MC Fireside Chats – March 6th, 2024

This is MC Fireside Chats, a weekly show featuring conversations with thought leaders, entrepreneurs, and outdoor hospitality experts who share their insights to help your business succeed. Hosted by Brian Searl, the founder and CEO of Insider Perks. Empowered by insights from Modern Campground, the most innovative news source in the industry.[00:01:00] 

Mike Harrison: All right, happy Wednesday and good afternoon to everyone. I am not Brian Searl. My name is Mike Harrison. I am the Chief Operating Officer of CRR Hospitality and I am happy to guest host this week Modern Campground Fireside Chats. Brian is enjoying the outdoor hospitality and is currently in Maui.

I just, we have to question his commitment. Normally we’ll see him on the deck, in Canada with some snow behind him or with a beer in his hand somewhere else outside. I don’t know why we don’t get to see him on the beach. Maybe we don’t want to see him in his Speedo, but that’s probably the reason, but we wish Brian all the best and glad he’s able to join enjoy the outdoors while he’s away.

We got a great group on today. We’ll have some great engaging discussions and hope to have a great show. Welcome everybody. [00:02:00] How’s everybody doing? Great. Great. Great. Wonderful. Who is the coldest right now, do you think?

Sandy Ellingson: Looking outside Mark’s window, it looks like it might be him. 

Mark Koep: Yeah, I’m in York, Pennsylvania, so I’m up here for the York RV Show, which kicks off Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. This show is put on by the Pennsylvania Campground Owners Association, and so we’re here. And it’s not that cold, though. I’m from Wyoming, so it’s 55 and drizzly out, so we’re out playing and having fun in it.

But yeah, the locals think it’s cold. 

Mike Harrison: What’s the temp? 

Mark Koep: About 55. 

Mike Harrison: That’s not cold. Chrissy probably has you beat. 

Christine Taylor: Where am I? I think I’m similar. It’s warm. We’re getting towards spring, so I think I’m in the low 50s myself today. 

Mike Harrison: Oh, you’re in the warmest then. Sandy, where are you at? 

Sandy Ellingson: I’m in Florida Central Florida, really [00:03:00] South Florida almost, so it’s about 78 degrees and raining.

Mike Harrison: I don’t think you got us beat. We’re sunny. 76th and Sunday today in Arizona. So that’s nice. It’s scattered around the country. We hope Casey Cochran from Camp Spot joins us as well. I’ve got a couple of great topics to go with, but first I wanted to see if there’s any hot topics on anyone’s mind that we got to get out on the table.

Somebody’s got something that 

Mark Koep: Brian’s not here, but I do want to give him kudos. I sat in on his presentation this last week at the Ohio conference and he talked about AI and he talked to a group of park owners who have never even heard him talk about AI. And. He’s just really good at communicating the value of what’s coming and the way this is going to impact everything, but in particular park owners.

And so I just want to give him kudos. It was a very good presentation and the owners walked away from that show or from that presentation with a lot of value from it. So I just want to give him, he’s not here. He can’t hear it, but he did a really good job. 

Mike Harrison: Hopefully he listens to the recording and see how badly I messed up his show, but.

I echo that, and we all know Brian, he is never going to [00:04:00] tout his own services, it’s just not who he is but I met with Jeff Hoffman and his group 20 group yesterday, and we were talking exactly about that with some of the park owners there about Campy, the CRHospitality, it’s called Rigsby, but his whole AI chat bot that he built and developed and what value that is to the industry and to the individual park owners, I echo your sentiment, Mark, and since Brian will never pat himself on the back, we can all do that for him.

Let’s give him a virtual thank you. Other hot topics. 

Mark Koep: There’s this, and I actually want to get Sandy’s opinion on this. So in the social media world, and this, I think this is important because it impacts our industry because it’s a perception of the product people use for it.

So there’s a brand of RV, it’s a fifth wheel brand. I don’t want to name them right now, but there’s a brand that’s been highlighted and sold to full time RVers and these full time RVers have been dragging these units around the country for the last four or five years. And there’s a large volume of them now that are having serious issues Or serious perceived issues with the quality of the [00:05:00] construction of these RVs.

And there are, it’s really a hot topic in the social media world. And I can say that Lippert actually did a social media, they invited big truck, big RV to come down to their factory and do some videos on it. And they did a really good job. My concern more is from a campground industry side.

These type of stories are a negative impact on the perception of buying and using an RV on the road. And so it’s actually dangerous, I believe, towards our industry that this is such a widely discussed topic. But it’s a topic that’s out there nonetheless. So I just wanted to bring it to your attention and bring it to everybody’s attention.

And I wonder, even, putting Sandy on the spot, if you’ve heard anything or have any opinion on this. Because you do run in the manufacturing side a little bit. And if you’ve heard of what I’m talking about, cause I, I’m seeing the conversation on the consumer side and it’s very vocal and it’s very negative right now, in my opinion, with camping in the outdoors.

Sandy Ellingson: It’s interesting that you brought that up because some of it I cannot discuss, but I have absolutely been following it in social media. [00:06:00] And I’ve been, was very privileged to be down here this week at the RVIA leadership conference, and getting to meet with not only some of the leaderships in the campgrounds, because they were here actually for the campground coalition meeting, but also meeting with some of the senior members of the industry, and I really want, to applaud Lippert for being willing to bring in Big Truck, Big RV to try and discuss this.

Ultimately, I believe that so much of this goes back to what I believe is a continuing problem in that we don’t have proper education of the consumer. Not in every single case, but in a lot of the cases, These are people who have bought or started camping. Like right at COVID or around that time, and they are overloading their units.

And people just don’t understand how important it is to check the weight [00:07:00] because all of that creates and adds problems as you go down the road. I certainly won’t say that in every case, it was not a manufacturing issue, but in many cases. It was that we’re not using the rig based on the guidelines we are given.

But then we’re not doing that because we’ve really not been educated. I mean I don’t know how many people go out looking for a rig and say, Oh, what’s the GBWR on this rig? Because I’ve literally been in the lots with people that are driving fifth wheels off the lot and their toes are like this because even the salesperson doesn’t recognize that’s too much weight for that vehicle that’s towing it.

So there was a lot of conversation about how do we face this together and what’s the best way and how do we determine. And I’m really hoping that a lot of us that are actually on this together in the back on the, in the times when we’re not in front of the camera, when we’re talking on the back, are going to help solve some of this with the industry.

I’ve [00:08:00] committed all of you, by the way. 

Mark Koep: Yeah, it’s, if y’all haven’t, aren’t familiar with this, it’s a big conversation going on amongst the big influencers that are on YouTube and social media and such, and it’s actually a very viral conversation. People like dirt, right? They like drama.

As a result, it’s spiraling to the point where instead of talking about the enjoyment and freedom that camping offers, these are folks talking about, The financial nightmares they face because the RV frame is potentially cracked and what that implies. And so it’s a different connotation. I just see it from a marketing and communication standpoint as a gigantic, oh moment.

And so I’m very, I do give kudos to Lippert for allowing that interview to happen. That was a very smart move on their part. The manufacturer that’s in the spotlight hasn’t really responded publicly. And I would encourage them if they’re, if they, they’re not paying attention to this video, but if they were.

Y’all need to address it, even if it’s biting the bullet and just solving the problem for these individual customers. That squeaky wheel, just put a little bit of oil on it so it stops squeaking [00:09:00] so loud. Yeah, 

Sandy Ellingson: They always say even bad publicity is good publicity. And so I think there’s a way of even turning around some of the negativity by at least responding to it in some way.

But again, it’s so interesting in the world of social media. So much damage can be done, and at the same time, the very people may want to respond, but they can’t because of liability. And maybe, Kristen, you could even speak to this. If somebody responds, it’s almost like they’re acknowledging it, and now they open themselves up to a lawsuit.

They’re sitting there with their hands tied, wanting to do the right thing, but asking lawyers, can we? And the lawyers are being on the protect this company side, which is that’s their job, right? So it becomes a very interesting scenario, which is why I believe that other people may have to stand up and educate and help them in this process.

[00:10:00] Yeah, 

Christine Taylor: Sandy’s right. Generally, if say this was one of my clients, we would advise them to be quiet at this time and not say anything as you’re ferreting things out behind the scenes. Campers, whether, they’re a travel trailer or a fifth wheel, have always fallen into a strange category for these type of things.

Motorhomes in a lot of states end up under the Levin Law, but campers themselves are excluded. So how those are negotiated are completely different and there’s just a lot of extraneous pieces, so 

 I always say, I’ve done talks about this before, that there’s always PR and legal, and depending on how large the possible claim is, you might have to give up some on the PR side because of the legal side.

Conversely, if the claim was really small, I’d be like, this might just be a gimme don’t Mess up your wonderful reputation by [00:11:00] not doing anything. That’s a way that I might be like, we’ll throw this out the window and you can say something. But your first day of press is your only day of press.

That’s your ground zero. So once you break that seal, it’s out there and your statements, in fact, absolutely can be used against you. On the court of law, and when I, even on social media or Facebook, because in every type of case I have, one of the things either side demands is the social media accounts of the people being sued, because you’re hoping somebody slipped up and put something out there That’s That I can then, blow up a really big in court and be like, but then why did you say this?

If you don’t think that you did anything wrong. So I think you nailed that on the head. I think, unfortunately, there’s an interplay between the two. And if there are legal ramifications, then they’ve been probably told to keep silent about it at this time. Yeah. 

Sandy Ellingson: Great. Yeah. And I certainly don’t speak for the industry, nor do I want to.

But I am [00:12:00] absolutely willing to advocate and defend the people that I know are doing right, whether it’s a campground, or an OEM, or a camper and I have been a part of conversations where there’s one specific person that’s involved in this that their camper is no longer usable, and they were stranded.

And so the significant loss of Assets and just a lot of things, but the, there were people in the industry that wanted to help them and they totally understood it. But if you start and you help one, can you help everybody or will the others follow and do what you’re doing? And so it’s terrible that we’ve gotten into this world where you can’t just do the right thing anymore.

You have to worry about doing the right thing because somebody might perceive it as the wrong thing. So that’s why I really feel like, again, education is the key to so much of this. If we are educating the consumer before they buy. And then we educate [00:13:00] the people that are selling it because so many are getting out there without the proper training to be able to sell it.

Then I think we can solve or at least, curtail a lot of these situations. 

Mike Harrison: I think that’s good information and something everybody should keep an eye on. I’m not sure. And, if they aren’t then they get a free plug but Brian always forgets to put up the sponsor to the end so we’ve got to make sure that our episode, it might or might not be sponsored by Fireside Accounting and whether it is or it isn’t obviously they’re a great specialized company for folks that need accounting in their parks and resorts and properties, there you go. 

Mark Koep: Yes, so the next thing, yeah, I want to bring up, Mike, is so dovetailing on that, we’ve got this negative side, but on the positive side is this upcoming eclipse that’s going to affect a large part of the United States, and like the eclipse of two, I think it was two or three years ago, that was really hot, like everybody went, this one is shaping up to be that way.

People are getting on the RVs and they’re [00:14:00] traveling, and we’ve even got client parks that are up in the The New England area, the Northeastern states that are opening early to bring in and invite this traffic in. So I, I don’t know, Scott, if you have data on this or what, but it seems like this is another really good thing for our industry.

Cause it’s getting people thinking about camping and the adventures that they can do earlier in the season. 

Scott Bahr: We’re seeing a big it’s building every time we met, we’ve been measuring it for the last three or four months and it just keeps building every, it’s the you can see the enthusiasm.

We’ve been measuring both campers and leisure travelers. A lot of the RVers, the RV, Community is really psyched about this. There’s, we’re even seeing maybe some potential for people who aren’t normally RVers gonna rent and hop in or borrow RVs so they can drive and stay because accommodations are hard to come by right now.

I don’t hear in Maine the, I know Spacious Skies just opened up their park that’s in the path, which is Near where I have a vacation property [00:15:00] too. And we’re right in the middle of it. Not, yeah, not right in the middle. I’m exaggerating a little bit, but yeah. So in, in our area, everybody there is really looking forward to it.

So yeah, we’re seeing a blip and we’ll be in the KOA monthly report that I just got through looking at that’ll be coming out in the next few days to, to actually show the numbers that, and the growth itself. It’s pretty exciting, yeah, and people want to be outside for it hopefully our weather will cooperate.

Jeff Hoffman: Yeah, most of the northern parks that are in the path are opening in April, which normally they don’t, and quite a few of them are already booked the way we look at that up north is it’s free money because we’re not open, so if we make a dollar, we did a lot better, if we don’t bust our water lines.

Mike Harrison: And for those that don’t know, that’s Jeff Hoffman speaking Darth Vader compared to his screen there, since you can’t see him. So you’re saying people are going to love the eclipse. Would that be a total eclipse of the heart? I’m just I’m just checking. But [00:16:00] Mark, to your point, any, anytime there’s great, news about our industry, it just helps, build momentum which is a great segue to one of the topics I wanted to talk about is, it’s about a week, past the news here, but I’m sure everybody saw the really big news about AutoCamp and the Hilton partnership.

And for me that’s industry changing type news. So I’d like to hear. Other people’s thoughts. Welcome, Casey, to the call. On what you think about the the recent news about Hilton and AutoCamp.

Mark Koep: Yeah, I’ll jump in. The big thing that I thought about is that was a huge stamp of approval on the glamping industry. It’s also a huge stamp of approval on the auto, and I don’t speak for AutoCamp, Never actually met with anybody from that organization, but just on their processes for helping to be willing to take those bookings, it shows that there’s a level of professionalism operating within that entity where they felt comfortable enough to tie their brand to it and know that they could take bookings.

And I think that the big step [00:17:00] there is for a lot of the the smaller parks, the more mom and pop locations is this is an important step that, Suggests you really need to up your game if you’re offering cabins or glamping accommodations that people that are outside of our industry in this case that was normally booked through Hilton have the potential to come book at your park.

They’re going to expect a Hilton level of experience when they do that. 

Mike Harrison: Sure. I think, and Scott, I’d be interested in your opinion as well from the research and data and industry specific side, but. If you go back four years ago I was, coming from the hotel world when I joined the outdoor hospitality world, I said, I think eventually Marriott is going to buy one of these other companies, an US or an auto camp or an under canvas.

And I think that still may happen, but this is that first foray into, the blending of hospitality and outdoor hospitality and what, to me it does. It’s distribution, right? We are now touching millions and [00:18:00] millions of customers that we would never have touched before. And even though it may only be AutoCamp that’s partnering with Hilton, it may open, customers eyes that have never seen the outdoor hospitality to say I wonder what else is out there?

What other glamping properties? Or, Oh, wow, what about these RVs? What are Airstreams and, RV resorts and campgrounds? And so I think it’s It is completely game changing, and I think it’s just the start and, where we are in one year or three years it’s going to be very different, and Mark, that’s exactly what we were saying last week, is it’s going to challenge these parks.

There’s a park and it’s not Jeff, but there’s a park owner I know who still has an AOL email address, 20 years ago and if they don’t evolve it they’re going to die off and they’ve been getting business because, but as more and more supply comes in, it becomes more sophisticated and the marketing distribution is better.

Everybody’s going to have to evolve. And that’s our vision statement of CRR is evolve the industry to the modern world. That is exactly our mission is to, bring revenue management and sales and marketing and operations and [00:19:00] hospitality, in the industry. And I think that’s, this is pivotal to that.

So very exciting. Casey, looks like you got something to add. 

Casey Cochran: I was going to say, I think you hit the nail on the head there. The awareness thing to me is what’s exciting. I’ve mentioned this, I think, numerous times, specifically when we stayed at your place, Mike. It’s awareness, right?

When my best friends, know what I do, and, but they still don’t quite understand what this industry offers, what it has to offer in terms of, Everybody, right? To me, we’ve had this slogan, camping is for everybody, but it truly is in some capacity waiting, I think, for an entire unlock of people that didn’t recognize, not to take anything away from hotels per se, but I think hotels are starting to recognize They better probably get in on some of this because in my humble opinion, it’s such a better experience.

And like I said, I’ve been a myriad snob since I’ve started working basically and traveling all the time. I’ve stayed in thousands of them, right? And so I have a brand that I like from there, but when traveling now, if given the [00:20:00] opportunity or especially with leisure travel, especially, it’s just such a better experience.

And I really do think that we’re truly scratching the surface in terms of the amount of people that truly understand what is available at the campgrounds within this space. And, again, I do think that does lead glamping or cabins or park models. It’s not going to take away from the RV aspect of things.

I think a lot of people recognize if I, that’s their inn, right? That’s their way to just dip their toes in and then recognize, oh my gosh, if I could do this all the time, if I had a trailer, if I had an RV, and then you recognize the amenities that are there, or the area that you’re in, or the mountains in the background, or the sunsets that you get, and you don’t get any of that in, really, in a hotel.

Maybe Sleks, there’s a great rooftop in a perfect location, but for the most part, Those aren’t the things that you’re looking at. So yeah, when I saw that announcement, I think the exciting thing is what you said, is [00:21:00] it’s that audience. And that’s one thing we’ve tried to do our best, come up against critics, criticism at times, but with our marketplaces, we want more people camping, right?

You want to show the beauty of this industry and the space and what it has to offer. And it’s sometimes, it’s not just a gravel spot, right? It’s where it’s at. It’s what the amenities are, what your view is going to be like. What the trees look like and so it’s those images that I think there is a huge still opportunity To widen that customer base and so something like this is I think is really exciting 

Mike Harrison: Yeah, I think it’s an introduction for folks You know I grew up in the hospitality business in the restaurants and hotels 30 years ago And I remember what it was and what it is now is very different and you know in general hotel customers are grumpy You know entitled, privileged, and I always say, an RV resort, you can see two guys in their rigs.

I think I’ve used this analogy before, they’re next to each other, one comes out, opens up his door, this cup of coffee, he’s in his boxers and his [00:22:00] t shirt and the guy crosses in a bathrobe and they’re like, hey Bob, morning Tim, can you imagine if you did that in a hotel and you opened up one door and then you open up the other door and, and there’s a guy in his boxers, they call the police, right?

And so I think, As more people come into our industry and can see the beauty, right? And I know many of you saw my, on LinkedIn, saw my hike to St. Mary’s Glacier in Colorado, right? Those are things that generally you’re just not going to experience when you go to a hotel. And hotels I think are in general transactional where I think, the auto hospitality business reminds everybody what it means to be nice, what it means to have community, what it means to have hospitality.

And so I think this is huge for us and I’m so excited, what it can mean for the future. 

Mark Koep: Mike you all see that I’m in an RV right now. We actually bought a Class C for this trip and we left the end of January to go visit a bunch of trade shows. So we traveled from where our homes in Wyoming, we traveled down to Myrtle Beach, down to Orlando, back to Ohio.

I’m in Pennsylvania. We’re going to go to [00:23:00] Wisconsin, then back to Boston and then home. And I’m doing all this travel in the winter and then early spring. And number one, we’re doing it. For the reasons Mike just said, this is a hell of a lot funner than flying and staying in a hotel and renting a car.

Period. Just way more, way better experience. One. Two, I’m doing it as an experiment, right? We had all these folks buy these Mercedes Sprinter vans, and there’s this, there is this underlying group of folks that do not want to fly and stay in hotels anymore, they’d rather travel in an RV. Could I do it in the winter in an RV?

The northeastern part of the United States. And the answer is, yeah, we’ve had to jump through some hoops to make it happen, but it’s actually very viable. And I think we’re on the cusp of where the parks that closed down in the winter may get to the point where they may want to leave a few sites, even if they’re just electric hookups.

Open year round for folks that are traveling in this style. I’m happy to pay for an electric hookup site because I’ll run an electric heater, we’ll turn the fan on at night to drown out the noise, and we’ll sleep and enjoy your campgrounds in the wintertime. I think that’s the next leap, Mike, is that you still [00:24:00] can’t really RV All over the United States year round, right?

It’s seasonally based down to the southern tier states. I wonder if that’s the case anymore. I could just be unique and I’m stubborn because I was an RVer and I want to do it, I don’t know. I think this may be a trend that others may want to follow. We 

Mike Harrison: had this discussion with Jeff’s group yesterday about seasonality and especially in New England and some of the other northern states and my opinion is it doesn’t have to be.

And especially if you supplement your campground with some glamping too. Because, we were looking at a property up in higher elevation Arizona, big thousand acre property and it was going to be a glamping only resort and, snow in the winter and, but I think there’s a lot of validation to, be able to supplement, in the, because people want to go cross country skiing.

They want to, make snowballs and throw them at their parents and, glamping offers that comfort and if you have some RV spots that, cater to that at the same time. I think it can open up your whole point that next phase of the industry for those seasonality campgrounds that close a way to stay open, keep their staff employed, reduce the staffing challenges of the [00:25:00] seasonality.

Of having to lay off and then hire and, all the things that they go through. So I, just the possibilities here are just endless. 

Scott Bahr: Amazing. I agree with that. Yeah. I’ve been talking about this for a few years now of trying to get people to pay attention to it because the desire is there.

People want these experiences. You hit the nail on the head, Mike. Yeah, the desire is there. And Mark, your experiences, you’re seeing, you’re dipping your toes in it, but we see that where I live. And our winters, not this year, but are typically fairly harsh. But the local campground operators are talking about staying open year round.

And there’s a group here that has just doubled their year capacity and they’ve been full even in this rotten winter we’ve had. They’re as busy as they can be. With those properties with those accommodations. So I feel like the demand is there. The industry just needs to catch up a little bit. The RV industry needs to catch up a little bit and having, winterized and better [00:26:00] insulation and such for some of their models.

But overall, the consumer wants to do that. The guest wants those experiences. They want to have something different. And what happened the last few years with the crowding and such as pushed people. In the wanting to have some different experiences and to be out there where it’s a little more quiet, maybe see things from a different angle.

Anyway, I could talk about this all day. I love this topic. I’ll stop. 

Jeff Hoffman: I think for the northern parks the eclipse is going to be a good experiment because we’re staying open after the eclipse because we turned the water on. We’ll see how much business we get. And then we can, we’re thinking about extending our November season, probably just for weekends, seeing how far we can go into November.

And I think everybody’s looking at that. Unfortunately, I did not design my park models or my water lines to them for four seasons. But we’re looking at converting [00:27:00] some of them over to at least late season, because I do think we’ll get business. 

Sandy Ellingson: And I’ve got a couple of parks in Wisconsin and New York, and these are, they’re smaller parks, but just under 100 sites, but we’re opening up, and the power is going to work fine, but then they’ve got They’ve contracted with guys that do the honey buckets in the water, just like you do when you’re in a rally, and they’re only opening up on weekends, and then the guests are told to come with your tanks full, your water, your fresh water tank full, and then if you run out, they have somebody you can call that’ll fill up the water, so they’re not even worried about turning the water on at their locations or getting the septic system ready to go, because they’re providing that, and they’re including it in the price.

They’re raising their rate to include it or adding it on, as a service where they’re getting a markup. And that’s a real simple way to be open without having to even change how you do business. [00:28:00] 

Mike Harrison: Yeah, I think, as we talk about, necessity is the mother of all invention, so I think people will continue to come up with unique and creative ideas and some innovation along, along the way.

But I do have another topic along that same vein. I was talking to a park manager the other day. And we were on a revenue call and I was listening and then we were going through, they’ve got a major special event coming up and, we were not as effective in our revenue management as we could have been.

And so I started talking and then we spent about 45 minutes on the call and we were going through revenue management philosophy and, red, yellow, green, hot dates and, how you balance, when you look at your reservation pace and all sorts of things and we’re using Campspot Analytics, to pull different reports to help us, With our revenue pace report, et cetera, et cetera.

I’ve continued to say I believe that the next big innovation in the outdoor hospitality needs to be revenue management and so I’m curious, what everybody thinks because I think you all have an opinion, it [00:29:00] touches everybody on this call in one way or the other, whether it’s, campground views and how you’re generating, the views and, productivity from your product or Jeff as a consultant and Casey, you guys.

You know how I feel about it. So what’s everybody’s thoughts on revenue management? 

I 

Sandy Ellingson: I think it’s absolutely something we need to be focusing on, but I feel about revenue management today like I did when I was going and teaching Facebook 101 after Facebook had been out for 10 years.

We, hospitality, the hotel side has been doing it for years. We’ve been talking about it and trying to teach it inside the campground industry for at least five. And it blows me away that you still are, we’re still struggling with this as a new topic. Because it’s not a new topic, it’s just people aren’t ready to listen yet.

Jeff Hoffman: I think it’s a combination of education and software. Go ahead.

Christine Taylor: I was going to say, I have a random comment on this. I think it’s not even just [00:30:00] that. I think as with any hurdle, when you introduce something new to a specific industry, There’s pushback. This is case in point. Did you see the Wendy’s dynamic pricing that they were going to put out there?

That Wendy’s is switching to digital boards. And originally it was because they were going to essentially do peak pricing, during the lunch hour, it would cost more for a Wendy’s sandwich. And because of PR, they backpedaled and they were like no, it’s just going to enable us to discount it when it’s slower, which is essentially the same thing, but, peak pricings existed in hotels, airlines, the Amtrak, there’s been demand pricing all the time, but because that’s not an industry that had it before, there was a massive PR pushback.

And I find that people in their minds still think of campgrounds as different than hotels. So part of it is okay, they’re used to paying a surcharge for a holiday weekend, but not a non holiday weekend that just happens to be busy. [00:31:00] It’s like trying to get the consumer on board with the change as well, is I think why part of that’s been a problem.

We always upcharge for our weekends where we paid for particularly expensive bands or when we had a hot air balloon festival or something. But, our customers got used to that. But there were a lot of people who would be like, What do you mean that you have a surcharge pricing on June 18th?

Like, why is this weekend more expensive? Because, again, not something they’re used to. So I think that the owners of campgrounds are responsive to it, but I think that trying to push the consumer towards accepting it has been part of the hang up on why it hasn’t been happening. 

Casey Cochran: There, watch this. There.

Yeah, that’s my take on this. I have no take on this. Now, we’ll throw out some fun information for you. I ran this the other day I want to say less than 25 percent of the parks that, that we have on the system are using dynamic rates. It’s [00:32:00] definitely under 30 percent and so with every, with every demo or every, thing that we talk with 2500 plus parks, we say, hey, this is a very simple, easy tool for you to use.

to be able to increase or lower your price based on demand at the site type level. If anything, just on specific weekends or specific time frames where essentially you want to use these dynamic rates to help gauge what your pricing is going to be the next year so you can price it with confidence.

It’s not about just price gouging someone because you can. It’s about understanding what are people willing to pay during that time frame. And again, the thing with, the thing that’s unique with campgrounds is that even that can change because A beautiful 4th of July weekend versus a rainy 4th of July weekend, your pricing probably has to change.

So there could be some automation there in general, some general theory of pricing. But again, weather does make an impact, right? Things going on in the area make it make an impact. So there’s other layers that I think is always going to require some sort of [00:33:00] level of manual paying attention. The parks that are doing it they’re doing really well, right?

For the most part, they’re doing it with an advantage. They’re taking advantage of because every single park uses dynamic pricing. Every single one in some country. They have their weekend rates, they have their holiday rates, that is dynamic pricing, right? They recognize it’s busier on the weekends than it is during the weekday, so I price it that way.

I recognize my holidays are more busy, so I price it that way. So they’re, everyone’s open to it. I think it’s getting started. I think it’s just that, that all what I always, I just, I beg and plead with parks to say, let our team set you up with one simple rule. Just on the fourth, whatever the busiest weekend you have is, let’s increase it once you get to 70 percent occupancy and you’re more than three months in advance of that date, let’s just raise it 5.

No one’s going to say a thing, no one’s going to know a thing, but just so you can see what that extra two or three or 400 looks like from just literally clicking that button, what does that do for [00:34:00] your, just to open up this, it’s, I don’t want to say it’s a game in a negative way, but it’s a game, right?

It truly is a game. In terms of understanding. And so to me, it always comes down to what’s the end goal. The end goal is to make as much money as you possibly can, of course, but without offending your customers with now, without hurting conversion. But at the end of the day, you really want to have confidence in where your pricing is going to be the next year, right?

Like where is that threshold? Because then you’re taking advantage of an entire year’s worth of that price point or a pricing. Range, as opposed to just assuming that, it’s going to stay the same indefinitely for that year. I don’t know if that helps at all, Mike, or not. I know there’s some more technology as well.

Sandy Ellingson: No. Casey. I disagree with you. 

Casey Cochran: All right, bring the noise, tell me why. 

Sandy Ellingson: No, only on one point and I could absolutely be wrong because I could have been educated wrong, but when I’m talking about dynamic pricing I break things down into two categories, rate yielding and dynamic pricing, and they’re two very different things.[00:35:00] 

I think parks do rate yielding. They go through and they yield their rates up on holidays, and that, but dynamic to me means that you’ve invested in technology or some tool that you can use that’s going to automatically regulate those rates. And so it’s not you. So what I love about it is that you really need to yield your rates at the beginning of the year.

These are my important events. And then maybe you tweak it if you find out about a big concert that’s coming to town or something. But then you set your dynamic rules and it just does it for you. It’s like easy money and you don’t set it so that it goes up 40%. You just small incremental amounts.

And it really does help that campground make more money. And when I hear campers that are complaining about it, then I look and say, okay, that 30 amp service over there? The next time you come, would you like it to be 50 amp service? Yeah. Okay. The parks need to make additional [00:36:00] money to be able to keep their infrastructures up and to do these things.

And we, a lot of these are older parks that are so resistant to it, but they’re the ones who need it the most. And so I try to say both sides, but I, but just that you said it was dynamic pricing, not rate yielding. 

Casey Cochran: I agree with you. Like I said, I think a lot of parks are just, they get scared of the word dynamic pricing because they view that as, Price gouging or whatever the case is, and it’s, and I try to just relate it back to something that’s very, yes, common, which is, it is it’s yield management to some extent it’s price yielding, but in the same parts, it’s supply and demand, right?

There’s bigger, there’s more demand on weekends, there’s more demand during holidays. That’s why your rates reflect that. This is just doing that again, based on that occupancy, but just doing it in real time. Oh, 

Mike Harrison: my, my general feeling on this is. I think, what we explain is the same thing, right? If you go to the gas station today and it’s 3.

99 a gallon, Monday it might be 4. 09, right? And nobody bats an eye. You might complain a little bit, it is what it is, right? It’s supply and demand, right? What, John Smith played versus [00:37:00] Sally Jones on the airplane, for a different seat is going to be a different price, right? Nobody thinks differently.

Same thing in the hotel, different rooms, different price, different time of year, but it is education. And so I think, the way we educate too is, I’d say if you only make 1 more in your ADR, right? If you have 40, 000 occupied sites a year, that’s 40, 000 of 100 percent flowable revenue to your bottom line.

It pays for a housekeeper and a half, right? One dollar, right? Anybody raise the rates by a buck, but it’s more than just the dynamic pricing. Which I agree with Sandy. In revenue management terms, that’s called yield. Dynamic pricing means it flexes and shrinks and grows based on, what’s happening live.

It’s static dynamic pricing FURL. But I, I believe firmly, that, While it’s good to have those tools in place and I apologize if you see a cattail, there it is going by where we need to go is, the first PMS to have a dynamic revenue management system, is going to be the winner, so to speak.

I remember when I was with [00:38:00] Holiday Inn, and I don’t even want to date myself. Back in 1999, and they rolled out their first version of their revenue management system. And it was a little better than the dynamic pricing, all the cases describing today, that was 20 something years ago in the hotel business.

And then Starwood, they rolled out their next version in 2005. At the time they were Starwood, not Marriott. And then Marriott and Hilton, they came out and they’re, they’re full, AI based systems now that make recommendations. They’ll even make changes for you. Minimum length of stay.

They’ll look at patterns versus same time last year. What your pickup is. And, it’s very manual right now. Only if someone looks at it or has a chance to look at it. But these systems are, they are revenue generating, money making systems. If your campground makes two million dollars a year and you can generate an extra ten percent, that’s two hundred thousand dollars, right?

Through some, techniques and some, strict attention to, the procedures and the, and what’s happening in your business. And it isn’t just on special events, right? It’s what’s a minimum length stay to, [00:39:00] minimum length stay for, what’s your peak days, what’s your busiest time of year, what’s your busiest days of the year.

Et cetera, et cetera. I feel like Scott needs to do a research project on this so it becomes industry forefront so that more and more people understand how important it is and the money that we’re not making, I don’t wanna say money. We’re losing, I wanna say money that we’re not making by not having more of a forefront, and coming up to modern times with everybody else in the revenue management world, just the tools and systems we have.

What camps Spott has is great. In terms of what it offers to the outdoor hospital industry currently, but that is, with all respect very junior in what it could be. So competitively, it’s better than most everything else out there we have in the outdoor hospital industry, but where we need to be, we’ve got to be so much further.

So what do you think about that, Scott? Is that your next, go ahead, Casey, if you want to defend yourself. It wasn’t an attack. 

Casey Cochran: No, I, yeah I’ll, go ahead, Scott. 

Scott Bahr: I was just gonna say, [00:40:00] absolutely, we’re on it. We’ll start tomorrow. 

So yeah. My, this isn’t a rebuttal at all. I 100 percent agree.

Casey Cochran: I think we’re the big difference with the hotel and campground space is a lot of this comes down to data privacy and willingness to share that. What the difference I think you have in the hotel space is you have three main conglomerates. That were willing to share all of their pricing to a general a general theme and then you were able to base things off of occupancy and pricing and and all the data from 

Mike Harrison: Eliminate the data privacy, right?

Even if you can’t overcome that and you don’t get competitor’s data. Internally, because we have all the information in our system already about day of week, time of year, and if you have some manual inputs about loading, what you can load in special events so that the system can know what are the busy, so that it looks for trends, so that it looks for peaks and valleys, so that it understands what’s going on in an AI based [00:41:00] system.

I’ve told Brian that’s going to be his next, his next tool is revenue management, so that park owners, if they don’t have time to do it, if they don’t understand it, someone’s telling you, Hey, what do you think about XYZ? Go ahead, Sandy. 

Sandy Ellingson: You guys, I’m sitting here smiling like a Cheshire cat because I can finally retire.

You’re singing my song for me. I remember coming on and saying some of this stuff because I was learning it brand new. It wasn’t that I was so smart. It’s just that I was hearing from campgrounds all their problems and learning these new things. So I would come on the show and want to talk about it. And I felt like I was the space alien.

And now I’m sitting here listening and it’s just sounds wonderful to my ears. But one of the things I did want to say was I think with the property management softwares that we have out there now and what they’re doing with dynamic pricing, they are already still so far ahead of where our users are that they could give us today what the hotel industry has, but nobody would understand it or [00:42:00] be able to use it.

Because there’s no education. So one of the things I hope to do is working with Scott and some other really smart people is create some educational pieces that actually teach the campgrounds. Here’s your report from whatever system they get it from. And here’s the things that are important to you and why you should look at it.

And what’s interesting is depending on the kind of park you are, you may be focusing on different KPIs and different data that’s on those reports. But the other thing to circle back around, which is so funny is what I was teasing you about before we came online saying, I wanted to talk to you about Mike really has been the subject of this whole conversation in many ways because I’ve just been in intensive conversations with campgrounds and association leaders and manufacturers this week, and one of the things that came up that was so obvious was that we’ve had a lot of new people enter this space since, in the last [00:43:00] five years, and a lot of them are people that have come from commercial development, or they’ve come from the hospitality industry with hotels, And they have an expectation of certain things that they want, and so they are driving this, and in their parks that are doing very well, they are using it.

And so they’re saying, why can’t I just Google and get this answer? Because they’re used to being able to find that, and we just don’t have it. In the outdoor hospitality industry, but the converse of that, which was very apparent this week, was that there are people, they really do not want to make the change.

They like things the way they are, and they want what their norm is. They want that to stay relevant. 

Mike Harrison: How is Blockbuster doing? 

Sandy Ellingson: Yeah, exactly. So I actually had somebody talk, they were talking about me, and they said, She’s a disruptor. And what’s funny is [00:44:00] I’ve come from the technology industry. So that’s a compliment in the technology industry.

You want to be a disruptor, but she wasn’t saying it to be positive. She was saying it to be negative because I kept introducing ideas and things that I felt they should do. She didn’t want to do, she thinks I’m just way out there. And I’m like, I want you to survive. Five years from now, I want us to be sitting at this table and you’re still around, and you can’t just complain nobody comes to me anymore. Nobody asks for any information because they can find everything they want on Google. Then, okay, find out how you can do it better than Google. 

Jeff Hoffman: Can I speak to this subject a little bit? 

Sandy Ellingson: Only if you agree with me. 

Jeff Hoffman: Oh, I you know where I stand.

What I was going to bring up is Mark, I don’t know if you attended it, but I taught a class at The Ohio Conference in Revenue Management and Dynamic Pricing. What the difference is and what slow steps you can take to get to [00:45:00] that revenue management. Right now I had people raise their hands about how many people still just set one rate for the whole year.

And you would be surprised how many people do that. Doesn’t matter if it’s a weekday weekend, it’s 59. So my starting goal with these people is just to get them to put a weekend rate in instead of just a week, so they have a weekday and a weekend rate. And then my next thing is to move them forward to look at events and occupancy in July.

Why are you charging 59 when you can get 89? So I did that course and I’ve done it in Michigan too. The other thing that I want to go back a subject a little bit, As right now, the deal with Hilton kind of scares the hell out of me because if they find out that this is a [00:46:00] lucrative industry, Marriott and Hilton both have really deep pockets and great operating systems and they know revenue management and dynamic pricing backwards and forwards.

Mike, you came over from the hospitality business. How long did it take you to become an expert in the campground business? 

Mike Harrison: I wouldn’t call myself an expert today. How easily was I able to pick it up in a week? It’s similar to the hotel business, but it’s, we’re just so far behind technologically and analytically, and we’re just not as sophisticated.

I don’t think Marriott or Hilton will buy up the campgrounds, investors will buy up the campgrounds and, be distributed. Marriott and Hilton are franchise companies. 

Jeff Hoffman: Do you remember, you worked for Holiday Inn. Do you remember Holiday Inn Travel Parks? 

Mike Harrison: Of course. 

Jeff Hoffman: Okay. They died off. 

Mike Harrison: They did. 

Jeff Hoffman: That doesn’t say that they can’t come [00:47:00] back. 

Mike Harrison: For sure. 

Jeff Hoffman: And Marriott could start franchising, owning some properties, franchising others. 

Mark Koep: Let me tell you Let me jump, Sandy, let me jump in on this one. So it’s a very important conversation because I’m hearing Mike saying, hey, we all need to be doing this.

That’s what I’m hearing, Mike. I don’t think that’s what You’re saying directly, but when I’ve been at these trade shows and I’m meeting with the owners, I’ll share two stories that kind of are analogous to what Casey just shared about the only 25 percent of the properties are actually using dynamic pricing.

You’re familiar with our technology, the virtual tours, I was presenting it to an owner and the owner looks me square in the eye, kid you not, looks me square in the eye and says, my customers will never use this technology. They don’t know how to use the internet. My jaw hit the ground. I was like, holy smokes.

The point being is that there are a large volume of folks that own RV parks and campgrounds, and it’s what they know how to do. They know how to run a business. They know how to, they know how to do the grassroots stuff. Keep me out of the office though and on the [00:48:00] technology. That’s not my thing, to Sandy’s point about the training.

So I believe that this is a longer switch over where If it is Hilton’s, so be it. Hilton’s brand comes in and buys 500 properties nationwide and builds up a chain. I, the analogy I’ll make is the motels that used to be in major cities that were like the roadside motels, those are all but gone, replaced with Holiday Inns and Hilton’s on the outskirts of those towns.

The difference here is it’s much more difficult to build a campground than it is to build a hotel. But the same idea eventually properties will be acquired, especially if they’re in desirable areas by investors who will invest the money into making those operations good. So I think speaking to that point, that dynamic pricing is really one of the greatest smart business opportunities in our space for a smart operator to instead of telling people how to do it, Just go buy their property, introduce this financing, this financial model into that property and make a boatload of money on the increase in the net operating income and the value of the business.

The reality is that’s a smart investor. So we can [00:49:00] scream all day that some of these owners aren’t going to get it. Guess what? They’re not going to get it. Just being real. There’s owners out there who listen to us talk all day long. The reality is that the money is coming into the industry. This Hilton thing suggests that is the case.

Over the next 10 years, I don’t think we’re going to see a drop off in acquisitions of properties. We’re going to see a change in who’s acquiring those properties. So it’s not just going to be money. It’s going to be smart money. People who know what they’re doing, who are partnered with people who know what they’re doing, who are going to go in and strategically buy properties.

Flip them over, basically make them spacious skies is a great example of what they’re doing, right? Taking these properties that are older, putting in good systems on them and then increasing the value of that business. I, I don’t know if that, I’m not being negative on this. I completely agree with you that’s where the industry needs to go.

But the reality is that we’re not going to get a lot of the existing owners to make that shift because it’s too darn hard. And it’s just going to inevitably start switching over. Yeah. Some of them. Yeah. 

Mike Harrison: I think, Sandy had mentioned being a disruptor and I’ve shared [00:50:00] this a couple times but I, you guys can see my screen.

I’m not familiar with this platform. You see the little graph here? No? All right. There’s a thing called the Law of Diffusion of Innovation. Simon Sinek, if you’re familiar with that, teaches that. And there’s a bell curve about and it’s really about disruption. And the early innovators are the first two and a half percent, that, that will take something like a cell phone, right?

The early adopters, they’re thirteen and a half percent and once those two, come in, then there’s this tipping point, and then the early majority, and then the late majority. And the laggards are the last sixteen percent. They’re the ones that don’t have, that, that wanted a rotary phone until they could, they didn’t make them anymore, right?

And so those laggards are the people that, yeah they’ll never learn that they’re gonna get left behind and if they don’t want to learn, that’s up to them. But I think, I think it’s two components here. I think it’s a combination of education and I think it’s a combination of technology.

The technology we have to wait for and I think, I’ll continue to challenge all the PMSs, not just Casey, but I’ll [00:51:00] continue to challenge all of the PMSs to develop their technology systems to, to evolve us. But then education we can do today. I think, Casey, you, me, and Jeff. I think maybe we do something with Campspot and, the session I did with my manager or what Jeff did with his group, we could take something like Campspot Analytics and we do an hour, webinar on, on, how do you analyze data, what decisions do you want to make and provide something, maybe we do a weekly or bi weekly or monthly.

I’m very passionate about this topic because campgrounds are not making the money they can. So what we can’t necessarily control today is technology. What we can control today is Sandy’s favorite word, which is education. And I think we’ve got to push it. So I’m willing to put the time in. Who’s with me?

Sandy Ellingson: I want to say that I want the education done, and I want each of you as subject matter experts, but I want that training on a platform that’s accessible to everybody, and to no matter what software they’re using. for joining. Because, we’ve got to get this out to the masses. [00:52:00] I love them all. I’m not, I try not to be preferential. And I also have to say we can’t favor one. Don’t just say Campspot. 

Mike Harrison: Feel free to organize that. I can do it. And I’m not saying that what we’re going to do with Campspot, it’s going to be, it’s not PMS agnostic. The principles are the same. We would, we could use the platform just as an example of here are reports that we would pull.

Sandy Ellingson: Oh, absolutely. I thought you were going to give Casey the exclusive and all. 

Mike Harrison: No, it could be available to anybody. It’s revenue management, but you’re using just Campspot as the platform that you’re pulling the reports from. We could figure all that out at another time. 

Sandy Ellingson: I tell Casey all the time, he’s one of the most brilliant speakers on that topic. I hear at all the conferences and I just want his brain and his education, for everybody. 

Jeff Hoffman: Hey Mike. You know where I stand on that and I would love to be on something. Right now, I only get to teach revenue management one campground at a time and that’s way too slow. 

Mike Harrison: All right, Casey, [00:53:00] this is on you. We’re going to organize this together and we’re going to get this done. All right, we’re in I hope we did I hope we did Brian justice in not having him here. I hope he has a great time. I hope he’ll wear sunscreen on his bald little head. So when he comes back he’s protected. Anybody have any last parting words?

Casey Cochran: I thought we were going to get through the show without saying AI, and then you had to throw it in that fifth. That was Jeffs fault. 

Fault. 

Mike Harrison: I was like, you missed, that was the first 30 seconds you missed. It was like the first 15 seconds of the of the session. Yeah. There you go.

You’re on mute. Mark. 

Jeff Hoffman: AI is the newest subject in the, one of the greatest things that’s gonna happen to almost all industries, but Brian has gone down a very deep rabbit hole. ’cause it’s within the first three seconds of any conversation that he has. 

Mike Harrison: Yep. All right. We got one [00:54:00] minute. What do you got, mark?

I’m still on mute. 

Mark Koep: I’m muted again. Yeah, we’re good. I’ll see you all at the WACO and the NCA show coming up here. 

Mike Harrison: Any other closing words? 

Scott Bahr: I just like to throw one thing out there as because it builds a little bit on this conversation and what something I’m involved in here in Maine, which is rural Outdoor recreation and economic development.

And one of the things that has been a big topic of conversation are accommodations in some of these areas. The hospitality part of that, of the outdoor hospitality. It’s missing in many of these areas and it’s a real barrier to their embracing, of the outdoor recreation economy. And I’m just saying that because as people who are involved in this sector, this is something that to me is a passion.

I just submitted a big proposal on some work here in Maine that [00:55:00] hopefully will happen. But I’d like to 

For joining us for this e . 

Mike Harrison: Whoops. 

Scott Bahr: That’s okay. I was rambling that I know it was passed. 

Mike Harrison: I was premature. I was playing, I was premature. I’m sorry. But way to drop the mic. 30 seconds to go with the biggest topic.

Scott Bahr: It’s like I’m at the, I’m doing my acceptance speech and the band starts to play . 

Mike Harrison: That’s my fault. I am, that’s my fault. But good topic. We can shove that for next week. But thank you everybody for joining us for another great session of Modern Campground Fireside Chats. Join us next Wednesday, March 15th, where there will be guests that I don’t know who they are.

Everybody have a great week, get outdoors and enjoy life. Thank you everyone. 

for joining us for this episode of MC Fireside Chats with your host, Brian Searl. Have a suggestion for a show idea? Want your campground or company in a future episode? Email us at hello at moderncampground. com. Get your daily dose of news from moderncampground. com. And be sure to [00:56:00] join us next week for more insights into the fascinating world of outdoor hospitality.