MC Fireside Chats – June 4th, 2025

Brian Searl: Welcome everybody to another episode of MC Fireside Chats. My name’s Brian Searl with Insider Perks and Modern Campground. Excited to be here for another episode, our first week of the month of June. It feels like this year is just going crazy fast but excited to see all the kids get outta school and go Camping.

And hopefully everybody has a great season coming up here. So thanks for joining us. For our recurring guest, we have Rafael back from Blue Water. I’ll let you introduce yourself in a second, sir. Simon Neal from Camp Map and Scott Bahr from Carin Consulting Group, as well as a special guest, Jayne Cohen, who I’ve known for only a couple years ’cause you’re so young and new to the industry, Jayne.

But glad to have you here and excited to talk to you about some of the things you have going on, obviously at Campground Consulting Group. And I’m sure there’s a dozen new things since we last saw each other, I think in November that you’ve got your hands in. So excited to talk to you about that.

Let’s go around the room and just introduce everybody briefly who wants to start. 

Rafael Correa: I’ll kick us off. So Rafael Correa, President and CFO of Blue Water. And we are a outdoor hospitality management company and ownership group. And so we own about 12 properties ourselves and we manage a total of about 70 properties, about 60 of which are campgrounds.

The rest are hotels, marinas, and some other attraction type businesses that are ancillary and adjacent. But I’ve been in the industry now going on almost 14 years and been excited to see its evolution and love being a part of it. 

Brian Searl: You’ve been here 14 years, or Blue Water’s been here 14 years?

Rafael Correa: I have been in Blue Water about 14 years. 

Brian Searl: Wow. I didn’t know that. I know that I’ve been here 16 years at, or 17. I don’t know. It gets older every year. Is that your office behind you? Like just your

Rafael Correa: Yeah, this is Blue Water HQ and Ocean City, Maryland. 

Brian Searl: But that’s like your office for Rafael.

Rafael Correa: Yep.

Brian Searl: Geez, man. I must have done something wrong in my 16 years in. Fuck all right. Thanks for being here, Rafael, appreciate it. Scott. 

Scott Bahr: I’m obviously, in a cabin, so yeah, you both got me beat.

Brian Searl: Oh no, I like cabins better. You win. Go ahead.

Scott Bahr: I’m Scott Bahr with Carin Consulting Group. We do market research. I’ve worked in outdoor hospitality for about 25 years that 

Brian Searl: is it. You’re like I do market research. I do that. Me, bro. Is that what that was? I don’t know what that was. What’s that? It’s I’ve been here 25 years. Guys, what are you talking about? Your measly 14? 

Scott Bahr: I know. It’s like you’re in the, you’re teenagers still. It’s come on.

Brian Searl: I’m fine. You can call me a teenager. I’m fine with that. I don’t drink yet. Hair up here. 

Scott Bahr: But yeah. That’s fine. I’m introduced 

Brian Searl: Simon from Camp Map, who has a different background. 

Simon Neal: Yeah. So I’m currently visiting a customer in the US but yeah, the founder of Camp Map, we’re a web platform that helps outdoor hospitality, campgrounds, RV park clamping sites improve marketing and guest experience with professional digital maps.

So we take your traditional PDF map, we make that digital and do all sorts of extra things that help solve your guest problems. 

Brian Searl: Awesome. Thanks for being here, Simon. And last but not least, our esteemed special guest, Jayne Cohen. 

Jayne Cohen: Thank you for that nice introduction and for calling me young. I actually am celebrating my 50th year in this industry. As of January and I’m, 

Brian Searl: How do you do that? And you’re only 27. 

Jayne Cohen: I know. It’s amazing. It’s a trick. But I have been around for quite a while and I love this industry. I’m from, I’m the founder and CEO of Campground Consulting Group. Our sister company is Glamping Consulting Group and we do everything campgrounds, so consulting, operations, marketing, and we love the industry.

Brian Searl: Awesome. Thanks for being here, Jayne. I’m excited to dive a little bit more into your company. Typically what we do, I wanna do first just toss it to our recurring guests, Rafael, Scott, Simon. Is there anything that’s come across you guys’ desk since you’ve been last on the show that you think we should cover? We should talk about? Obviously we’re focusing on industry trends and insights, but really anything is up for grabs. 

Rafael Correa: I saw an interesting post today. I think it was the Baltimore Sun post it on Instagram, but it was in reference to Ray’s Town Lake, in Pennsylvania, the largest recreational lake run by the Army Corps.

Brian Searl: Okay. 

Rafael Correa: And apparently the Camping there is shut down due to staffing cuts related to, the Doge inefficiency efforts. And so they were interviewing some of the local businesses there and they said their Memorial Day weekend was down 40 to 50% from the usual volume of business they saw. Just shows the impact and the potential impact to this if state and National Parks, army Corps, lakes, just the real risk.

And that’s kinda like the first evidence that I’ve seen materializing. And so I just wanted to throw that out there. It was definitely alarming. 

Brian Searl: Yeah. Scott and I have talked about this on Outwired a few times. Like I think back in February we had a discussion about Doge and staff cuts at national parks and things like that. Scott, what do you think? ’cause I know you’ve been tracking this quite a bit with different closures and stuff, right? 

Scott Bahr: Correct. And kinda what we’re seeing is, I would say what we’re starting to see is an enthusiasm gap among potential guests in that there’s this dark cloud hanging over the parks right now.

And I think I saw just before we started here that there’s gonna be over 5,000 layoffs of staff at our national parks. 

Brian Searl: There was something on Woodall’s about that I really should cite Modern Campground, but I’ll give Ben credit. I saw it this morning on his site.

Scott Bahr: So those things, what they do is they we work in an industry that, is it’s recreation, it’s fun and that’s what people want, that’s what they seek. And it’s discretionary spending as well. What you’re seeing, again, I’ll go back to it, a little bit of an enthusiasm gap. I’m not saying that it’s all negative. I’m saying that there, there’s a bit of concern right now and, people’s interest in the national parks is weighing a little bit right now.

Brian Searl: Do we have a sense though, of whether that’s economic, macro or micro or closing of campgrounds or staff shortages or closing of hiking trails like you’ve been tracking Scott? Do we know what that split is? Because it feels like both are happening at the same time? It would be good to get an idea of which is more heavily weighted.

Scott Bahr: It’s a cumulative effect. The economic stuff is less likely to create that that whole idea of, people being negative. Because they understand it, they understand economics, they understand it, especially at the macro level. But what they don’t want is that on the ground experience to be lessened.

If they’re gonna spend the money, if they’re going to go out there and still take that trip, they want that experience to still be the same kind of outdoor emotional connection that they always get. Thus that side of it is weighted more heavily. Thus when with the staff layoffs and such people see, their interpretation is that the experience is gonna be less, it’s not gonna be the same type of experience that they would’ve had in the past, and that weighs more heavily on people’s behavior than actual economics.

Brian Searl: Is it the publicity though, or is it if I think about Raise Town for example, and just the Camping, like Camping being closed is obviously a detriment to people coming to stay there. It would be interesting to see if any private parks in the area had an uptick or whether they just avoided the area altogether.

But is it more of a perception of, I wonder how many people are paying attention to the news on a daily basis, I guess is what I’m trying to say, versus just assuming it’s gonna be,

Rafael Correa: I think it’s interesting. I’ll tell you that, we’re based in Ocean City, Maryland, and we have a lot of hotel and Campground operations right in our backyard, right?

It’s where we started. It’s our home base, the market we know the absolute best and our market, we pull from the DC, Northern Virginia region, we pull from Baltimore, Philadelphia all the way out to Pittsburgh. When we were Pittsburgh’s beach town, and so we have these great MSAs that we service.

And so there was real concern with all the federal government layoffs that they were talking about and all the coming back to the office and everything else that we were really concerned about the market being down, like being significantly down this summer with people just being uncertain about their job security and everything else.

And, the weird part, the unique part, interesting part, whatever we want to call it, it’s been the exact opposite, like this particular market, I am up and up in pretty significant ways which has been shocking to me. But I think it’s also a testament to the affordability of the type of vacation that we provide in the outdoor hospitality, and also Ocean City as a whole, because it’s a blue collar beach town.

And so I think that we’re a drive to market. It’s still affordable. And with the uncertainty, maybe it’s playing to our strength. 

Scott Bahr: I would say that drive to part of the equation is super important. I do think people will be staying closer to home and taking those destinations. It’s got the uncertainty with the longer, bigger trips. So if people are driving to your destination, I think you have a serious advantage. 

Brian Searl: Which is disproportionate. Sorry, go ahead. 

Rafael Correa: I was gonna think that’s right too, Scott, because I’ll tell you that and when I look at the portfolio holistically and I try to slice it up in different ways, the one area where I’m seeing the most pain in the form of bookings being down the same time last year is National Parks and the National Park Drive distance.

One of my campgrounds, the near national park, the average distance somebody drives is 800 miles, average. And it’s down. And so I think that’s the other part is the national parks are usually bucket list trips. Do it once or maybe twice or different areas of it, but you’re not gonna do ’em over and over again more often than not.

’cause you wanna see the other ones and they’re typically gonna be a longer travel for a lot of people. And so I think that’s being reflected in the numbers that I’m seeing is that most of our national park adjacent parks are some of the worst performers being down the same time last year. 

Brian Searl: And if it’s gonna be a bucket list trip, you wanna save it for the best year, you could possibly go to it not win maybe.

Rafael Correa: Yes, it adds that to it too. Yeah. 

Brian Searl: That was when I moved up to Calgary. I came up here during the pandemic and they had the Calgary Stampede, like biggest hugest outdoor show in the world. And they had it put on after the pandemic, but still things were still closed down. And I was like, no, I just wanna wait till next year.

I wanna see it at its best the way the Calgary Stampede should be. And so I think that’s the same type of sentiment there. And the northeast will disproportionately benefit from people staying home. ’cause there’s more population all in a dense area, right? 

Rafael Correa: Correct.

Brian Searl: Jayne, what are you seeing?

Rafael Correa: Atlantic is where we are is wildly densely populated and that’s extremely helpful to these markets.

Jayne Cohen: I think that, so being in this industry for such a long time, I’ve seen the ups and the downs and I feel that during times of economic uncertainty, everything that you all are saying is absolutely true. People, that bucket list trip is usually more time consuming and more money consuming. Right?

It’s more expensive and folks in times of uncertainty, folks are looking for places that are easy for them to go, easy for them to cancel and get their money back. And that is why we’re seeing shorter drives. The 150 miles sweet spot is back. And I think Scott can confirm that for me. But that has that’s similar to 2019. And so this is what we’re seeing. We’re just seeing a shift. And Camping is affordable. When you compare Camping to other types of travel it’s affordable. It always has been. 

Brian Searl: Do they end up in private campgrounds if it becomes an more of an affordability crisis than it is now though? Or do they end up in state parks or be element land or stuff like that? 

Jayne Cohen: I think that state parks have always been attractive because of, usually their locations are fabulous. And obviously the price is a, is generally lower than the private sector, though I have stated some state campgrounds that do compete with the private.

But I do believe that, see, I feel that Camping is less price driven even in today, even today. And it’s more driven by where they wanna go and what they wanna do while they’re at the Campground or RV park and while they’re in that area. Because I think with Camping. You can make your trip fit your budget.

So if you pay a little bit more for the campsite because you wanna be in a certain area, then maybe you don’t go out to eat, as many times. So I feel that. I feel like pricing is not always the case. And I am a camper, and I’ve been a camper all my life, and I don’t think I’ve ever made the choice based on price.

It’s always been like, where are we gonna be? What is our location? How or how close is that RV Park to the highway? That those decisions are much more important to me.

Brian Searl: What do you think it can

Rafael Correa: Jayne money. So, you know, You don’t have to think about that price stuff. So 

Jayne Cohen: Rafael, for those who have known me, they know I’m very frugal. So 

Rafael Correa: I think too, I mean it’s all about value proposition, right? And it’s not just yes Camping is affordable, but the value proposition is huge, right? And so you think about these parks and, yes, you might go eat out less or whatever else, but you’re also maybe getting a water park, might be getting, these other great amenities that, the local Hampton Inns certainly isn’t serving up activities and events and things that, you know, you that.

And so we’ve been hyperfocused on the value proposition. That’s what we wanna make sure people understand is how much you get for what you’re paying. And I think that is resonating a lot with guests.

Jayne Cohen: If I can add to that. 

Brian Searl: Yeah. 

Jayne Cohen: So my in, so I don’t own any parks anymore, but when I did own parks and when I have traveled, it always appears to me that the most expensive sites are always the ones that are booked or harder to get.

And that I believe has to do with value, right? Completely with value. Because for instance, waterfront sites, which are usually the most expensive and the most that that RV park owners amenitize, they’re always booked. They’re tough to get. And that is because of value in my opinion. Because if you went to a hotel and tried to replicate that, the price is going to be at least double. Probably triple. 

Rafael Correa: Yeah, absolutely. It’s a waterfront campsite. Even if you’re paying a hundred fifty, a hundred seventy five bucks a night is still, way better than the Highway Hampton or, Fairfield, you’re gonna stay at. 

Brian Searl: But you’ve gotta communicate that, right? You have to communicate that. And that’s where I think is a big thing for me to emphasize to a lot of Campground out there. Raf at Bluewater, you’ve got a great marketing team. They know how to do this like the back of their hand, right? Not everybody knows how to do that. And so I think there’s a necessity to not just do marketing, but also communicate the value.

Explain what it is, tell the different types of people who would typically come to your park, what you offer, why it’s beneficial to them. Maybe why it’s cheaper, maybe why it’s not cheaper, but why it’s better.

Rafael Correa: Yeah.

Brian Searl: So how do we do that? 

Rafael Correa: I think there’s a lot of different tools to that. And I know Simon’s gonna have some thoughts on this because, his tool that he provides, these Campground owners helps to demonstrate that value in a much more realistic way. When you’re in that buying process. And we’ll talk about booking window, I’m sure, ’cause that’s another variable this year that we’re dealing with.

Our strategy is visual. You gotta feel, you gotta be able to. You gotta be able to put yourself in that position, right? And through all the different channels is so important to us. And so heavy concentration on making sure we have great lifestyle visuals and that we’re constantly building more and better content for the properties.

If you’re not focused on content as a Campground owner, you’re definitely missing the boat because you know that it’s such an experiential travel style, that if you’re not being able to capture that and pitch that to folks and have them put themselves. I always say that if I can see if people can see themselves in the inner tube at my property, like that’s what’s gonna make ’em look right.

If they can see themselves floating in that air tube with a cocktail, they’re in. And I think the other thing you know, there, there’s been a lot published about, it’s this concept of micro, right? It’s not even, you have to get these like people with these gigantic followership. They’re great, right? If you can get them and they’ll move the needle for you.

But, even some of these micro folks that have these little pockets of communities they can reach out to and introduce your assets to and introduce your experience to them. They are even better, right? Than photo and video and really immersing someone in the opportunity, right? They’re actually giving feeling for the experience. That photo and video only goes so far to do. 

Brian Searl: Let’s talk about a couple of these, right? Starting with Simon’s Map, right? Camp Map and Simon, like we, obviously talk about some different things if you have different ideas, but tell people like, this is a key component.

There are other things that we’ll talk about, right? But the map is one way that you can see on your website. You can discover, you can see exactly what you’re getting and how far away it is from a campsite and the value prop and all that stuff. So tell us about that. 

Simon Neal: Yeah, it’s just about going into the mind of your customer or your guest. The more excitement you can build, the better. And the more uncertainty you can bring down, the better. So that’s the two things we work on. So we focus on making our maps really accurate and realistic. So when you look at them, you know exactly what you’re gonna get where things are.

But then you can really drill down into the details and you’ll see site specific photos. What are the bathhouse look like? What does the pool look like? And the more this, really specific information you can feed them. If they wanna look for it, the better it is. People really wanna know what they’re gonna buy, what they’re gonna get beforehand. And if you can provide that you’re gonna do great. 

Brian Searl: Is there any data that you have, Simon, on the, I don’t wanna call it a conversion rate. ’cause I don’t know if you go map directly to booking, although I do know, like you do embed the bookings in the maps, I think, if I remember correctly.

Simon Neal: Yeah.

Brian Searl: But is there any data on how that impacts the overall guest journey to booking?

Simon Neal: What we see is a huge amount of activity before booking. So we typically present our maps on the homepage of our customer’s website. So the guest comes to the homepage, they look around and they go in the map and they spend a long time in the map clicking on everything, clicking on the pool, clicking on the reception, clicking on the sites individually, and it builds up the activity.

And then the final result is, book now, which is inside the map as well. So that’s where we add value, is we provide all that context, the location context, the excitement, reduce the uncertainty, and then you have an immediate route to booking. I think any way you can achieve that is great. But it’s all about, specific accurate information. 

Brian Searl: I wanna come back to you in a second, talk about your US trip, but I want to see if these other guys have any other ideas while we’re on the subject of things that we could use to enhance the value prop, the way we share it, the way we send our messaging, the way we communicate.

Any ideas, guys? Nobody has any ideas really. 

Rafael Correa: I’ve shared my already. 

Brian Searl: Oh, okay. Come on, Jayne Campground Consulting Group. 50 years. You must have like, well, a thousand of them. 

Jayne Cohen: I think that first of all, your websites need to be, they need to show an experience, but they need to give you a feeling. It’s about getting on the website and, how they always say pictures tell you a thousand words or the 

Brian Searl: Yep.

Jayne Cohen: That saying, and that’s I feel that’s what you have to do in your website. Besides the fact that you have to capture them and convert people looking to bookings and that type of stuff. I just feel that you’re, when you go to someone’s website it needs to stand out as an individual and not, because when people are looking to go Camping, they look, in my experience, they look towards an area. This is the area I wanna go, and then they start looking at different campgrounds.

And your experience on the website needs to stick out amongst the others. It can’t be that same look, that same feel that, okay, I’ll give you some pictures, I’ll tell you what my facilities are. I’ll show you, a map and then you can book. It cannot be that old time Campground, website experience. 

Brian Searl: Especially going into a more competitive landscape that generally comes out of a what may or may not be a down economy, right? 

Jayne Cohen: Yes. It needs to be fun and exciting and make me want to go there. 

Brian Searl: But there’s all kinds of different ways to accomplish that, right? Like obviously there’s your, and this is me just putting my marketing hat on for a second.

But there’s your website design and then there are features like Simon’s Map that you can embed in it. There are virtual 360 tours that you can put in. There are pages that you can add that target different personas or demographics or types of people. There are ways that you can, I don’t know, streamline the path to the booking process by focusing on the user experience. Mobile friendliness, responsiveness, photo galleries, like all kinds of things we can do just, and that’s just the website alone.

Obviously there are other ways to communicate your experience, but, so I think there’s a lot of people who overlook their website in this industry. Is that fair? Or am I being too bad? 

Jayne Cohen: That’s very fair. And you know what I think people really overlook, is having professional photos. Like, I think that now since we all have a phone that takes pretty good pictures, right?

We all take our own pictures. So we all have our own drones now when we take our own drones. But still, I see the value in bringing in that professional photographer who really knows how to do it. Sure. Like I and I think you’re saying Sure. But I think a lot of campgrounds try to save the money there on their websites, and I think that’s a mistake.

Brian Searl: I think part of it is they don’t understand how wide and far those pictures can go in the hands of a management company like Bluewater or a marketing company like Insider Perks or you embed ’em on the map for Simon. You put ’em on the website, you put ’em on Google Maps and Apple Maps and Bing Maps.

You put ’em on social media, you put ’em on brochures and flyers at trade shows and RV shows. Like those photos, it’s not just your website. The ROI, there’s crazy on photos. 

Jayne Cohen: Yes. And a photo, as I said before, a photo tells you a lot more than even a blog, right? Because the per, if the person can immerse themselves into that photo or into that video, for me, that’s what’s important.

Rafael Correa: I think. You gotta attack it from both ends, honestly. Like you have to have that professionally curated content that you can use, in the down times that kind of become the framework of your website. But I’m a big advocate of leveraging social media with more, recapping the weekend, right?

Here’s what’s happening at our property. Here’s these great pictures of kids having fun that are unscripted, unproduced, and real, right? And then the other thing that we’ve had tremendous success with that I really recommend it, even if you’re, bad at it, I’d do, is Facebook Lives, right? Facebook lives of the campgrounds is such a valuable way to connect with your audience.

I know Facebook for certain age groups is dead and certain people, but not for our customer, right? For the core of our customer and families and moms, like they are actively on Facebook and the people connect and the beautiful part of our industry, and I always, whenever I’m trying to explain our industry to somebody from not from our industry, is that, imagine, being in a world of hospitality being like that, we get it.

Hotels, there’s resorts, there’s other things out. But what we have is this element of lifestyle, of hobby, of passion, of like the equivalent that people have in a car club of the Corvette Car Club. They love Corvettes, right? And everything in their house is Corvette. Corvette. Corvette. We have that same thing.

It’s just RV life, right? And RV lifestyle. And the ability to tap into that, and people want to know about what’s happening at that property, especially if they had a good time. It’s a great way for them to stay connected and encourage them to come back and book again. And there’s , I think, a nice balance of both produced and unscripted, more raw content that I think creates a nice balance that really brings authenticity to what we do, which is a very authentic experience in and of itself.

Brian Searl: So if I’m an owner out there, and I’m hearing the things like Simon’s Map and the 360 tours and all the things that I just rattled through, and what you mentioned, Rafael, and you mentioned Jayne and Scott, I’m sure you’ll contribute some data in a second. But how do I start, right? ‘Cause if I’m an owner and I’m just trying to, and I’m admittedly don’t own a Campground, I’m not brave enough.

But if I put myself in an independent owner’s shoes, right? It’s different if you have a management company and a marketing team behind you and stuff like that, and I hear we’ll just gather all the photos together and take pictures during the activities. You’re not doing anything else. And then you can post ’em on social media or go on Facebook live on Sunday afternoon when you’re got 30 other things going on around your park. It’s just you and your husband. Where do you start?

Rafael Correa: My experience is that even if you’re an owner of a Campground, and let’s just say you’re not the media savvy person, you’re not the marketing savvy person, right? I guarantee you there’s somebody on your staff that’s their natural inclination.

And you just have to tap into it, right? And let them explore. Let them have some fun with it. The reality is Blue Water, as big as we are today, is is nothing but a collective of incredibly talented people who are doing stuff that they’re passionate about in concert, right? That’s what Blue Water is.

And so if you’re a GM of a Campground and you are slammed and you are truly busy and don’t really have a passion for it, because the reality is if you’re not passionate about it, it’s not gonna ring through true. Then take a survey, go find out. I’m guarantee you there’s a high school or recent college graduate on your staff that does this in their sleep and has a killer Instagram page of their own with beautiful photos and is gonna embrace something like this. And I think, don’t sleep on the talent that’s at your property.

Brian Searl: Jayne, what do you think? 

Jayne Cohen: I completely agree with that, and that’s what we’ve done at the properties that we work with the social media, the Instagram, even the TikTok. That’s not something I’m personally good at. I’m only really on social media and I follow some of my clients’ social media but I know how important it is, and I think it’s best to have somebody who’s super creative and knows how to do these kind of things. And there are a lot of young people out there that love doing it. It’s like a hobby to them.

And if they can turn this hobby into a job, it’s really a fun job for them. The other thing is that I feel that if you are the owner of a Campground, your time is already spent. If you, you’re operating your own park, you do not have the time, even if you have the knowledge, you probably don’t have the time to do a social media or digital campaign for yourself. Because it’s just, if you run activities, you should really have someone out there that’s doing the activities for you.

Because when you’re going to do an activity, it has to happen at that time. And if you’re going to get out there and take videos and post Instagram video, any type of videos, you need to have the time to do that. And you need to be available to be out on your grounds to do that. And I personally worked my campgrounds, boots on the ground for many years and it was impossible for me to be able to do that job well and also do my job well. So I think you really need to dedicate someone to it, and it doesn’t have to be full time. 

Brian Searl: Scott, do you have any data on this over the years that you’ve gathered about how some of this stuff helps people convert more or understand the value or be happier with their experiences or anything like that?

Scott Bahr: Absolutely. What we know is that about, I don’t know, three quarters of campers when they’re looking for a destination, the pictures are the most important consideration. It rises to the top in any of the work we’ve done, especially in recent years. To just put a bow on that, that topic with photography, it’s that important.

Brian Searl: And you can just make ’em up on AI now. 

Scott Bahr: There you go. It’s good. Yeah. 

Rafael Correa: Brian, can we send Simon a new water bottle? That thing looks like it’s seen some things. Hold that thing up, Simon. I need to see that, that bad Boy.

Jayne Cohen: It’s also quite large. 

Simon Neal: Been around a lot of places in there.

Brian Searl: I’m not that bad, but I got some serious dents on the bottom of my, like insulated water bottle from hiking and dropping it on trails.

Rafael Correa: I’ll send you a Blue Water sticker you can put on there. 

Jayne Cohen: Can we switch subjects to something else? 

Brian Searl: We can, I wanted to talk about Simon’s exper. Well, Scott, first were you done? Are we good with your thoughts?

Scott Bahr: Oh, no, that’s fine. I was just gonna add one more thing to the content is to think of it in terms of is your content active or static? And that to me is, people seek something active content. 

Brian Searl: Yes, the answer is we can switch. But I wanted to ask Simon real quick about his, not about this, but about his experience so far in the States and what some of, or some of the things you’ve seen when you come over here and toured all these different campgrounds. Just second trip, right?

Simon Neal: Yeah. Second trip in three weeks. So yeah, I’m over here doing proof of concept, which is a different topic, but it’s been really interesting ’cause I’ve been Camping my whole life. We’re based in Europe and the majority of our customers are still there. We’ve seen hundreds of campgrounds in detail. The good, the bad, and the ugly.

So now I’ve been into four campgrounds in the last two and a half weeks. It’s really interesting to see the difference between Europe and the US. So I can talk a bit about that, if that’s interesting. 

Brian Searl: Yeah, I’d love to hear it. 

Simon Neal: Okay. So first I’ll start with what’s similar, the same. So I think, the experience of arrival check-in is actually very similar.

Like I think the campgrounds I’ve been in, it’s been done very well. It doesn’t feel any different whatsoever. You got the same sort of material, you’re presented with a reception, the same sort of experience, communication with the staff and, getting to your site also very similar, so that no difference whatsoever. You can walk from one to the other.

Something that’s slightly different is obviously the site layout. So what is very significantly different is the, it’s heavily focused on RV sites. What I’ve seen so far, so in Europe it’s maybe 50 50 split between tent sites and RV sites.

And what I’ve seen here, it’s almost like 90% RV, 10% tent sites. So that has a knock on effect to all the amenities and stuff we’ll come back to. But in terms of the quality of the sites themselves your hookup stuff, your electricity, your water, your sewer, how they’re presented, the landscaping, the grass, the fences, that’s all pretty similar actually.

So I think the presentation of sites, the landscaping is all pretty similar, but the site shapes, the distribution of site types is totally different. And I think the knock on effect of that and the amenities, so if you talk about like toilets, bath houses, showers, like in European camp sites, that’s like a major thing you have to have, because the majority is tent sites.

So they need to go to the toilet somewhere, they need to go for a shower somewhere. And it has to look brilliant. It has to be super clean, it has to be super tidy, it has to be big. You have to have 20 showers. So that’s totally different. Like I’m looking around, I can’t find a toilet or there’s a key code to get in the shower because there’s only one or two of them. It’s very different. But again, the quality maybe not quite there. Similar, I’ve been in some pretty good campgrounds, so I dunno about the rest, but there’s a big difference there.

The final, let’s talk about other amenities, like pools, stuff for kids, playgrounds. I would say that’s also pretty similar. It’s paid attention to, they’re good. There’s lots of space for other activities. So I’d say on that level it’s pretty similar.

And the final one, which Brian brought up is the cabins. So there’s one behind me. Very different. Like I think the size is bigger, but the internal layout, the use of space, the thought for experience in the cabin is nowhere near the same.

Like I was in one two weeks ago and there’s nowhere to hang your clothes up or put your clothes. It’s okay, I’m gonna come in with my big rock sack for two weeks stay, and where do I put it? There’s nowhere there. Like the kitchen, living room area, huge bit of white space in the middle with nothing in it.

What I do there, I’m not gonna stand up in that space and spin around. It’s just wasted space. So I think definitely a bit behind on cabin design and presentation of experience of cabins. Maybe that knocks on a bit to the glamping stuff. I think Europe is definitely leading the way a bit there as well.

Brian Searl: What do you think? 

Rafael Correa: I think you’re right, Simon, I’ll tell you that. And because we have a sister company called Great Outdoor Cottages based in Delaware that builds cabins. And, the evolution of cabins is moving in the direction of Europe and a much more, I mean, it’s 400 square feet in a park bottle, right?

So you gotta be smart with it. But, I agree with you that a lot of the more classic designs have fallen short on efficient use of space more often than not. Like you said, that hanging thing is like a notorious thing in a lot of park models. It’s really obnoxious or a place to put your suitcase, right? People forget, we’re catering to a different customer, not an RVer.

Simon Neal: Yeah. 

Rafael Correa: So there’s a lot of those annoyances, but I can tell you that space is evolving rapidly and the design quality is getting up there, in my opinion, with some of the stuff that I’ve seen in Europe. Because I do agree that design is prioritized in Europe, almost in any scenario, right?

The cars, whatever, it’s so much more thought put into it, but I think that’s honestly getting elevated. And if you look at some of the newer product that’s hit in the market from, Capco from us at Great Outdoors and some of the other people that are out there, much better stuff now than ever.

Brian Searl: What’s one of the most interesting ones that sticks out in your mind, Simon, of a way that, like a cabin in Europe that you’d see more places than just one, right? Not something really unique, but has made an efficient use of that space. Is there a way you can like, help us visualize it?

Simon Neal: I think it’s like nothing is wasted, like the economy and efficiency. What something is pushed to the limit. So if you go in the master bedroom, there’s enough space to get around the bed on either side, but that’s it. Okay, you’re gonna have a cupboard to put your clothes and everything else, but there’s no space for hanging out there.

You’re gonna go there, you’re gonna sleep, you’re gonna wake up, your change, go out. So here, there’s plenty of space to walk around and it’s just, you don’t need that. It’s a cabin. You go that sleep. I think that’s one big thing. And use of height, thinking three dimensionally. Bunk beds.

Okay, we have bunk beds here as well, but you can arrange ’em differently and fit three in one room instead of two. So I think it’s just these small things of really being efficient with the space. And then the other big one is design quality materials. People are coming in and out every couple of days.

They’re bashing their stuff, suitcases on the walls, on the cabinets. They need to be tough to stand up to that. And it needs to look good season after season. 

Brian Searl: Okay. Scott, anything to add, or, I don’t wanna leave you out of it there. I don’t know what you can talk about with data if, unless you’ve. 

Scott Bahr: We don’t really get into the cabinet design thing too much in our research. Mostly the actual amenities we’ve looked at that. But other than that, and especially cross-culturally, we haven’t really done any measurement there. 

Brian Searl: It would be interesting to see if the desires of the American consumer are the same as the desires of the European consumer. I’m all for efficiency of space. I’m all for, obviously putting thought into the design and the considerations of even as simple as putting your rucksack somewhere. But does the average American consumer who would come to a typical private Campground want that? Or do they want a twirl around the living room? I don’t know. Somebody should ask.

Rafael Correa: It’s the historical cabin that you’ve seen here, and even some of the ones today, we’re still big we got a lot more space to work with over here than they do in Europe, and so we tend to spread out a little bit. But, I think the trend is moving in this country towards efficiency, and living efficiently and being someone who’s conscientious of the space and resources that they’re consuming.

And so that’s why I say there’s a marked shift in the manufacturing that’s happening right now. Thinking about being generally more sustainable. But the historical tendency is exactly what Simon’s talking about. A room where you can spin around in and why. But I think it’s also generally because our homes we’re trying to replicate the comforts of home.

Brian Searl: Yeah.

Rafael Correa: In a tiny little cabin. And we always anticipated that what as an American consumer, that’s what we’re trying to create.

Brian Searl: Okay. Jayne, what did you wanna 

Jayne Cohen: I think people like small spaces, if they don’t feel like they’re in a box hence the trend towards tiny homes, which are really just most cases, smaller park models. But I also do feel that folks don’t wanna feel like they’re in a small box.

So if we can build things, efficiency, but still give them maybe, the ceiling’s a little bit higher or the roof is a little bit higher, because that gives them a feeling of they’re in a bigger unit with more space. But in reality, it really is condensed. 

Brian Searl: Do we want them inside though? 

Jayne Cohen: No.

Brian Searl: Don’t we want them outside?

Jayne Cohen: We don’t want them inside. But at the end of the day, a camper that is staying with you at the end of the day is sleeping in that unit and spending, a significant amount of time in that unit. They’re sleeping there. Virtually half the day and they’re probably cooking food in there.

And they’re also, what becomes important about a rental is not just the rental itself, it’s also the outside of the site and how is the outside of the site designed. But they’re on that site, let’s say at least half of the day, right? Or even more between the rental and the site. So I feel that whole experience collectively as to the inside of the unit and the outside of the unit, we all know that outside living is very big right now.

Outdoor kitchens, at homes. Everyone’s putting an outdoor kitchen in virtually. So these type of outdoor amenities and upgrades to the site, whether they be on every single site or only on some sites, but definitely on your rental units, especially your more luxurious ones. I feel that’s equally important, the outside living aspect.

Brian Searl: Yeah. And I’m just playing devil’s advocate, right? I’m not saying I believe or don’t believe that I don’t enough data on whether it should be bigger or smaller or how much time they’re spending inside, but I generally think, if you expand it to the whole site design, that’s obviously way more important, right?

The KOA patio sites, with the way they put the thought into those designs, but just the outdoor area, the patio, the patio furniture, is what I was gonna say, sorry, it escaped me for a second. But the fire pit and the amenities and how that’s designed and how they can spend time outside and yeah I think it’s the thought that counts. Is that too cheesy? Can I say that? 

Jayne Cohen: No. Yeah, you could say that. It is. And also a lot of times we do something outta site or anything within our Campground, and I feel like it’s really important to use that amenity or use that facility or use that Campground yourself that I’m sorry, that rental yourself, right?

Brian Searl: Yeah.

Jayne Cohen: Like for instance, we all buy mattresses or we all buy beds. If my husband is six foot two, is he comfortable in that shower? Are his legs sticking out over that mattress? So like that type of comfort too.

Brian Searl: And those are the easy ones, but also you should probably spend a couple nights in the bed to see whether your lower back begins to hurt, right?

Jayne Cohen: Yeah. Because if I’m a camper and I’m renting and I’m not getting any sleep and I feel awful by the time I leave, I think, those type of things are very important. And I think we overlook it often because we don’t actually use our own shower that the campground’s using or use the laundromat.

And I think if you did that, you’d be like, oh, we need a hook here, or we need a bench here, or, that type of thing. 

Brian Searl: Scott, do you have any data on the outside? 

Scott Bahr: On the outside is as Jayne mentioned, this is something that more and more people are asking for. The outdoor cooking areas, the outdoor areas to hang out. They’re less inclined to wanna be inside. So I was saying when you were talking about the the size of the cabin I was thinking of like Frank Lloyd Wright and how he designed his.

Brian Searl: I’ve been in a couple of his houses. Yeah.

Scott Bahr: He would, purposely put a lower ceiling in part of the room to force people into the middle. So they would socialize more. And it’s like that, like where do you want the people to be? The other part of that is, I remember doing focus groups with some RVs once, and I asked for a new RV or what size should they think of getting? And this one person said it depends on how well you get along with your travel companions.

That was his gauge was, if you get along with your travel companions, it doesn’t matter. But the idea is that, again, depending on where you’re at, but people rather go outside, this isn’t supposed to be an awkward experience. So whatever you could do to get them outside and as a Campground owner or manager for you, it’s your benefit for them to be outside too. ‘Cause you think the more they’re inside, the more the wear and tear on the inside. 

Brian Searl: But they’re also gonna associate it with a hotel experience. 

Scott Bahr: And if they’re inside. Exactly. Now you know you’ve lost your differentiation. And again, I just presented some information on it’s RVs, but it’s similar that what’s most important in the design of an RV, and what people want is right near the top of importance is to have outdoor cooking and entertaining areas. Like even in some of the RVs now they’re putting like big screen TV on the side of the RV outside.

Brian Searl: Yeah.

Scott Bahr: So you can turn in the canopy and.

Brian Searl: That’s what was going through my head when Jayne was talking about you can

Rafael Correa: People watch the outdoor channel while you’re at the Campground.

Scott Bahr: Yeah. Like you can go to Zion and.

Brian Searl: At least you’re outside, right? Like at least you’re outside to Scott’s point, like it’s a difference maker. It’s I’m gonna remember watching TV outside of my patio next to the campfire more than I am, and I’m gonna be able to disassociate that or differentiate that, I guess from a, hotel stay differently. I was thinking about that when Jayne was talking too. Like the TV outside the flip open, like you have on some of the RVs where you can just cook on a like a Coleman Grill type appliance outside. Heck you even put a gimmick in when they try to go back inside. It like pops out a beer from the side and you’re like, are you sure you don’t go inside? You know the other, so your recommendation that got is we need to lower the ceilings to loft height on the entire cabin and make them crawl through it, so they wanna be outside. 

Jayne Cohen: The other thing is the social experience of being outside. And I feel like this extends and when I asked to change the subject, this is what I wanted to change it to.

I think this extends to, the relationship experience because campers have always been big on that. And now where half of all reservations are being done online, rather than someone on the phone. And we’re using Gates and Advanced check-in online, so you don’t even have to stop at the office anymore.

I think it’s more important than ever for the staff and the managers to be present outside on the Campground on the grounds and introducing themselves to campers and welcoming them to campers. It doesn’t necessarily have to be a check-in because I think it’s great now that, we can have a 300 site park and we can check people in on a Friday night pretty quickly, right?

Because everybody’s paid in advance. They’ve already checked in, their license plate is registered in the gate, so they can go right through, and so forth. I think that’s wonderful. And I think guests, especially the younger generations, love it. But, we cannot forget that we are in the outdoor hospitality business.

And if you’re gonna operate that way with all the latest technology, again, I think it’s wonderful. But by doing that, you lose some of the hospitality aspects of the business. And I think that is still very important. 

Brian Searl: I’m gonna play devil’s advocate again and say, I don’t know that you’ve lost it. I think it wasn’t there in a lot of places to begin with. Because, and I’m not just talking about outdoor hospitality, I’m talking about hotels too. It’s still if I go to a hotel on a business trip, it still amazes me when I am that Marriott Platinum member and the manager writes me a handwritten note on a card, right?

So I think for sure, you’re absolutely correct. That should be done and should be done more. I don’t know if we’ve lost it. I think we just need more of it. 

Rafael Correa: And hopefully, by reducing the friction of a check-in, like you’re talking about Jayne of time, which yes, those were touchpoint, but they were also not necessarily value add touchpoint. That time can be refocused on value add touchpoints. 

Jayne Cohen: Yes. 

Brian Searl: Yeah. 

Jayne Cohen: Because I think that’s the big difference between a regular hotel and even, in our campgrounds or our rental units, is that personal relationship experience and factor. And it’s like when you walk into a restaurant that you’ve gone to a few times and the owner is like, Hey, how you doing? Welcome back dah da.

Brian Searl: Going through the table. Yeah.

Jayne Cohen: That makes you feel special, right? As a person that makes you feel special. And as a human being, that’s human nature. And if we can take, you should be doing that at your Campground level. I think that’s when you do guest surveys, there’s things that are important to people.

There’s things that everybody wants to see and that you have to have, right? Like good water, electric sewer, good wifi. But then there’s things that are really high importance and meeting the manager, or meeting the staff or feel like they’re cared about. That’s very high level. Touchpoint that is hospitality. And I think that whether Brian, people did it before or whether they’re doing it less, whatever the reason that they’re not doing it, they gotta start doing it. 

Brian Searl: Yeah. And to your point, like there’s prop to Rafael’s point, sorry, there’s probably somebody in your staff who, if you don’t like to be the cheery person, you’re the grumpy Brian.

Which is why I don’t run a Campground. Find somebody in your staff who has that talent, who’s super happy and cheery to go around. Not to be annoying, but to be friendly and personable and whatever. It’s always better to meet the owner, but it’s better to meet any staff member who looks like they care and ask about what your experience is and all that stuff. Period.

Scott Bahr: Absolutely. And we have the data to back this up too. You always ask about if we have data, we actually have it. Several years ago when we did Campground level surveys with KOA, this was one of the most important considerations, is meeting with the manager. That was a question we asked, did you meet with the manager or owner or whomever?

And what we found was that if it was a memorable experience, the person, we measured net promoter score, NPS, it would increase by at least 15 points if they had that, and that’s.

Brian Searl: Massive.

Scott Bahr: Above and beyond everything else. Like you were, Jayne, you were talking about the amenities, all that stuff. This is what brings them back. This is what it’s really all about. ’cause you said it’d be great, we’re in hospitality. This is hospitality. And if you do that, it’s the key to your success.

Brian Searl: It’s the lowest hanging fruit too of all the things.

Scott Bahr: Absolutely.

Brian Searl: We talked about on having cabins that are designed more efficiently to make the guest feel better, of having the outside be better designed, of having amenities, of the differences between Europe and the United States, of all the things, the lowest hanging fruit is to go out and say hi.

Rafael Correa: Absolutely.

Jayne Cohen: And it’s the least expensive. It’s the least expensive thing to do. 

Scott Bahr: Yep.

Rafael Correa: It’s a question of effort. And I’ll tell you that as somebody who’s bought a number of campgrounds and over the years is that one of the things that I pay attention to is the relationship between the Campground owner and the guest that’s there, right? How intimate is that relationship? Because that’s a risk, to me to replace that.

Jayne Cohen: Yes.

Rafael Correa: Because I’m extremely proud of how Blue Water delivers a very high level of guest service at across such a large portfolio. But can I ever replicate what a single owner operator does that’s on that property every day, grinding it out and engaging with guests like that is virtually impossible to replicate.

And I don’t care who you are. I think we get as close as humanly possible at scale. And the reason for that is ’cause we at Blue Water have the most incredible core of general managers, I think, that exist in the industry, and they make or break our properties.

And we could be the best management company in the world. And it doesn’t matter if you don’t have an engaged GM who’s out there leading a team and being a. 

Jayne Cohen: Role model. 

Rafael Correa: Yeah. Being an ambassador, for the property to all the people that come to visit. And there is no way to set a hook deeper, right? Using a fishing analogy appropriate for Blue Water, than for a GM to engage with a guest in a meaningful way. 

Jayne Cohen: And what else is that, when your guest is getting that, when you have blemishes and we all have blemishes, right?

Rafael Correa: Nobody’s perfect. 

Jayne Cohen: They’re way more forgiving about blemishes, and I’m sure Scott, you’ll support me that first time guests are more critical than repeat guests, would be my guess. And because they know our blemishes and they have like their sunglasses on they’re feeling so good about being there, that if something’s blemish, they can ignore it. It’s not as important to them. It doesn’t ruin this.

Rafael Correa: Well, it’s really opposite. Because what happens is when things go wrong and you address it and address it the right way. Now you’ve built trust.

Jayne Cohen: Exactly.

Rafael Correa: Right. And once you have trust, then you have a guest for life. And that’s what I think is the most important factor here. Quite frankly, I finished reading a book not that long ago called The Obstacle is the Way. And it’s really talks about embracing the challenges that you’re facing and changing the light in which you see them and how you address them. And the reality is that when things go sideways, that’s an opportunity. That’s an opportunity to gain a customer for life if you handle it the right way. 

Brian Searl: But it should be your second opportunity. ’cause your first one, if you had gone and talked to that person when they checked in and wave hello to them, they’d be much less likely to be scream at you in the office.

Rafael Correa: Yeah. Yeah. You would be a person to them, not just somebody. 

Jayne Cohen: And they’re much more open to giving you constructive criticism. 

Rafael Correa: Yeah. 

Jayne Cohen: That’s valuable.

Rafael Correa: Yeah. That you can actually benefit from. 

Jayne Cohen: My husband is one of those that if he has a bad meal at a restaurant, he won’t say anything. He’ll still leave a good tip, but he’ll walk out and he’ll say I’ll never go there again. And I always say we always used to own our own businesses. Wouldn’t you rather have been told about that problem so you could fix it? And I think most people are more like my husband. That they’re gonna walk out and just not come back. That’s not what I want as an owner. I want to be able to have a dialogue with that camper or that guest, good or bad. Especially in the bad case, because I wanna correct it. 

Scott Bahr: Absolutely. And it was just mentioned a moment ago about establishing that rapport upfront. That’s why it’s so important to do that. ’cause that person, like your husband who, you know if he has skin in the game, so to speak, which is I have a relationship with these folks, he’s much more likely to say, Hey, your meal today just didn’t bring it. Versus, eh, just not gonna do it again. ‘Cause you don’t have any kind of relationship. There’s no connection there.

Brian Searl: Yeah. It’s the unknown too. You don’t know how they’re gonna react to you, whether you’re gonna waste your time or you’re gonna sit there waiting to talk to the owner for 10 minutes by the counter while the staff gets him, or if he’s even gonna come out.

So like that if you remove that unknown because you already have met the owner or whatever you care, or you’ve been there multiple times and that’s a whole different thing. What are you seeing, Simon, on your travels in the US as far as hospitality goes and how is it different than Europe or is it the same?

Simon Neal: Yeah, I mentioned with the check-in experience, that was the main touchpoint for me. And that was all the same. It was all good. Very impressive, easy, nice engagement. How are you doing? Do you need help with anything? I haven’t had really any contact beyond that, but it’s also a bit different because I’m not a paying guest. I’m here helping out working, but I think it’s similar and I think the level is pretty good. 

Brian Searl: Do they tend to come around the campsite in Europe to greet people or. 

Simon Neal: Certainly not a GM. No way. I’ve never seen a GM ever in all my time. I think the main touch points you have are any amenities, shop, stuff like that, or the children’s entertainment.

Team are around the Campground all the time. They’re engaging with the parents, you wanna come this activity? And that’s the main interaction, I would say then. But no, I’ve never had a manager come around and, Hey, how are you doing? What’s your feedback? Yep. 

Brian Searl: I think that just goes to show how impactful that could be though. Whether it’s in Europe or the United States, or a handwritten card or whatever. But yeah, it’s.

Jayne Cohen: I think it’s extremely impactful. 

Brian Searl: Yeah. No argument here, Jayne. Yeah. All right. We are running out of time here. So final thoughts from everybody? Jayne, you wanna go first? 

Jayne Cohen: I just wanna thank you for inviting me to be a guest. This is a first time experience for me, and it was fun and I learned from it, and so I’d be happy to come back again. 

Brian Searl: Is it really your first time on the show? 

Jayne Cohen: Yeah, it’s my first time. And I’ve known you since you entered the industry. 

Brian Searl: Interesting. We’ll blame Sharah for that one. She’s listening. She’s a real person. That’ll prove it. Simon, final thoughts? I’m kidding. Sharah, by the way. 

Simon Neal: No, I think it was just a nice discussion today. Nice to catch up with everybody and yeah, industry wide, I think it’s all quite positive at the moment from what I can feel. 

Brian Searl: Awesome. Thanks for being here Simon. And where can they find out more about Camp Map?

Simon Neal: Yeah, campmap.com. Pretty easy. All information there to get in touch with us or a search on LinkedIn, things like that. We’re easy to find.

Brian Searl: And Jayne, I forgot to ask you wanna share where they can find Campground Consulting Group? 

Jayne Cohen: Right there. campgroundconsultinggroup.com. 

Awesome. Rafael. Final thoughts.

Rafael Correa: My word of the season is cautiously optimistic.

Brian Searl: That’s everybody’s word. Come up with a new word, man. That’s the RV industry’s word too. 

Rafael Correa: Yeah. So I’m really hopeful that we see a good season, figure out what our new baseline is. I’m excited. The Blue Water team has never been more aligned and ready to embrace the year as a team.

So we’re super excited across our entire portfolio, across the country. Encourage you to come visit any one of our properties. You can find our website. It’s www.bwdc.com. Yeah, that’s where I’m at and thanks for having me on again, Brian. I love being here.

Brian Searl: Yeah, thanks for being here. Rafael, and Scott, last but not least. 

Scott Bahr: Yeah, look for some new data to be coming out in the coming days. On attitudes, behavior, what’s going on. I look forward to the rest of the summer. We’re, that’s gonna be coming out via the KOA channel. They sponsored this research. So they would say, just keep watching on LinkedIn is usually, one of the better places to see those releases. You can always go to my website, which is carinconsultinggroup.com. We have a resource library that we try to post a lot of the reports that come out that we do, the ones I’ve done with Brian, as well as the ones with KOA. So that is my final thought. 

Brian Searl: Awesome. Thank you guys for being here for another episode of MC Fireside Chats. If you’re not sick of tired of hearing of me, and Scott, yet we’ll be joined by our fellow co-host Greg Emmert. In about an hour here, a little bit less for Outwired. We’re gonna be talking about the future of PMS software and marketplaces and how those are gonna change and whether you even need ’em at all in a future where AI’s gonna book everything for you.

And then we’ll talk about photos and videos and how everything’s not real and it’s fake any, and you have to pay attention to that as a Campground owner. So interesting discussions on Outwired later if you’re not sick and tired of us. Otherwise, we’ll see you next week on MC Fireside Chats. Thanks guys. Appreciate you. 

Rafael Correa: Alright, bye.

Simon Neal: Bye-Bye.

Jayne Cohen: Thank you.

Scott Bahr: See you guys.