MC Fireside Chats – March 27th, 2024

This is MC Fireside Chats, a weekly show featuring conversations with thought leaders, entrepreneurs, and outdoor hospitality experts who share their insights to help your business succeed. Hosted by Brian Searl, the founder and CEO of Insider Perks, empowered by insights from Modern Campground, the most innovative news source in the industry.

Brian Searl: Welcome everybody to another episode of MC Fireside Chats. My [00:01:00] name is Brian Searl with Insider Perks. Super excited to be here with you for our first episode. This is our fourth week episode. We’re focusing on the RV industry as we always do in the fourth week. Excited to welcome back a couple of our recurring guests, Shane Devonish, Phil and Gracia.

We had, did we have three people here? Or did I just imagine that before I like went to the intro and came back and then somebody was gone? We have three special guests here. John Harris I’m gonna let you introduce yourself in a second. Oh, there’s Rich. Rich came back. Okay. The intro offended you, Rich, and then you were like, No, I can’t be in the show.

But Rich is back. He’s gonna let everybody introduce themselves in a second, and then we have Debbie too. So let’s I don’t know, let’s start with Debbie. Wanna tell us a little bit about yourself, Debbie? 

Just briefly? 

Debbie Brunoforte: Sure, yeah, absolutely. Pleasure to be here. Thank you for allowing me the opportunity.

I’m in the retail business, Retail RV Dealerships. We have 38 locations throughout the country. We’re the largest privately held, family owned, and operated RV dealership group in the country. And I just absolutely love the RV industry, and it’s a pleasure to be here. 

Brian Searl: [00:02:00] Does anybody hear that noise, or is that just me hearing that noise?

Debbie Brunoforte: Yeah, I think we all hear it. Very strange. I can hear it, yeah. 

Brian Searl: Oh, maybe that’s, okay, anyway. Alright anyway, I was, reports of echoes and things like that before, so super excited to have you here, Debbie, but if anybody hears any echoes or anything, just raise your hand, we won’t be able to see you in the audience, but, you’ll have comfort knowing the fact that you called it out and heard it and we tried to get it to you, so we decided, let’s go with John next. Okay. 

John Harris: Hey, I’m John Harris. I’m the CEO and co founder of Arbinger Motors. We are an automotive OEM focused on the EV space. So we’re building electric platforms like the one behind me, which among other things are used to build Class A RVs. The company initially started with a focus on primarily commercial vehicles, And as we look more and more at the RV space and saw what’s exciting on the computer and also a lot of information around the class setting, [00:03:00] it’s become an RV part of our room.

Brian Searl: Awesome, excited to learn more about that. John, if you want to, I don’t know if your mic is on your computer, we had a hard time hearing you when you were talking, but we got most of it. But when we dive into it later, I’d love to, if you can, just lean a little bit closer to your mic. Rich, you want to go?

Rich Schnippel: Yeah, I’m Rich Schnipple with Encore RV. We started this company in June of 2021. We build adventure trailers unique about us is we’re 100 percent wood free product, aluminum frame. We hit in the upper tiers of what we do focus on quality. I brought in today, our new COO, Mike Depositar.

And he’s joining us today. He’s been with us for about 45 days, I think. It’s been something we’ve needed, but we were looking for somebody to lead the company into our next stages. 

Brian Searl: Oh, I need one of those too. I got somebody on my mind who I want to be, though. It’s a couple years down the road, but we’ll see.

I assume you said Mike is your name. Mike, you agree with everything your CEO said or you want to disagree with him in the first 30 seconds? No. 

Mike Depositar: I’ve been [00:04:00] here 45 days. 

Brian Searl: Welcome, sir. I appreciate it. I’d love to, I’m excited to talk to both of you a little bit here. And then obviously, Phil, you want to give yourself a brief introduction and then we’ll do Shane too?

Phil Ingrassia: Sure. Hi, I’m Phil Ingrassia. I’m president of the RV Dealers Association. We represent U. S. travel, trailer, and motorhome dealers across the country. And Debbie Brunoforte is a former chair and still highly involved in in the management and the guidance that the staff gets at RVDA. Glad to see Debbie on the call.

Brian Searl: Thank you, Phil. Shane? 

Shane Devenish: Yeah, thanks, Brian. Good to be back after missing a couple episodes. I’m Shane. I am with the Canadian RV Association up here in Canada, and we are the I guess the Northern Tundra edition of the RV Industry Association up here. It’s good to be here. 

Brian Searl: Alright as I usually start off these shows right before we get into our special guests, Phil and Shane, is there anything that’s come across your desk since either you’ve been on the show last, I know it’s been a little bit [00:05:00] Shane or in the RV industry that you think we should be paying attention to or know about?

Phil Ingrassia: I think it’s been an interesting first couple of months as the industry is stair stepping back up a little bit on production and sales. The most recent RVIA shipment numbers showed for the first two months of the year, the industry’s up about 15 percent as far as shipments go.

Dealers, as we’ve talked about a little bit on the show prior, really were throwing down inventory a little bit in 2023. And they did a good job of cleaning that up. And now they’re restocking the shelves. And I’m sure Debbie might have some thoughts on that as we move through the program.

I think we’ve got some good signs on the horizon. We’ve got the, in the U. S. here, the Fed is signaling some interest rate cuts and just from talking to dealers those kind of signals are good for the consumer body. Give them a little bit more confidence moving forward as we get into the spring selling season.[00:06:00] 

Brian Searl: Shane, you feel the same way in Canada? 

Shane Devenish: Yeah, much, much the same as what Phil said. Last year was a horrendous year for us up here. We got a lot of 22 product after August, September. So our matured problem last year was really difficult for everybody to get through up here. And people wanted to sell old stuff first.

As they should, instead of bringing in new products or shipments we’re down considerable, but very optimistic coming out of the gate here, some of the shows were really good. And we’re just looking to put last year behind 

Brian Searl: us. How did your show go? Just for, I don’t think we’ve asked, we haven’t had you on since, have we?

Shane Devenish: No so CRVA owns the largest RV show in Canada. It’s called the Toronto Spring Camping RV Show. It ran February 29th to March 3rd. Our attendance was up 10%. And it was a record crowd ever in the history which was really good to see. It was about 23 million, I think. 

Brian Searl: So you were going to say [00:07:00] 23 million people. I was like, wow, that is a record crowd. Congratulations. 

Shane Devenish: In, in maybe a 50 mile radius, there might’ve been that many Brian, but in the venue, not so much. But no, I think things went I think things went really really well, good to hear. 

Brian Searl: All right who wants to volunteer to go first? John, Rich, and Mike? Or Debbie, who would like to be our first guest to tell you about their company.

Okay, I’m going to pick then, and we’ll go with John since he’s got some cool stuff behind him. So John, tell us you’re from Harbinger Motors. Tell us a little bit about, and just lean forward a little bit if you can, there’s just some machinery behind you. I don’t know if your computer is on your mic, or if it’s on your 

John Harris: Oh no, I’ll get the mic here.

Brian Searl: Okay, cool, perfect. So tell us, what’s Harbinger Motors? Harbinger Motors. 

John Harris: Harbinger Motors is the most vertically integrated electric truck company in the world. We build, like I said, platforms. Bob is the one behind me. We also build everything in those platforms. So here at Harbinger, we build chassis, we build battery packs, [00:08:00] we build electric motors we build components like heat pumps, and we do all of that in pursuit of offering electrification at the most competitive possible price.

So how did 

Brian Searl: Harbinger Motors get started? What were you trying to solve when you came into the industry? 

John Harris: Myself and my co founders have spent a fair bit of time in the electrification space. And what we’ve seen is that there’s two major issues. One is that people really focus on the parts of the automotive market that maybe aren’t the best suited for electrification.

You only look at vehicles in a medium duty space. To us, that’s the part of the market where electrification just fits naturally. But when you look at the automotive industry as a whole, the vast majority of investment in electrification and R& D spending across the board is going into either passenger cars or Class 8 long haul trucks.

And so we saw this huge kind of wasteland in the middle where no one was [00:09:00] really working on this problem. And I said, that’s something that’s worth fixing. We also come from a bunch of companies that I guess in our opinion, we tried to do way too many different things. And so we wanted to build a company with much more of a laser focus on very specific products.

So when you look at products like this, at strip chassis today, they always come from people who would rather be doing something else. If you get a strip chassis in the US for a Class A motorhome, Ford, which would much rather sell you an F 150 Raptor, or Freightliner, would much rather sell you a Cascadia.

Long haul truck. So by building a company that actually cares about this product segment, we believe we offer much higher quality products. 

Brian Searl: All right, I want to talk to you about your electric chassis in a second, but I will tell you like Shane and Phil, we need to take notes about this for future shows, because if you put some kind of a cool background behind you with a lot of noise, I find myself like leaning in to hear and pay more attention closer to what he’s [00:10:00] saying, which for sure is like some kind of marketing wizardry trick.

That we should have thought of first, but 

John Harris: Yeah, it is, unfortunately, this is the real factory, not a virtual background, so that 

Brian Searl: Yo, we can hear it that’s what I’m saying, that’s what makes it really cool. 

Shane Devenish: That’s what you should have, Brian, something like that. 

Brian Searl: I’m not smart enough to start factories and all that kind of stuff, I just sit in front of a computer and type all day, so But tell us about your electric chassis, I had that in my notes here, the first one you delivered to Thor Industries?

John Harris: That’s right. We made our first delivery to Thor a few weeks ago. They’re now working on upfitting that into a Class A motorhome and getting that into testing. When you look at a Class A motorhome, it starts out as something like this. This is called a strip chassis. So this is really the vehicle part of an RV.

What we’ve got here is two axles, a traditional ladder frame, and Electric motor in the back and then each side of the frame all contained are the battery [00:11:00] packs. So this type of vehicle is used to build primarily three products electric delivery or delivery vans think UPS trucks, FedEx trucks, BIMBO, CTAS, et cetera school buses and RVs.

So they’re all built on essentially a common foundation, slight tweaks between models. But looking at, just what you can see here behind me there’s three chassis in a row there. This front one has a wheelbase of 178 inches. So this is primarily a model that’s used for parcel delivery trucks.

The next one there has a 115 inch wheelbase. That one’s primarily used for utility trucks. And then the third one, as well as, they’re all over the place here, there’s a couple more over there. Those ones all have 208 inch wheelbases. Those are all primarily used for RVs and for really low weight, high bulk delivery applications like bakers.

Brian Searl: And from a, just coming from a place of ignorance, I’m more on the [00:12:00] campground, RV park side, right? Is electric a big focus of your business? Is it 50 50? Is it? 

John Harris: All, all we build here are electric chassis. 

Brian Searl: Okay, good. That helps me go with my next question, so I wanted to ask that. As you look at electric chassis specifically for the RV industry.

Let’s just pick that out because that’s our target audience here right today. How do you see that evolving? Is it going as quickly as you had hoped? Is it slow uptake? 

John Harris: I think we’re right at the beginning of the curve, so it’s really going to be hard to say right now how fast that uptake is going to go.

I think it’s going to go fairly quickly for a couple different reasons. One is that these are vehicles that are a lot more comfortable to drive. When you drive a Class A RV, you don’t buy that vehicle for the driving experience, right? That’s the piece that you’re willing to accept for all of the side benefits of owning a Class A RV.

As we move to an electric product, there’s an opportunity to build a product that drives more [00:13:00] like a pickup truck. That’s more comfortable, especially for newer owners who don’t have experience driving big vehicles like that. I think it’s going to be a more accessible product. It’s also, I think when we talk about specifically transitions to electrification, I think the industry is more ready than people think.

There’s always, when we talk about electrification, much gnashing of teeth about charging infrastructure, where are we going to park these vehicles, where are we going to charge them? If you’re going to a campground in a class A RV, you’re probably going to one that has hookups. And when we looked at a NEMA 1450 Now that’s the amount of power you need for a 12 kilowatt charger, and it’s right there in your campsite already.

So our expectation is that these are vehicles that you’re gonna jump in, you’re gonna drive a couple hours out to the campground, you’re gonna plug in just like you always would, and that’s gonna handle your charging right there in the campsite. But because you’ve got this electric vehicle with an enormous battery pack along with it, you’re not going to have a generator.

You’re not going to have the noise and the aggravation of having another [00:14:00] system to power your activities at the campground. That’s all going to run as a sponge off of the electric system that’s built into the vehicle. 

Brian Searl: So I want to hear your thoughts in a minute, in a second, Shane Phil and Shane on the uptake, how dealers are, approaching these kinds of things, if they’re willing to take it on, if they’re not.

My last question right now for John is, as you look toward kind of the immediate future, and what I mean by the next few to five years, as you look at the technology that’s available for you right now, as from an electric standpoint, to put into a catheter, Where do you see this going? What’s the biggest leap forward you can see that maybe you’re struggling with right now because the tech isn’t widely available or isn’t cost effective yet?

John Harris: I think that there’s not like a leap that I see coming in that time frame. I think what we’ll see is 5 ish percent improvement in available battery energy density every year. That’s about what we’ve been seeing for the last couple years. So You know, the first chassis that we delivered before for us to discuss publicly, they’re expecting about a 250 mile range.

And that’s what they feel is [00:15:00] the starting point for a compelling product. But we expect that to get, better and better every year. So when I look out five years, I would expect that to be in the high 300s, low 400s in that timeframe. The other piece that, that I think is a big recent change.

This is around heat pumps. There’s a lot of discussion around heat pumps in residential applications. But we actually use a heat pump on the vehicle. So this, let’s see, this box is a heat pump. And this is something that we’ve really just gotten into a place where we feel the technology is is mature and stable.

But that’s a heat pump that we use to heat and cool the battery system, the drive unit, and the cabin. Sorry. And for the RV application, that’s particularly interesting, because that heat pump has 18 kilowatts of cooling capacity. That’s about 60, 000 BTUs. And that just ships as standard on all of the vehicles because we use it for the rest of the vehicle systems.

So when we look at the RV use [00:16:00] case, we’re expecting these are, these units, when they’re built as RVs, are not going to need any rooftop units. As part of the transition to electrification, we see interesting little opportunities to start to have performance and cost improvements on the outside of the vehicle as well.

Brian Searl: Phil and Shane, any thoughts?

Shane Devenish: Yeah, one question John. How do you how do you see the cost of your chassis versus a gas chassis? Is it comparable or do you see the overall end unit? Costing more or the same or less? 

John Harris: I think it’s going to be more for now. The way that I think of our positioning, you’ve got, gas chassis, primarily from Ford with the F 53.

You’ve got diesel chassis, primarily from Freightliner in the MT series. Those aren’t very common for RVs, but they are a strip chassis that you do occasionally find an RV that’s on. And then you’ve got the big diesel [00:17:00] pushers from Spartan and Freightliner. We’re going to land somewhere in the middle across premium over the Ford gas chassis.

Pretty comparable to the premium level of diesel chassis, but still obviously a lot lower than a pusher. These are going to be class 6 vehicles, so 24, 000 pound GVW. So we land in a little bit of an intermediate category that doesn’t quite exist right now, obviously. heavier, a lot more powerful than anything you’re getting with a gas chassis but we’re not yet building a product up into class 7 GBW or you’d find it there.

Phil Ingrassia: Yeah, the question I would have then is, as you look at some of those cost things to follow up with the machine, saying the total cost of ownership, have you done any type of analysis on that compared to the gas and diesel ownership costs? 

John Harris: Yeah, so when we look at total cost of ownership, I think the equation is really easy when we look at a commercial vehicle, because we know they’re accumulating a lot of miles.

And so [00:18:00] the savings that come with electrification stack up really fast. With RVs, my understanding is that a typical RV is going to be used, a typical Class A is going to be used about 15 days a year. So we’re not talking about racking up tons of miles. So our focus is really on getting that acquisition cost as low as possible because I don’t think that the TCO savings are really going to help you that much on an RV because there’s just not that much money spent on the fuel of an RV relative to the acquisition cost because it’s not a vehicle that most people are driving day in and day out.

Phil Ingrassia: I, I did see some of the Prototypes that Thor had at the open house last year and it’s very interesting and the way you guys are, storing batteries and things like that within the chassis certainly a lot of potential there. I think for the dealer side of the house, and Debbie can probably chime in here as well, the dealers are driven by what the manufacturers build.

So when, [00:19:00] There becomes a critical mass of demand and availability of electric chassis that’s what dealers will, that’s what dealers will be selling. The question that, that the dealers ask and is when is that future coming? And like you said, I think we are on the beginning of that curve to find out when that happens.

But, as long as it’s a great product, dealers will sell it. And there’s a consumer 

Rich Schnippel: demand for it. 

John Harris: I think the RV industry here is going to benefit from the commercial truck industry being out in front of them on that curve. And today, the demand for electric trucks in these weight classes, from delivery players in particular, is enormous.

It massively outstrips supply. And so that means that the RV industry gets to ride those coattails with a product like this. We don’t need to wait for the RV industry’s demand to come up to say, okay, let’s start making stuff in the right wheelbase. We’re making RV appropriate wheelbases today for some of our commercial customers.

And that means as that RV demand [00:20:00] comes up, we’re already in place with that production capacity. 

Brian Searl: All right, Debbie, do you have any thoughts on that? And then obviously just transition right into that. I’d love to hear about a little bit of the prices and just Your company, please. 

Debbie Brunoforte: Yeah, John, I just want to say that I love the technology.

I love what’s coming in the future. It’s so exciting. I drive a Tesla myself. I live in Phoenix, Arizona. We have self driving Waymos everywhere. I have a self driving car, and it’s not just the electric the electric engines that I’m excited about, but all the new technology. Look forward in the future.

Can you imagine how fun it will be driving in a motorhome where you don’t even have to drive? 

Brian Searl: Yep, I’ll buy one at that point. 

Debbie Brunoforte: Yeah, if you want to go You know, play a game with the kids or get a drink out of the refrigerator. So it’s, I know that’s separate than the electric vehicle, but I love the electric vehicle [00:21:00] too.

It’s good for the, it’s good for the earth. You’re going to have some early adopters not only because of the cost of the infrastructure, I would have questions such as how long does it take to charge it? What percentage of campgrounds are really set up for it? That type of thing. But I’m very excited for the technology and I’m glad that there’s people out there like you that are in front of it and driving this.

So thank you for that. 

Brian Searl: All right. Little Dearly Little Prices. Tell us about it. 

Debbie Brunoforte: Yes. We’re part of the Campers and Families. I mentioned 38 locations across the country. I go to several of them, but I’m usually here in Arizona, in Phoenix, Arizona. We have locations, , Prescott Valley, and Phoenix. And I would encourage, if you have any RV people that are out there that would like to come, or even any of you that would ever like to come to one of our dealerships, they’re very unique facilities.

We were on the cover of our theme business for the most spectacular showrooms, [00:22:00] and we believe in edutainment. So when you come to our facility, it’s. It’s not quite Disneyland, but our goal is to entertain you while you’re getting an education on an RV. The offices are all like Old West towns on the inside.

One office might be the gunsmith, another will be the Pony Express office, and so forth. And then, when you go into the showroom, we don’t have showrooms. We have campgrounds. There are nighttime scenes with rocks and waterfalls and fireplaces, the little fires are going, and live mostly in the RVs themselves that have the lights on the inside and so the windows show through.

It’s a lot of fun. And it’s just a thrill to be in this business. Most of our customers are young families or people that are thinking about retiring, but the young families and the kids love it. And it’s, I think when you’re in the business. And you’re working here day to day and it’s a job and it’s a career.

We forget about all the [00:23:00] joy and adventure and freedom that we provide to society. We forget about the fun that they’re going to go, that they’re going to experience when they go out in the forest and the kids are hunting for pine cones or whatever it is that they’re going to be doing. I believe in this industry.

I think that we do a lot of good for the environment and people. And, if you look At the cost of the environment on vacations, RVs are greener. It’s a greener way to vacation and it’s a more affordable way to vacation. 

Brian Searl: So talk us through, I’m very curious about the start of your, you said you had 38 dealerships now?

Debbie Brunoforte: Yes. 

Brian Searl: So talk us through the start of that because I feel like there’s a good story here to how you get from obviously one dealership to 38, but secondarily, how do you get to the design that you did and the experience that you did inside your dealerships? You clearly had some kind of a problem you wanted to solve and did it, right?

Debbie Brunoforte: What we wanted to do with the dealerships, and it’s only the Arizona dealerships that are done this way, but what we wanted to do was we wanted to entertain people. We thought, people are coming into RV. It’s supposed to be fun. [00:24:00] We didn’t want to look like a car dealership. We don’t want to feel like a car dealership.

We were saying, okay, what do you do to be opposite of that? And rather than be stark and sterile, we just wanted to have fun and provide a surprising environment and entertain people and, give them a little bit of joy while they’re here. They still need to get the education about the RV. We get that.

We’re very serious about that. However, we want people to enjoy their time when they’re with us here too. So I don’t, I, is it the right thing to do? I can’t say if it’s the right thing to do or not because it’s very expensive. And there’s other complications involved, but I do think that our customers appreciate it.

I know we appreciate it. We like being here. We have all kinds of different things. For example, we don’t have sales people. We have RV rangers, and they’re wearing the same uniform as the park service wears when you go out camping. And instead of saying U. S. Forest Service or Forest Ranger, it says RV Ranger, and as I mentioned, we don’t have showrooms, we [00:25:00] have campgrounds, we don’t have an, we don’t have an office, we have Main Street, we have our own little vernacular here.

We just try to make it fun for the consumer. Go ahead. 

Brian Searl: I was just going to say, I’m sure it works. Just me coming from a marketing background. We do marketing for hundreds of campgrounds and RV parks. Just, I would have never thought about that. If I go into a car dealer and I’m trying to buy my next car, for example, because I’m too poor to buy an RV right now.

But if I go in there and try to buy a car, then I never would have thought about looking at it as a sterile experience like you thought about, like you were describing, but now I will. And now I’m going to demand a campfire and that they put on a funny uniform before I like buy anything from them.

And that’ll be my reason. Like, why are you leaving? Not buying a car. So it’s interesting. Do the Rangers carry like tasers if you try to leave without buying an RV? 

Debbie Brunoforte: Tasers. I’ll bet they would like to sometimes, but no, they don’t. 

Brian Searl: So talk me through dealership one to 38. Cause that’s impressive. Very impressive. 

Debbie Brunoforte: Yes. And how that started [00:26:00] is. I didn’t start that. I’m not accountable for the 38. I just had the Arizona locations, and then I sold two campers in about two years ago to my very good friend, Jeff Hirsch. He’s the one that started campers in nationally, and it’s just I just love it.

When I decided that it was time to sell my business, it was the right time to sell the business. I didn’t want to leave the business. I love the business. So I was going to continue it, but I wanted to sell my company, take some chips off the table. It’s the right time to do that. And there’s opportunities, with publicly traded companies, venture capital companies, the publicly traded companies.

I couldn’t have done that. But this is so much better. The values, it’s different. If you’re, if, if I’m going to buy stock from Ford Motor Company, I’m buying it because I want a return on my investment. So that’s good. There’s nothing wrong with that. If you’re a publicly traded company, that always [00:27:00] has to be your North Star.

What am I going to do to get a return on my investment, right? When you’re a privately held company, your North Star, if you have good values like we do, your North Star is doing the right thing. We’re going to do whatever is the right thing, even if it, if we take a hit financially to do that. I love those kinds of family values and just a different thought process on being a privately held family owned and operated company.

As opposed to a, venture capital or publicly traded company. So that’s why I made the decision that I made. And it’s been, pardon me. It’s been very good. 

Brian Searl: I want to get to Richard, Mike, and obviously Phil, Shane, or anybody else. If you have questions for Debbie, please. Pipe in so I can stop talking and people will enjoy watching the show.

But for Debbie, my last question I guess is I feel like the answer is we both know that this works, but do you have any data that says the experience in the dealership leads to higher [00:28:00] sales? 

Debbie Brunoforte: Only market share, and we are the largest towable dealer in the state, 

Brian Searl: like I said, I’m a believer. You don’t have to convince me. I was just curious if there was data that other dealerships could get behind and say oh, this clearly works. Let’s do it. 

Debbie Brunoforte: I actually hope they don’t, so 

Brian Searl: outside of arizona, outside of Arizona would be fine, right? 

Debbie Brunoforte: That’s right, yeah. 

Brian Searl: Any questions for Debbie before we move on to Rich and Mike?

Shane Devenish: Just one, Debbie. I love the idea. I can just envision what your showroom looks like with all the campgrounds and everything. It must restrict the number of units that you can show or, like, how many units would you have in the area with all the campgrounds around it? 

Debbie Brunoforte: The indoor showroom, what most theatre scene would have is a showroom.

We call it a campground. Do we fit fewer in there than, probably a few? Because, we haven’t set up like a nighttime campground. And so they’re not just lined up in straight rows, you have your setup here and the awning and the [00:29:00] fireplace and everything. So we, it probably, in fact definitely, we fit a few fewer RVs indoors than what we otherwise would, but not that many.

We’re pretty creative in how we lay them out.

Brian Searl: All right, Rich and Mike, carry on with your setups. 

Rich Schnippel: I’ll tell you, I’ve been to Debbie’s location, it’s been some time. But it does stand out at me. I’ve been to a lot of dealerships across the country, and the ones that have that unique feel, they just, you just don’t forget them. And I think her customers probably do really appreciate that.

I think it probably puts those people at ease also, where they don’t feel like it’s going to be a high pressure thing, they feel like they’re talking with a friend. So I think that is great. And I’m sure a lot of people could appreciate that. Our company, again, we started In June of 21, things were rolling along really well for us despite the economic downturn.

We’ve been able to maintain a fairly strong backlog. We’ve been a good place to [00:30:00] work. We did have an incident the day before Thanksgiving where we had a fire at our facility. And it destroyed our weld shop and damaged a lot of our facility. So that was a major setback for us. The building’s not back together.

We’ve been forced to relocate. The little silver lining was we went from a lot of 15, 000 square foot facility that we thought we could get through for the first two to three years to a much larger 60, 000 square foot facility. That’s given us the room to grow, add another line think about our next steps in our product offering.

So that’s been nice. But we lost about two and a half months worth of production, so that was a bit of a challenge. We’ve got very strong backing with my partners, so we were able to get through that okay. But I really feel like it’s what pulled our company together. We made a commitment to all of our employees that they would remain employed during that stage.

I think they really appreciated it. We really, I just think it brought us together as a team and helped us [00:31:00] to better understand what we were doing and where we were headed. We have been very fortunate in our hiring. During this downturn, we find it as a great opportunity to hire great talent. That’s how we came across Mike.

He was I don’t want to speak for Mike, so I’m going to let him tell you, but and I’ll get to that here in a second, but it’s probably been what’s best about our company right now is. The ability to pick up very talented people, both on the production line inside of our office, continue to offer great products.

I think one of our biggest challenges has really been finding the right models to introduce and bring along. As I said, we’re in the adventure trailer market, so most of them are smaller, easy towables. But you’re always challenged a little bit because a lot of people don’t understand that market.

where you’re offering a trailer that may not have a bathroom. Of our 11 models that we offer, two of them have bathrooms, the other ones do not. Our best selling models are the units that don’t have bathrooms. We’ll start to evolve and continue [00:32:00] to offer trailers that will have bathrooms and that’s exciting.

But it’s an interesting thing because for us, we tell dealers the excitement behind our product is You can bring in a lot of first time buyers because you’re not required to get a specialty tow vehicle. You can pull most of what we sell with a Subaru or a Jeep. Only in our larger stuff are you required to have anything bigger, but nothing bigger than an F 150 or a half ton pickup truck.

And even some stronger midsize SUVs can pull some of our Larger products, but you’ve got that opportunity to bring in a lifelong customer because you’ll get first choice at them because a lot of these people that get into camping don’t want to go out and buy a dedicated tow vehicle or a larger tow vehicle so that they can get into this activity.

And there are an enormous amount of tent campers in this country. If you’re looking to get off the ground and into a trailer, and their first unit usually is a typical small teardrop trailer, a pop up, or a lightweight trailer, which a lot of [00:33:00] people offer, but what we’re finding, and you’re seeing the trend, is more towards that rugged off road style trailer that people want to own.

I don’t know, I always assimilate it to people who buy jeeps and throw a bunch of money into them and never take them off road. There are people that want to 

Brian Searl: That was me, to be clear. I did that, sorry. 

Rich Schnippel: Go ahead. Yeah, you know exactly what I’m talking about. We have that same thing in the trailer industry where people, the most off road they’re gonna go is a fire road. An access road for the fire. 

Brian Searl: To be clear, I wanted to, my girlfriend said no. So anyway, they continue. 

Rich Schnippel: But let me let Mike explain how he came aboard with us and what his thoughts are on everything. 

Brian Searl: So hold on one second, cause I want to hear from Mike, but my first, my question to you is going to lead to Mike, so talk us through, for those of you who aren’t watching, who aren’t familiar with Encore, talk us through the beginning, how you started Encore, why you started Encore and then through what led to Mike.

And then I think that’s a good transition to Mike. 

Rich Schnippel: All right. I was with another company. I’ve been in this industry since 2020. Either in motorsports, cargo trailer [00:34:00] type stuff or RVs. And I was with a company that was evolving from motorsports into the RV world. I wanted to get into that because it was a more scalable business.

There are thousands of RV dealers across the country and very limited number of people who can sell a custom motorsports trailer. So we started dabbing into that. In 2019, we had a party in Waze. I left the company and they bought my shares out. I had a two year non compete and I sat back and knew I wanted to do something and do it my way.

So I developed a business plan for Encore that was going to start with the adventure style trailers. I designed everything on grid paper and then took it to an engineer to have them engineer it. And that was the start which was our 12RK, which is our best selling unit still to date. We opened up the doors.

We knew it was a tough time. It really was difficult for us because we had so many vendors that were busy because of the COVID rush that didn’t want to do business with us. But before I signed a lease, I got commitments from the majority of the people which I was fortunate [00:35:00] enough to have relationships with some guys.

And we got that commitment and continued to grow. It was challenging, to get our first units out the door. I would tell you that. Opening in June, our first units really didn’t start flying out until October November, and that was just a few units. December, we probably pushed out about 15 units, and then in January is when we were able to scale it up and get it to a point where we weren’t burning cash, but making some.

We’ve been very patient in getting the company up and going. We’ve had stable growth throughout. We’ve been able to take market share because that’s really the only way we’re going to grow. We haven’t created anything relevantly new. We do build a 100 percent wood free product with an aluminum frame.

That’s a big deal. Our cabinetry is pretty amazing. If you’ve ever seen the videos where I try to tear a cab.

John Harris: Did we lose it? 

Brian Searl: It’s not me. So he froze. All right. 

Shane Devenish: He was on a roll, Brian. 

Brian Searl: He was, I know. We’re excited to hear the end of the story and hopefully Mike will be back too. Debbie, I’m curious [00:36:00] of your take, if you don’t mind sharing, and maybe this is just, this might be an ignorant question.

It might be a good question, Phil, to you. If we looked at inventory on dealerships, how do you. How do you decide big or small? Very, I know that’s a very generic question, but how do you decide what type of RVs to carry? Is it based on location, demographics, is it based on what you’re seeing selling in other areas, is it based on, I don’t, I’m just asking.

Phil Ingrassia: Debbie’s a perfect person to answer that question, because 

Rich Schnippel: I know she likes all sizes of RVs, don’t you Debbie? 

Debbie Brunoforte: Yes we do, and it’s a very simple answer actually Brian, just the consumer is the boss. And we are going to stock whatever we think people want. How 

Brian Searl: do you, and I promise I’ll get back to you in a second, Rich.

Thanks, we lost you there for a second. How do you get the data to understand what the customer wants to buy? For example, in this market shift that we’re seeing right now, towards, trending towards smaller vehicles, I think is a fair statement, right? Before that kind of happens, how do you have enough data to be able to [00:37:00] say, I think this is going to happen and stop in advance?

Debbie Brunoforte: It’s a really great question, Brian, because we do have to order the inventory in advance. We have to plan in advance. We’re trying to anticipate what the consumer wants. And then have it here available for them. So it’s an excellent question and it did change. So for example, during COVID, people just wanted the best, they were upscaling a little bit.

They were buying the nicer value products and willing to spend that money. History has taught us, and yes, it is, it’s panned out that way, but we did anticipate it because we’ve been here before. Anytime there’s some economic stress or challenge in the mind of the consumer they tend to downgrade a little bit.

Rather than buying the deadliest, most expensive one, they’re going to compromise a little bit. They might have the conversation, hey honey, should we buy an RV? Shouldn’t we buy an RV? And then they say okay, let’s go ahead and buy one, but we’ll buy a used one. Or, instead of buying the top tier one, we’ll buy the mid tier one.

We do see that right now, which, as I [00:38:00] mentioned, is fairly common in this type of environment. The most important economic indicator to me, Brian, is consumer confidence. That’s the one that I pay the most attention to, because that’s very relevant for our industry, and that’s the reason that business has been a little soft for the last year and a half.

Brian Searl: Thank you, I appreciate it. Rich, I want to give you a chance to finish and then briefly introduce Mike real quick. And then, John, I’ve got a question for you, John, after that. I just want to set you up and prep you for it. And that’s the electric chassis, I know we talked about how you’re building it for Thor, primarily as a Class A, right?

Is there a market for smaller chassis related to, as consumers shift to electrify everything? So that’s my question for you after Rich and Mike 

Rich Schnippel: finish. And I apologize. We have a, we’re wireless right now and the connection can drop. But as I was saying, so we’re growing the company and things are going pretty well.

We’ve been very fortunate to maintain a backlog. The next thing was really to start improving [00:39:00] our leadership because it’s not my niche. I’ll be the first one to tell you it’s not what I do. It’s not my background, not my sales, marketing. Product development guy. I’m not a leader or an operator, so to speak.

We had a couple guys that were here that didn’t work out for various reasons. Neither of the two had RV experience. We hired them from outside the industry thinking that might be a smart move. But didn’t work out quite like we expected. And we were fortunate enough to run across Mike and brought him in and he just pretty much crossed everything right off that we were looking for.

And it’s been in the short tenure that he’s been here, we’ve made huge advances in systems, best practices, and clearly in leadership. So that’s where I’m most excited because for me it was just too much of a challenge and I know my limitations and the best thing you can do is surround yourself with.

Talented people and let them run. And that’s what we’ve done. But I’ll let Mike tell you a little bit about that. 

Brian Searl: Yeah, no pressure, Mike. We just want [00:40:00] 75 percent year over year growth every year. 

Mike Depositar: Yeah. Just keep it simple. No, what I’ll say is this and I I appreciate what Debbie said when she was looking at, why she sold to who she sold and, I’ve been in this industry for just about 10 years now and I’ve been at the small manufacturer and I’ve been at the big manufacturer.

I started my career back at Evergreen RV and so I’ve been with the smallest manufacturers and I’ve been with the big ones. And the one thing I will say is stepping into this space. When you have a company that their North Star isn’t completely predicated off of just year over year revenue.

You have the opportunity to do business the right way. And the one thing that I recognized, and just listening to dealers over the last two to three years specifically in quality, specifically in customer service warranty, the back end, how we treat not just our customer, the end consumer, But our customer, the dealer it was a point where I said that, man I don’t know what I want to do for a while.

And so I took some time off from the industry and it was a really neat opportunity to step into this role. And I’m super excited to step in here [00:41:00] because I see the quality. I see the care. We have a backlog and I’ve been with the companies that say, Hey, we have a backlog let’s build everything immediately and we’re choosing to scale accordingly, so quality statement, so that we can make sure what All aluminum products that, when they come offline and they deliver to the dealership that the PDI is essentially just checking to make sure that it’s unhooked from the other trailer or unhooked and you’re able to sell it.

So that, that’s really where I was excited to step into Encore and I’m super excited for the future. 

Brian Searl: He is good, Rich. Do you, is there a 60 day raise period that you need to give him or? 

But Mike, my question for you and one question real quick before we go to John is As you look at the challenges that, and I’m, I don’t mean specifically about Encore because I don’t want to give you any secrets away or anything like that, right?

But as you look at the challenges operationally from building the types of RVs that Encore is building, what do you see is the biggest kind of thing you need to overcome to make the industry better? 

Mike Depositar: So I think [00:42:00] one thing is, and I do believe, because I’m seeing it in the market right now, consumers, and it’s probably the same challenge that John’s going to face, is that consumer Right now to what Debbie was saying is looking for that value proposition, right?

They’re looking to say, Hey, let’s not necessarily spend the money on the most effective unit. They’re saying, Hey, how do I get the best deal? And we have to be vigilant as a manufacturer to say, just because we think Hey, let’s just cut costs to cut costs. So we can hit that dollar amount. We have to make sure that the products that we’re putting out have the value that customer needs.

And then being able to educate, not just the dealership, but their salespeople to explain that to the consumer. Because I think that’s one thing that we fail to do quite frequently is we put a unit out and then the consumer gets frustrated because they say,

Brian Searl: Oh 

Mike Depositar: it doesn’t look this way. Hey, this is failing on me. [00:43:00] I lose ya? I got you. 

Brian Searl: You’re back. You thought we lost you, but you came back. 

Mike Depositar: So where’d you lose me at? 

Shane Devenish: No we didn’t, you kept going. 

Brian Searl: We just, yeah, it was just a blip. So I think you caught up. 

Mike Depositar: Nope. But so essentially my point being is we just have to do a better job making sure that the products that we put out have the value that the customers expect, but that we educate them in a way so that they know what they’re getting.

Cause I think a lot of times they’re buying product right now on that value proposition and they’re not getting what they expect and then there’s a level of frustration that gets passed to the dealer or to the manufacturer themselves. So that’s going to be just staying vigilant in putting the correct products together with the value that they expect and quite honestly the quality that they deserve.

Brian Searl: Awesome. Thank you, Mike. John, do you remember the question? 

John Harris: It’s been a while, but I do. Can I ask a quick question to Debbie though? First? Of course you can. Yeah. Go ahead. I’m wondering with such a large chain of locations, do the locations start to specialize a bit organically? Do [00:44:00] you have a location that’s mostly adventure trailers and a different location that’s mostly toy haulers, or do they all stay like full spectrum, everything within recreational vehicles?

Debbie Brunoforte: Yeah, I’ll be above John. We have a lot of locations that carry this full spectrum, but yes, we do have some Airstream leaderships, for example, and we do have leaderships that specialize in motorized. That’s their core competency. It is it is different, but yes, on those four areas where specialty is required, such as, Airstream dealership or a higher end motorized dealership.

We do have locations that specialize in that. 

John Harris: Cool. Yeah, just curious with the unique position in your dealership, how that kind of affects the product. And 

Debbie Brunoforte: you’re right, because your product, you’re building a little bit of a higher end product. And most dealerships, you either operate, you can operate really well in one, or maybe two spaces.

And so [00:45:00] those spaces are either competitive, medium, or premium. So you would not want to put your premium product on a competitive dealership. They most likely will not be successful selling that product. So it really is an excellent question. 

John Harris: That makes sense. Thanks. So Brian, you asked about demand for the smaller RVs and electrification.

And I’m assuming you’re primarily asking about demand. So that’s an area with so much growth but also maybe some of the C’s as well.

Brian Searl: I think so, but take it wherever you want, it’s like you’re, way more than I do. 

John Harris: So I think the demand is definitely there. I think the demand for an electric B van in particular is super high, but I think that’s an area where the technology is not really ready yet to offer something that customers are going to find compelling.

And so that’s a risk that we have to look at with electrification is that, There’s, you see a lot of people in electrification who say, the answer is electrify everything. And that just [00:46:00] invites, pushback. People don’t want to think that electrification is being shoved down their throat.

And so we really try to focus on applications where it just fits easily. So with a Class A, it’s a big enough vehicle, it’s a heavy enough vehicle that we can put enough battery capacity on that to make it compelling for a customer. What we’ve seen in the Class E space. Is, with a 10, 000 pound vehicle, it’s very difficult to build battery packs on that vehicle to give you more than 150 miles of range.

And even then, it’s going to necessitate pretty high end, ultralight construction of the interior. And I just don’t think that’s a product that is going to appeal to very many people with a range that short for the RV space. So they get that really compelling product in Class B. I think we need probably a couple more years of battery chemistry improvements to come to market.

I think this C van is a little bit more viable now, but of course then we’re not really talking about something that’s smaller. We’re just talking about a different style. [00:47:00] We are building a cab for this product as well. It’s coming down the road and we have some partners that are bringing out a cab sooner, but that’s not necessarily smaller.

That’s just, some people prefer the style of a Class A versus a Class C. They’re going to be offered on the same GBWs and that means we can offer the same ranges you might actually see slightly better range on your Class C, because there’s opportunities for, I think, more aerodynamic improvements with a Class C cab.

Brian Searl: Awesome. I want to come back and wrap up the show in a second, but before we do, Shara was kind enough to remind me that I forgot about our sponsor again, because I’m old and forget about everything. So just briefly, I want to tell you about our sponsor, Access Parks, who provides Wi Fi to campgrounds and RV parks.

Obviously into these, futuristic, more electric chassis too, as we get maybe even smart home stuff in there. So brief message from our sponsor, Access Parks, and then we’ll be right back guys. 

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John Harris: I need their Wi Fi. I may as well stop reading the calls. 

Rich Schnippel: Yes, Rich 

Brian Searl: and Mike need their Wi Fi. 

Rich Schnippel: I’m going to sign up. I’m going to sign up.

Brian Searl: So guys I think it was a great show, it was a great discussion, obviously we have a lot here we can close with in the next few minutes if you want to take it in that direction, but we talked about electric chassis, different inventory that dealerships carry, things like that. Where, do you guys have any final thoughts?

Anything you want to, that we haven’t touched on? And the answer is, someone’s required to, please, because I don’t know enough. 

John Harris: That was the only thing. I was just asking [00:49:00] if the all aluminum construction, does that lead to meaningfully lighter trailers as well alongside the durability benefits? 

Rich Schnippel: Not necessarily because it takes a little bit more aluminum to to get the strength of the steel.

So we, I would tell you that we do overbuild our chassis a little bit. We have a five year structural warranty that’s transferable to any subsequent owner in that five years. We do two year bumper to bumper on everything else. We have to make certain it’s going to hold together, especially knowing that some of our customers take it off road.

But, is it lighter? Yeah, a little bit. But that’s not really the reason to buy an aluminum frame, in my opinion. I would say it’s more a couple reasons would be because the frame’s more expensive, the manufacturer tends to take a little bit more time and build a better product because they know they have to charge more for it anyway.

B would also be no, no rust or corrosion. You don’t have to paint it. It stays, We’re building something that is nicer looking, longer, and it is going to last a lot longer. Aluminum will corrode, but at a much lower rate than what steel will. And if you look at some of the chassis that are [00:50:00] out there, they’re not what I would consider overbuilt.

They’re built to do what they’re supposed to do, and that tends to be sometimes on a limited time frame. And we’re really building something that in We don’t have the testing to prove it, but I’m, I would tell you with pretty certainty that it’s generational. You can pass this down and or when you decide to get rid of it, it’s going to have some value where you’re going to get a higher return on your investment.

Brian Searl: Is aluminum the permanent way for you or is there other materials you’re looking at or? 

Rich Schnippel: We deal in some composites. We’ve started to evaluate some different composites and consider some even for the frame. We’re not there yet. I would tell you that at some point, we will have what I would say is your traditional trailer which would probably incorporate a steel frame, and we may even introduce wood at that point, depending, probably on a limited basis, maybe in the cabinetry.

But that’s a little ways down the road when we decide that we’ve done what we need to in the space that we’re in right now. Somewhere down the road, probably. [00:51:00] 

Brian Searl: Anybody else have any final thoughts? Got a couple minutes, guys. Nobody wants to hear from me, I promise you. 

Phil Ingrassia: I would just say, Rich, I think that you guys have made the right decision to build a dealer network, number one.

Obviously, I work for RV dealers, we’ve seen some of these startups try to go manufacture direct to consumer, and then those consumers don’t have a service network behind them, and they don’t have the confidence that when they’re on the road that there’s going to be, help for them.

I think Kudos to you guys for recognizing that right off the bat. 

Rich Schnippel: That’s the strongest part of our partnership is with our dealers. It really is. And I’ve seen factory direct, I’ve seen how it can destroy a business. And I think if once you make that decision to be there, dealers don’t forget it and and they have a right not to I need, we need shelf space across the country and we need service, places for our things to be serviced when they need it.

And we need dealers to have the expertise to sell the product. And it’s just a valuable partnership that we really rely on [00:52:00] heavily. 

Brian Searl: Are you in Canada yet, Rich? 

Rich Schnippel: Yes. Okay. Yeah. We’ve got five or six dealers in Canada right now. Shane, 

Brian Searl: how can you get him in a hundred? You got to pull your weight over there, Shane.

Come on. 

Shane Devenish: Hey, Rich, join the CRBA. I’ll plug you all over. 

Rich Schnippel: Okay.

Brian Searl: You’ve been quiet, Shane. What’s going on in Canada? CRVA, tell us. Yeah, 

Shane Devenish: We’re gearing up for our Advocacy Day in Ottawa in a couple weeks, and I’m pretty excited about that, meeting with MPs, we’re actually meeting, our Lobby Day is the day after the Canadian budget is unveiled, which is always just a thrill to hear what we didn’t get.

But we have A couple of RVs on this really neat road where there’s no cars, it’s all walking through with restaurants and bars and everything. And it’s one parliament building to another. So they walk right by us at [00:53:00] a campground display Debbie, you’ll like this with a couple of RVs and some big marshmallows and they come by and they get a photo op and, and talk to a few of us.

And it’s really something that went well with year that we did it last year. We’re looking forward to doing it again. 

Brian Searl: Anybody else? Two minutes left, guys. 

Debbie Brunoforte: I do love that, Shane. I think we need to do that in the U. S. when we do RVs in America. It’s very cool. 

Brian Searl: Just put the RVs in the bath of the legislators?

Shane Devenish: Wow, it’s in this area and it’s a cobblestone road. It’s really neat. It’s a, it’s a neat little activation. 

Brian Searl: What if we just send Debbie’s Rangers with the tasers? 

Shane Devenish: I think that would do it. Give us what we want and we’re up to your taste.

Debbie Brunoforte: Hey, can I take just a moment to say thank you to John and thank you to Rich. I appreciate you guys for making innovative products. Rich, the lightweight, the solid [00:54:00] construction Arizona people like to go off road, although you’re right, it’s just like a logging road or a fire road, but still, the lightweight is very important for our consumers.

Vehicles are becoming lighter and lighter. We need lighter RVs that that can be towed by smaller vehicles. And John, I just love the electric idea. I think that’s the way of the future and I’m happy that there are early people out there driving this innovation. 

John Harris: Thanks, Debbie. 

Rich Schnippel: Great, thank you.

Brian Searl: Okay, so let’s wrap up the show real quick. John, where can they find out for the manufacturers who might be watching, which I assume is your target audience, yes? Yep. So for the manufacturers who might be watching, where can they learn more about your chassis? HarbingerMotors. com. HarbingerMotors. com.

HarbingerMotors. com. Rich, sorry, I didn’t mean to say it. Sorry. Too excited to go to Mike and say Rich and Mike. Rich and Mike, where can they learn more about Encore RV? 

Our website’s one of the best places. That would be Encore RV. com. But I would encourage people to [00:55:00] go to our Facebook page or the owner’s group.

The owner’s group is a great place as I always say, to see the good, the bad, and the ugly of any company, and see how we treat people. And, You’ll find like our warranty person is known by name there and they consider her a rock star. I’m very active in it, take a lot of phone calls all the time.

I’m usually up till 2 2. 30 in the morning. I’ve been on the phone with customers well past midnight. Just what they have to tell me and I really enjoy it. I’m passionate about this industry and and more. 

Debbie, we’re gonna find out more about what you have going on. 

Debbie Brunoforte: On on our website, is that what you’re asking, Brian?

Brian Searl: Or anywhere you want to direct people to find out more about what you have to do. Obviously you’d love to have them come in, right? But if we can’t do that, second best. 

Debbie Brunoforte: Yeah, come on in, but if you can’t come in, go to the website. We’re Little Dealer, Little Prices in Arizona. The website is littledealer. com or you can go to campersin. com and that’s [00:56:00] with two N’s, campersin. com. And thank you for having me today. 

Brian Searl: Yeah, you’re welcome. Thank you for being here. I appreciate it, phil. It’s rvda. com or rvda. org.

Phil Ingrassia: Sorry, RVDA. org and I just want to let people know that our convention is coming up at the end of the year so you can find all the information that people are interested in attending the RVDA convention November 11th through 15th in Las Vegas. 

Brian Searl: And then last but not least, Shane, I wanted you to just personally, the last thing, tell Rich where he can go spend his money after the show.

Shane Devenish: www.cr va.ca, . 

Brian Searl: Alright, cva, do ca Thank you guys. I really appreciate you rich for being a special guest, John, for being a special guest. Debbie, just a great conversation, Shane and Phil for being here as always, and we’ll see you next week on another episode of Mc Fireside Chats. Take care, guys. Have a great day.

Phil Ingrassia: Thank you. 

Debbie Brunoforte: Thank you. 

Rich Schnippel: Thank you. Good. 

Thanks for joining us for this [00:57:00] episode of MC Fireside Chats with your host, Brian Searl. Have a suggestion for a show idea? Want your campground or company in a future episode? Email us at hello at moderncampground. com. Get your daily dose of news from moderncampground. com and be sure to join us next week for more insights into the fascinating world of outdoor hospitality.