MC Fireside Chats – March 13th, 2024

This is MC Fireside Chats, a weekly show featuring conversations with thought leaders, entrepreneurs, and outdoor hospitality experts who share their insights to help your business succeed. Hosted by Brian Searl, the founder and CEO of Insider Perks, empowered by insights from Modern Campground, the most innovative news source in the industry.

Brian Searl: Welcome everybody to another episode of MC Fireside [00:01:00] Chats. My name is Brian Searl with Insider Perks. Super excited to be here for our week two episode, focused on all things glamping. We’ve got a bunch of new people joining as recurring guests today, as well as one special guest. Is it Louis? It’s Louis, right?

Louis Dupont: Yeah, we say Louis in French. We don’t say it as actually. 

Brian Searl: That’s why I was asking, right? So you want, it’s Louis. Okay. All right. 

Louis Dupont: Yeah. 

Brian Searl: So Louis from Huttopia. Is that right? Yeah. So he’s going to talk about his cool company and some of the things that they have going on. They’re just new to America, right?

So you were telling us before the show. So super excited to hear about them, and then we’ve got Zach we’re gonna go around the room and introduce everybody, but Zach from Clockwork, we’ve got a couple new guests here, Todd Winperry, Miguel Huerta from the Mexican Camping Association, and Angel Miller, whose name I’ve magically managed to remember and pronounce right, so I’m really proud of myself.

But lots of things going on this week, and lots of things changing, so I’m super excited, like Google updated their SEO algorithm, and Modern Campground went, whoop, straight up, so we might get to 70 80, 000 visitors this month, I’m excited, so hopefully we’ll And he’s saying that publicly doesn’t make them reverse it.

Do you want to go around the room, really, and just briefly introduce [00:02:00] ourselves? Do you want to start, Zach, since you’re the only old guest? 

Zach Stoltenberg: I’m Zach. I’m the Director of Outdoor Hospitality for Clockwork Architecture. We’re based in Kansas City, and we work with Glamping Resort owners and founders. To do master planning and design services for them and we help people build glampgrounds.

Brian Searl: Awesome. Super excited to have you here, Zach. As always. Angele, you want to go next? 

Angele Miller: Yeah. Hi, my name is Angele Miller and I’m one of the founders for Creekside RNR Glamping Resort located in New Brunswick, Canada. And we’re also currently franchising our resort all over Canada and United States.

Brian Searl: Awesome, congratulations. I definitely want to hear more about that. There’s probably a need for glamping franchises. We’ll hear, Ruben I’m sure can weigh in on that and give us some expertise. Welcome, Ruben and Chris, by the way. Good to see you guys. Todd Wynne-Parry, another new recurring guest for us. 

Chris Jeub: Hi, yeah, I’m Todd [00:03:00] Wynne-Parry.

I work with Horwath HTL providing consulting to the glamping industry, outdoor hospitality, everything from RV parks, with a lot of accommodation all the way up to. Beautiful tack on 4, 000 a night tents at luxury resorts. Majority of my work ends up being with projects between 10 and 30 million.

I work with site owners and developers getting them from A to Z. And investors that are excited about this particular sector of the hospitality industry. And brands, so brands that are looking to scale and grow. I provide back my background experience from hotel brand expansion to to young startups.

Brian Searl: Awesome. I would like to volunteer to be an influencer in any 4, 000 a night tents that you feel like need extra coverage. So I tried to pull that off with Zach for the Bahamas. So hopefully that’s in the works too. Miguel. 

Miguel Huerta: Hello everybody. I’m Miguel Huerta. I’m the president of the Mexican Glamping Association.[00:04:00] 

I’m also the CEO of Nant Living, the first glamping operator in Mexico and things are looking up here in the country recently. We were… we’re part of the largest tourism association in Mexico. So we sit with the largest hotel operators airport owners. It’s impressive. They have embraced the glamping category as a whole.

And of course, like in, on the other side of the personal side, We just opened our fourth location and before the end of the year we’re going to end up with three more. So things are looking up over here in Mexico, sunny Mexico I would say. 

Brian Searl: Awesome, I’m really glad to have you as a, I’ve never been on the show before, but I’m really glad to have you as a recurring guest because I feel like there’s a lot of crossover here between the U. S., Canada, with Angele, with you from Mexico, and obviously Ruben from The American Slash Canadian. You need another word in there Ruben, you’re expanding in Canada. North American. 

Ruben Martinez: Maydian. 

Brian Searl: Maydian? 

Ruben Martinez: Just coined it right there. 

Brian Searl: I [00:05:00] like that’s cool. But we already are trying to brand glamping and do other stuff, I don’t know if you want to take on another task like that.

Ruben Martinez: Probably not, but hey, we’ll see what happens. 

Brian Searl: Ruben, tell us who you are for those who don’t know. 

Ruben Martinez: Yeah, everybody. Ruben Martinez, the founder of the American Glamping Association. So we provide tools resource network community for anybody and everybody in the space. So good to see everybody’s faces and looking forward to catching up, but hopefully everybody’s doing well and happy Wednesday.

Brian Searl: Awesome. Thanks for being here, Ruben. I know it’s been a couple of months. You’re a busy guy, so sorry to get ahold of you, but glad to have you here. All right, then Chris. 

Chris Jeub: Yes, hey, nice seeing everybody here, this full room. My name is Chris Jeub. I run, operate, Monument Glamping here in Monument, Colorado, have been for going on six years.

I left teaching to actually do glamping and I’ve emerged the two in the last year. I call myself the glamping guy online, glampingguy. com and I develop educational materials to help landowners develop safe, legal, and [00:06:00] profitable glamping operations on their private properties. So that’s me.

Brian Searl: Awesome. Thanks for being here, Chris. I know we’ve got a full room today. Normally, we would just have a recurring guest, talk about some topics and things like that have come across their desk in the last month of the Camping Episode. But I think today, given we have a new recurring guest, we want to make sure that we talk a little bit about their businesses and their experiences and things like that.

Let’s start with Louie, who is Our special guest, Louis. 

Louis Dupont: Yeah, thank you very much, Brian. 

Brian Searl: You will miss him, perhaps not be back next month. So let’s give Louis a chance to introduce his company briefly. 

Louis Dupont: Yeah, thank you. So I’m the manager for Huttopia North America. We do manufacture tiny houses more like part model RV, so this is tiny houses built on a trailer on wheels.

So they can be moved on the road and they don’t need like a special permits. And so I work for a French company. We just started the business like 11 months ago in the U S. So when I arrived in Pennsylvania, I had a warehouse, but it was empty. So I haven’t, I had to find the suppliers to see [00:07:00] how we are to change the design regarding the American standards, because we want it to be NC compliance.

So we got a lot of inspections from the RVIA who came every two months to help us and to advise us. On what do we have to change, what we can keep. Regarding the specifications and the design of the park model RV. And now we built the first units that we got a chance to bring to the glamping show in Denver, Colorado in October.

So we bring the units in Denver and we had a lot of visit, like 150 people came during these two days to visit the roulettes, it’s how we called our first park model RV, and now we are discussing with all the leads we have to see how we can help them on the project. And we deliver these units like fully equipped.

We have a kitchen, a bathroom, mattresses in the tour room, a TV, AC units for heating and cooling. So it comes fully equipped. We have partners for the installation, partners for the transportation. So it’s very easy. Like basically we deliver and you can start renting it [00:08:00] the same day. So it was a big challenge to develop this tiny house manufacturing company here.

And we also have a sister company, this is called Utopia and they are running the campsites themselves. So they have four campsites in the northeast of the U. S., two in California, and one new one which is opening up in Catalina Island. They are Los Angeles. This is the next one that will open this summer.

Brian Searl: Awesome. So for those of recurring guests who are already here, Zach, Ruben, and Chris, who have been here before, you guys know this is an open discussion for our recurring guests. Please pop in and ask whoever we’re chatting and insert yourself into the conversation so they can hear less of me and the show will be better.

But Luis, or Louis, while we’re, Thinking while everybody’s thinking about that, I have one question. So you came over from France, exactly market. There must’ve been a reason to do that. And then what do you feel like sets your company apart from the other glamping manufacturers who are currently targeting the U S market?

Louis Dupont: So do you mean about my reason or the reason of the company? 

Brian Searl: Both if you feel like it’s interesting, 

Louis Dupont: [00:09:00] yeah. Yeah. I just wanted to get a challenge like abroad and starts working in another country for a big project of some French company to help them like develop in other countries.

So I just found the opportunity. And actually the fund, the founders of the company, like 25 years ago, they did a big trip in the U S and in Canada. And they loved the outdoors there. But they saw like all the different outdoors and the camping and the glamping years ago. It was pretty much just like RV parks and like piece of lands with nothing on it.

And you just come with your RV park. And so the glamping is really growing and growing up the last few years. And so we developed the glamping with many different models. Like We have 20 different models in the French company that deliver tiny houses through all Europe. So we wanted to give it a shot and to try to present our French design model in the U. S. for the American, Canadian, and Mexican glamping communities to offer a [00:10:00] European point of view about what is glamping about. And so this is different because we had a lot of challenges like to go through because the toilets, they’re not at all the same, the windows, they are not at all the same.

And even the, what people used to do and what do they want for camping? It’s very different here in the US and in France. So we had to go through all of these challenges, but it’s very interesting that we’re learning a lot each day about the differences between these two continents. 

Brian Searl: It is an interesting, and I’m sure all of our guests here, please pipe in and so I can not talk, but so it is interesting.

We’ve talked a lot about Ruben and Zach on this show about the similarities between the glamping markets and how they’re a lot the same, right? And obviously the UK has maybe an earlier lead and stuff like that, but we haven’t talked a lot about the differences for some of these global manufacturers that come to the show, Ruben.

Ruben Martinez: Yeah, no, and it’d be interesting to get everybody’s perspective here, but, I feel like it comes in [00:11:00] cycles and to a certain degree as well. And obviously there’s, as people are looking inwards to North America as a whole, they see a level of opportunity and there’s some infrastructure that Other international companies can come in and bring in and add value.

That wasn’t really happening 10 years ago, right? There wasn’t as much movement or inroads and now the demand, obviously people are seeing the infrastructure is there and, we’ve helped a few. International companies come in and just set up shop and do what they need to to do here.

But I think those differences also bring a new energy and bring a new perspective, because within any industry, as you’re operating, you can do your day to day over the years and then not challenge your assumptions or not think creatively or not innovate. I think the more and more, International companies that come in, I think the more and more international money international operations that come in there’s always good and bad to a certain degree, but I do think that it will at the [00:12:00] top level create innovation and create competitiveness and create new ideas that should in the long run only benefit the industry as a whole.

So I think, I don’t know what everybody else thinks, but I feel like Definitely last three years feeling that, the more companies that are coming in new, small, medium, and large. It feels like it’s a good thing. It feels like it really can create innovative ideas and competition and people to learn from each other or else the risk is we all get stale.

And I’m already old, so I’m already stale, hopefully for the younger people, younger operators with more energy just being able to learn from each other, everybody wins in those scenarios. 

Brian Searl: You’re not old, Ruben. Look at my gray hair. You don’t have any gray hair at all.

Ruben Martinez: Haha. I just look good for 85. That’s it. 

Brian Searl: That’s, you gotta tell me your secrets then, but we’ll do that offline. Does anybody have any thoughts on that? 

Todd Wynne-Parry: Yeah, if I could piggyback on that’s I find the glamping industry to be so incredibly creative. I say it’s the cr most creative asset class in all of real [00:13:00] estate, outdoor hospitality, everything.

And things are changing so quickly. We just Ruben and I just, were over on another call with the with the American Atlantic Association, Kathleen Walsh. was presenting something, and I really at first thought it was the same presentation she gave last October, but she had just updated it last week or two, and I was busily taking notes because a lot has changed just in six months.

Some of the information that was coming across the table was intriguing and thought provoking. I was thinking, oh, how can I make some last minute changes to my development that I’ve been working all winter on for the upcoming season? The element of creativity, like everything else is down here, like a standard industry, and glamping is way up here. It’s just so creative. 

I think it’s the funnest, some people will find that insecure as far as business and making money and things like that, because you can make a bad decision quickly and lose money on it, But if you stay on the cutting edge of the industry it’s incredibly creative and there’s, I don’t know, there’s lots of good business to to make money at.[00:14:00] 

Brian Searl: So we talk about the kind of cutting edge and the way things bleed over into other industries, countries, things like that. I’m interested to hear your thoughts, Todd, because you have a big hotel background and we talked a little bit about some of this when we met at Arvick, Ohio but some of that crossover that you’re seeing.

Chris Jeub: Yeah, so interesting. I had a comment and a question actually for Louis, but the comment to Ruben’s topic around foreign players coming in and whatnot, what we’re seeing out there right now is this this struggle between the cost of construction, the cost of manufacturing here in the U. S. versus the cost of transport, bringing product in from overseas. And and I struggle with that because I know you want to keep your product and your cost for a larger development anyway, at a certain number below 300, 000 or below 200, 000 per key or whatever the number might be.

And sometimes you can get that product from overseas even shipped in at lesser cost than having it constructed here. I’ll leave to the side the environmental issue of [00:15:00] impact on putting ships on the high seas when you don’t have to. But we run into that struggle all the time in terms of is it better just to do it here or manufacture overseas and ship it in.

Which brings me to the question to Louis, is Huttopia has typically been known as a it’s a great activity centered product. I love it. I’ve been to the properties. I haven’t experienced it one on one. I haven’t personally been there and done all the activities, but I love the sort of Club Med goes to the mountains concept where you really have a very activity forward programming and you’re in a great, very stock standard safari tent that is super it’s great.

It’s what you think of, I think, in terms of an exhibition style safari tent where you’re, studying something while you’re out in the bush. Why the move then to go to a a park model? Is that part of a future plan for Huttopia to do hard sided product more than their start up camp?

Louis Dupont: Yeah, for the future campsite we are thinking about it because we always [00:16:00] want to offer many different possible accommodations to our customers. Because if you don’t offer, if the glamping community, the glamping campsite just offers like one type of accommodations, your customers might not come back the years after.

For they might just come once, but if you have many types of accommodations or many different experiences to propose them, they might come back. And also, if we do like hard sided, Like park model accommodation or more resistance, more insulated, maybe they can last through like the whole year. So we can rent it, like the hard units, we can rent them like through the whole year.

And so we can keep some parts of the campground open the whole year. And we have a project in the back shires in Massachusetts, we might open a new campsite in two years there. And we are working on developing a new park model RV. For this campground in Massachussetts, and we will do three different areas.

The first area will be for tents, the one you had the chance to [00:17:00] experience. The second area will be more like park models. And the third area will be like, just piece of land. So you can bring your RV or you can just like hike through the area and plant your own tent. So we will have the three different types of accommodation.

And we always try to offer a very diversity. And we also open, we also want to open like our product to sell them to other campgrounds. So we not only sell and deliver tiny houses to Huttopia. We do propose of course, to every campground and glamping owners. 

Brian Searl: Miguel, I’m interested to hear your take on this.

Again, we’re talking about differences between countries and I think we had talked a little bit about the, at the glamping show about how you have a lot of local labor, build your accommodations, right? How do you, is that true or no? First, I’m misremembering. We had a lot of alcohol, 

Miguel Huerta: yeah. Here’s the thing.

Actually, Mexico has become the largest trading partner for the U. S. Okay. This nearshoring [00:18:00] trend that is happening in Mexico, all because of the restrictions that the past administration imposed on China. It has allowed and not only for glamping, but in general for Mexico to become the second largest trade partner.

I have seen projects where some pieces or parts are being manufactured in China and the last assembling and some raw materials and labor are being added in Mexico. So at the end, that is a lot on the tariff side of things. But I also have seen it work from the U. S. to Mexico. What do I mean by this?

There are a couple of American manufacturers that they have not realized that they need to take advantage on the free trade agreement that we have within Canada, the U. S. and Mexico. They can be more cost competitive and not only rely on the qualitative side of things, which is important, but at the end for example, for the Mexican economy, the [00:19:00] price of the tents or the supplies is very demanding.

But if they have a certificate of RVing, the tariffs basically go to zero. So that’s a small tip that I give to some manufacturers that are listening. So yeah, definitely I see that. This international overlapping trend will increase more and more. In the last glamping show, it was very interesting to see how the lack of human resources is one of the main constraints that American operators have.

So again, there are visas that are very easy To source, to bring high qualified individuals from places like Mexico and bring them to, to, to these glamping sites that operate on a certain timeframe. And for example, another thing that happened between the last glamping show and today is that sadly, for example, [00:20:00] one of the most important and historical Touristic cities in Mexico, which is Acapulco, sadly got hit by a hurricane.

There’s a lot of labor that is also willing to go to the States within certain conditions. Again, everything that I see is an international overlap that can work in different ways. 

Brian Searl: I’m curious, from your two hats perspective, what’s your perspective? As glamping association leader, and then as the owner of your multiple resorts, how do you approach the counseling of people who ask questions of the association, and for your own resorts, what do I buy, when do I buy, how do I buy, how do I determine, does this make more sense for me versus this, as you look cross border and what do I buy?

Miguel Huerta: I like this term that I learned when I was in business school in the States, which is cross pollination. And I think that there are a lot of [00:21:00] good practices that, sure, in Latin America we learn from the world leaders as you guys, but I think that we also have some tips and stories to share. For example, in our case, the OTAs are not as big as they are in the States for example only 15%, at least, this is me talking from my company, from Nantli Living.

Only a 15 percent of our revenue comes from the OTAs. So that means that we have a direct connection with the clients, that we don’t have that cost on the charges that or the commissions that the OTAs impose on the properties. And it is very intriguing because at the end that’s like the holy grail, that we wanna be a little bit more direct to consumer.

And the other three thing that that I’m also sharing here through the Mexican Glamping Association is, I don’t know if you have seen that in the European Union the people or OTAs such [00:22:00] as booking.com and Airbnb, they’re getting, regulated by the authorities and what I foresee is that the properties need to improve their direct to client sales capabilities.

So for example, it was funny that you mentioned how the SEO algorithm changed but now Google is also allowing for all this properties listed on websites and it’s working with certain platforms. Such as CloudBets, where if you have your property with those platforms. You can list it and it will show on top of the OTAs pricing.

That’s something very interesting and at the end, I think that what that’s the final outcome of that will be that only the most complex and more sophisticated operators [00:23:00] will will mature and will be the leaders in the market. So it’s pretty interesting. Things are getting, I wouldn’t say more complicated, but are getting more interesting per the minute.

Brian Searl: Angele, do you have any thoughts on this from a Canadian perspective? I was going to ask Zach, but he’s blinking in and out of the part. 

Angele Miller: Yes, for sure I do. For me, like on the perspective of being like a glamping resort owner I think the your product like Louis, like the tiny home, it is products that are in demand.

I think as the glamping industry rises and there’s more and more coming out on the market, people are looking for more and more innovative or very kind of unique products item. I think the fact that you’re also looking into making it More seasonal, especially for us Canadians is very important. Glamping can be a challenge when it’s minus 40 outside, right?

I think that’s very good that you’re taking initiatives with that. I mean [00:24:00] for us too one of the big thing that I found as well is like when we first when you’re looking at glamping there was not really any set standards and things vary from, like just You know, you don’t even have a washroom right inside your unit, like depending on how you’re designing and building them to now you have the full on luxury aspect.

I think things are going to get more and more strict and people will be a little bit more Looking for that product that can offer that or be a bit more quality, but also the regulatory around that just to let you know even us here in Eastern Canada when we first started, there was no engineering type of signatures or approvals that we needed, now you do.

So things are getting to be a little bit more strict in terms of regulatory around construction and things like that, but definitely in terms of unique accommodation that we would call glamping that goes [00:25:00] from the type of cabin that you’re building to extreme unique type of accommodation is on demand, it is on the rise, but in terms of the structure and how you design it to meet approvals, because now it is getting straight, and I honestly think that it’s going to get more and more as the industry evolves, so it’s good to see that, you’re getting there.

Already thinking like that and taking good initiative. And obviously the return on investment on something like that, especially from my perspective, being a resort owner. It’s also very important, and I know a lot of campgrounds do love to add structures like that because it can increase their return on investment pretty high, but to keep the competitiveness also on the price range can really make you elevate in the market as a supplier and a manufacturer because, yeah.

When we’re adding things like that, so even for us now, if I say I’m going to add two or three or four more of these units, [00:26:00] I’m going to look at the return on investment. And for me in Canada, if I can open all year round or part of the year, I’m going to pick that option, obviously, before I make it seasonal.

So yeah, so that’s what I had to share about that, but it’s definitely something that people are looking more for. And I think we need more, and especially some that are bringing innovation, quality that you, that can help you pass also all those regulatory steps that we now have to do.

Brian Searl: Zach, I’m curious to hear, and please, for our recurring guests, no one wants to hear me speak. Ever. So if you just want to pipe in and ask a question, that would be wonderful. But Zach, I’m curious of your perspective from an architecture standpoint, as we talk about, and I know we’ve talked about your Bahamas property before.

I don’t want to dive into what that is, but just picking it because it’s in a different country. How do you, as you’re consulting for something like your Bahamas project, Look at all these different manufacturers from [00:27:00] France and the UK and South Africa and the United States and Canada and everywhere else.

What is your thought process when you’re figuring out what to offer, how to offer it, how to design it, how to decide? 

Zach Stoltenberg: A couple thoughts I had in listening to everyone. One, I have to give Louie and Hagatopia a shout out because I did get to see their unit that they bought to the glamping show this year and It was absolutely gorgeous.

I think it was one of the fit and finish, the level of quality, the build that they did. It was beautiful. And it was a really efficient use of space. As a design professional, coming from that perspective seeing a four person unit in that platform I thought it was really creative.

And I think the thing that struck out at me the most was just how different it is from every other park model that we have. And to Ruben’s point, we get stagnant, right? We have the 5 big major manufacturers in the U. S. that probably do going 80 [00:28:00] percent of the business in the park models. And they’re still building the same cabins today that they started building in 1972.

And so anytime we get new companies that bring in that fresh perspective and are doing something different I think it’s really exciting. I thought it was interesting when Louie talked about, going through the certification process, because in my business and what we do, that’s, That’s one of the biggest challenges to working with international partners.

We have worked closely with manufacturers both in China and Mexico. To help them navigate that, that permitting piece, how do we, you build this really amazing, cool unit, but how do we get it permitted and entitled here in the U. S.? How do we convince the jurisdiction that this is going to be a safe thing for guests to come and stay in?

And so I, when Louie mentioned, going through the RBIA certification, I’m very familiar with that process and that’s no easy task. And I think it’s a testament to the kind of their commitment that they’ve made here. But I’m excited to see new players. One of the things [00:29:00] and I think Todd alluded to this with some of the supply chain challenges right now, I don’t care how much money you have I could go to a park model manufacturer today and say, I have a half a million dollars.

I want to buy, 8 of your park model units. They’ll say, awesome, fabulous. Here’s the paperwork. We’ll deliver them in a year. And so the demand is outpacing what we’re seeing in the market. So anytime we’re getting new manufacturers and innovators coming in, I think it’s a good thing for our industry.

But to, to your point, to your question, that is a challenge. We’ve As Clockwork we designed and developed a very unique glamping tent almost two years ago now, and we are working with a vendor with a manufacturing partner that we’ve licensed that design to, actually several different manufacturers that we’ve licensed designs to and so seeing that kind of progress and what we’ve looked at, when we priced the units through a U. S. manufacturer originally, they were, They were close to 100, [00:30:00] 000 to build. We priced them with a manufacturer in Canada and the price dropped to about 80, 000 to build, and then we priced them through a manufacturer in Mexico. And we actually had a couple of prototypes built in Mexico and the price was down to about 60, 000.

And then more recently we found a manufacturer. in China who has also built two prototypes for us. And their cost is around 25, 000. And finding those good supply chains, good manufacturers, it’s gosh, that’s the cheapest one. That totally makes sense, right? Now we’re doing the dive on what does it cost to ship those units from China.

And what are the trade tariffs and the penalties that we’re going to pay for manufacturing certain things in China? And then comparing that back, how does that overall impact our net price? And what we’re finding, I think, in the long run is [00:31:00] going to be that manufacturing in China and manufacturing in Mexico is going to be very comparable pricing wise the advantage with Mexico is almost everybody that we’ve worked with speaks English.

They’re in the same time zone as us. If I want to go down to the factory, it’s a four hour flight. And it’s very easy to do business in Mexico. And I think that’s something that we’re going to continue to see over the next several years. As this industry gets more globalized is a streamlining of that process.

But the key hurdle on our end still seems to be the regulatory environment in the U. S. And finding units that we can make code compliant, finding units that are still cost effective and affordable and working with reliable partners and manufacturers that are willing to change their product in order to meet those requirements.

Brian Searl: I don’t want to spend too long on this, but I just want to ask a very brief question and then anybody else who has a follow up can. When you talk about those wide gaps [00:32:00] between pricing, between the countries, do you find that there’s actually a difference in quality? 

Zach Stoltenberg: Somewhat I’ll say, what we looked at U. S., of course, they’re sourcing everything from the U. S., so all those products already have an inherent markup built into them. And it only gets progressively worse the further you go into it. The quality is good because we control it. And it’s vendors and suppliers that are familiar with US codes and regulations and in most cases they’re paying a fair wage or prevailing wage.

When we dealt with our different partners in Mexico we’ve visited those factories. We’ve talked to their workers. They’re working, a lot of these, even multiple generations with the same manufacturer, grandpa worked there, dad works there, the kids now work there and there’s, it’s really, almost a big family and most of those employees are very proud of their job and they consider it to be one of the best paying jobs in that area.

And are they making the same wages that we would pay in the U. [00:33:00] S.? No. But they don’t have to because it’s still a very good job in Mexico. In China, there’s definitely A different level of quality but it doesn’t always mean it’s better or worse. What we found most common is just the communication.

The U. S. model is we’re going to build everything perfect. Mexican model is we’re going to, we’re going to build it. And you’re going to tell us what you want to change and we’ll fix anything. We’ll do whatever you tell us to do. The Chinese model is we’ll build it, ship it, and then once you get it, you decide everything you don’t like, and we’ll change it on the next one.

And so it’s just a different process. And I think, going into and managing your own expectations of what it’s like to work in each of those areas has helped us be flexible in navigating those processes.

Miguel Huerta: If I may add something. 

Ruben Martinez: It sounds like too, it’s like there’s a level of, it’d be interesting to see what everybody else thinks. But as I’m [00:34:00] hearing everybody talk to you, there’s a level of the topics and items that we’re discussing are. I think at the basis, fundamentally a industry maturing, right? These types of conversations, these type of holistic thinking, taking a step back, lumping, more strategy together when it comes to supply chain, thinking about project scope, thinking about, international partners.

It’s not necessarily something that was front and center even about 10 years ago, right? So I think What just jumps out as everybody was talking, and I just wanted to put that out there, is that these are really good things for everybody to be talking about and considering, because it also just shows where the industry is at today, and the difference of where it’s at today versus even a few years ago, and I think the topics, being able to think a little bit more holistically, a few years ago, it was definitely more still.

We’re running as fast as we can. We’re creating our own [00:35:00] pathway. We’re, what we’re doing here is different than what’s in the UK or different in what’s in Europe or Australia. We just had a fundamentally different, theme and a brand to what We’re doing here and now the next, I think of everything that we do in the industry is in phases, right?

And the phase that we’re in right now is just different than it was last year. And I think it’s a positive one where the problems that people are solving, the strategy that people are putting together, the complex problems that people are solving are good ones, but it’s definitely a different stage and theme.

And that just really jumped out as everybody was chatting. So I don’t know if that feels safe with everybody or if that was 

Zach Stoltenberg: Different than what people, the only thing I’d countered to that Ruben is, as sophisticated as the industry is becoming with, some of these more established operators and some of the infusion of institutional capital and, streamlining of supply chain and, really good manufacturing partners and nice units and all of this.

One thing that I love about working in this industry is [00:36:00] that. It’s still possible for the average person to get out there and bootstrap too. You don’t need to order an $80,000 tent and, do this major investment. They’re still, there’s still guys like Chris that went out and put a hunting tent up in their backyard and started a business that they’re now making full-time, six years later.

And I like to see the evolution of the industry as a whole but I don’t think that we’ve gotten so stuffy that it’s not still attainable to people, that want to get in and want to get their feet wet and want to start up and, I’m thinking even, some of the best and most established people over the last year or two that I’ve talked with when I talk with them about, tell me your origin story, how’d you guys get started?

And it’s not oh, we started with a plan or we had this big loan or something. It’s what I hear more often is I opened a credit card, we we just started, we just got our feet wet and we made some mistakes and we learned from it and we. We pivoted and we listened to our [00:37:00] guests and we really focused on guest experience as a way to make up for some of our shortcomings with our site or our property or, whatever else it was that was outside of their control.

And as, as much as we are evolving and as sophisticated as we’re getting, I like that this is still, An industry that’s not too stuffy. And it’s still attainable for so many people that just, have a pretty piece of property and a dream.

Brian Searl: Trying to be quiet so somebody else can find you. 

Zach Stoltenberg: I’ll speak to that a little bit. 

Chris Jeub: That’s something that I’m constantly talking with people that have a brand idea or a concept idea. And I do. I just, I’m like, get a site and do it but the other thing too is I always, I find that, and Chris and Angela you’re probably in this group, certain people have the heart of an innkeeper, and and it shows through, and so while they might have A dream, they might have an economic requirement to get some more money off their [00:38:00] land passably or whatever.

At the end of the day what tends to be the common thread of success is they have this heart of an innkeeper that says I really like getting up in the morning and taking care of other people and providing some comfort in an uncomfortable situation. Glad you brought that up Zach, that, that was exactly right.

Brian Searl: You guys are really gonna make me talk, aren’t you? 

Todd Wynne-Parry: No, I won’t make you talk. I’ll say something about that. Because it’s a gift of hospitality, Todd. It’s it was something I, just to get personal, it was something that I didn’t know I really had. I was always an optimist. My wife and I were always hospital people and we enjoyed having people over more than I think most people.

But when we threw our first tent up on Airbnb just to see how it would do, it was after a remodel, we lived in it for a month just to see how things would go. Man, we loved it. Just couldn’t believe how much we got into it. And we discovered that we had this, a gift. I think most people [00:39:00] don’t like people.

But we love people. And then, and then it just grew and grew from there. And and we become more systematized. We become more we chase after other people’s research and the groups like this that, that, that bounce ideas off each other. And and we learn it’s just a learning environment and glamping is, and you mentioned Ruben’s gone now.

He had to go to a meeting, But Reuben mentioned something about how we were talking about things we haven’t even talked about. We wouldn’t even consider take talking about 10 years ago. I chuckled this up like a year ago, six months ago. I said, that’s how fast things are changing. But we’re, it’s a, it’s an exciting, it’s an exciting space to be in.

I I love glamping. And I think that’s the flavor the feeling of all of us here. And all of our listeners, too. The thousands of people watching right now. 

Brian Searl: It’s a fun space Thousands of people? Nobody watches this show. Last week I wasn’t here, probably thousands of people watched the show.

So I have, I’m [00:40:00] curious, do you, for the group do you, Have a sense that obviously there’s room for, and there will be room for, like we saw Hilton and AutoCamp, right? There’s going to be room for these major players to come in, some of these bigger companies. How important do you think that heart and soul of the, I love doing this, is to what this industry is currently and will become?

Zach Stoltenberg: I think it’s everything. Whoever wants to take that. I’ve had numerous clients and folks that we’re working with that, when they started their journey, you do what everybody does, right? I’m going to go see somebody else that’s doing it and hopefully doing it well and see what I can learn from them.

And, I talked to some folks last week that they said we’ve got a beautiful property, it’s it’s in North Carolina, it’s got a half a mile of shoreline on a small lake, and they said, we wanted to look at a lake glamping operation, and so they went down and stayed at [00:41:00] Live Oak in Texas, and they came back with all these ideas of, what they wanted to do.

And when we look at Live Oak, it’s not a huge institutional group. It’s seven cabins on a lake. But it was really well done. And, they had a phenomenal experience and they said, we want to try to bring some of that back with us to North Carolina and create something that’s similar to that.

I’ve had clients that have gone out and stayed in an under canvas or an auto camp, and they said, we want to make sure we don’t do anything like that, that, we, maybe it was managing guest expectations, maybe it was, whatever, but. They had an idea of what that experience was going to be like, and after doing it they felt shortchanged.

And I think that’s the risk when you move to that institutional setting, the, these more established operators, because and they just, they can’t offer the same, experience. It’s, [00:42:00] they don’t have the staff, they don’t have the resources, you don’t have the time to allocate to creating that truly hosted experience.

Now, is it still a better experience than alternatives? Yes, absolutely. And that’s why they’re drawing people in. But I think that’s really where, when you look at some of these small, independent operators that are getting into the space, that’s how they’re going to stay relevant. That’s why Chris has been successful.

It’s not, it’s not because he went out and built. 40 units that were all identical and were 10 feet apart from one another. People have a great experience when they’re there because of him and his wife and the whole, hosted experience that they’ve created. And so I think that piece is really, fundamental to who we are as a, as an industry.

You want to call us an industry? And I don’t think it’s ever going to go away. I think it’s the like we said, I think it’s the heart and soul of what’s here. And it’s what is going to continue to drive people into outdoor hospitality. [00:43:00] 

Brian Searl: Angel, I’m curious about your take on this.

You’re nodding a little bit there, but both from a, both from an ownership perspective and what he’s talking about, but also your franchise model. We can I think, pivoted to that and how you. Plan to keep that. 

Angele Miller: Yes, for sure. And Zach, like I agree with a lot of the things you shared. I think that, for glamping, even the word glamping, people go, they don’t want that, just the basic camping experience.

They’re expecting a little bit of that glamour thing to it. So when they come the connection that you made, that’s what differentiates us also from, let’s say, I just have a cottage. And I’m renting that on Airbnb. People, when they go glamping, they do expect that service, that luxury, all the little details go all the way.

And I think it’s, I see it a lot with all of our customers expectations and that’s what keeps them coming back is all those little details. So for us, for example, even the [00:44:00] mattress, the type of mattress we use, so they have the best sleep. ever, like all these little details inside the glamping unit makes a huge difference.

Like another thing that really for us has separated us and really enhanced our business is the model of offering Local food options. For example we connected with all the local farmers and artists, and then we created like packages of, like a breakfast box that has, local bacon, eggs, sausage, or different things like that.

and we deliver that goes a long way and people love that and I think once we deliver and they see someone and they get that kind of service they love it you know so I think it’s really important and that’s what’s going to help elevate the ones that are truly like that compared to the ones that are more Hotel hotel style that are on a bigger scale that don’t have that lose a little bit of that [00:45:00] type of connection.

For us with the franchise model, that’s what we wanted to create. We really wanted to create an experience. That would really elevate what we’re doing in the glamping industry by offering those packages, adding all those little extra details, even the hot tub, I would say 90 percent of the people that call to book with us ask if we have a hot tub, maybe the cold here in Canada impacts that, hot tubs is always a nice week because when you’re glamping, You’re enjoying the outside.

You really want to elevate your outdoor experience. That’s why you’re glamping. You want to be in nature, right? But you also want to have a little bit of that luxury feel. So in terms like of the hot tub, the barbecue, we elevated the type of barbecue we put out. So when you’re glamping, you’ll have a little bit more time to Take time to make that nice steak, and really maybe learn how to even do that, so we have a lot of people that never really barbecued at home and that’s [00:46:00] a super exciting and fun thing for them, right?

So I think that as things evolve and people get these experience they’ll really pay attention to DD still more than ever and that’s what we, we, our franchise, we want to create, we want to set the standard of that so people the best experience they could possibly have. That they know when they’re going glamping here, that’s the experience that they will be experiencing.

Brian Searl: Why is he not responding? Welcome Alessandro. I feel like we’re gonna have to break this show apart into two different glamping episodes. We’ve got too many wonderful people here and not enough time to talk to everybody, but that’s a logistical problem we’ll figure out later. [00:47:00] Alessandro, we’re having a good conversation just about the differences between, 

Alessandro van de Loo: I can hear you really, a lot of background noise.

Brian Searl: There is background noise from me. Sorry, it’s a little bit windy here. Is that better or no?

Alessandro van de Loo: Better, you guys, or no? Yeah, I can hear you. I can hear you, yeah. 

Brian Searl: Alright we were talking a little bit about just the differences in we’ve got people from Canada and from Mexico and it’s Hekpia, right? Yeah, Hekpia and Hattopia from France. And we were just talking about the different types of, manufacturing opportunities the way people build in different countries, the way people decide what to have at their properties, and how Miguel counsels people from the association standpoint and decides from his resort standpoint.

So I’m curious, I think this would be a good question for you briefly, we only have a couple minutes left. What do you think about all that?

Alessandro van de Loo: Sorry, I’m not sure I heard the question correctly. I still hear background noise, but maybe it’s my problem. 

Brian Searl: It might be your background noise. But let’s yeah, I think it’s you. I’m muting you. We can talk about that maybe next week too. If you can’t get your [00:48:00] background noise fixed.

But does anybody have any final thoughts here? We have about three minutes. Six minutes, 

Todd Wynne-Parry: if they have six minutes, Angele, I would love to hear more about your franchise model. You mentioned it. What, are you building more campgrounds or getting more people to buy into your franchise? What’s that look like? 

Angele Miller: Yes. For us, like on the franchise aspect, we are looking to expand and build more like either that they, we will build more that will be corporately owned, but we’re also looking to partner with other individuals to really create that experience.

Right now we’re looking at doing something in Texas, not too far outside of Austin. And we have Costa Rica, Atlanta that we’re currently working on projects, but our goal is to really help differentiate the glamping model so that, people, when they go there they can trust, they feel great.

They had an amazing experience. And then and then we all help each other. Like we all work together to help elevate this glamping [00:49:00] industry. 

Todd Wynne-Parry: And if I could piggyback on that’s that’s wonderful. I’m more, I’m very interested in you now. Hey, I’m going to mark your page. 

Brian Searl: You do, Can we, do we need influencers in costa Rica? So anyway, 

Angele Miller: Yeah, Brian for sure. We’ll need some influencers. So we’ll definitely talk about that. 

Brian Searl: I just want to, I just wanted to throw that out. 

Todd Wynne-Parry: There’s a My MBA, one of the only things I really remember from my MBA is is this class I took about the life cycle of an industry. And if you look at a graph, in the beginning of an industry, so innovative and so fun and everything’s just, everyone’s just throwing things up against the wall to see if it sticks.

And that’s where we’re at with glamping. As it moves up and becomes standardized, a big thing about franchising is the processes and that you put into place and you craft that burger perfectly, it’s like stealing from Ray Kroc’s McDonald’s franchise and really making that process [00:50:00] happen.

The industry eventually does climb up here. Probably Todd can mention this. It’s up in the hotel motel industry where things are very standardized and very processed and there’s dominant designs that are just, tried and true and no one really deviates from it. And that’s where people, the conglomerates, they buy people up or buy different companies up.

So we’re all on that trajectory. And we’re down here in the creative world and we’re moving up. And that’s why I get Angela. I think it’s, I think what you’re doing, the natural progression is to go to franchising and trying to pull those front, those systems together and make things easier for the business owner.

Food for thought. 

Chris Jeub: Yeah. Angele, I’d like to talk to you more about that as well and maybe offline, in, in the US there’s marketing and licensing agreements and then there’s franchising and they can look a lot alike, but one has a lot less regulatory issues around it and gives you a lot more flexibility.

From a strategy point of view it’s always an interesting question which way do you want to go and what you’re ultimately, what you [00:51:00] ultimately want to to achieve. And Chris, you’re exactly right. We’re at the, we’re at the creative point in the sector. I often compare this to 25 years ago with the Boutique Independent Lifestyle Hotels.

Which had a very unique starting with people that had never been in hospitality before, entering into it, and really moving and changing the entire industry because hospitality and hotels in general they change very slowly. They typically, they change slow because they don’t own the ultimate asset, the big companies, and When they grab a brand or they grab something or whatever, they really only just own the brand part.

They don’t own the bricks and mortar, so it’s hard for them to move quickly. They never do. So you’ve hit on the essence of why I’m here right now with this, in this sector because I enjoy that stage very much and to your question Brian, around big companies bringing small operators, I think, we’re still at a very early stage in terms of educating the customer as well.

And I’m sure all of you that are in the industry are trying to educate your customer [00:52:00] about what their experience is going to be, what they expect and what they can’t expect. And usually when someone has a bad experience, it’s because they’d had a wrong perception of what they were going to have before they got there.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Luckily, the independent lifestyle operators such as yourself, Chris, Angela, and Joe you probably go to great pains to make sure you understand how that goes along. And you’re educating the difference between a bed and breakfast, which has a lot of people and a host experience, but very close.

Sharing bathrooms, sharing ca Always and taking that outdoors. So now it’s detached units, but it’s still that bed and breakfast, a hosted experience. I don’t think that’ll change over time with all of you folks with the bigger institutional brands they have a little bit harder work, I think to educate their customer.

Louis Dupont: Still on mute, Brian.

Brian Searl: Boy, I’m really like, I don’t know how to operate the show. I took a week off and now I forgot everything. I think it’s interesting and I want to hear [00:53:00] everybody’s final thoughts in a second. I know we have only a minute left, so if anybody has to go, feel free to go. But it’s interesting to me, just the different types of experiences, and we talked about this a lot, but I’m learning this from the experiences.

My own experience too. And I don’t admittedly stay in a lot of glamping places on the very limited vacations that I take. And maybe I’ll start, but just from where I’ve gone, but just some of the different experiences that you think. You might not like, and then as a consumer, you experience those and you realize the difference between the corporate, between the mom and pop, between the personal touch and feel, between like in Iceland last September, we stayed in, I don’t want to call it a hostel, but it was just a hotel with five or six rooms, but at a community space where you get together and you had dinner.

And I never would have imagined that I would have enjoyed that. I did. And I’m not saying I’m going to go back to that every time. But it’s just interesting how all these experiences, in addition to the different types of accommodations and landscaping and all that kind of stuff that we talk about, helps bring people back to our industry.[00:54:00] 

So does anybody have any final thoughts before we head off for the week, or we had a lot of people on this week. 

Chris Jeub: Horizon Outdoor Hospitality deserves a nod. 

Brian Searl: Horizon Outdoor Hospitality is our sponsor, that’s the final thought. Good thing Chris is here. So normally we need Horizon, if you’re listening, and hopefully you are, to produce a really cool video for us.

So that I don’t have to talk about all the great things that you do. You can actually show people all the great things that you do. But super grateful for thanks Todd. I think he left already, but thank you Horizon Outdoor Hospitality for being the sponsor for our Glamping episode. We really appreciate it.

For those of you who don’t know, they’re RV parks. Glamping Resort Management Company. They do a lot of great work for operating your campground and all kinds of things like that, and obviously they’re in the glamping space as well but super grateful to have them as a sponsor, and I’ll try to mention them earlier, but I think this is a great discussion.

We have a lot of people still watching live, so Verizon, you’re maybe in the best period for me answering or talking about you at the end of the show, but super grateful to them. Does anybody have any final thoughts before we go for the week? 

Chris Jeub: This is a great [00:55:00] discussion. Really awesome. 

Louis Dupont: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you everyone. 

Angele Miller: Yes. 

Louis Dupont: Very nice. 

Brian Searl: Alright, I’d love to just talk to you guys more. I know we had a crowded show this week, but we’ll as we talk to in more throughout the week, and thank you again Louis, for being our special guest. Super excited to hopefully meet you again. 

Louis Dupont: Yeah, thanks. Thanks everyone. Let me know what you’re in PA If you wanna visit the warehouse and the tiny houses, I’d love to give you a tour. 

Brian Searl: Awesome. Thank you Louis Angel, Alessandro. I know we didn’t get stuck to you either. You showed up late. It wasn’t my fault, man. 

Alessandro van de Loo: No, I wanted to apologize because I had it like in the, on the wrong time in the agenda, I was actually thinking it was going to start now.

So I had one hour. 

Brian Searl: It might not even have been your fault because we like to mess with our time zones over here in the United States and we just changed it, 

Alessandro van de Loo: yeah, and I think that’s the problem, because last time it was at 8pm Dutch time, and now I was still here at 8pm, but next time I will be more careful in checking the time zones before.

Brian Searl: That’s okay, it’s our fault. 

Alessandro van de Loo: I’m sorry. 

Brian Searl: And Chris and Miguel, thank you guys as well. We will see you next week for another episode focused on campground [00:56:00] owners, and we’ll see you guys all back here in about a month to talk more about glamping. Thanks guys. Great, thank you very much. Take care you guys. Bye 

Alessandro van de Loo: bye. 

Thank you for joining us for this episode of MC Fireside Chats with your host Brian Searl. Have a suggestion for a show idea? Want your campground or company in a future episode? Email us at hello at moderncampground. com. Get your daily dose of news from moderncampground. com and be sure to join us next week for more insights into the fascinating world of outdoor hospitality.