MC Fireside Chats – June 14th, 2023

Brian: Welcome everybody to another episode of MC Fireside Chats. My name is Brian Searl with Insider Perks here for our regular recurring glamping show episode that we have on the second Wednesday [00:01:00] of every month. I’m excited to have the show. I’m not excited to be inside. It’s rainy and dreary, which is really weird for Calgary cause it’s a dry city and we’re thankful to have the rain because the wildfires appear.

But I would rather be outside so you’ll just have to look at my pretty fountain through the window and suffer with my indoor couch and background and everything else. But super excited to talk about all things glamping here. We have a couple of our recurring guests. We’ve got Irene Wood joining us again.

We’ve got Connor Schwab from Sage Outdoor Hospitality, and we have David Smith from, what is the name of your company? David, you haven’t been here in so long. I was about to say it and then I dunno it anymore. 

Irene: Outside Capital. 

David: Thanks, Irene. 

Brian: I knew it was outside something.

Alright, so David Smith is really important, but he couldn’t be here for the last few weeks, so we’re excited to have him back. And then we’ve got Annette from Rustic Rook Resort, who’s one of our special guests. He’s got. A place that is located about 19 miles from Great Sand Dunes National Park. We were talking about this before the show, whether it just became it or didn’t, but either way, it seems like a great place to be near a national park where people definitely wanna go and enjoy the outdoors.

And then we [00:02:00] are super grateful to have Dimphy all the way from Romania who owns a new quiet campsite in Romania, located in, I’m not gonna pronounce it so I’m gonna let Dimphy let’s just start with Dimphy and she can introduce herself and she can pronounce everything right and then we’ll know and we can claim to have known all along.

Dimphy: Oh, I’m not sure if I’m gonna pronounce it perfectly because I’m from the Netherlands and I’m having a campsite in Romania. Okay. So when I ever pronounce the Romanian word, it’s not completely correct. So I will first say how I would describe the name in the Netherlands Valea Scheilor, and when I do it in Romania Valea Scheilor.

So it’s a bit different. 

Brian: Still better than an American, or Canadian would pronounce it, probably but go ahead. Tell us a little bit about your campsite introduce yourself briefly. And then we’ll go around the room. I wanna have Annette introduce yourself and.. 

Dimphy: I’ve recently started a campsite in Romania because we moved to Romania because of my husband’s work, and it always had been a dream for me to have a campsite.

And the first year that we were living in Romania, we went [00:03:00] around with a RV to see the places. In this area, we could not find the campsite, but we did want to stay over because it’s a wine area. So we wanted to do a wine tasting and stay in this area, which was, the wine tasting was possible, but staying on a campsite was not possible yet.

Since then we’ve been developing it and it was my dream to have a campsite. But when I spoke to local people saying that I wanted to start a campsite, many of them said they didn’t own an RV or a tent. So then I also came up with the idea of starting a glamping, and that’s really new here for Romania.

In the Netherlands it’s well known but in Romania it’s pretty new. So I started that and I just put it on booking.com and within 12 hours, I’ve got my first booking. So we’re very close to the capital of Bucharest, Bucharest, that’s the capital of Romania, and it’s only 50 miles away.

So many people that live in the capital come to visit our glamping during the weekend. So it’s been a success since we started. 

Brian: I like how you said Miles. Cause I’m still [00:04:00] getting used to kilometers and everywhere else, so.. 

Dimphy: I looked it up front for the show. 

Brian: It’s a nod to all the Americans on the show.

So I appreciate that. Annette, do you wanna introduce yourself real quick and talk about Rustic Rook?

Annette: My name’s Annette. I’m with Rusty Rook Resort. We started up in 2020. We’re also a glamp ground. We’re in Moscow, Colorado, and as you mentioned, we’re 19 miles from the Great Sand Dunes National Park.

So we’ve got 30 glamping tents. They’re just like hunting style wall tents on wooden platforms. They’re fully furnished. They’re all facing the dunes and the mountains. We’re also in the largest alpine valley in the world, San Luis Valley. So we’ve got beautiful views of three different mountain ranges here.

So we’ve been having a great time hosting people since 2020 and hoping for another good fourth season. 

Brian: Can’t really complain about views like that for sure, when you’re going to work every day there. Not at all. Connor and Irene and David. Let’s let David go. David, do you wanna introduce yourself again since you haven’t been on here in a little bit?

And then is there anything new in your world, David, [00:05:00] since we hadn’t had you on in a couple weeks that you feel like we should be talking about? 

David: Sure. Yeah. David Smith as Irene so kindly introduced our company. We are the I’m the founder of a platform called Outside Capital, which is an investment management company focused specifically on what we call outdoor hospitality, which we define as standing everything from glamping to new age campgrounds and RV parks to other more traditional forms of nature-based hotels and hospitality.

We started the platform about a year ago. My background is primarily on the finance and real estate side of the hotel business, but have always been a passionate. Outdoors person and really fascinated and and inspired by the growth of this alternative glamping, outdoor hospitality industry.

So our mission at Outside Capital is to try and tackle what we think is probably the biggest, one of the [00:06:00] biggest barriers, at least to the the ongoing growth of this industry, which is the availability of capital financial capital to, to do deals. And so we’ve got dedicated capital sources.

We we serve as partners to sponsors and entrepreneurs in the space. And then we also sponsor our own projects around the country. So I’m based in Los Angeles. We’ve probably, compared to last year, we’ve spent a little more time closer to home the first six months of 2023, which has been.

Really nice for me, a little bit less time on airplanes and a lot more time driving up and down the 101 here in California. 

Brian: It’s on my bucket list. I haven’t been there yet, but it’s on my bucket list. 

David: Yeah, it’s a beautiful state and we’re, we’re blessed with proximity to the beaches, the mountains, the desert, wine country and everything else in between.

Brian: I’ve been to California. I just haven’t been up and down. The 101 is the coastal highway, right?

David: It’s right up against the coast for parts of it, [00:07:00] and then it’s a little bit further inland on other parts. But you’re probably thinking of the California, highway one.

Brian: Yeah, that’s the one. Cause I wanted to drive up to the Monterey Bay Aquarium there, but anyway, continue. I’m sorry. 

David: We’re spending most of our time at the moment on a few projects we’re working on here in California in the central coasts in the Northern California wine country.

And we’re seeing a ton of growth around the rest of the country. Definitely, 2023 feels very different to 2022 so far in terms of the overall availability of capital. And, anyone who’s tried to take out a bank loan this year will know that it’s a lot harder to do and it’s a lot more expensive.

We’re trying our best to fill in what we think is a pretty big gap in the market for for this sort of stuff and having a lot of fun doing it. 

Brian: For sure, I definitely wanna deep dive with you in that a little bit later in the show, especially since it’s been a couple months since you’ve been on it, to see how that climate has changed and what your, what you feel [00:08:00] alternatives are for people and how your firm is helping.

For sure. I wanna make sure we give our special guests enough time here in the beginning too, but before we do Connor, Irene, is there anything on your plate that’s come across your desk from a glamping perspective that you feel is, we have to talk about this, we can’t miss it? 

Irene: Connor, I’ll let you go first. Age before beauty. 

Brian: No pressure. 

Connor: Let’s see. Yeah, put me on the spot there, Brian. Let’s see. There’s..

Brian: You can just say no, there’s nothing Brian that’s allowed. 

Connor: Let me think on that for a minute. 

Irene: Brian, I would just say that there’s been, and for whatever reason it feels like encounter, you can probably say that there’s just been a ton of articles that have come out in probably the last 30 days as it relates to whether they’re international or also national publications that are talking a lot about this industry.

Some of the trends that they’re seeing. There was a huge article that came out of, and maybe you were the one that highlighted it, out of [00:09:00] Africa, some of the trends that they initially saw owner operated that segment. And how that segment is still staying true to owner operated and not really getting picked up in a huge rollup.

So there’s just been a lot of data and conversation out there and publication. I’m sure you probably share it, but because it seems like there’s more of it in the last 30 days than I’ve ever seen before. Just as a lot of really good reading out there right now. 

Brian: Yeah. I would love to take credit for that, but that’s for sure.

My team at Modern Campground who does all that, so that’s, Akari and Shara and Mau and Rein, our writers. But yeah, we do our best to, we’re trying to expand and cover as much as we can and all different places the globe. But I think that’s, and maybe you can speak to that a little bit, David, real quick before we get to our special guests, but I think that’s the way investment works from a roll up standpoint, I think it has to start with the small mom and pops to develop the market in most cases. And then once the market’s there, then the big bigger boys come in and are attracted. 

David: Yeah, no I agree with that. I agree with what you said, Brian. 

Brian: Go ahead, Connor. [00:10:00] Sorry. 

Connor: Yeah I agree. And one of the things I was gonna say is that we’re seeing the tip of the spear, I think particularly in the RV segment.

And a lot of people are interested in doing this in the glamping segment, but the market just isn’t mature enough. There’s not enough businesses that have stabilized for any sort of roll up strategy in the glamping space. But what we’re seeing in the RV and Campground space is it’s starting to get a little bit more institutional and sophisticated.

And I think it’s start, I think what we’re gonna see in the RV and Campground space is it’s starting to follow the hotel industry. And we’re just seeing the tip of the spear with that. And that essentially means more technology for dynamic pricing. Reservation systems, marketing and advertising are some of the big things.

Something of a STAR report, which is what our company is really working on, tracking the data to give people better investment data. 

Yeah. So yeah, I totally agree with everything you guys said. 

Brian: All right. I definitely wanna dive into a little bit later in the show, but I wanna make sure we get to our special guests.

So let’s start with, can we start with a net from Ru Brook Resort?[00:11:00] Great Sand News National Park. I honestly, I’m trying to, is that, where is that? I don’t even know. I feel like I should know. I’ve been literally everywhere in America for six years, building the company, driving all over the place, and I can’t picture in my head where that is.

Annette: So it’s kinda South Central Colorado. Okay. We’re about two hours from the New Mexico border. 

Brian: Okay. I was hoping it was New Mexico cause we have been to White Sands National Monument. Okay. So I was thinking like the only two dunes I can really picture in my head are New Mexico and way up in Michigan by Traverse.

Annette: Yeah. I think we’re about maybe four, five to six hours from the White Sand Dunes National Park. I’ve not been there yet, but it’s on my list. 

Brian: Yeah. I took my stepdaughter there years ago to go sledding down the dunes. It was great. 

Annette: Yeah, and we do that here too, so that’s another thing we rent sleds out.

So it’s just, it’s a super family friendly national park. Cause I’m sure the white sand dunes are too. It’s just, you don’t have to worry about if you have little kids that they’re gonna fall off a cliff, which is comforting to parents. 

Brian: Yeah. I feel like that would be comforting too. Yeah, it makes sense. You should use that in your marketing. But so tell us a little bit about Rustic Brook Resort. How did you get started? What is, what’s it all [00:12:00] about? 

Annette: Sure. So we just we moved from Illinois, the Flatlands about six years ago. And we didn’t really know what we were gonna do, but we knew we wanted to do something Campground like in Colorado.

We’d always loved Colorado and my husband’s sister-in-law moved there and we went out to see her and she’s all the campgrounds in Colorado are, the one she likes. They’re booked, pretty much during the winter. And we thought, wow, that there’s that much demand here. So that kind of sparked some interest and My husband and I, we owned a painting company and my husband didn’t wanna leave his dad with the painting company all by himself cause he was getting older and then they decided they were moving to Tennessee.

So that kind of, they left us and that kind of opened it up. So we sold everything, packed everything up, and we bought a camper and just did a big two or three month kind of tour of America to see what was out there and just really learn what we might wanna do. And then we settled in Colorado Springs, started life again, started real jobs, got the money flowing in again.

And then we just started looking [00:13:00] around and within about two years we settled on this area. It just there wasn’t any, there wasn’t a lot of competition. There wasn’t a lot. There was demand, but just not enough places to stay. There was no glamping there was already primitive sites, there was already RV sites, but nothing glamping.

So we decided on glamping and then we started construction in February of 2019 after getting like our permitting and all that lined up. My husband and I both have construction background, so he was the superintendent on the ground. And then I was like project manager ordering, purchasing stuff and everything.

And then I joined him when we were getting close to opening. And I hadn’t planned on quitting my normal job cause I didn’t know if I’d be able to, but the first camp post team we had didn’t work out. So I had no other choice. And I had to just do it, and it ended up working out. So we survived and it was rough opening in 2020, but we made it.

And the scariest part was our loan almost didn’t close because the payment protection loans were out. And we’d already started [00:14:00] construction and already had contractors to pay, so that was pretty terrifying. But it did barely squeak by and we made it through the year, and even though it was a weird year.

But yeah we’ve enjoyed it out here and people, it’s really fun. We love seeing all the families have a good time and have, little two year olds who’ve never had a smore before, get their first smore and just enjoy the area. So it’s been a really great experience so far, with, not without challenges, but I guess if it was easy, everybody would do it.

Brian: Oh, yeah. And the challenges always make you better, with any business. David, Irene, all of us know that, you know what, what interests me here, and maybe you guys can speak to this a little bit as specifically what Annette said, and we’ve talked about this on the show before. If you look at the way, and we just did briefly, right?

Glamping has taken off so fast in this country despite, it’s been established for a long time or longer in the UK and Netherlands, as Dimphy said, but I feel like this is a common refrain, right? Annette, when you were starting this in 2019, 2020, as you said, there was basically nobody doing [00:15:00] glamping around the Colorado Springs area that you’re aware of.

What do you think now? 

Annette: We didn’t look so much in Colorado Springs. So we’re about two and a half we’re about three hours. 

Brian: I apologize, but where you are now?

That’s what I’m asking. 

Annette: Yeah right now it, I feel like 2021 alerted people a little bit, I guess falsely that the Camping industry is huge and it is big, but it’s not 2021 big.

So we’ve gotten a big influx of people that want to basically come, like if I had a. A dollar for every person that came here and said, I wanna do what you are doing. Like I have a lot of dollars. So many people wanna do it now. They almost think it’s the new get rich quick scheme. And it’s certainly not that it’s so much work.

It’s so stressful. It has its moments where it’s great. 

Brian: I saw a YouTube video where I can make a million dollars overnight. 

Annette: Yeah, it was so easy and everything was perfect and it always sunshine. So we’ve actually had, I think we’ve got three approved glamp grounds cuz I’m on the planning committee also in our county.[00:16:00] 

We’ve got three of them approved to build and I don’t know if they all will build, but I do know if they all do build they won’t all make it cuz there’s definitely not enough inventory to go around to three new places cuz that would probably triple the inventory we have now. So it’s a little concerning and like I said, just cuz they’re approved to build doesn’t mean they will.

But I do think 2020 was a false high and we have to get our, get a grasp on what. I guess what the demand really is moving forward. 

Brian: So this is an interesting topic, and maybe Connor, you can speak to this, right? Because we’ve talked about this before, like I think we’re mostly all in agreeance here.

That 2021, even into a little bit into 2022 is an outlier, but is that market really not there? Or is it just shifting and will it come back or will it like I don’t think we’re ever gonna have a blowout year, like 2021 and 2022 again, as far as percentage up over year before. But I do think there’s more of an audience there, and it’s growing every month, every year who are interested in glamping and alternative accommodations.

So can we get [00:17:00] back to that level even without that percentage increase eventually? 

Connor: I think the big question is how is 2022 and 2023 compared to 2019 is the big question. Yeah. To tell you the more normalized, trend line of the industry. And my sense in speaking with owners is that it is, again, there’s not that many glam sites that, had a normal year in 2019 and have that many years of operational history just to see that trend line.

But my sense is 2022 and 2023 will be above 2019 is but I would be curious from like Irene or David, from what you’re seeing in the market in terms of looking at any historicals if you think that’s the case as well. 

You are right. And I want David and Irene to answer that briefly, but you are right.

Brian: There’s very, there’s less history in the glamping market of 2019 than there is with RV and campgrounds to compare with. Anything to add? David and Irene? 

Irene: I can talk about it cuz I was operating in 2019 and I’m operating in 2023. And I [00:18:00] think gosh, Annette, I can empathize with what you look at.

I sit on a planning commission too. I work with zoning, helping people talk about how to get their space special use permits. I’m seeing national brands move into the area. I’m seeing national brands struggle in the area. So it’s really interesting to see. I’ll just start with, 2020, 2021 and a little bit of even 2022.

We weren’t back to normal travel. People were still keeping their kids from school. You had a longer travel season. I think anybody that sits in seasonality is looking back at the seasonality and occupancy rates that they saw 2019. The typical, like I’ll use Michigan for example. There’s absolutely zero limited travel in April, may, and then June, once kids get outta school, you ramp up the travel season and then it quiets back down into October, September and October.

One of the advantages that I think the fields had was we [00:19:00] established a brand, not necessarily just accommodation. So for those that were able to establish a lifestyle brand, they were able to establish revenue in different areas and streams and curate and become first to market. Which I think perhaps gives the fields an advantage over some of the other ones that I’m seeing that are in the area that are already for sale .

Yeah. I think also I would tell you I take no less than half a dozen calls a week from brokers that are trying to get me to purchase somebody else’s glamping operation. And take it over. And I would’ve said those calls started at the end of middle of last year, and they’ve really ramped up in Q1 and are going into Q2 at a discounted rate.

I get nervous for the industry, for those that didn’t establish brands, invested a ton of money, have high cap rates, trying to make their payments, didn’t take it incrementally because now they’re looking at variable [00:20:00] rates at the six and 7%, and that’s just really expensive. And probably weren’t costed into the project with occupants re occupancy rates of 2019.

But I think the full picture won’t come until the end of, or end of quarter, third quarter, where the season’s kind of wrapped up and everybody looked around and went, okay, who made it and who didn’t. And sadly, I think it’s because. To the thing that Annette’s talking about. Lots of people wanted to open up, ramp up and their price gouging because they just have to make basic payments because they can’t pay the bank.

And what that’s happening is it’s causing other businesses to perhaps lower their pricing and then some are just getting washed out because it just didn’t establish the brand fast enough in the..

Brian: We have the economic headwinds too that we’re all dealing with and may or may not get worse. 

Irene: Yes. But here’s the interesting thought, the interesting area that I’m seeing in Connor, maybe you could speak to it, or even David.

A lot of them, because they were plumbed as:[00:21:00] like I’ll use the fields for example. We were plumbed and we could be an RV park. RV parks are still blowing it out. I mean there’s still the three RV parks that are in the location closest to me are added adding slots and they’re already filled.

So it’s did they ride the wave And the trend of the term ‘glamping’. And then everybody went, that was fun that we played that game for a little bit. We’re gonna head back to the RV Park. 

Brian: We’re gonna have a cliffhanger there, right? Because I wanna give Dimphy a chance to talk about her business because she’s kind enough, as you can see, to join us during the evening hours there.

So Dimphy, can you tell us a little bit about what you’ve got going on in Romania and then we’ll get back to that? Cause that’s a really interesting discussion too. 

Dimphy: I only started the campsite last summer, so 2022, so I cannot reflect on 2019. But what I can see is that compared to last year, we opened only in June and now I could open already in May because we didn’t have any constructions going on anymore.

So for me, it’s already a better season than last year because I have a longer term. But what I wanted to share about [00:22:00] Romania, since it’s in the east part of Europe, I get lots of different people from different nationality all over Europe. And I think that is the most fun part. And also interesting part about running a campsite or glamping, I have both.

So at the moment I have people in an RV and in the weekend I will have a clamping dance fool. So during the week I see people coming by with RVs that do a tour around Europe. And in the weekends I have mostly guests from the big city nearby. But then what’s most fun is the different kind of cultures, because we’re in the east of Europe, but when people come from the west of Europe, they have a different approach about Camping and for example when I look at my reviews, I’ve got some people, some reviews from German people, and if German people say it’s a good campsite, then all the other people in Europe know that it’s a clean campsite.

So for somebody that has a campsite or a glamping in Europe, they have to get good refunds from German people and then other people will also join the campsite. I just wanted to share that [00:23:00] nationality. 

Brian: So is the strategy then just open and then give a discount to all the Germans to come there? 

Dimphy: That could be strategy. 

Brian: It sounds like it would work. So I’m fascinated by I really wanna explore more of Europe. I went over there in December of last year. I didn’t get as far as Bugarach. You said you’re outside of. But I did go to France and Germany and Belgium and the Netherland studio went to Amsterdam for a couple days just to see the Christmas markets and stuff.

Yeah. But it’s something that just building my business, I haven’t had time to do. So it fascinates to me when you have European guests on to talk about the culture and how, and what we found, I think through the people we’ve had on the show is that the Camping glamping market is very similar over there as far as the ups and downs and the economy and the way people behave.

So I’d love to hear more of your take on. Have you done a lot of research on the differences between the states and over there, or ..

Dimphy: Not the different countries. But I mostly compare what I see in the Netherlands. Like in the Netherlands, if you have glamping, you really have to have a tent with a kitchen, with a shower.

That’s cold glamping. However, Romania being on [00:24:00] the total other side of Europe, if I have a tent with a bed, it’s already glamping. So the, it’s, it really depends if you’re on the west side of Europe, how far it’s been evolved compared to the east side of Europe. So you see, I think also a Romania is a neighbor country of Moldova and Ukraine with the war in Ukraine last year many other campsites saw degrees in visitors because it’s so close to Ukraine. Since I started, I didn’t see that. That going down. So I think yes, in general, you see the same picture in the Netherlands, Belgium, France, and Italy and Germany, because those are countries that have been there have been campsite and glamping for a long time.

But the countries around it yeah, they have more ups and downs and differences within the countries.

Brian: But this is just primarily, I think, an establishment thing is what you’re saying. So the longer it goes in Romania, the more it will catch up to the, or the west might be even further ahead then. But from a time perspective.

Dimphy: Yes, exactly. 

Brian: Okay, guys, any questions for Dimphy? [00:25:00] We’ve got a wide open resource here for Europe and Romania I think is fascinating to do some comparisons to Connor, David, Irene, Annette, even.

Connor: What are you finding that guests are most excited about? Or if you were to redevelop your property now? Now that you have a season under your belt, is there anything that you would’ve changed? Like with bathrooms or with food or anything like that, or amenities?

Dimphy: What I find is that my facilities are good. People are surprised how good it is. However, it’s very hilly because it’s in wine area and I want to have flat spaces. But when I tried to explain that to the local people that we need RVs and I need to have like flat spaces for the RVs to park, they really didn’t understand.

So I tried it this summer again, and now I have some flat spaces, but they are too small. So when people come with an RV, they still park it on the nuts of flat spaces to get them flat again. So that’s something for next year. I want more flat spaces so that I can have more RVs, but also the [00:26:00] climate change is really noticeable here as well.

I have a drill in the ground that supplies me for water but it’s just not enough. For when my campsite is completely full. So I try to get a connection with the water company, but also the water company doesn’t always have water. So the village near my campsite sometimes for two or three days doesn’t have water.

That’s also something for next winter I need to prepare to, to have more water and to see how I get that. 

Brian: Now, when you talk about the paved campsites and getting a approval is what it sounds like, right? Is that a planning issue? Is that a, you have to go and convince them or is it.. 

Dimphy: I have a local mayor and he likes everything. He’s fine with everything. Also, I don’t have to pay tourist tax in the village. The local council can decide. And in this village you don’t have to pay tourist tax. So I’m really happy with that. 

Brian: Be careful. Everybody from America is about to come over there and open a glamping place.

Dimphy: Yeah, they could it’s in Europe, so Americans are not allowed to buy lens, I think, in Romania. Okay. That might be pretty fake then. All right.[00:27:00] But no if I tell my the local workers that build everything here, they don’t understand why I want it flat and how large it need to be.

So when I ask them to make something of baton of cement, they can do it. But I, when I wa just ask them to make the ground flats, they don’t understand why and how big it has to be. So that’s something I need to spend more time on for this winter. 

Brian: Where do you see yourself, like in an ideal world being in five years with your 

David: campsite?

Dimphy: At the moment we have 30,000 square meters. And I have only like 20 to 30 guests, and that’s what I like because I want people to have privacy and that is also calm and people can really re relax. So I don’t think I wanna change that much. I just wanna be more flexible in having different kind of customers as I see it now.

The weekends, the glamping tents are full, but during the week I would like to have more people with RV or with their own tents. So just the flexibility to get more different kind of guests and in the end, more guests. That’s what I would like to see [00:28:00] in a few years. 

Brian: Awesome. Thank you. And please feel free to say, I dunno if you want or you can leave cuz it’s late at night.

It’s up to you. So the last question I wanna ask you before you go is just and I’m trying to pivot back to the discussion we had right with finances and the changing in behavior and whether businesses are gonna succeed or not. Have you seen that kind of economic climate over in Europe as well?

Dimphy: Yes. The inflation is really high and especially in Romania. If I look at the local economy, the differences between the people that have a normal job and the people that have a good paying job is only increasing. So the kind of project that I’m doing now will become less and less affordable to the general Romanian.

And I try to invest as much as possible in local people. But I see the gap growing and I hope if I maybe ever need to leave Romania or if I need to sell it, I would like to be able to sell it to local people that can then take it as a business. But it seems more difficult. 

Brian: All right, let’s open this let’s open this store guys.

Irene, I think pitched do you wanna repeat your question, Irene? Just to David and Connor. You’d asked them to [00:29:00] weigh in on, I think the people surviving through September, I believe. 

Irene: That’s do and gloom. No, but I wondered if, they’re seeing some of the same things that I’m seeing or getting approached.

Again, maybe, and it could just be the natural volume of lamping operations have come to the three to five year time horizon where people are wanting to figure out what their exit looks like. Or are you finding those that were like, Hey, listen, we did this thinking that from a financing perspective we were gonna do it with a variable rate.

And now we’re sitting in a position where just the numbers just don’t make sense, like they did in 2018. What? 2019? We’re getting ready to, unload and move on to something else, another investment that may be, nope, owner operated as a little bit of a different investment than perhaps somebody who looked at it as if it was a financial investment.

David: Yeah, just to add my 2 cents to that topic. There’s so many layers to that, Irene. There’s, there’s interest rates. What do you do if you’re on a floating rate loan? And it, it doesn’t really matter where you are in the real estate world, even, even in [00:30:00] multifamily apartment buildings, which, have long been thought of as the most blue chip rock solid food group in the real estate world.

Plenty of folks in that business have been blown up really in the last year because businesses were over, levered rates went up and, people can’t afford debt service anymore in the hotel industry. It’s, it’s the same story. The fundamentals in the hotel industry are still really strong.

Travel is looking good. There’s real constraints on new supply now, but again, that doesn’t really matter if your debt service costs have doubled or tripled just because you were on a floating rate loan and you had too much leverage. So I think there’s some element to what’s happened in the world in the last year that’s affecting everyone in this, real estate ecosystem regardless of whether you are, glamping or Camping or hotel or whatever.

In glamping there’s other layers to it. Clearly, the [00:31:00] barriers to entry are to, to creating a new glamping business or a lot lower than building a new hotel. And I think, Irene, as you’ve seen or described, I think that dynamic has played out in a lot of other markets where it’s probably a lot of folks who have come into the space and didn’t really have a business model that could necessarily survive.

Like this higher interest rate environment. And then on top of all of that, we’ve just got, this other dynamic at play now, which is that, as you talked about before, Connor, demand is, demand is softening in certain parts of our industry. And I think that’s, that shouldn’t really be a surprise.

We all, as you guys have said, I think everyone who had thought about this carefully probably recognized that 2021 may not have been, the best year to set your expectations to. So I think there’s a lot of, we are at an interesting point now, but I think from my point of view it’s the same thing that I’ve been saying about glamping for, for [00:32:00] probably two years, which is that we, this space is new.

There’s a lot of really fantastic reasons to be excited about it. But we are quickly exiting the period of the glamping business where just being a novelty is enough in my point of view. Yeah. And I think the folks that are gonna succeed from here on out are the folks that are building resilient businesses that are, built for a normal cycle.

Not, and not for, the kind of feverish and hopefully once in a lifetime type situation that we’re all living in in 2020, 2021. 

Brian: And that’s where everything goes, right? Every single business goes that way. It’s the people who are patient, who build something, who research it, who brand it like Irene has, who are the ones who will succeed long term.

It’s never the people who just rush into the goldmine and then rush into the next thing and rush into the right. 

David: Yep. Exactly. And I think that’s, that’s where we are now. But look, I also, let’s not lose sight of the positives, which are [00:33:00] that I think what’s happening in this space is becoming more and more relevant with every passing day.

I think, you think about what’s going on this year, the development of AI technology, the digital world. I’m more convinced than ever that we are looking at a future where genuine connections with the natural, tangible world are gonna become more and more valuable to people. And I think people who are building great experiences that allow folks to connect with the outdoors are gonna be the winners in this next era in the tourism cycle.

I just think that we have to, we’ve exited the phase where you know, like the half-baked business plan is okay because there’s no else for people to go. We’re entering into a new, a new normal. Now people are able to travel in Italy again for the summer if they want to, and they’re financially inclined to do so the requirement to build a durable business is that’s coming more and more into [00:34:00] focus, but the, I think the long term story, the demand story behind this space is stronger than ever. 

Annette: I have a little bit to add to this, if I may. Yeah, go ahead. As far as just from a, from my perspective and what we’ve dealt with, I think another reason people decide to sell they have this dream of doing this.

They don’t foresee it’s rose colored glasses. So they’re just thinking of all the awesome stuff that’s gonna happen and all the happy guests and all the great employees and all the beautiful weather and all the money. They’re thinking of that. And then when reality strikes and it’s raining and all their employees quit and they’ve got a rotten egg to deal with, with an employee to fire and they’ve got unhappy guests cuz they saw a spider and all those things pile up, all of a sudden they realize this isn’t fun anymore.

I came here to have fun. I don’t wanna do this anymore and I just want out. And pretty much every year we go through about a month where we wanna sell it too. We haven’t, but we, I get the [00:35:00] sentiment. So I think that. That happens when you operate your own business the honeymoon phase leaves and you realize it’s not all fun and games.

Brian: Yeah. I think that’s something every business owner goes to, right? When at the beginning I don’t, it was so long ago, and I’m so old that my memories faded and I don’t remember it, but I’m sure at some point I went through that phase right when I was starting Insider Perks. But that, that, I think everything’s gonna be perfect because that’s what on, Instagram and social media and YouTube and everywhere else.

Just start a business and all of a sudden you’ll have a private jet and everything will be wonderful and you’ll get millions of dollars. And what, and it’s for the very reason that we talked about before, it’s not all roses like it can be at the end or even a lot of the times during the path, but you have to be willing to take the punches along with the roses.

Irene: Brian, I think me and Annette need to start a support group. It’s like the owner-operated support group. What was the craziest thing that happened this week? And because, it’s interesting. That’s the, one of the things that, and actually I’m gonna find this article and I’m gonna share it with you all because, David, you hit the nail on the head.[00:36:00] 

Really what it boiled down to was in these areas that saw this massive growth, really the test, what has stood the test of time has been incredibly hospitable. Owner operators, right? That built the business because they built the business for them and a lifestyle that they wanted to live. And then what they did was they said, okay, this is what I’m gonna do the very best that I can.

It’s gonna be mine. I’m gonna own it and hand it on to the next generation. And those are the ones that 40, 60 years later are still the ones that are in operation. Because, and again, to, to Brian probably Connor, everybody’s point, starting a business is nerve-wracking. Whether it’s investment, it’s consulting it’s all nerve-wracking cuz you’re putting your whole heart on the line, I think.

But when you’re responsible from a hospitality standpoint, and Annette. . It is because you have somebody that’s already paid for the performance. They paid for a perceptive performance and you have to [00:37:00] deliver for that. And you have elements that you can plan for, but you cannot predict whether spider, I had a woman this week, I’m just gonna tell you this story, it’s hilarious and you’ll laugh, but 

Brian: We gonna ask you, you’re talking about every crazy week. I wanna hear your crazy week. 

Irene: Yeah. So this was her and I’m definitely afraid of snakes. I know this is the running joke, but I think everybody’s heard my story about the snakes and she was laying in her bed and she was, She said to herself, I bet today when I walk outta this tent, I’m gonna see a snake.

And it was like she was Harry Potter and wool a snake. So she comes in and she’s you’re not gonna believe this. I stepped outta my tent and there was a snake. And of course me, there’s nothing worse than hearing a guest say that yet. You’re in nature. We have nothing poisonous, all those things.

But I thought, God damn it, today’s a snake. Tomorrow’s a spider. The next day’s the snapping turtle the day after that. It’s a locust swarm. Following a weather, tornado warnings. It’s there’s just, is there anything that’s easy about outdoor hospitality? 

 No. 

Brian: How many locust [00:38:00] swarms do you have?

Irene: We’re in for, so this year and next year are supposed to be the major hatches. . You know how they have ’em like every 7, 17, 13? 

Brian: Not really. That’s why I asked, like I’m just familiar from when I was a kid and my mom made go to church and I heard about the locust Swarm, like all that. 

Irene: Brian, I’m gonna tell you, when you have an outdoor hospitality in your business is dependent on it.

You become a meteorologist, a psychologist. 

Brian: This is why like I’m just a marketer. I’m not smart enough or brave enough or whatever to own. No. 

Irene: You could totally do it. Every anybody could do it. It’s just hours.

Brian: No, anybody can do it. I think that’s inaccurate. 

Connor: I’d be really curious to hear the group’s perspective on market saturation and glamping.

And, Irene, I know you’re, you were the first mover in your market and it sounds like you were as well. And there’s been a lot popping up. Some have faltered and we get that question a lot from investors or banks oh, is this market saturated with glamping resorts?

And I’d just be curious what everyone else’s perspective is on that. 

Annette: Sure. I’ve got a little bit to say about that. As [00:39:00] you heard already, I do feel like our market has the possibility to be saturated if everybody opens. And I’m really concerned about that cuz we put everything on the line to open this and blah, blah blah.

But so it was a big concern when the planning commission just kept on being like, yeah, everybody come on, there’s room for all the glamping. There’s not room for all the glamping. So what I did is I contacted all of the RV parks and everyone that was at kind of core existing business out here and just talked to them, be like, Hey, are you guys aware this is happening?

What are your thoughts on this? We just all talked about how 2021 was an anomaly and everybody was seeing 2019 numbers, even though I didn’t have a 2019, but I knew it was lower than 2020. So we all just got together and we talked to the planning commission and the county commissioners and just told them, sorry, there’s a nap bothering me.

And just told them our concerns. And so what we started doing is collecting data. So we pay a marketing tax here, it’s 4% and it pays for marketing. I don’t know how well it works, but they pay for it. And so we’ve got [00:40:00] people employed in our county to, to try to get more people to come here.

Now they’re collecting data on the campgrounds and initially they just collected it on hotels. So if the planning commission said, Hey, hows our demand for glamping or Camping or V parks, they initially didn’t know. And I’m like you can’t just keep approving these places if you don’t know, cuz how are people supposed to do market research and, know whether their business can survive and know whether it.

Another one should be approved. So we’re starting to collect data on all the campgrounds on occupancy rates. So now if another Campground wants to come in, we’ll see okay, everybody’s at about 50%. We probably shouldn’t approve another one. So that’s how we’re trying to curb it here, to make it sustainable and make it so that the businesses that are here will survive instead of letting so many places just start and then, someone’s gonna fail.

And we don’t want failed businesses because that just leaves, it looks bad and, it’s just, it’s not good for business and good for the county and good for taxes and all of that. So we’ve definitely seen, we’re tracking that and we would definitely say that it’s similar to a [00:41:00] 2019 year.

And who knows how this year’s gonna be? It’s too early to tell, but I think that I’m glad that we all got together and talked and let the county know what, how we felt about it. And it did make a difference. Cuz right now they’re not approving any new ones until we get another, get a temperature on it. 

Connor: This is your local tourism and like economic board in the county or the city?

Annette: Yeah, the county, yeah. Okay. So they’re collecting that data. It’s private, we get to see it, the people that participate it and the participate in it.

And then they’ll also provide it to the county commissioners and the planning department when requested. 

Connor: That’s super interesting. So all the hos, overnight lodging, hospitality businesses in the area are reporting and sending that data? Yeah. Oh, wow. That’s, it’s quite a collective. 

Annette: Right? Yeah it’s a small area, so we probably have 10, maybe 10 lodging, indoor lodging places in five to seven campgrounds.

So it’s not a huge task force for it. 

David: Connor, what’s your answer to that question? [00:42:00] When when the bank comes knocking. Is it just market by market? 

Connor: It is. So it depends on a couple main things. Is there a big, demand generator in the area, right?

Are you next to a really popular city tour, a really popular touristy city or tourist destination or a national park, or next to a major highway or on a major traffic route. So those are the main things we, we look at on the demand side. And then we look at the supply side as well.

I typically say that there’s very few saturated markets for glamping in the US because the representation of glamping units relative to campsites, RV sites and hotels is still a percent of a percent. Like it’s so much smaller that I think people continuing to look for a unique nature-based experience, like a glamping experience.

I think that segment’s gonna continue to grow with supply. So I can only think of maybe two, maybe [00:43:00] three markets that are like, might be nearing saturation in my opinion, but I’m curious to hear what other people think about that. 

Brian: I think it’s interesting from our perspective, briefly, just from a marketing standpoint, right?

And from what the other guests have talked about, I think there’s so many different factors that are influencing this, either saturation or not saturation. And you’re right, there are some markets who are probably getting close, right? But I think it’s a question of is it saturated or are they not marketed right?

Are they right? Because there’s, if you look at the demand generation, like you’re talking about, if we’re talking to a potential client who wants us to market their Campground or their glamping resort or whatever else, then that’s what we’re looking at To run Google ads or do SEO on their website is what’s nearby.

That someone is already coming to the area to see, is it a national park, is it a river, is it a city, is it a highway, is it whatever? And then we’re looking at that demand for related keywords on Google already to see how many people are searching for it and looking for it. And I think with glamping, that demand is in some ways both Camping and [00:44:00] the conversion from, or the upscaling from Camping cabins or deluxe cabins.

And then also how many can we pull from the demand of the hotel market nearby. But I think a lot of people don’t do that marketing for one. Cause it’s really complex, it’s really complicated, or even though it exists or aren’t willing to spend on it. But then in, in combination of all the other factors we’re talking outside of marketing, it really is a muddy picture to see I think I, what Irene’s saying is very true.

I think we’re gonna have to just see in September. 

Irene: Yeah. I’ll give you just a couple tidbits. So in South Haven in our area, we pay a bat tax. That back tax goes into it’s 5%. It gets pooled with all the other accommodations. There’s no exclusion. If you have nine rooms or more you pay a bat tax.

So we have access to a lot of that data. I will tell you there, while you were chatting Connor, there were two things and I just wondered if you consider them as you’re having some of the analysis done. We talk about opportunity costs, right? So the reality is for an outdoor hospitality business, most of them do not most yeah, most of them do not run a full [00:45:00] season for a lot of reasons.

Zoning doesn’t permit it. We’ll just use, in Michigan you get 180 days of operation. So your business model has to be run during that time. Obviously, in order for the business model to make sense, your pricing has to be adjusted accordingly. And to add to that, some of the things that you wanna make sure is your guest is choosing you based on the experience and not necessarily on the price.

Brian, if nothing would be worse than me having somebody show up to a campsite because they’ve selected on price, and then they’ve come in expecting that they were having a microwave and something else because they were choosing to stay at a hotel. So there’s that. 

Brian: But there’s the marketing, right?

You have to set expectations appropriately. 

Irene: You do, but then you also have to price in a way that has your consumer choosing based on that as well. So I think I’ll use just in terms of marketing and getaway’s not here, so they can’t represent themselves, but I’ll use getaway as an example because they’re 15 miles from us.[00:46:00] 

And you know their team. When you grow up in an area and you’re very familiar with the area, oftentimes you work with some of the people that are running some other businesses. So you’re just intermingling and talking about business. But you’d be remiss not to see some of their marketing right now where they’re discounting everything at 45%.

So the occupancy in their locations is like bimal. And some of it could be pricing could, some of it could be location. But when I talk, when you look at a saturation of a market, I don’t think it’s necessarily a saturation of a market. It could just be the wrong product in the market. So that’s where sometimes the thought that you can just plant any product in any market.

Sometimes doesn’t make sense because the market, when you look at the market research, does the market demand itself to have an owner operator, or is it looking for a big box to come in because that’s what the consumer is conditioned for? So I would say in the area that I’m in most certainly I would argue that consumer is conditioned to look for the owner operator, not the national brand.

[00:47:00] That’s, but I would say maybe if you’re going to a national park, they would most certainly wanna be looking for a national brand because the way that they’re looking for it, they’re looking for it a little bit more nationally. Just some things in terms of.. 

Brian: No, yeah, you’re not wrong. And so then, but I think it’s also easier in an up economy, which we’re not heading into, to recondition people too.

Whereas in a down economy, it’s a lot harder to do that. You definitely want to start with a base as high as you can. Yeah. There is some reconditioning that can go on, I think when more people are on the road and traveling. 

David: Yeah, and I think Irene, just thinking about your property as well, I think you, you touched on an important point as well, which is that I think, like I, tell me if you disagree with this, but I’ve, I would think that, your property fields of Michigan induces so much of its demand because you’ve created something special that people created a brand make a, make an effort to go and visit even if they weren’t otherwise.

Thinking about gonna southaven necessarily. That thinking about, like SAT saturation I [00:48:00] think is a really important topic, for anyone to think about if they are embarking on a new business venture. But I also think that, it’s not complete, I don’t think it’s the wrong question, but.

I think for some properties it may not be entirely the right question because you’ve gotta thi this is not we all know that this space is not, it’s not by definition, it’s not a commodity. It’s not like adding one more or 10 more RV bays in a market that’s already got a thousand.

And you’ve gotta figure out like, do we need 1010 or is 1000 too much? So many of the successful businesses in this space are doing something that is by definition completely new. Even if it is, even if there’s other glamping supply there, what you offer Irene is a very different experience to what the getaway in your market offers.

And so I, I almost think trying to do a saturation calculation is maybe not entirely the right question [00:49:00] if you are offering something that is so differentiated and. And speaks so much to what people want, even if they don’t know that they, even if they don’t know that they want it yet, that you can almost transcend the whole like question of are there too many units already in my market?

Brian: You’re right. Saturation is absolutely the wrong question because you look at whatever business you’re talking about. Saturation comes from mediocrity or being average. There is always the opportunity to come in and invent something new, whether it’s the iPhone in 2008 or whatever glamping site you’re targeting, starting in 2023.

If you can give people an experience that you can wrap a brand around and sell to them, you can succeed. 

Irene: I would say I love when competition comes in. I always say competition sharpens knives. It really does. It, and I love it. It just has me going. Getting really comfortable putting the blinders on and going, this is the lane, this is the lane, this is what we’re doing, this is how [00:50:00] we’re doing it.

I’m unapologetic about it. This is the delivery of service. And under the process of field way. But I would tell you I’ve been able to do that because I started so small, 2018, 2019, and incremental pieces, never taking on too much of a project, too much, loan. I’m, to be able to say debt free and be able to make decisions from that place is entirely different than having to make a decision from shit the bank is called and what Bill is not getting paid so I can pay a bill today.

It’s a different position. But yeah, like my dad always said, pigs get fed, cogs get slaughtered. It was like always going to be a really small, steady build. For a lifestyle, not necessarily for a lottery scratch off ticket. 

Brian: And that’s it. That’s the it always works that way. Every successful business for the long term, slow and steady wins the race period.

Yeah. There are a couple exceptions. Certainly nobody’s saying but for the most part, the business owners who either know that going in or learn that through, [00:51:00] I messed up and not right, are the ones that succeed. It’s taken me 12 years. I’m not anywhere close to where I want, but it’s taken me 12 years and I messed up.

I don’t know, I still messed up 12 times a day probably. But slow and steady yet, like I have that pace. I don’t want to be the number one anything next week. And I’m sure you don’t either. Irene, you wanna be number one with what you do, with what your brand fits. Yeah. And the consumer will come to you.

All right? Yep. Good. Three, four minutes left. Anybody have any final thoughts?

David: I feel like if I asked question I want Connor to tell us what the two markets he thinks are saturated on. 

Irene: I was gonna ask too, but I felt like he would be too afraid to say it online, so I was gonna text 

Brian: No, don’t be afraid Connor. 

You already copped out in the beginning of the show when I asked you if you had anything on your plate.

So you’ve already used your one cop out.

Connor: Perhaps Zion. And then we’re also we’re also working in the Austin market and there’s just a lot of activity there and I don’t think either of those markets is necessarily saturated because you have such [00:52:00] huge demand generators. Yeah. Like Austin is a massive tourist and business location that people are traveling to.

And the outdoor hospitality represents such a small percentage of the accommodation. And then same with Zion. I think it’s, 4 million annual visitors, going to Zion. And so again, those people are, it’s in, national parks are the best because those are people going for an outdoor experience.

And so still, if you look at the percentage of glamping units compared to hotel units available in the Virgin area it’s a small fraction. There’s places where you’re seeing, like Zion’s one of the only places where I, you drive down the road and you’re like, oh, there’s a glamping business.

Oh, there’s a glamping business, there’s another one. So that’s the first place where I was like, okay, wow. Maybe there is a lot. But that, those are the only two I can think of. 

Irene: I got a question for Connor. 

Brian: Sorry, go ahead, Irene. 

Irene: Connor, what are you seeing? I guess if you were to give owner operators who are looking to start, as they’ve worked through and you’re consulting for people the different iterations of accommodations, what are you feeling like is [00:53:00] the ultimate accommodation that you would recommend that you’re like, this is where, what our recommendation would be?

Brian: Apparently we’re not done putting Connor on the spot. 

Connor: Yeah’s super interesting. So after looking at some after looking at the data across the glamping industry, the glamping businesses, and then looking at the hip camp data and looking at the RV data, although that doesn’t really count.

And then I look at cost, seasonality, and ADR domes are the clear winner every time, shockingly. And There’s very few notable businesses. None of the major brands are really using them at this time. So it’s really interesting cuz they represent a very small portion of the glamping units available in the market.

Brian: But that’s why I think they’re successful. We just talked about mediocrity average, so when everybody has domes, it’s gonna be something new. 

Connor: Yeah. So that’s if I was starting a business right now, I’ve looked at enough data where I would just feel [00:54:00] so compelled to use those just because every market I look at, or every data set I look at, it’s always in the top two or three units.

 And it’s most of the time they’re super cost effective. They typically can have high values or can be left up year round. They have high snow ratings, wind ratings, and..

Brian: That’s true that for sure. I think that’s a, yeah, and I think if I wanna take a trip down to Zion too, sometime I’m gonna have to go, my girlfriend wants to go to Zion and she’s never been.

But I would love to see how many of those businesses that are all over the place for glamping are mediocre or average or doing something different like Irene. And then again, I think some of those are probably not gonna make it as long as they think they are or they did think they were in 2021, 2022.

But it’s definitely interesting. I think I would love to dive into the saturation. I really appreciate you bringing that up, David. That’s a great thought. Just that’s the wrong question. And I think there’s so much to unpack there. Probably do whole show on it. But does anybody have any future thought or any final thoughts here before you wrap up?

We got a couple more seconds. [00:55:00] 

David: I I just wanna clarify. I don’t think it’s completely the wrong question. I think everyone has to do their homework on supply and demand. Everybody. It’s always, it’s a balance. And I think that, like you, you think about the other thing I’ll just add onto what Connor said is that I think this is a lesson from the hotel industry, I think is that, sometimes as a hotel investor you can look at markets and say geez, there, there are so many hotels that have opened there in the last couple of years. Look at Nashville, for example. But I think you also have to be careful sometimes.

Sometimes the supply story is like the most interesting thing, but sometimes it’s the second most interesting thing behind the demand story. And again, Nashville’s a great example for that. The market is completely changed and it needs a lot more hotel rooms. So I think, in this space I think you have to think about those sorts of questions as well.

You can’t be completely blind to it, and you can’t be, so I don’t think you can have so much hubris to say I’m, what I’m doing is gonna be so different that I don’t I don’t care. I’m indifferent to the competition. [00:56:00] Yeah. But I do think that there is, I think that it’s actually important to have a little bit of hubris in this space because if you don’t think that what you’re doing is differentiated to everyone else, like you should probably go build some apartments or something instead just go play that game of supply and demand in another industry. I think what makes clamping special is that it, like by definition, the people who have built great businesses in this space have done stuff that is differentiated and incomparable to the competition.

So I just, I wanna clarify. I don’t think it’s the wrong question, but I think it’s, I think it’s, I think it’s not, I think it’s not the only question. 

Brian: And that’s it. And admittedly, I’ve raised it wrong too, so I appreciate the clarification. I think it’s just there’s a danger with any question, whether it’s saturation or marketing or finances or whatever, of stopping with that generic question and not digging into the 10 that are sub questions underneath it.

Connor: And I think maybe to build on what you’re saying, David, if you. If you could identify that there is a market [00:57:00] that’s underserved in terms of supply, at least in the short term, it’s a lot harder to miss. Sure. It’s a lot harder to mess that up. Definitely. But then you could also look at it and say, Hey if I know that I have a differentiated operation, like the fields, I can go into most markets and I’ll be in a top operator.

That creates my own demand and stands out in that market regardless of how much inventory there is. 

Brian: Alright, we gotta wrap this up. We’re already you over. I wanna take some time to thank our sponsor for the show Horizon Outdoor Hospitality. I forgot to do it at the beginning again, but I did put up the banner you guys saw.

In the middle to give ’em some extra love. So hopefully they’ll forgive you for that. But super excited to have them as a show, as a sponsor of the glamping episode. If you guys are interested in management services, consulting, things like that, Scott Foos and his team are a great company. But thank you guys.

Appreciate you joining us. Again, Irene , David, Connor super exciting to learn about Romania and I’d love to have more of those guests on. So grateful to our team for booking those people, and we will see you all next week on another episode. 

[00:58:00]