MC Fireside Chats – June 19th, 2024

This is MC Fireside Chats, a weekly show featuring conversations with thought leaders, entrepreneurs, and outdoor hospitality experts who share their insights to help your business succeed. Hosted by Brian Searl, the founder and CEO of Insider Perks. Empowered by insights from Modern Campground. The most innovative news source in the industry.

Brian Searl: Welcome everybody to another [00:01:00] episode of MC Fireside Chats. My name is Brian Searl with Insider Perks. Super excited to be here with you all. We’ve got a bunch of special guests today, some good content. We’re talking about a normal campground owner focused show. So we’ve got a couple of recurring guests who are in planes, traveling around the country, doing important things.

I’m the only one who’s here every week. Cause I have nothing literally to do, but prepare for the show. So super excited to be back with you guys. Again it’s bright outside. Hopefully you can hear me. We had all kinds of mic problems last week, but and I’m wearing a hat because, well, for one of two reasons.

Either I got a sunburn last week or I’m bald and the light glares off my head. I’ll let you guys guess which one. Please don’t tell them. These guys know what really is the truth. It’s the sunburn. Okay. So thanks for being here, guys. We’ve got Scott McGee from Rome America. We’ve got Joe Moore from Morris Campgrounds Consulting.

Second time with Joe, a longtime industry. Expert and super excited to hear his opinion, but hopefully we have his audio this time. And then we have Rachel Williamson, who’s the new marketing guru of all things from KCN [00:02:00] Campgrounds, who’s temporarily maybe replacing Nate? We’ll see. Nate’s got a lot of things going on, so you’re busy running all that amazing stuff over there at KCN.

Although, what does that say about you, Rachel, that you have to be here and he’s too busy? We won’t explore that. We won’t explore that. Nevermind. Okay. Do you guys want to go around and introduce yourself real quick? We’ll start with Scott. 

Scott McGee: Yeah. Hey, thanks Brian. Happy to be on the show. My name’s Scott McGee.

I’m the VP of operations for Rome America. We are a new group of campgrounds operating in the Lake Powell, Arizona, up to Salt Lake City region. And then we have a property also on the Oregon coast. So we’re really We’re trying to bring modern camping to the masses with our Rome America brand. And yeah, so we’re excited to be here.

Excited to talk to everybody. I’ve been in the industry for about 10 years. And so I think I bring a lot of insight. 

Brian Searl: But Modern Camping, not Modern Campground, because that’s already trademarked. 

Scott McGee: Yes, yes, yeah, we’re [00:03:00] gonna 

Brian Searl: Not really trademarked, but now I think I might have to trademark it. You’re making me nervous over here, Scott.

I already filled out the forms. Oh, can I say fuck? Oops, oops. Joe, we’re not censored by the FCC here but go ahead and introduce yourself. Please try to keep the swearing to a minimum.

Oh, and by the way, I forgot, wait, Joe’s going to start talking over me.

Joe Moore: I don’t want anybody to say 

Brian Searl: See, I told you he was going to start talking over me. Joe is on a delay, so we just want to make sure everybody knows that Joe can hear us, and he’s a super quick, sharp witted guy. I’ve met him in person, I vouch for him completely, but he is on a delay, so that’s why there’s a little bit of a lag here.

So Joe, go ahead, sorry.

Joe Moore: Well, the fact that I’m a Texan and we talk a little bit slower does not have anything to do with it. So, what, a pilot?

Something like that. But yeah, thanks Brian, for having me on the show. I’ve my career started [00:04:00] back in 2002. Ran a campground for 12 years. And then got out of that business, retired municipal worker. And taking, you know, my training from Campground Management School and my experience running a campground, turning it from nothing into something and, you know, winning some awards, state and national awards with the park.

Felt like I was still young enough. I wanted to get out there and help other people and that’s what I do. I help people to buy, sell, develop, consider, assess train people parks all over the country and into Canada. So, I’m there to help out if you’ve got problems. I can help you direct you to marketing.

I can help you redesign, expand, or develop parks, buy a piece of property, find out whether it’s good enough or not. So glad to be here. Glad to join in the conversation. 

Brian Searl: Awesome. Excited to dive into that with you, sir. Rachel from KCN. 

Rachel Williamson: I’m Rachel Williamson with KCN Campgrounds. I’m their [00:05:00] Marketing Manager.

And KCN is all about providing exceptional hospitality to their guests. 

Brian Searl: So tell us, let’s start with you just because you’re last but not least here, but you’re right in front of me. So talk to us a little bit about some of, before we get to KCN, your history in the campground space, if you want to Touch on that.

Rachel Williamson: Yeah. So I have 10 years of history working in the campground industry through KOA Corporate. So lots of time seeing all the different layers and working with several different campgrounds on their different opportunities for marketing and making tailored marketing plans to their campground to ensure that they have the most success.

Brian Searl: So you made the jump here now to KCN, right? What, what do you feel like the main mission is to accomplish at KCN and how does that. differ from your role that you had before? 

Rachel Williamson: The main role with KCN would be to ensure that each of our campgrounds has that tailored marketing plan, to really make sure that each campground has the opportunity to flourish and really [00:06:00] shine, and really making sure that we’re reaching out and showing the really niche and special campgrounds.

personality of each campground and that differed from my role with KOA, because when I worked with KOA, I was working on a franchise level, so I worked with all 450 franchise locations across the portfolio, which made it a little bit difficult to get in with every single one of them, and specifically, yeah, yeah and specifically I worked with the acquisitions, so I had time to dive in with all our new campgrounds to make sure we’re setting them up for success before they had their years of experience under the belt.

Brian Searl: Okay, very cool. So KCN this is something that struck me about the, the, the KCN organization the first time I think I talked to them at maybe the KOA convention two years ago, I think was the first time we met in person, at least. I had talked to Nate before then, and that’s kind of something that really stood out to me was the fact that, and I know there are other groups like this, right?

But they really put an emphasis on communicating the story, the team, [00:07:00] the feel, the, you know, making sure that every, I don’t want to say every, right, because nobody’s perfect, but a lot of the details are paid attention to and that they’re really kind of focused on the entire guest experience versus just, let’s get them in and out of the door and make money.

Is that fair? 

Rachel Williamson: Yeah. One of my favorite things about KCN is how focused we are on the guest experience, ensuring that the guests have a wonderful time from start to finish and really taking the time to examine what that customer journey is and ensuring that whether they’re just visiting our website and checking us out or whether they’re coming to stay on the campground, they have a great time working with us.

Brian Searl: Okay, cool. We’re going to talk more about KCN, but since you’re our recurring guest now, we’re going to try to give Scott and Joe a little bit more time here. So Scott, does Rome America also care about your guests or is that just KCN? 

Scott McGee: I think KCN’s just the only ones out there. No I wanted to actually just echo what Rachel said.

I mean, guest experience is the most important part of what we do and you know, I’ve [00:08:00] been looking at it a lot as you gotta pull off that experience word. So at Rome, we’re really focusing on, The experience side of camping guest experience. Yes. We want to be hospitable. We want to take care of everybody, but we want them to remember the experience.

Experience new things, be closer to nature. So that’s kind of how we focus on the guest experience at at Roam America is, you know, from a hospitality standpoint, we tell our people we’re, we’re not running a camping operation, we’re running a hospitality organization. And so I think from the top down, we approach it that way.

But then we also focus on the physical experience that people have. We make sure that our properties are located in places where That’s You’ve got vast views of the beautiful Arizona desert you’re right on the river when you’re camping in one of our glamping tents, so we really try to key in on the resources of every property to make sure we’re maximizing that guest experience.[00:09:00] 

Brian Searl: All right, so walk us back, right, for the people who have not heard of Roam America yet, which I think is fair because you’re a relatively new brand. Walk us through why Roam America began. 

Scott McGee: Yeah, so Roam America began with an idea that we want to make campgrounds attainable again for, especially for a younger generation.

You know, we feel that sometimes, you know my history, Brian, for those of you that don’t, RV resorts. Everything’s concrete, paved, beautiful pools. That can feel intimidating for especially newer RVers, first time RVers. So what we want is something that bridges a gap between authentic camping and comfortable camping and glamping.

So we’re, that’s kind of what Rome America was born out of, is that a desire to be one with nature, but be, have the creature comforts. 

Brian Searl: Okay. So how do you feel like [00:10:00] the experience that you have, you’re coming into the role at Rome America? How do you feel like that is going to set the stage for what you plan to do at Rome America?

Like, I’ll just give you that broad question. Let me start there. 

Scott McGee: Yeah. Yeah, that’s a great question. You know, so my experience was I started off in this industry in Houston, Texas with some really good mentors that taught me a lot. And it was an award winning park and it was the beautiful concrete, beautiful pools, beautiful resort.

And you really understand When you’re running an operation like that, the hospitality side of it, you know, you’re driving a higher ADR, people have higher expectations, you need to be hospitable. And so from there, you know, coupled with the Rome portfolio that is very authentic, very close to nature, we have properties right on the Weber River in Utah, right on the Provo River in Utah.

And [00:11:00] then one of our newest in our flagship is in Lake Powell, Arizona. And so they’re very close to nature, close to all those outdoor experiences. And so I think my background in the hospitality coupled with the wonderful physical attributes of our properties, that’s going to be a winning, winning success.

Brian Searl: So when you say you, and I heard you right, you want to make your properties more approachable to the average person, is that fair? It’s not necessarily a younger person you’re targeting, although that is certainly people you’re going to bring into the resort, right? You’re targeting all demographics, is that fair?

Scott McGee: Yeah, I think it’s fair to say we target all demographics, but I do, I think it’s also fair to say we want to try to focus on, you know, the younger crowd that’s coming into the industry. Okay. Because that customer lifetime value that we’re going to get by bringing in that young person and letting them have a good experience for the rest of their life, they’re going to be camping with us.

So you know, [00:12:00] I think back to, I was at the Arbit convention. I think in 2016. And I know, I know I look 58, but I’m very young actually. And they were having a big thing about millennials and like, oh, how do we get the millennials to camp? You guys know, it’s been a buzzword in our industry for 15 years, it feels like.

And I think soon enough, we’re going to be talking about how do we get Gen Z to camp? How do we get them to camp more? How do we get them to spend their income with us? And so, we want to be kind of at the forefront of that younger demo targeting as well. But, yes, we’re accessible for anybody and everybody that wants an authentic camping experience.

Brian Searl: I mean, it’s a good idea because, to be fair, we have been talking about this for 15 years. And I have my own views about, like, Millennials still Google and are on Facebook. So, like, stop obsessing about them. But, like, for the Millennials that we were talking about 15 years ago, they’re already adults. So, we don’t even need to target Millennials anymore, right?

Did they keep renewing every year or how does that work? Do they just age out of? Anyway, sorry. So specific [00:13:00] to, so specific to Realm though. What do you feel like, and this is more of a, and I’d love to hear the other people’s opinions on this too, as we go through the show, what do you feel like makes the not having the patio side and not having the luxury style amenities?

What makes it more approachable to not have that? 

Scott McGee: Well, I think we, we definitely have those. You got to have, you know, the parity between what you’re talking about, right? Sure. I think you know, when you’re starting out RVing and you’re pulling your 16 foot casita behind your truck and you pull in and it’s a, the, I don’t want to call it elitist, but motorhomes only resorts, class A only resorts, you’re parking next to big setups, big rigs, and you’re just in your van, you know, your camper van that you 

Brian Searl: We can call it like a people who have more money than us, because I don’t have enough money to stay there either.

Scott McGee: So, yeah, I mean, that’s kind of, that is the stereotype of it, but it, it is intimidating for some [00:14:00] people to, you know, pull in there and, Just their surroundings, they don’t quite feel comfortable. So that’s what we’re trying to bridge the gap. Now we have parks that are definitely set up for big class A’s all the way down to camper vans, pop up tents, but you know we’re not going to say, oh you can’t use that pop up tent, or we’re not going to say, oh you can’t have a van in here.

So It’s that kind of openness and inclusiveness that we’re going for as well. 

Brian Searl: Okay. What would you say to, and I know this is not everybody, right? But what would you say to the people who have a perhaps mistaken impression? But maybe not in some cases that people who travel with less luxurious RVs are not worth as much money to my property.

Scott McGee: Yeah. 

Brian Searl: Because like we’ve seen that boom in the last four or five years, right. Especially during COVID where. Everybody’s got to build a luxury RV resort now. 

Scott McGee: Yeah. No, you’re absolutely right. And I think that’s a common [00:15:00] misconception because the younger demographic, they are willing to spend money. They just don’t want to spend money on the cup that you sell in your gift shop.

They want to spend money on the kayaking tours. They want to spend money on We just opened a new zipline course at one of our properties outside of Salt Lake. They want those experience based ancillary revenue drivers for us, and that’s what we really try to focus on. 

Brian Searl: Last question, then I want to go to Joe for a second.

So what have you seen as you’ve built out the amenities in the different Rome America locations? What have you seen be more popular as far as a spending avenue for, I guess, these types of people, for lack of a better word, right? Because there’s not really an age range to deal with. These types of campers.

Versus maybe what has surprised you and hasn’t been as big of a revenue driver that you thought would be? 

Scott McGee: That’s a great question. I think, you [00:16:00] know, these campers that we’re talking about, what we’ve seen is definitely the ropes courses that we’re offering now. Because it’s an experience, it’s a thrill.

Attraction. So that’s done pretty well for us. And then you know, I don’t think there’s anything I can think of that hasn’t really been a good revenue driver. Everything else that we do is sort of traditional. I would say if I’m talking to any owner out there, any investors, somebody wanting to get in this business, you still better spend money on your pool.

You still better spend money on your bathrooms, make them beautiful, make them clean, make them modern. And then third sites, right? You want to have good sites, upgraded sites. Everybody wants to be comfortable, but you know, overall, I think it is the, the kayak rentals, the ropes courses, those have all been good winners for us.

Brian Searl: All right. Maybe we’ll pivot back to amenities in a minute. I want to go to Joe here from Moores Campground Consulting. Joe, my opening question to you, and I’ll have many, I promise, but [00:17:00] my opening question to you is. Now that you’ve met Rachel from KCN and you’ve met Scott from Rome America, do you have any advice for them knowing that they could all be better organizations if they had used Moore’s Campground Consulting as their consulting service?

Joe Moore: Well, I think you just said it. That’s it. Come talk to me. Let’s talk. You know, but I was listening to what Rachel and Scott had to say, and when I was running the campground, and this was way back before, I mean I won’t tell you. I’ll just say I’m long in the tooth. And I’ve been in the industry for for, you know, 20 plus years now.

But the same thing that Scott was talking about of trying to attract that younger generation. My mantra when I was managing a park was, I want to have a wow factor. I, even if it’s, wow, that was awfully nice of them to do that. Or, you Holy cow. Wow. I wasn’t expecting that. Because to [00:18:00] your point, Scott, you know, I use this analogy.

You give your wife a couple of hundred bucks to go to the store. She’s going to come back carrying, you know, a couple of bags of something, maybe just one bag for a couple hundred bucks. And she’s going to show you what you got. When people come into your park and they give you a couple hundred dollars to spend the weekend, when they leave on Monday, what is it that they leave with?

They leave with the experience. They leave with the attention to detail. They, they leave with your responsiveness to maybe a situation they may have. They leave with how well is this place maintain the details and such as that, so I’m kind of excited that Scott and Rachel Companies have taken it and made what I consider to be Just my my method of operation and turned it into a [00:19:00] business because when we did that, I mean, we went our first year, we were at about a quarter of a million dollars gross revenue.

And I left 12 years later, we were at 1. 2, 1. 4 million. And it’s because we listened to our people. We gave them experiences and it’s an experiential thing. I think across the board, people are wanting that experiential. I’m, I’m a father to some millennials, you know, and to your point, they, they want to do things.

They don’t want to just go and, Oh, look, I’m at this place. They want to say, wow, while I was here, I did this, I did that. And so, Part of that is what you do as to manage it, the other part is to how, what you put in there. Some people, if you build out in the middle of nowhere, you’re going to have to build that something, that experience sometime.

But if you’re taking advantage of a nearby national monument, or [00:20:00] a big water park, or something to that effect, you need to make sure you leverage off of that. Get some kind of partnership going. Have the people know that, hey, go out and have fun over at that water park. That I can’t afford to build. When you come, hey, we’re going to have some, some wine tasting.

We’re going to have a little background music going. We’re going to have a scavenger hunt for the kids and you give them a connection with that destination and they’re going to go home and they’re going to tell their friends, neighbors, and relatives, hey man, you may not get into it, but you got to come and check this place out.

So I’m glad to see that people recognize, my concern is these big corporates coming in. That buying, they’re buying up the mom and pops. My concern is they’re going to be looking at how am I going to give the investor more money? And they’re going to say, well, we don’t need that. We don’t need those people.

Well, let’s cut back here and that the experiential side of things may [00:21:00] get diminished a little bit. So I’m hoping there’s more folks like Rachel and Scott that are going to bring that experiential attention. Mentality forward as the, as our industry continues to grow. 

Brian Searl: Well, and I think that’s a good topic, right?

So we’ll get in and I want to talk about Moore’s Campground a little bit more for a second before we get into that. But specifically, I think there’s an opportunity here for us to talk about some of those experiences and some of the different things each of your organizations has done and some of the ways that you’ve focused on those experiences that people have.

But before we get there, I just want to make sure that we’re clarifying for the people in the audience here. We, you said something specific that I, that I latched onto and it was the, I want to provide that wow experience, right? But also like, it’s not any wow experience, right? We need, maybe we should clarify for people.

We don’t want like, wow, my campsite smelled like marijuana, right? We’re just looking for the specific types of wows, right? 

Joe Moore: Right. 

Brian Searl: So yeah, Morse, Morse Campground [00:22:00] Consulting. Sorry, you can answer that if you really want to, but I was just being Rachel kicked off my sarcasm before the show. She made me be even, even better.

So you can just blame her. But so Morris Campground Consulting, talk us through, like, obviously you’ve got a lot of interest, the expertise, you’ve been here a number of years. I’ve known you for quite a long time. You’ve been in the industry a lot longer. How did you get started in Morris Campgrounds Consulting?

What were you trying to kind of fill a gap for in the industry when you began? And I’m sure that gap has changed now as you’ve grown over the years, but. Do you remember what you tried to start fixing? 

Joe Moore: Well, one is that the training that I had going to the the RVic Campground Management School, my experience in running and managing a park, and, and then the outcomes.

I, we won the state. Campground of the Year Award. We won the National Campground of the Year Award. And I was, I was young. To me, I was 60. I said, I’m young. I’m not, I’m not through with this. I had just gotten [00:23:00] into it. It was, for me as a municipal worker, the first part of my career was To try to stretch that dollar of tax money that people are giving me to when I took over the Vineyard campground and had to be self supporting and I found out holy cow This is fun to make money and to make you know and market and hire and fire So when I finished all of that, I wanted to share that And also I have something to do in my retired years And I moved forward so I stayed in touch with the the state and national organizations to find, you know, continue to To follow the trends, I read all the surveys, and Brian, you know, there’s a lot of surveys out there that we can all read for many times, but I wanted to share We produced so many!

Brian Searl: We’re doing so many! I know we’re talking over each other. I’m sorry for the audience, but we’re 

Joe Moore: Yeah, but Yeah, go ahead. I just wanted to share what brought me to the table. So that new people, when they start up, that here’s, here’s what you [00:24:00] need to do. This, I’m not, I didn’t make this stuff up. People, mentors shared with me how they did it.

I tweaked it to fit my particular needs. And that’s what I encourage others to do. To your point, Scott, you mentioned swimming pools and such. When I’m in the, when we’re building a campground, they’re the basics of a campground. If you put everything else aside, what you need in a campground is you’ve got to.

Pretty much got to have an office, a shower, a maintenance shed, roads and sites, you know, that’s a basic campground. So when we go develop the swimming pool, dog park, playgrounds, basketball courts, group pavilions, those are what we consider ancillary amenities to a campground and then you start building those things into your park and then you’re building that more experiential wave of customers.

So, if you can find water, river, creek, lake, [00:25:00] to begin with, that’s something you don’t have to spend any money on. So, when we go in, you know, I always ask people, so what kind of campground do you want to build? I mean, do you want it to be a family oriented? Do you want it over 55? Do you want long term, short term, nudist camp, equestrian park you know, a glamping park?

I mean, there’s just a slew of them. They said, I just want a campground. Well, you’ve got to hone in and then, then you get into, okay, where is the where are your people going to come from? Look at your 50, 60, 100 mile radius population. If you don’t have the population there, then you’re really, you know, you’re pushing a ball uphill.

And so you look at those kind of things. In my time doing all this, I’ve acquired a lot of things. I’ve created white papers that tell you here’s what you need to do to build a campground and process step 1, 2, 3, 4. They’re going to be different across the country, but here’s the checkbox to take care of it.

Because I am so early on and when a park gets [00:26:00] started, honestly, in the what, 10 years that I’ve been doing this now, I’ve never been invited to a ribbon cutting because they forgot about me. You know, I’m that little piece of pie that they bite off on at the very beginning to get started.

And then they go into the bankers and the investors and everybody else. And a year or two later, they forgot about what I bring to the table. 

Brian Searl: They haven’t forgotten about you. They just don’t, they realize that you’re such a celebrity that you probably don’t have the time to come to the ribbon cutting is what it probably is.

And all the time you’re talking, the, all the time you’re talking, I’m feeling super guilty. Cause I told Scott McGee to switch his camera around before the show started. So you could see Rome America and you have IHO on your shirt, which I feel like is not what you want 

Joe Moore: to represent. 

Brian Searl: So I’m sitting here feeling guilty while you’re talking.

But so my question to you is, is for Moore’s Campground over the 10 years that you’ve been doing this, when you started, you knew things. And [00:27:00] over the 10 years, you’ve continued to pick up things. You served on the. Now Ojai Board of Directors. You’ve networked with probably hundreds, if not thousands, of different people.

What, is there a couple things that you could look at over the last 10 years in our industry or what you’ve learned that has changed your way of thinking? Like I used to recommend something some way and now I recommend it this way? 

Joe Moore: You’ve

Brian Searl: turned it around now. Boy, I’m like super bright now. What happened to me?

Joe Moore: There you are. 

Brian Searl: Now you’re backwards again. You were right. You know, the one thing Go ahead. Sorry.

Joe Moore: The one thing is, back when I started Wi Fi was, It was an amenity. Today, Wi Fi is a utility. You have to have Wi Fi. I mean, it’s unless you want to be that one off part that you’re, you know, you’re traditionalist, you’re going to get away from TVs, Wi Fi, everything. There’s a [00:28:00] few of those out there.

But in today’s world, you got too many people too connected socially. So, Wi Fi now becomes an amenity. You’ve got to have it along with water, sewer, and electric. You gotta have 50 amp. And now, we’re at the cusp. Now, I’m saying, every park needs to start off with at least two EV charging stations. 20 years from now, every station’s gonna be a charging station.

You know, we’re at that cusp again. So, other than that, I mean, people have the thing is, you almost have to have a concierge concierge, what do you call them? The person that greets you at the hotel door? Concierge? You have to almost have a concierge service. Especially with all the new ones coming in they don’t know how to hook their sewer up, how to drain the tank, how to, how to, what to do with the pressure regulator on a water hose or You know, they need help backing in, you know, because they’ve never backed in a big bus before.

So, we’re seeing more of that. That’s more on the management side. The actual development side [00:29:00] things, you know, in the past five or six years, OHI has adopted the NFPA 1194 standards. We didn’t, they were out there before, but now that we’ve adopted that as one of the standards, that gives us the ADA. Ability to for turning radiuses, for surfacing, which all of these things to me were protocol because I, you know, my career was in municipal government, we had to do everything that way but it, by not doing it you are segmenting out a market share of the, of your guests.

By having it, when you’re building it, it’s a lot easier, a lot cheaper than to go back in and retrofit things. But overall, it’s, it’s a matter of realizing that we’re in the outdoor hospitality actually. We coined a phrase when we work with municipal government, we are a quality of life entity. We are a quality of life.

If you think about it, [00:30:00] the campground industry, and I’m not going to go on record saying this, but I am because this is being recorded, you could do away with campgrounds. Life would be gone. Why do people do it though? They do it to recharge. They do it as a quality of life. A quality of life is a swimming pool at your park or in a municipality having a playground or a ball.

These are things that bring comfort, they bring you know, some softening of real life things to pass. We even consider cemeteries, memorial parks, just driving by brings a sense of sometimes sadness but sometimes relief overlooking at it. People seeing your park, even though they’re not standing, staying there, they see a nice looking park.

Your first impression may be somebody that’s never going to stay there, but they like to buy and look [00:31:00] at your sign or look at your landscaping, those kind of things. So we’re in the quality of life. Business, which happens to be the outdoor hospitality industry. 

Brian Searl: So I like that word, but like last week we met, last week we had a guy on the a glamping show that we were talking to who’s a regular guest.

He’s from, I’m going to butcher it. I think it’s from the Netherlands, but one of the, I think one of the Nordic countries, he’s got campgrounds all over, over there or camping sites is what they call them. And he was saying that they call it the open air industry, which I love, like that’s way better to me than outdoor hospitality.

But I don’t know if we, I don’t know if I’m interested in starting that movement over here, but I think that’s an interesting conversation. Like, let’s pivot this a little bit and talk about some of the amenities and experiences, and I think that what you bring up is a valid point. Like, we’ve heard this repetitively out of, you know, everybody’s mouth that, you know, you need to have Wi Fi.

You need to, like the people who are paying attention or who have any semblance of, I want to serve my guests, have Wi Fi at their park. Or at least have the best Wi Fi that they can get in the area at their park [00:32:00] for the price that makes sense for them for the margin at their campground, right? So let’s talk about something, and maybe each of you can throw out an idea if you want to talk about it.

Let’s talk about some ways that we are figuring out new ways to drive experiences, because I think this is important as a first starting point. Because as we go into what is arguably, and I feel it’s not arguably, but an economic downturn, people are starting to see camper nights. I think it’s from what I’ve, the people I’ve talked to across all states go down quite a bit this, you know, year, and I think it’s going to continue to do so.

I think people are still going to go camping. I think our industry is going to be fine. But generally speaking, camper nights go down. I think there is a need for us as campground owners or consultants or, well, podcast hosts who do nothing all day but talk. But for you guys. To really kind of focus on what makes my park [00:33:00] different, and what sets it apart from everybody else.

 Joe, you do a lot of consulting, and we’ll come back to you last, as a third, just so you can think about this. What have you seen other parks do? And then Scott, what is, what would Rome America hang its hat on, what would Rachel hang its hat on at KCN? And Scott, if you want to go first, go ahead. 

Scott McGee: Okay.

I’ll go first. No, I think you’re spot on. I mean, differentiation is the key to competitive advantage, right? So I think at Roam our differentiator is going to be our, our tech stack from a real high level. We want to make sure that we make the camper experience seamless from the moment they land on our website.

The, when it, with regards to amenities, You know, we want to make sure that our marketing messaging is showing those amenities, showing people having fun on them, showing what somebody can experience. So it’s a very visual brand. And then on site, you know, just a continued focus on [00:34:00] experiential amenities.

And so I think Rome, America, we’re always going to be. You know, close to nature. And I think people are going to get that when they get to our properties, the true feeling of recharging and checking out from it all. 

Brian Searl: So if you could say, if you could have a guest, and I know that this is a multifaceted answer, so I’m going to make you pick one.

If you could have a guest leave a Rome America property and say, I really enjoyed that because one thing, what would it be? 

Scott McGee: Close to nature. Every one of our properties is just. You feel like you’re, you’re in it, you know, very authentic. 

Brian Searl: All right, same eventual question to you about that, so you can think about that fill in the blank, Rachel, but first, what sets KCN?

I 

Rachel Williamson: think for KCN, unreasonable hospitality. Ensuring that throughout the whole experience, [00:35:00] they’re having a good time. And I think that we’ve done some really interesting techniques to ensure that we’re communicating with our guests, all the opportunities that they have, both onsite and in the local area to really enjoy where they are and take a step back, take a deep breath and take a minute to live in the moment and appreciate what’s going on around them.

I think that so many times, yes, we need Wi Fi, but also telling people it’s okay to put your phone down for a minute and maybe just enjoy the campfire, or it’s okay to put your phone down and go swim in the pool, and helping people to feel relaxed enough that they can disconnect at our campgrounds. 

Brian Searl: Okay, same question, fill in the blank, but to be clear, nobody at a KCN campground can enjoy nature that’s already taken by Roam America, so that’s true.

Rachel Williamson: What I would hope our guests would say, hmm, probably that the hospitality was spectacular. 

Brian Searl: Define that a little bit more specifically for me, I’m going to make [00:36:00] it, I’m going to be hard on you a little bit. The hospitality is a broad word, right? 

Rachel Williamson: that As the guests went through and had their experience, any time they were in need or any time they had a question for our guests or our staff, and as they were going through enjoying the time being at the campground, if they had that need and if they reached out to our staff, we did everything in our power to ensure that they had a wonderful time.

Brian Searl: Okay, so I’m really impressed that KCN, or the KCN property I’m staying at, Answered all my questions and provided good. 

Rachel Williamson: But more than that of, Hey, I’m really curious about what there is in the local area that I can go do. I just have a couple hours. Awesome. You know what? We’re going to be your tour guides.

Here’s an example of the different opportunities that we have in the local area that you can go and enjoy. Or, Hey, you know, I need somewhere to board my dog for the day. Cause we’re going to Yellowstone. Do you have a place or recommendation? Yep. Here’s some options. Make sure to check with them and see if they have availability.

So it’s making sure that beyond. Being an expert on your own [00:37:00] campground, but what are those local businesses in the area that can support you? 

Brian Searl: So this is interesting to me and I want to get to Joe, but just this sparked a question in my head because, and I, and I know there are some people who don’t, but is it fair to say that a lot of people in the industry are still looking to hire work campers who change seasonally?

For seasonal workers who may not be there year over year, how do you deal with that? Like, if your goal at KCN, and I know this is a hard question, and I’m not saying you’ve thought about it, but just kind of what you think might be the answer, how do you deal with the, I’m a work camper or I’m a seasonal worker who’s coming to Sheridan or Gettysburg or one of the locations for the KCN properties, and they don’t know all the nitty gritty details of the best places to camp?

Like, they certainly are going to know that Gettysburg is battlefield, right? But they don’t know the best pizza place and they don’t know where to send them to get groceries that’s cheaper than the other place or has How do you deal with training those people to provide a great answer, not a good answer?

Rachel Williamson: Beyond just having the training that we offer our work [00:38:00] campers, we also have guides that we’ve put together to make sure that it’s kind of a cheat sheet for our campground that we can use to help them make sure that when they’re communicating with our guests, they have everything they need to be seamless in their communication.

Brian Searl: Do you find that they easily pick that up, or does there have to be mysteries? I’m trying to get to the, what I’m trying to get at is, is not to grill you, it’s to, for the campground owners who are watching this show, thinking about like, wow, that’s a heavy lift with all the other things on my plate. How am I going to train my staff to provide that level of knowledge to them so that they can repeat it to the guests?

Rachel Williamson: Ultimately, when we’re asking our staff to look at and I say staff, asking our team members to look at these local attractions, it’s more than just, hey, we need you to look at these local attractions, I need you to tell this to the guests. There’s also the flip side of, hey, let’s look at these local attractions, is this something you want to make sure you do while you’re here?

And then after they’ve gone and experienced some of those local attractions [00:39:00] for themselves, they’re so much more passionate about what there is in the local area to really experience. 

Brian Searl: That makes sense to me, 100%. Have any of you guys done that before with some of your staff, Scott? Or, well, we’ll get to Joe in a second, but Scott, have you done that?

Yeah. 

Scott McGee: Yeah. So we do, we, all of our properties that are kind of close together, we, we do a lot of synergy between the two and sometimes it’s outings to different places, making sure we’re all, even at a property 30 miles away, speaking the same language, saying the same things, helping people in the same way.

But I think like, you know, one thing that I have to, I always tell people whenever I’m talking to people that want to get into this business or managers, you know, the learning curve can be steep when you’ve got people there for a short amount of time. So it’s your job as an operator to, you know, really focus on training.

The keep it simple, stupid method is [00:40:00] my favorite thing in the world. I try not to overcomplicate anything. Because I think, kind of, you were touching on it, Brian, bringing in those people, they’re there for a short period of time. How do they know anything? How do they learn anything? You’ve got to keep that learning curve very small.

And by doing things like Rachel was talking about, that’s how you shorten that learning curve. 

Brian Searl: Okay, makes sense to me. Joe, same question to you. You’ve, obviously, you don’t own a campground, but you certainly have had your hands in a fair share of them who’ve been building and, and, and providing experiences.

So what would you say to the, to the question? 

Joe Moore: Well, for the most part, I you do have to go in with a great idea for yourself. Then I like to take advantage and leverage what’s already out there. If you’re, if you’re not, I encourage people to become members of their Chamber of Commerce. You’ve got somebody there in the Chamber that they would love to come out and spend a couple of hours with your [00:41:00] staff to share with them what’s in the, what’s the area, what’s in the area.

What kind of a package? A lot of them have some pre printed material and those kind of things. But you’ve got to, you’ve got to go out there yourself and know what’s out there. Try to get people to fully understand what it is they’re selling. You’re first and foremost, you got to realize that, well not you, but they have to realize that what they say is an extension of what you yourself would say to somebody.

I’m not saying you’ve got to clone everybody, but if, if you know, it’s the old adage, I’m in the analogies, but if you throw a pebble of sand into a puddle of water, it doesn’t create a lot of waves, does it? By the time it reaches the edge of that puddle, it’s pretty well gone. But as you’re, as the owner, the manager, the supervisor, you throw a big enough rock in, [00:42:00] even the people that are out there cleaning the bathrooms or picking up trash in the park, or just doing you know, minor jobs, they’re going to hear and feel that you’re where your position lies and you want to let people know if they don’t know.

What’s the, what do you tell them? Well, I just don’t know. No, you say, tell you what, hang on, let me go find somebody that does and we’ll get, get our answer to you. But to train those people up. I’m sure Rachel and Scott, whenever they do hire Work Campers, which I use all the time WorkCamper. com, I don’t know if you’ve ever interviewed Steve Anderson, Brian, but he would be a good one to come on, but you have an opportunity to ask pointed questions.

You know, have they been to this area before? Do they have a, if you’re, say, in the Gettysburg area, do they have a passion for history? So it’s a, it’s a, it’s a matter of making that splash of what What it is you’re trying to purvey out there making it big enough that people understand that you’re [00:43:00] passionate about this.

You need, the more people want to get out, the longer they want to stay, the better it helps everybody. 

Scott McGee: So, I think, Brian, can I add something to that? Yes. I’m sorry. Yeah, go ahead. So, I think Joe brought up a good point about the Chamber of Commerce, and just for all the listeners and owner operators out there, it’s like, the idea of forming partnerships, we, we shouldn’t bury the lead on that, I mean, really having a go to that are people with the Chamber, because if you’re on your front desk recommending somebody that’s a reflection of you.

So I love Joe’s idea about the Chamber of Commerce and you know, really, you know, mutually beneficial partnerships for everybody. You, that vendor, that contractor, that service person. Great idea. 

Brian Searl: How do you make sure that And I agree with that. How do you make sure that you’re providing this experience to all of your guests?

And what I mean by that [00:44:00] is, you know, the earlier conversation we were having between Millennials and Gen Z and whatever you call the older demographic, the normal people who didn’t have a label. So as you’re, as you’re looking at, yes, training your staff is one component of that, but there are only a certain number of people who will walk into the office and will ask the manager, Or the owner or whoever, what do I do in the area?

That will cover some people, right? But then there are people who will look at your website. There are people who will, I don’t know, how do you cover all the areas to make sure that guests, no matter how they choose to communicate with you, are being served the same type of experience, whatever you decide that is your property.

Rachel Williamson: Now you’re diving into marketing strategy, Brian. 

Scott McGee: Yeah, it sounds like Rachel’s department. 

Rachel Williamson: Well, you’re really digging into the marketing strategy of how are you making sure that you’re communicating with all of your guests and really digging into what is your marketing strategy to [00:45:00] ensure that No matter what their preferred facet of communication is, you’re meeting that for them and it’s meeting your guest needs in that manner.

Scott McGee: And I think on our end, we use, sorry I’m just going to talk over you. You were talking over Joe earlier, so I’m going to talk over you. 

Brian Searl: The more people talk over me, the better the show is. 

Scott McGee: Yeah, right. No, but the, like I’d mentioned earlier, the tech stack, right? You have, you know, Brian, I know you’ve been pioneering in our industry, the AI through the website.

You’ve got your front desk people. We’ve got remote concierge in our company that are able to handle a bunch of different parts at once. And then on site messaging. You want to make sure that whenever people arrive, you have a touch point with them after they leave that office. Because it’s inevitable that somebody’s going to go to that office.

Check in, go to their campsite, be like, Oh, dang it. I forgot to ask this out of the other. So we’re also using you know, it’s a [00:46:00] chat program with some canned responses and AI availability for post check in as well. I think that’s super important. 

Brian Searl: Okay. Very cool. Anybody else have any thoughts? Joe? 

Joe Moore: I’d say, I think you asked earlier how is AI, I think what Scott and I’m sure Rachel is going to do as well is, is that AI component is to, people, people want responses, you know, right away, they don’t want to have to go up to the office and find somebody waiting in line because they’re on the phone or whatever, be able to go over there, Oh, talk with me, click a little button, and I answer the question.

You say you use remote concierge, and that’s a great thing, which we also did. We had one person, they would in fact, they could, they would, we wouldn’t escort everyone. We’d bring everyone to their site, but that person was roaming all the time, just checking in on them. After they got settled, check in on them and see if we got any questions.

You have made plans for dinner [00:47:00] tonight, I can make some recommendations, and try to spur those questions out of them. When you do that, then they’ve established a relationship, and that’s what I’m all about. Relationships, whether it’s with my clients, to know that, hey, even after we’ve built your custom ribbon without me, you’re still there, you can still call me up, and I’ll try to put you in touch with somebody, whether it’s a Brian Searls to to Searls, excuse me, not to S.

Does marketing and, and, or Peter Pellin or, or whoever the case may be to help them to further their, their projects. And so you’d relationship by having that remote concierge, it’s a great idea to have somebody there, you know, who is KOA, I mean, not KOA, but their concierge person is Yogi. I mean, they go out and everybody, Yogi could have so many questions right along with them.

So. That’s a really, really good way of [00:48:00] broadening, expanding your your FAQs, if you will.

Brian Searl: Joe, I have a question for you. I was, and I had forgotten about it. I was trying to remember, but you were talking earlier in your last answer, and I was, I was thinking about as you were talking, as we were talking about these experiences, and you obviously consult with a lot of people and you make recommendations.

You know, one of the things that I struggle with on my side is, and, and obviously this is very much opinion based, right? But it is a, how do I, if I get to a point where I see in my business, it’s marketing, right? If I get to a point where I see a certain marketing channel, isn’t working anymore for a campground, generally speaking, but that marketing channel is very widely used throughout the industry and is, you know, preached and said that this is the best thing to do.

And how do I balance the, when do I, when am I ethically or morally responsible with saying like, you’re wasting money here on this specific thing? And so my question to you is, Is as you consult with new people who are coming into [00:49:00] develop parks, if you get someone who comes in and doesn’t know what they want to do and just says, I want a campground, but just says, I want to build a campground to put as many people in here as possible and make as much money.

And I don’t care about the experience. Is that a situation where like, it’s just not a fit for you? Or do you try to correct them and say like, Oh no, but you should be paying attention to this. Let me give you that advice or.

Joe Moore: Well to put it bluntly I tell people pretty, pretty early on in our conversation and relationship building, I said, I’m, I’m going to tell you what worked for me. I’m not going to tell you what you want to hear because they are, you know, sometimes people just want to hear, how do I make money?

And I told them, as I, the analogy I used earlier about giving somebody 200, if you, if you worry about the Management of the park, the experiential part of it is going to follow. [00:50:00] Don’t worry about the money.

Take care of those amendments you address to make it something that they’re going to tell us. Tell their families about them. That’s going to bring you the money in. But if somebody comes in and they want, they want a long term park, I’ve told them, I’ve had to tell people that. I’ve had people say, hey Joe, I bought, I bought this land, you know, it’s what do you think?

And I say, well, what’s going on next door? Oh, that’s a guy, he’s a landscaper in town and he just brings all of his, you know, His tree trimmings and stuff out here. He said he’s going to turn it into some kind of composting facility. And I just go, oh no. You ever smelled a composting facility? It’s not good.

You know, and so I took the guy, I told him, You need to sell this. Either buy that property or sell this. And he ended up selling that property. I’ve had I’ve had [00:51:00] situations like that. So, you know, when you get into the marketing thing, whether it’s the type of reservation system they’re using or if they’re they’re print media or whatever the case may be, all you can do, I mean, you know this Brian, you can only give them so much rope, you know, to change things.

And a lot of time it is. And they just don’t. They eventually do, but then by then, you know, it’s money lost. It’s, you know, every, as they say, used to say, and I’m sure they still say it, but a RV site or a cabin not rented is money forever lost. You can never go back and re rent that. So, do everything you can to, if somebody comes in and says, Hey, Scott, I got, I got 40 bucks in my pocket, but he got a 80.

a night and it’s Friday night at eight o’clock and he says, I’ve only got 40 bucks. Are you going [00:52:00] to turn them away? You shouldn’t because you have 40 bucks. Are you going to put them away? 

Brian Searl: Are you going to put them away? I’m trying to decide where I’m going to stay in Arizona and Utah. So I’m just waiting for your answer here.

Scott McGee: I might take your 40 bucks, Brian. Okay. Sorry, Jim. Go ahead. 

Joe Moore: No, no, no, no. But I mean, I don’t know how you really get, sometimes it’s a school of hard knocks for people to really, understand the proper way to do things. I mean, I don’t do this, as I mentioned, it’s not anything I created. Everything that you all do, we didn’t create.

We have just taken what our forefathers, our mentors, have told us and tweaked it a little bit here or there. And if they don’t follow that, then they’re creating their own

Brian Searl: Alright, we’ve got about five minutes left and I’d like to go around and just get your last final thoughts if there’s anything you guys want to say and obviously plug your different companies and [00:53:00] all that, but just the last question I have in addition to that is talk to us for the for the people who are watching the show and let’s move away from development for a second and just say for the people who already own a campground and who are looking at, and I’m starting with you, Joe, which is why I’m leaving you big for an economic situation where you’re It’s no longer if you build it, they will just come, right?

And who knows if this is a three month blip, or a two year blip, or a five year blip, or who knows, right? But it’s no longer that. So you’ve got to focus on things like great marketing and great experiences more importantly, right? Because the delivery of, like, who cares how good the marketing is if you get there and treat them, if their site smells like marijuana.

Let’s use our example. Wow. So, if you’re, if you’re looking at that, And saying to some of these campground owners who are looking at their financials and looking at their camper nights and having concerns about how they’re going to meet the forecast and meet the budgets that they made. Is [00:54:00] there something that you could say to them that is a piece of advice that would kind of be like, this is a way that you can change the experience at your campground, and maybe that doesn’t fix the issue tomorrow, but will help you stand out as we head down this whatever path that we’re on economic wise.

From an experiential standpoint is what I’m talking about. 

Joe Moore: Yeah, yeah. From my position as a consultant, That’s where a market study, a feasibility study comes in. Because when I go in and I look at a park that’s being built, And even some that somebody buys, so to speak. I’ll go in and I look and I do this 60 mile market study and I have a list of all of their amenities, their rates and such, and you want to be equal to or better than your closest competitor.

So look at what they’ve got. If that’s working for them, if that’s, if the strongest rated and and the high, [00:55:00] the most occupancy park that’s close to you is working it, there’s nothing wrong with You know, copying, it’s not plagiarizing, but hey, go over there and pick up a piece or two of what they’re doing and see what they’re doing.

So I hear you, I hear 

Brian Searl: you. I’m intentionally interrupting you. I’m sorry, just because we have only a couple minutes, but here’s what I want to make it a hard question for you, because that’s good advice, but let’s say I’m, let’s say I had Joe develop my park. I consulted with him. I forgot about him at the rivet cutting, but now I’m three or four years into my park, and I’m like, hey, Joe, You know, I couldn’t think of who else to call.

You were a really smart guy. I did actually remember you. You helped me develop this. My park was going great. It was wonderful. But now I’m in trouble. What can I, I don’t have time to do a feasibility study. I don’t have time, like, and, and, and it’s one thing to do rate shopping, but like, there’s only so much comparison shopping inequality you can get.

So what can I really do to make my park stand out is what I’m going after. 

Joe Moore: Well, the very basics would be long [00:56:00] term, short term. If you have problems filling the short term, the overnights, weekenders, then take some of your sites and make them long term. It’s a less less revenue per site per ADR, but at least it’s a burden of hand versus wanting to get in there.

And then, and then you can fluctuate that as times develop. Go out and try to revisit, maybe revisit your marketing personnel. Talk with some go to people. All of these different sites, this you know, Modern Campground, go to the conversations, Coffee Conversation, tap into any of the different podcasts that are out there to help what you’re doing.

And then, but realize you’ve got to re initiate. I mean, if you’re a member of Ohio, I’ll put it in the plug for that. A 20 group is a great thing to get involved in because they will help you mentor one another. But otherwise, you’re going to have to that or because you can’t sell, you know, when you’re, when you’re going down, it’s very difficult to sell [00:57:00] that part to move on to something else.

Brian Searl: All right, Scott, same question to you. So I’m a campground owner. Everything was going along fine for 4, years. Now I’m starting to see that I need to differentiate myself. What do I do? 

Scott McGee: Yeah. So I am gonna say I think it’s a bit of a loaded question because you’re not you’re not gonna do one thing You’re gonna do a hundred different things, right?

Brian Searl: Correct. I’m asking where you would advise them to start. Yeah. 

Scott McGee: Yeah, so a market shrinking Doesn’t mean there’s no market left. My recommendation at that point is invest in your amenities so that you can gain market share of what’s left. Okay. Rachel? 

Rachel Williamson: I would start with a market analysis and then switch over depending on how the results turn for that to a demographic analysis to see who is our customer base at that point, and then I would do a competitive analysis to see where we’re lacking compared to our competitors and where we need to fill in the slack.[00:58:00] 

Brian Searl: Okay, for the mom and pop campground owners out there, or the people who, generally speaking, are not familiar with the, how do I get a competitive analysis done? How do I get a market analysis done? How do I, as a campground owner, get that done? 

Rachel Williamson: Well, I would highly recommend talking with a marketing expert.

It’s not something I can Quickly explain in a minute. I apologize, but it’s a larger part. 

Brian Searl: Generally speaking, is that you’d go toward the marketing side is what you’re saying? Or? 

Rachel Williamson: Most definitely. 

Brian Searl: All right. So wrap it up. We’re, we’re a little bit over. If anybody needs to go, feel free, but I’m just going to ask you to, to Casey and Campgrounds, where can they find out more information?

Rachel Williamson: They should definitely go and check out our website Caseyandcampgrounds. com. 

Brian Searl: Scott McGee, where can they find out more about Roam America? 

Scott McGee: RoamAmerica. com 

Brian Searl: Alright, and Joe Moore, it’s unfair that you’re going to get 5 seconds of space time and then more air time than these guys, but where can they find out about Moore’s Campground Consulting?[00:59:00] 

Joe Moore: Same place, Moore’sCampgroundConsulting. com Will you all lower your rates for that last question?

Scott McGee: No? I want to say yes, but Never lower your rates. Not unless I think that would Never, never, never. Depends. Maybe. 

Rachel Williamson: Depend on the results of your competitive analysis. 

Scott McGee: That’d be like the a hundred thing I would do. You know,

Brian Searl: discounting, but not lowering your rates permanently. Rack rates day. 

Joe Moore: Oh yeah, for sure. Okay, 

Brian Searl: cool guys. We’re a little bit over. Thank you guys. I appreciate it. It was a great show. Joe, for being here. Morris Campground Consulting, Rachel Williamson, KCN Campground, Scott McGee from Rome, America. Really appreciate you guys.

Good conversation. We’ll see you guys next week on an RV industry focused episode. Take care guys. Thanks for being here. Appreciate it.[01:00:00] 

Joining us for this episode of MC Fireside Chats with your host, Brian Searl. Have a suggestion for a show idea? Want your campground or company in a future episode? Email us at hello at moderncampground. com Get your daily dose of news from moderncampground. com And be sure to join us next week for more insights into the fascinating world of outdoor hospitality.