacting with my peers and vendors that add perspective that really influence the strategy that I take into the next year. So that’s that’s what I’m most excited about. 

Brian Searl: I’m most excited about this dessert that I finally got here. This looks really good. That looks delicious, right? 

Rafael Correa: This guy. This guy. Seriously, 

Brian Searl: I don’t know what to tell you. Like Europe, old town Europe is amazing. Like I’m an AI tech guy, but I like the balance of Old Town Europe and this east cobblestone street. Like it just I don’t know if this is actually cobblestone, but like how can you beat this? I don’t know how you beat that. 

Rafael Correa: It looks like a postcard buddy. 

Brian Searl: It is, man. Like it’s Montpelier but it’s all over Europe. Simon know, so I like it. 

Rafael Correa: Enjoy your trip. Safe travels home and certainly look forward to seeing you. 

Brian Searl: Leaving tomorrow at 6am so.

All right. I appreciate you guys. Is there anything else you wanna wrap up with Scott? Do final thoughts from Simon? 

Scott Bahr: No. Good conversation. I liked I just, I like having these conversations about what’s happening elsewhere. It makes me curious and you mentioned what can we learn and it’s that outreach, we all end up in our little bubbles sometimes.

So from my perspective I think there’s some opportunity to do some of that. We’re actually working on, doing some research in the Mexican market to primarily in planting, working with the groups down there as well. And I think, again, I think that’s all important.

It helps round out the, what we know, our knowledge base. What can we learn from, all these different places? And Simon can host us when we’re there on site. Meaning the real world ethnography is that we need to complete for our work. 

Brian Searl: I think Simon should host like an international get together and teach everybody about these European market.

Scott Bahr: That’s it yeah, we’re sitting here waiting. 

Simon Neal: Yeah, let’s meet up and chat about it next week. 

Brian Searl: In the meantime, there’s a cute little dog that’s just happened to wander up to our table. I don’t, I just honestly don’t know where this happened. Where does this happen in America? I love America, but like, where does this happen in America?

I don’t understand. I just, I, anyway, whatever. Okay. Where can they find out more about Blue Water? 

Rafael Correa: BWDC. That’s Bravo-Whiskey-Delta-Charlie.com. 

Brian Searl: Awesome. Thank you Rafael, for being here. Simon, where can they find out more about Camp Map? 

Simon Neal: Yeah, just campmap.com and see you on the OHI next week or KOA two weeks after if you’re there.

Brian Searl: Definitely. It’s si sorry. That’s Simon again. Scott. Where can they find out more about Cairn Consulting? 

Scott Bahr: cairnconsultinggroup.com. We have a resource library. Please feel free to access it. Lots of information there. Reach out at any time. 

Brian Searl: Awesome. Do you want to wrap up the show, Scott, or should I wrap up the show or we should do this?

Scott Bahr: I think we’re, yeah, I think we’re done. Do you wanna wrap it up? 

Brian Searl: All right. I’m gonna cross my fingers and hope Sharah has got her finger on the end button. ’cause I definitely don’t. But really appreciate you guys. See you in another episode of MC Fireside Chats. Scott Bahr did a great job guest hosting for us.

Rafael, I really appreciate you being here again. Simon, appreciate you being here. Looking forward to seeing all of you guys at OHI next week, and then KOA the week after. Until then, see you guys next week. Take care. 

Rafael Correa: See ya 

Simon Neal: Thank you. Bye-bye. 

Scott Bahr: Bye.