MC Fireside Chats – March 8, 2023

Brian: Welcome everybody to another episode of MC Fireside Chats. My name is Brian Searl with Insider Perks here as always, with Cara Csizmadia from the Canadian Camping & RV Council. [00:01:00] We are super excited to bring you another episode focused on glamping today, and we’ve got a couple recurring guests with us today, some of which are missing, some of which might pop in a minute.

Hopefully we’ll have Ruben Martinez here from the American Glamping Association. But we do have Zach here who is Architect Design Genius, is gonna hopefully help us have a, another good show here. We’ve also got some special guests. Alessandro is joining us. Oh, there’s Ruben. He’s popping in right now, and I gotta let these guys in.

We’ve got Alessandro, who is I told you I wasn’t gonna pronounce the company name, right? Yeah. Introduce Vacan Alessandro. Cause 

Alessandro: I’m from Vacanze col Coure. We are a Italian-Dutch family owned glamping group. We we basically own and operate nine glamping resorts or actually, Eight are active and one is still a development.

And we are planning to, to grow further in the next years. 

Brian: Awesome. I can’t wait to hear all about that. We’re gonna dive into it and see what you guys have done over there. It’s really fascinating to me to hear cuz I think you guys in some ways are ahead of us in the United States and Canada with glamping, but we’ll dive into that.

[00:02:00] Ruben, welcome. Your camera looks clean now. 

Ruben: It was somehow dirty. I don’t know. Yeah, so it’s clean. I got a little bit of a halo going on, so I was just trying to sort it out. But happy Wednesday. 

Brian: We could, we could do the whole play like, are you an angel? 

Ruben: I don’t know. Probably not.

Brian: Yeah, it’s a horizontal hit anyway. Okay. And then we’ve got Jim from NovaDome as well joining us to talk about design and construction of dome shelter type clamping accommodations. And so we’ll hear from Jim as well. Where do you think we should start, Cara? 

Cara: Oh gosh, that’s it’s been a couple weeks since I’ve been on the show, so I’m out of my element. It’s been chaos. 

Brian: You didn’t miss much. It was just me talk- you missed the guests. But other than that, 

Cara: yeah. I’m used to hearing you talk . Yeah. 

Brian: . That’s a perk. I feel 

Zachary: like. Okay. But anyway, go ahead, . 

Cara: Yeah, I’m actually keen to hear from Novo here. You’re based in Alberta where Brian and I are located. Am I wrong? 

Jim: Yes, that’s right. Awesome. Yep. We’re manufacturing in located basically just outside [00:03:00] of Edmonton. 

Brian: Ah, so what do you do, Jim? Yeah. Introduced us to NovaDome 

Jim: yeah, thank you. So we we’ve more or less taken a product that’s been more or less available to military and government organizations.

Create a bit of a marketing strategy and a face around it and brought that out to let’s say the public or more, make the product more accessible. It is actually built. The product is essentially a fiberglass shelter comes in, chips or pieces, if you might, saying bolts together very easily put up.

But what you get is an incredibly durable, long-lasting super low maintenance product that we’ve seen literally in all four seasons right from a, some of the coal arctic conditions. I literally just posted on LinkedIn today, back in 2016, the US Navy purchased one for a submarine, temporary submarine base up in the Arctic.

And, from the coast of Alaska and different places we’ve sent them up into the far north of Labrador. And they just they have a certain confidence that they can give somebody around the durability, long lasting [00:04:00] nature of them. Yeah. We do interiors. We, from a factory perspective, our factory is set up to be doing some basic interiors.

We pre modulize everything called the plumbing, electrical, certify it, engineer it, create it all down and ship it to clients. And whether that’s staged over a couple of dome process or whether that all just comes at once, that’s the decision of the client. But , it’s been pretty hectic last four, five years.

And it’s been a joy to bring the product to people that wouldn’t have otherwise been able to get their hands on it. 

Brian: So what do you think sets you guys apart from we see obviously with the pandemic Camping in general, getting outside took off, but Yeah, with Camping specifically, it’s been in the UK for a long time.

It’s been over in Europe in general, probably a little bit longer than we’ve had. . But what do you think with all these manufacturers, all these suppliers, all these people who make yards and cabins and TVs and tents, what sets Nova Dome? What’s your one like, if you had to pick one feature that really sets you apart?

Jim: Yeah, it’s a good question. I have, I ask people all the time, know, you’re getting into a business, taking a risk and [00:05:00] where do you expect to be in five to eight years? Do you wanna be, do you wanna have the same condition? Do you wanna be doing what you’re doing, pulling the same ROI out of it through one and two and three years as you do over 5, 8, 5, 6, 7, 8?

We actually have a product that has stud. I could bring showcase projects where these things have been up for the last four 30, 35 years from an instructural nature of the durability. But it is a dome. You don’t get the good aesthetics as some of the other products that you.

You do get out there, but one thing you can be assure of is it’s gonna last, it will stick around for a lot longer than you and I. 

Brian: But don’t say indestructible. Cause I think Elon said that about the cyber truck and then he threw a rock at the window and somebody’s gonna test it if you say that.

Jim: Yeah. We’ll be, we’d be we’d be up for that. Nothing. People don’t people don’t get, 

Brian: you’re inviting people. Oh, this is like a hackathon thing, man. 

You can’t do that. Like people are gonna actually test this stuff. 

Jim: No, the wood indestructible probably takes a little bit far. [00:06:00] 

Brian: What do we, what do you, what do we know about NovaDome Ruben and how some of these accommodations compare that people are like these new companies coming into the industry.

There’s new people popping up. Obviously Novo’s just one of them, but how do you think the accommodations have evolved recently and changed over the last few years and how do you think they’ll continue to. 

Ruben: No I think what’s really exciting about what we’re seeing is, 10 years ago as we say we can week out, there’s a level of it just being about the land and the canvas, right?

That’s all that really existed. Nobody was really innovating that much. There wasn’t all the different products and software and technology and things like that. And so it’s exciting to see every year more and more innovation in the space. More and more new products, more and more new manufacturers, cuz that’s what really pushes and elevates any industry, but specifically, the glamping industry.

And , I think the name of the game here moving forward and what we’ve seen a lot of, it’d be great to get, everybody else’s take on this too, is this push towards, all season. And even five [00:07:00] years ago people were just really content with, I’ll be open six months outta the year.

That’s fine. That’s all I need. And now it’s how do I not only be open more, but how am I open year round and how do I really elevate the guest experience? So even if it’s, Jim, to your point, a unit in the Arctic, how do we still make that a valuable experience for the guest?

Cuz again, the notion has always been, it’s easy to get people to go do this one time, but how do you get them to come back again? And again. And so it’s really fun to see the different executions that are happening for mitigating seasonality. And I think at some point, That word is really just not gonna exist anymore in this space because people are gonna crack the code on how to be open, or the guest is really gonna choose to go several times of the year.

And therefore the operators will need to figure out a way to provide experiences year round. And that starts with the [00:08:00] manufacturer and the unit itself. Cuz you might have some great experiences on site, but if you don’t have, whether it’s, too hot or too cold, whether it’s, June or February, you need to have an experience within the unit that the guest is really gonna like.

So it’s great to see that’s still progressing and that’s still, happening across the board, 

Brian: which is fantastic. I think that’s a, an awesome future that I’m looking forward to. I can’t remember in the name of it or the actor. I was just trying to Google it and I couldn’t remember.

There’s a new, I think it’s a Netflix show where that the guy from is it the dad from American Pie? Whatever his name was. 

Cara: Oh, eugene. It’s on Apple tv. It’s on Apple tv. 

Brian: Yeah, Apple TV. Yeah. 

Yeah. So he his first episode I watched of his was, he was gl he was glamping in, I think it was Finland.

Was it? Did you watch it, Cara? 

Cara: Yeah. Finland. I haven’t seen the whole episode, but I did start it. Yeah, it’s fascinating stuff like that is really gonna shine a light on both well year. But yeah, like Ruben said, my point Yeah. Yeah. Accessing this type of experience throughout the year instead of [00:09:00] how we’ve traditionally seen operators.

Ruben: Yeah. And I think an important point in Zach and Alessandro, you can speak better. To this. But I think what people have realized now is that they’re trying to be retroactive with that thought process. Okay, now I’m up and running and now I’ve gotta design something that can extend the season. But I’m sure you guys can tell us more about, you really gotta be, that’s something that was needed to be pre-baked years ago, right?

That thought process of the guest experience. And you can’t just flip a switch and all of a sudden it’s there. Cause those are expensive last minute changes to try and make. It has to be thoughtful and methodical from, the design phase. 

Zachary: Yeah. One thing I would add to build on what Ruben said I think another shift that, that we’re seeing certainly in our business is a move into new markets and new areas of the country.

Two years ago when we started on this, obviously there were certain areas, Florida, Georgia, North Carolina, the Smokey Mountains, [00:10:00] Texas, Arizona, those traditionally have been really strong markets for us from a glan perspective. In the last six months, we’ve picked up projects in Washington State, Minnesota, New Hampshire, Maine, upstate New York, all these kind of northern tier states.

And I know Brian and Kara over here laughing, going, we’ve been doing this in Canada for years. But I think in the US market, for sure there’s been some resistance because, to Ruben’s point, I think there were operators that were looking going, could I do a glamping resort in Minnesota if I’m only gonna be able to run four months out of the year?

Can I make the finances work on such a short season? And so I think some of this push into hard sighted units. Cabins, some of these innovative pro products like NovaDome that are looking saying, yeah, in a 95 pound snow load, we can do that. And we’ve got these in the Arctic Circle, so yes we’ll make it work in [00:11:00] Minnesota.

I, I think that’s an exciting thing, but the thing that I’m looking at is not just taking existing resorts and, getting them to a year-round condition. It’s going into new markets and new areas that maybe previously people thought, oh, clamping doesn’t really work up there.

And figuring out, no, we, if we do the right kinds of units or we bring in some of these new innovative structures yes, we can do it year round. And also from a guest experience opening up some of the new activities and the new things that are possible. know, I was privileged a couple weeks ago, we went out to meet with a client on a beautiful site in Idaho.

And there was snow on the ground. And we had that conversation about, he, he wants to run you round. And we said what, what are you thinking about for wintertime activities? And he said, oh, let me show you. And he had a set of moon bikes or I don’t, have you guys heard of this company or seen these things before?

Absolutely incredible. So much fun. Took about 10, 15 minutes to fit, get the hang of it and do it. I got to ride one. And, thinking [00:12:00] about what do guests do when there’s two and a half feet of snow on the ground? And so we’re planning snowmobiles and moon bikes and CrossCountry skiing and all these wintertime activities.

And then how does that translate, outta season, what are we do in the summertime and we’re looking at quads and side-by-sides and renting e-bikes and hiking and swimming and, so I think that’s really excited and I always get. Really exciting and I always get charged up when I can see some of these new products that are opening up those possibilities either to year round operation or to, to new markets.

Cara: And I think there’s, so I just spent a few days in a tourism advocacy summit here in Alberta and we’ve always been this really resource based economy and kind of blue collar workers and stuff around here. And now we’re seeing this shift to diversifying the economic market a little bit. And so this whole concept not only does it obviously benefit visitors and operators and tho their bottom lines, but it also changes the landscape [00:13:00] around things like expanding your tourism market and bringing more jobs to areas of.

In my case, in areas of the province where maybe they were struggling for those things. Financing bank, traditional banks and stuff like that often saw businesses like this as a bit of a risk because of that seasonality. So eliminating that really has a huge impact. I think, the ripple effect of this as a whole is fascinating to watch 

Brian: Alessandro. How do you handle the different seasons in Europe? Obviously Italy and the Netherlands are different climates, but Yeah, I 

Alessandro: think it’s very interesting point because it’s to be honest this podcast is my first experience with the like glamping on the other side of the ocean.

And actually the team you are discuss. Is something going on here as well? I think traditionally our type of resorts were built and always have been operated, mainly focusing on families with children. So very depending on school holidays. And luckily within Europe every country has [00:14:00] a slightly different holiday calendar.

Trying to work on multiple I would say consumer markets gives the opportunity to extend your season to a period going from very roughly April till October. But obviously yeah, we are facing the same challenge, meaning how can we like extend more than this April till October.

And last winter we opened on two of our locations in Italy. We we tried to launch a winter glamping. Which was basically the opening of a little part of the resort because our our resorts have around between 100 and 250 accommodations. So we opened like 20, 25 of them.

Plus our restaurants we created some tailor-made packages for the guests. We implemented some outdoor wellness areas. And it was a great success. I think bottom line from an earning point of view, it was breakeven. But we had a very good response on social media. So it gave us the opportunity to stay in touch with our customer base in a period where normally our industry is a bit flat and at the end it, yeah it created really a lot [00:15:00] of enthusiastic returns of customers that probably will will stay in our database for summer holidays as well.

So we are happy and we are now thinking about how we should expand this this idea for next year. 

Brian: Yeah. And it’s just the beginning, right? , if you’re breaking even the first year, then there’s only up from there. 

Cara: And it tends to gain a momentum quickly, especially if you’re utilizing social and things like that for that exposure, especially when it’s a great experience. We’ll move quickly.

Alessandro: Yeah. Especially because we are attracting in this winter period a very different target group than in summer because families with small children are not my experience are not really glimping in winter. So you are more attracting younger generation people and couples without kids, and those one are very interesting to travel also in summer, outside the school holiday periods.

So yeah it really gives us the opportunity to to have a new a new offer for this target group. And I think, Brian, to answer your first question, because you said the differences in Europe from a climate point of view, actually we are operating in the Netherlands and in Italy.

Brian: That’s [00:16:00] what I meant, difference between Italy and the Netherlands from climate. Cause Italy is warmer year round, right? 

Alessandro: To be honest, in winter there’s no big difference. So what we notice is that the, in summer and in spring Italy has a better climate like generally speaking, but in, really in the heart of the summer, in the heart of the winter it’s quite comparable.

I saw not on our place, but with some competitors also people opening their glamping during winter in the Netherlands. And they had quite a big success actually. 

Zachary: So I’ve got a question for you, Alessandro. What are some of the amenities the guest activities? Things that you’ve introduced in your winter market or opportunities that you’ve saw we can do this in the winter as a way to improve that guest experience and draw people in that’s different from what you do the rest of the year.

Alessandro: Yeah, so basically I think when we uh, when we had this this idea we had to face the fact that we are not located in a popular winter holiday region. Because in Europe but I think in the US and in Canada it’s the same. You have a [00:17:00] destination where you can have winter sports like skiing, snowboarding and they are very popular.

So it’s basically they are attracting people because of this winter activities. In our case, we are in quite summer oriented holiday destination. . So what we did, we tried to we have a a quite good food and beverage on our resorts also during summer. So we tried to use to create some package deals where people could have nice breakfast, nice dinners and this outdoor wellness.

And with outdoor wellness, just think about a sauna and a hot tub. But all like outside and almost all with a wood wood fire, which, which like increases the atmosphere a bit. And then we we tried to organize some activities for guests that are like possible to do in winter, like cook workshops, like food tastings, like wine tastings and all this kind of stuff.

But it’s really our yeah, because of the setting of our resorts this was like the best idea and in one of the two we organized. and I have no idea if it exists on on your side of the world, but in Europe you have Christmas [00:18:00] markets where people can buy some Christmas decoration stuff.

Brian: Yeah, I just went to 12 of them. I was over in Germany.

We don’t have to continue your Yeah, we don’t have the nice huge Christmas market like you over there. 

Cara: I think we’ve lost him. 

Oh, did we lose him? Yeah. Okay.. I kinda interrupted him and then he was 

Ruben: we kind of piggyback off of that point, cuz in the room right now we do have, somebody from each side of the equation.

Yeah. The design, the architecture, the operator Jim on the manufacturing side, because one other thought that I keep getting a lot of more now than ever is people’s ability to start. As the market continues to mature, there’s more mature conversations that are happening. Yes, people are saying things such as, they weren’t using the term exit strategy as much five years ago and now they are.

And to my point earlier, it’s hard to, you can’t retroactively set up things when you’re about to try and exit your business. And exit could mean a cash exit. It could mean your exit [00:19:00] strategy is just to hold onto it for 20 plus years and then hand it off to your kids exit strategy could be consolidation.

There could mean a million different things. And so I just didn’t know if you guys across the board, from a manufacturing standpoint, from architecture, design operator standpoint, are seeing things on either side of the coin where, just great initiatives where people are really setting themselves up for success so that they.

Have that exit strategy and vice versa. Just common mistakes that people are making where they know that it’s, or they don’t realize it till it’s too late. That it’s just, that business is never gonna be, is never gonna grow, right? It’s gonna be what it is and that’s fine, but the ability for people to be aware of what that situation is.

So just seeing a lot of that and just didn’t know if anybody had any thoughts on what that means to their side of the business, in this space or any unique situations that they’ve seen, in that line, 

Brian: whoever wants to be 

first.

Zachary: I’d be curious to, to hear from Jim a little bit.

I, and I [00:20:00] think it plays into this question. One thing I think that we’ve seen a shift or change from is not as many people that are looking for a quick to market strategy. I think two years ago there were lots of people that said, Oh, let’s get some bell tents. Let’s get something cheap.

We’ve got this beautiful property we can get up and running. Our guests aren’t gonna care because it’s all about the site. And I think Ruben hit that earlier, and I think those days are ending. There’s lots of beautiful sites and I think the bar has been raised for what guest experience is.

And more and more, my clients are cost conscious about what what amenities they’re going to install and what type of units that they’re gonna start with. But I think people are approaching this with a longer term vision and wanting to make a better upfront investment in a more long-term product, in something that they might have 20 or 30 years from now.

So I’d be curious to hear from Jim and when you have a product as unique as Nova [00:21:00] Dome and that’s part of your advantage as a 20, 25 year. Lifespan on this. What are you hearing from clients and from customers are doing that evaluation? 

Jim: Yeah, it’s great questions and great thought process.

I would say that at least 75% of the clients that would reach out to us on a regular basis now are talking about, Hey, we’ve got a site, or we’ve got a couple sites sweet products, great products, they look great. But I need to be thinking not only for season, but further down the road if I am gonna go ahead and sell this thing in five to eight years, I wanna know that when I made my money back, I can sell it for the same value that I’m putting into it.

And the other thing I think I would say is just human nature is not very we’re from discipline with ourselves, we might be a bit lukewarm, but when we actually think of things, we get a bit radical. If you said to somebody, Hey, picture yourself in your favorite season. Yeah, they’re gonna, they throw at you, cozy up in a, with some hot chocolate or in a, on a chilly [00:22:00] night stargazing.

Or they’ll be, hey an ice cold, drinking, some hot weather somewhere. And, you don’t get these like it mild and, possibly rainy, no trees, no, no leaves on the trees. You don’t see that. That’s not what people are looking for when they’re looking for this experience. It’s not a the people that are doing it do have some resource.

It’s not a third world environment. It’s a luxury environment. So you do get those extremes. And we’ve just recognized just bringing this product to market, that what instantly is giving people confidence is that they could go and set up a site in the heat or in the cool, and they’re actually using the same product.

And that’s. I think a critical piece of some of the things that we’ve realized that we’ve have to continue designing against, focusing in both of those directions. But yeah, I would say that a huge piece of the persons that are coming to us looking for solutions, were having a conversations about extending their season, developing for a four season glamping experience.

Hey, some of them live 12, 14 hours away from their [00:23:00] glamping site. Just a modicum more of security on site with the building. The lack of maintenance is starting to become more attractive long term.

Ruben: Yeah. And something I’ve heard a lot, I think I’ve heard it three times now in the last two or three months, and I hadn’t heard it before and I can’t take credit for it cause I’ve, I’ve heard other people say it, but it’s been, a lot of times in the front end of projects or people. , in project number two, three or four, as they’re learning, they’ve already made their kind of their learnings, but they’ve used the phrase like this or this phrase exactly.

We’re too poor to buy cheap. And because they’ve realized that, you end up paying for it at some point in time and usually it’s more expensive. And we just don’t have the resources at this point to develop cheap design. Cheap buy cheap. And I think that’s a lesson that this market is starting to learn.

And it happens to be one of those lessons you can only learn once you’ve learned it type of deal. And so I think that’s been a, an important concept is yeah, realize you can crunch the numbers and maybe it looks good if you put something cheap on the ground and [00:24:00] just get things up and running.

There’s a space for that. There is some benefit as people are trying to get proof of concept, but really as you’re trying to develop, you pay for it at some point in time, you’re gonna have to pay for it if you buy it cheap. , 

Jim: and you could probably comment on this, but you do have, you do have the guy who is, or the development of the glamping site, which is actually a different style of mindset than somebody who has camp a Campground and they might be putting up some accommodations on a Campground.

That’s actually two slightly different conversations. I’m starting to notice, but you can comment. 

Cara: Yeah, I agree. I think that was, I was going to mention that from the operator perspective too. I think, we are seeing a big influx of kind of investment groups and some money that maybe doesn’t have a ton of specific industry experience.

And this is Canada specific. I can only speak for here, but. So they’re those guys are looking to quickly get a co, get roofs up, make things happen so they can start getting heads in beds. Whereas [00:25:00] a more established operator who’s maybe working on a diversification strategy or a way to expand into their shoulder seasons and maybe into the winter I think those guys are making different choices at that stage of their business than the other guys.

And to Ru’s point, I don’t think either is wrong, like the, I think that there’s a place for either of the, both of those things. But I think a lot of the strategy around that comes from how long you’ve been in the industry, what stage or phase your business is in. And that exit strategy stuff does, I think, come into play.

In that concept too, if you’re, looking to make sure. Your financials look a certain way. That plays into the strategy too. Occupancy nights, all those things I, I think are factors. It’s very nuanced dynamic right now specifically in Canada.

Brian: I think everywhere, like this strategy is so big and so comprehensive, which I think is why you see like people on the show, right?

You need an architect, you need a marketer, you need a glamping association. You need because you can’t do all the strategy [00:26:00] and think of all the things through yourself. And you could even use our sponsor here that I keep forgetting to mention, which is Horizon Outdoor Hospitality that does third party management for campgrounds and clamping resorts.

Really thankful for them for sponsoring the show. And, sorry I forgot to mention you until halfway through, but we’re definitely grateful for Scott Foos and his team to do a great job managing a bunch of resorts all over the country. So there’s my little segue now you guys can take over with. Everything else

Cara: Yeah, I think transition stuff is interesting right now in, in Canada, again, I’m using Canada as the use case cause that’s what I’m exposed to. But we are seeing a ton of shift where, I’ve got some operators who’ve been involved in the industry or in the associations themselves for a couple of decades and they’re selling, and so we’re losing those assets in terms of their industry awareness and things like that.

At the association level, oftentimes those new buyers aren’t prioritizing association membership and things like that that’s a bit of a loss sometimes to the associations. 

Brian: Can I interrupt you just for a second [00:27:00] and ask about that? Because I think that’s a key component and I think maybe Ruben can help answer that a little bit because we see that, traditionally years and years ago, at least in the traditional Campground association, I’m not picking on anybody right.

And maybe just associations in general. Maybe it’s not a Campground thing, that’s just what I’m exposed to. But they have tended to not evolve as fast as private businesses in a lot of their offerings or benefits or things they provide to members. And so is it a question of these new money or new people or new investments that are coming into the space, do they want to be a part of an association?

They just don’t see the benefit of it because they’re not evolving. Because I think there’s a lot of people who are involved in aga, right? Ruben, who are these new people who are coming in to the space? And I think part of that is what you offer. 

Cara: Yeah. Comes down to benefit and all of that. I’m more mean in a loss in terms of.

Those really knowledgeable members. 

Brian: Oh, okay. Okay. The decades of experience. Okay. 

Cara: Those guys who show up and they’re on the [00:28:00] board calls every time, they all always have great input about the industry and because they know it, it’s, they breathe it and have lived it for a long time. Those, that’s a loss to us at. Association level that I think is, can be tough to overcome. And we have to I agree totally. The level of benefit and all of that stuff that you’re bringing to your members is going to rebuild that and, you’ll get that basis back. 

Brian: But I do think that temporary loss and yes. Sorry, I just misunderstood what you’re saying. 

Cara: no worries. Communication barrier, it’s fine. I do think there is a generational gap or something happening right now where we have a lot of prior, like mom and pop owners shifting out and not as many folks coming in. We’re seeing more kind of corporate investment groups and stuff like that, grabbing those properties up instead of like generational transition or whatnot.

I think that has a lot to do with access to financing and all of that. It’s tough for just anybody to get their hands on the money to purchase a property. But we’re also seeing unfortunate things [00:29:00] happen where, Campground, prior Campground properties are being bought up by developers and they’re building condos and things there.

Those are all hurdles that have to be addressed, but I think and I think it’s a big driver for why operators are doing these strategic shifts to adding, blending, really leveling up their experience offerings and, doing stuff like they’re doing in Idaho with the, expanding their season as long, possibly year round as they can.

Those things are market driven and it’s really interesting to see it all happening at once. Bizarre. 

Jim: Yeah. And I suppose you do have to, you do it from a, take it from a large investor’s perspective. This industry’s been what, five, eight years really going from a glamping perspective.

Yeah, we, I’ve spoken to people who’ve returned on their money in two, three years. Yeah. And not just, once multiple people who are returning significant amount on roi, on investment money, that’s not gonna attract the investors. What is, they [00:30:00] say that making three to 6% on your money is good.

I’ve seen people making double that, which is incredible. So that’s, I think for us, is where we’ve noticed there’s been investment of money in corporations purchasing some of these operator sites, but they’re also businessmen. So they’re also like, okay, we can do this and we can perhaps do it again.

But what about the long term view on this? So I think that’s where definitely in line with what you’re saying is there’s been a shift, or there is currently becoming, there is a. 

Cara: They really have that entrepreneurial mindset to continue that ROI stuff. They have pressure to deliver, investment returns and all of that.

That does really drive ingenuity. I agree. 

Alessandro: Sorry. Just the question if you, if I understand you correctly you’re saying that in like in the state on newly created glamping locations and afterwards the existing campgrounds. So the [00:31:00] idea and start implementing it on the, 

Zachary: I think we’re really talking about kind of the institutionalization of the industry.

Yeah. You know what, in its infancy, I think we had a lot of independent operators. Yeah. We had, mom and pops. We had people that inherited a Campground from their parents or. Had family land that they, started a glamping resort on. And we’re seeing that shift, some of, we, we get several calls a week about new potential resort development, and we’re seeing more and more established developers and it’s interesting that there, there seems to be commonality in some of the industries that they’re trying to exit to get into glamping.

I’ve probably talked to a half a dozen different developers that have done mini storage and they’ve been in that market’s starting to get saturated. They’re bored with it. It’s, there’s nothing exciting about building a mini storage facility. But they’ve made a lot of money and they’ve done some development [00:32:00] and they’re looking at what else can we get in?

And when they look at it, all their mini storage facilities, and they’re all full of RVs, they’re saying maybe we should start looking at Camping. Or maybe we should be looking at the RV industry. The same with ho hospitality. We’ve met with developers that they’ve been franchisees under a major flag.

Hey, we’ve done 15 Marriotts, we’ve done 30 Hiltons. And they’re very well ingrained in that traditional hospitality industry. And they’re saying, we’ve seen our numbers drop, and we’ve been to the trade shows and we’ve seen the numbers that are projected on glamping. And during Covid when all of our hotels were sitting empty or at, 10 and 15% occupancy, all these glamping resorts were busting at the seams, and people couldn’t get a reservation for six months or nine months.

So they’re waking up and they’re starting to look at how do we get into this industry? I think, the last growth number, Ruben could probably help me out with it, but I think the last growth number I [00:33:00] heard for the glamping industry in the United States is, We’re expected to top 5 billion in the next couple of years.

And so I think when there’s that much money, when the market is, out there, glamping is not a new thing anymore. Yeah. And it doesn’t take convincing to get people to try it any longer. This is an established industry. We’re, I’d say we’re teenagers in the United States where Europe is probably more the middle age.

That’s why their focus, I think is on, on families and kids. I think we’ll get there. I think there’s we’re still really driven by, younger couples, gen Z gen X millennials for sure. But I think one of the things that, that we’re starting to see with the interest in this institutional capital Is that shift where people they’re used to development.

They’re used to taking on risk. They’re used to doing these other projects, and they’re looking at glamping as a way to move into a new market in a market that’s maybe not as volatile or not susceptible like some of their previous investments have been. And I think that’s [00:34:00] what is part of what’s driving the shift there.

Cara: So that to me brings up an interesting, do you think that there’s, or do we have suggestions for those little guys to stay competitive in this environment? Yes. 

Brian: I do that’s part of what we do with just the marketing side of it, from my perspective, . Kind of levels.

The playing field with the technology that’s available to you, it’s obviously much more available now than it was even five, 10 years ago. 

Zachary: But yeah, I would say, I think that the biggest thing that, and this is the reason I don’t think all this institutional capital is necessarily threatening to a small operator, is there’s number, the number one thing we look at from a guest experience perspective.

And I think, I’d be interested to hear Alessandro’s perspective on this. It’s authenticity. It, it comes down to what does a guest experience when they’re on site. And I think that authentic experience that [00:35:00] people in outdoor hospitality are really pursuing that they’re really wanting to get, I think it’s still easier for an independent operator, a small glamping resort to deliver that really authentic guest experience.

Brian: I a hundred percent agree with that, and I want to give Alessandro a chance to answer the question that’s the same, it’s the same. It’s the experience. And I don’t think they realize who it’s owned by, if the experience is the same. And I also don’t think that when people talk about leveling the playing field in some cases that there’s a lot of institutional people who call me who have never done any marketing or don’t know what they’re doing or, and so you might have the money to theoretically do better than some small mom and pop owners, but that doesn’t mean they’re deploying it in the right way.

But go ahead, Allesandro.

Oh, we can, okay. Nevermind. I’m sorry. It was my fault. It’s just a lip screen error issue. 

Alessandro: Now I think on the European market, and I’m not talking specifically at, because in Europe they are very close to each other. There have been [00:36:00] quite big.

Consolidation going on over the past few years where mainly backed by private equity acquired a lot of businesses creating at this moment, two big groups that are having which is huge for European standards. And this discussion be meaning. What’s the added value of a private owned company and what’s the one who has much, much more capital is exactly the customer experience.

And in my opinion at the end, there will be enough place for both. Because you have different, probably the bigger scale groups will be more efficient and probably come at a lower price level with more standardized quality. And the private more margins by having a higher sales price with a higher added value for the customer.

And at the end a very different customer experience direct. We are going [00:37:00] in Europe, 

Brian: and I think that’s the same thing we see with the hotels still, right? There’s plenty of room for all the Marriotts and all the Hiltons and all those, and they’re obviously way larger than the glamping space is or may ever be.

Yeah. But there’s still plenty of room for the boutique operators and the small people who, the big people tried to do it right. I h d bought Kimpton and ruined that brand, which is my favorite hotel brand, but more boutique hotels popped up right behind them. So yeah, you see that? Is that how you view it, Ruben?

Ruben: Yeah. I just put one last thought in there, to add onto that. Is that it? I think the key word or the magic phrase that ties it all together is, , what is that Operator’s definition of success? Because for example, we work with a lot of people that come in and say, great, this is gonna be property number one of 10 and we’re gonna have, and it’s I love that’s the aspiration, but what is your, the realistic definition of success?

Because for some, that definition is being able to take a brand and take it to 10 different properties. And [00:38:00] for some it’s just having a lifestyle, self-sustaining property that produces some cash flow that they can figure out what to do and have a place to stay. And it’s a unique experience. And so I think that last part is that sometimes those definitions become outta whack.

And that is, I think the. Phrase in there, because until that’s aligned and until there’s a realistic perception of what reality will actually, look like for them, then it doesn’t matter what that success can or can’t be because it’s not aligned with what their expectations are. And so I think that’s an important, no, there’s no, there’s a million different models that still work in this space.

Everything from more boutique to higher end to experiences, not experienced off grid, on grid. I That’s why people really gravitate towards this space. But I think the quicker people can get to a realistic, Plan and pathway of what success looks like for them, the [00:39:00] easier everything that we’re talking about now can take shape.

Cuz until that exercise actually happens, you’re always gonna be outta whack, right? You’re always gonna be a few steps behind. You’re always gonna do three steps forward, four steps back. 

Brian: So I think that’s what’s the multi-pronged approach too, right? It’s what success can look like, but it’s also what your definition of success is too.

And they blend together. 

Cara: And I think it can evolve too, right? think over time you’re, I know when I first had a Campground fall in my lap, I was like, if we can stay open for this next year, , that’s success to me. But then, after that, once we crossed that hurdle, it was like, okay, now we’re gonna move that target a little bit.

Zachary: Which, no, I think that’s a really interesting way to look at it. And there’s a lot of wisdom in that statement. I think and thinking. Previous, in our conversation too, contextually, to an independent operator, success could be, this gives me something [00:40:00] that I enjoy doing and I look forward to, meeting all of our guests when they check in every day.

They’re definition of suc success could be, this gives me a way that I can cash flow and I can take care of this property. Maybe it’s a generational family property, and this gives me the ability to hold on to this when I thought maybe that wasn’t gonna be possible. As a way to keep something in their family to a big capital wealth fund that’s investing in a project.

Their definition of success could be a balance sheet, right? I want to see the numbers, I want to see this work. We’ve gotta be accountable to our investors and. , it could be purely financial and I, that’s fine. That’s, that’s how the world of business works, but I think there’s a lot of those intangibles that can be measured and I think for a lot of those startups, independent operators, small operators, yeah, of course you wanna make money, but I doubt that’s at the top of the list for any of them.

Of what they’re the reason that they’re in the glamping industry or the reason that they wanna to own and operate a resort. 

Brian: Yeah, I think you’re [00:41:00] probably right. It’s one of the things that I honestly struggle with. I think we all struggle with that in some ways, right? We have our own internal versions of success, and then we try to kind of project those on others, which is maybe another reason that associations are so valuable because Ruben hears them all and Cara hears them all, and then they can disseminate that and talk it through with people.

And I think that’s maybe another hidden valuable resource that maybe you guys should promote more often, but,

Cara: I’ll get right on that. , 

Brian: i, does it make sense what I’m saying? Like I fall into that trap where I think everybody should have the same version of success as me and I don’t really believe that, but that’s just when we’re talking about the fourth 

Ruben: we say a bunch is, everybody has their own in any industry.

But specifically here, everybody has their own finish line. Totally. And they’re the ones who have to wake up every single morning and be excited about what they’re doing. And I’m not waking up for them, I’m not doing that hard work for them. Like they’re the ones who have to do that. And if they’re not, doesn’t matter.

The types of tools and [00:42:00] resources, that’s available, doesn’t matter the types of engagements or connections that could be made. And that’s, important concept of their finish line is gonna be different. And it’s easy in this space, just like in other spaces to compare. I want to be like this organization, I wanna be like that manufacturer.

I wanna be like that, operator, cuz they yeah. Set the bar high or whatnot. But that’s almost a dangerous, mindset because you’re never gonna be just like them. Like even if you tried to be right. Ne there’s countless examples of operations that are right next to each other that have tried to be like, somewhat like each other and they’re so different, right?

Because of what the land gives you because of what the local town gives you because of what the scenery gives you and things like that. And so I think everybody has their own finish line and I think there’s a level of people just needing to embrace that. That’s fine. This space embraces the unique, so don’t run.

Away, run, run to that idea, right? 

Brian: Because no one finish line is better than anyone else’s finish line. 

Cara: That’s my favorite thing about this industry is it’s so variable. Every [00:43:00] single property is different, every operator is different. If you had asked me in the height of those days, the top, my top success metric was I get to have my kids with me all day, every day at work.

I got a chicken coop, I get to be social. My extrovert self has all these new people to chat with all the time. None of it was related to like financial performance or any of those things. For me. There were other people in the organization who did prioritize that stuff. But for me personally, my own the things I was benefiting from that lifestyle were. bigger priorities to me than the bottom line. And I achieved them and I say all the time still, my kids are teenagers now, but I’m great. I, my kids never set foot in daycare. They were out dirty in the Campground all the time. I love that for them, and I’m glad I got to raise them in that way.

To me, that’s a metric of success in, in, in my life that I’d never change. 

Brian: And it is a re it’s a really valuable lesson to hear, not just from, to, to reinforce. And some of us have heard this before and [00:44:00] know this already and practice it. And some of us need me, right? I need more practice with it.

But it’s a very valuable thing no matter what industry you’re in, whether you’re the owner to, to figure out what your success is or whether you’re an architect or a manufacturer of domes. Because you can help understand how to communicate with your customer better and empathize with them and create a better product or service to, the customers if you’re in Italy or the Netherlands or whatever else, understanding what they want and what you know you can provide to them.

That’s better. And just seeing, stepping into somebody else’s shoes right? Is really what it comes down to. And sometimes we forget to do that. 

Cara: Empathy. What is that? , the association. Best Association Benefits. Empathy. We can, we all have our own finish line. I love that. Ruben, I’m gonna steal that from you

Ruben: all yours. 

Cara: Oh, thanks.

Zachary: The one I’ve heard is everyone has their own measuring stick. And if, if you’re holding yours up to someone else they’re always gonna fall short, right? 

Brian: Yeah. Cara, come up with your own phrase. Don’t steal Rubens 

Cara: too [00:45:00] late. ,

Ruben: I stole it from somebody else though.

Cara: Trademark. Yeah. No, I I love to see all the ingenuity, the adaptability of this business continues to amaze me as. Time goes on and we see, manufacturers like NovaDome. It’s great to see stuff like that here in Canada too. I constantly have members asking me for Canadian made product and things like that.

It’s amazing to hear that we’re getting there with that stuff. We’re a little behind, but we’re getting there. 

Brian: All right. Any final thoughts here? We got a couple minutes left on the show, Alessandro. I know we accidentally lost you and cut you off earlier. Did you wanna finish any of your thoughts we had before?

Alessandro: Just one. As I said in the beginning, this is with the the industry in your countries, and I think it’s it’s very interesting to see that the themes that you are discussing are I think 100 at this moment discussed in the European industry. I think at the beginning, you.

Said in Europe, you are a bit ahead compared [00:46:00] to to, to the state and Canada. Calling our rental accommodations glamping for a bit longer time. But based on what I saw like on, on the internet glamping in your countries, and I think it’s at least what I saw in the pictures it’s even more the thought out than in Europe where I think we have the big challenge that the words glamping itself have been abused in some cases about like how may do we make sure that it still meaningful for certain standards.

Because it will lose his strengths. And that’s that’s I think a big challenge we have. So I dunno if we still have time, but I’m curious if if you have the same thing. 

Brian: Ruben, Zack, Jim. 

Zachary: I hear that terminology a lot where Yeah, I think because glamping has been around longer in, in some other countries or some other markets that it’s easy to believe that [00:47:00] it’s more established or, that all these same challenges that, that we’ve talked about today don’t exist there as well.

Or like they’ve got it all figured out. I think really, and I’d be interested in hearing Ruben’s perspective on this. I think the US glamping market is younger, but I think we’re also working harder to make up ground faster. And I think some of the new innovations, the new products the investment that it takes to really advance that I think is being driven stronger by the North American market than probably anywhere else in the world.

And I hesitate to even say that because I’ve seen what’s happening in Asia right now and they are working hard to make up ground fast. And the incredible things that I’m seeing come out of Asia right now are, I think really pushing the worldwide market to, to advance. So yeah, I think we’re young, but I think we’re working hard to really push the envelope.

Brian: And I would say if you know anybody in Asia who we can have on the show, [00:48:00] let’s bring them on and unpack that because I’d love we obviously cover all that on Modern Campground, but it’s harder for us to. to break into those new markets versus where we are. 

Zachary: No there’s definitely some some suppliers and manufacturers that are doing some, I had an incredible phone call yesterday with a group that is building structures completely out of bamboo with a focus on sustainable renewable projects.

And it was, they were showing me things that even I was blown away by. And, I’m asking questions about can we use this and how can we use this? And they’re like, yeah, we’ve been doing this for 10 years. And so it was, I think every time we think we’re an expert when it comes to something that’s usually when you’re asking for one of those experiences to be humbled a little bit.

Right? ? Yeah, for sure. 

Ruben: Hey guys, it’s just like what we just mentioned. We can’t measure ourselves against somebody else. Everybody has a different measuring stick, yeah. No, but I think you guys are spot on and it’s just different, right? Every, I’m sure everybody in the North American market would want, like what the European market has it, [00:49:00] where people think of the outdoors as synonymous with glamping and everybody’s comfortable with that term.

And people have been doing it for a while. And I’m sure that everybody in the European market is jealous of just the endless amounts of terrain and land that we have. And when people say big orders, it blows them away of like how much a big order and property looks it’s always gonna be like that.

And then to your point, Zack, Asia, you think of the Australian market doing a lot of exciting. There’s always gonna be somebody doing something a little bit better. Always gonna be somebody who’s a little bit ahead doing something a little bit more innovative. And the best we can all do is just.

Stay at and get to our finish line. Yeah, 

Brian: I think that’s, and I think it’s great that there’s always somebody better than you, no matter who you are, because it, you can choose, do I wanna catch up to them? Do I wanna stay where I’m at? Am I happy? Again, but I think that’s great. 

Cara: Incredibly motivating

Zachary: Keep in mind too, the rising tide gathers all ships, right? Success in all these different markets. It doesn’t matter what country it’s in [00:50:00] it’s all working to advance this industry as a whole. And that’s a good thing for all of us. 

Cara: Agreed. 

Brian: All right, guys, will, I wanna wrap up by thanking our sponsor who has an outdoor hospitality again for sponsoring another episode of the Glamping Show here that we have once a month.

Super appreciative for all you guys for appearing as regular panelists as special guest, Alessandro, especially. I know it’s really late there Thank you for staying up with us and I’d just love to stay in touch with, Alessandro with people from Asia, with Europe, from everywhere the States, Canada.

Just seeing how they do things differently and constantly adjusting our perspectives is awesome. Like I really feel like you can’t beat hearing someone else’s story. Yeah. Totally. Deciding what to do with it. So thank you guys. 

Alessandro: If you want travel if you travel to Europe let me know.

Brian: no, I’ll be in Europe. I’ll be in Europe. I’ll, thanks. Take care guys. 

Alessandro: Thank you. Bye-bye. 

[00:51:00]