MC Fireside Chats – July 31st, 2024 

This is MC Fireside Chats, a weekly show featuring conversations with thought leaders, entrepreneurs, and outdoor hospitality experts who share their insights to help your business succeed. Hosted by Brian Searle, the founder and CEO of Insider Perks, empowered by insights from Modern Campground, the most innovative news source in the industry.

Brian Searl:

Welcome, everybody, to another episode of MC Fireside Chats. My name’s Brian Searle with Insider Perks. Super excited to be here with you for one of those weird fifth week episodes we have once every so often where we don’t have our regular guests lined up who occur with us on a specific show. And so we’ve got just kind of two special guests here. Maybe three are going to pop in here, depending on how traffic in Paris goes on here. But we’ve got two special guests here. Super excited to have Dustin Sauer and Pier Togni. I messed it up. I had it in my head. So Pier is going to say his name better and introduce himself. Go ahead, Pier. We’ll let you go first.

Pier Tognazzini:

Thank you so much, Brian. Thank you for inviting us here. It’s great for us to be here with you guys. So my name is Pier Tognazzini. I’m the founder and CEO of Mover. Actually, here we’re proposing how to, you know, practice tourism just out of the path in France or around France. And so I probably think that we have a chance, you know, to discuss with you guys and discuss with the people that listen to us, you know, about new way of proposing tourism in France. That is a really touristic place, but there is a new way to practice tourism.

Brian Searl:

Awesome. I’m excited to dive into that. Sustainable, eco-friendly, stuff like that, right? Exactly, exactly, Brian. That’s kind of a passion of mine. I don’t know if I would say I put an emphasis on it when I travel, but I definitely want to be mindful of it when I travel.

Pier Tognazzini:

everybody just look into the way to maybe practice tourism that is more careful about the environment, because just traveling to Europe just spends a lot of energy with the airplane and of course there is kind of pollution. And so it’s true that the way to be and to have an option, at least an option, to be on France and choosing a different way to practice tourism, You know, it’s up to you after that, you know, choosing the, say, ordinary and traditional accommodation or it’s accommodation that is just made something strongly to be more green, to be more sustainable. But not only that, it’s also authenticity. Probably we have time to speak a little bit later, but I think that authenticity and experiences is something that people are looking for. Not anymore practice to reason like everybody practice with Eiffel Tower and Mont Saint-Michel or whatever. Just looking for something different, I do believe.

Brian Searl:

Awesome. Yeah, we’ll definitely dive into that with you. You can see this is a very professional podcast. My dog here is on my lap. She just doesn’t want to leave me alone. She might need to focus on this. I’m sorry to distract attention from all of you wonderful gentlemen. Dustin, do you want to introduce yourself real quick in Overland Van Project?

Dustin Sauer:

Yeah, yeah. I am Dustin Sauer. I own Overland Van Project and a couple other outdoor industry-focused product companies, Alpine Van Works, Pariah Fab. What we do at Overland Van Project is we build expedition vehicles, camper vans, usually sprinter vans, and they’re more on the high-end side, but we really focus on progressive design and moving the industry forward with those.

Brian Searl:

So this is something that, and Pier, if you don’t mind, I’m going to start with Dustin, because I feel like I could talk about sustainable tourism for quite a bit at the end of the show. Like not at the end of the show, right? But like more than perhaps my knowledge of custom vans is available in my head. So I’m going to start with Dustin here. Dustin, just tell us a little bit about how did you get started with Overland Van Products, I guess is my first question. Like what made you want to start it? when you see the other people who are already manufacturing vans and there’s a lot of customization that’s come on as related to COVID and people kind of buying smaller rigs.

Dustin Sauer:

Yeah, definitely. I kind of fell into it. I mean, I was, you know, my schooling is in civil engineering. I went into project management for a construction company after that, and I built myself a van just to have it because I wanted one. This was 2015. So long before COVID, long before it was Yeah, it was the beginning of the van life movement. And, you know, hashtag van life was really just, just starting to kick off. And so I built myself a van, you know, a $6,000 rig all in and sold it for a profit and did it again and sold it for profit and was never really intending to start a business with it, but did and quit my job. And then, Then the progression really became how to be the best, how to make the best product, how to push the industry forward and not just build the same thing over. So that was 2017, started the LLC. Obviously, COVID came in and gave us a hit of Adderall and kicked the whole industry into high gear. And then we’ve been Yeah, just keep moving off of that boost.

Brian Searl:

curious a lot about how the algorithms work on social media and how they’ve changed over the years and where our attention is going. And so I’m curious for your take on van life specifically is obviously a movement that extends far beyond social media. But with social media specifically, do you feel like van life and the way we perceive it would be different if that hashtag and community around social didn’t exist? Yeah, yeah, right. But would it be different?

Dustin Sauer:

It would still be there. I mean, it would still be there kind of in the way that it was pre-Instagram, but with the injection of Starlink, I mean, there would be these people who now have that ability to fan life, right? The tech people, the people like that are doing podcasts, maybe, who are able to have a mobile life as long as they have internet. So I think that still would have given it a 25% tick, but not the 100 to 150% tick that it really got with social media.

Brian Searl:

Is that leveling off now, do you find? And this is more of a, I want to get more into your business and exactly what you do and what’s unique, but just to close this kind of loop, is that, do you see, because we’re seeing that with the RV industry, right? There’s a lot of talk of this normalization from 2019? Are we down? Are we flat? Are we like, what’s the story and narrative we want to tell from a PR perspective? Or what’s really happening? I’m curious what’s happening in your world.

Dustin Sauer:

What’s happening is the market is flooded with a lot of RVs, you know, off the shelf RVs, Winnebago stores, things like that. And it’s also flooded with a lot of DIY builds from people who built during COVID because they were at home, they had nothing else to do. And they wanted to build their hashtag van life. And now they are back at work and they can’t use their van as much. They’re selling it. So we’re seeing a huge influx of vehicles on the market. Good, bad and ugly. And, you know, Winnebago is down 35 percent for the year. You know, the bigger The bigger guys are really getting hit hard. You’re seeing big discounts on the dealership lots. Um, even some of the rigs like storyteller that were basically impossible to get, you’re seeing $15,000 rebates and things like that. So definitely I would say plateaued and just like any stock market housing market, you know, it’s going to follow that trend line. Uh, even if it’s doing this along the way, it’s going to come back to that trend line.

Brian Searl:

All right. So tell us about Overland Vans. Obviously, as you’ve just described, right, van life has taken off in the last few years. There’s been a lot of manufacturers who have come into it. Some are doing it two to four to five vans a year. Right. We’ve seen those small people. We’ve had a couple of on the show. Some of them, I don’t know how many you produce, but some of them are growing bigger. So how do you come into this and how do you differentiate yourself?

Dustin Sauer:

Yeah, that’s a good question. So we do about 50 vans a year. So it’s about a van a week. They’re in the $200,000 to $300,000 range, so they’re definitely on the higher end. And we really push really high quality components, really advanced electrical systems, advanced hydronic systems with heated floors, all the goodies, and then just a really high quality build to go along with that. So you’ve got something that’s going to last you 200,000 miles until the van actually dies. Um, that’s kind of how we’ve differentiated ourselves. Um, I think that, you know, you see a lot of these smaller builders, a lot of them came up during COVID. And I think that they probably 90% of them are back to work now. Um, but some of them are, are taken off and some of them have been able to grow, um, off that COVID boost. So, um, you know, super happy for them, but, um, but definitely, I think I’ve seen probably a 20 to 30 percent decrease in the number of of, you know, boutique van builders. They’re definitely disappearing quickly. Even some are falling off the map.

Brian Searl:

And obviously, we don’t want to see that. We’d love for you know, if you have a good idea and you’ve executed the idea, built a company, we’d love for you to be able to stick around. But obviously, if the market is not there, the market’s not there or whatever that may be and whatever we’re going through now and whatever the economy is headed in. Are you seeing this obviously as a competitive advantage to you, right? If there’s less people to compete with you, and maybe not all the way at the high end, right? But are you seeing any of your interest in your specific luxury product being impacted by the change in consumer behavior, desires, or purchasing power?

Dustin Sauer:

Yeah, definitely. Um, you know, we all send out, I’ll send out quotes for 250,000 and, um, you know, people sometimes come back and they say, Hey, like, I still want your van. I wish I could buy it, but I can get this one. It doesn’t have all the things. It’s got, you know, 15,000 miles on it and I’m getting it for a hundred, 150,000. Right. And they’re like, yeah, I can’t, you know, the people who have the money to justify a new vehicle, uh, you know, the people who are going to buy a Porsche are going to buy a Porsche. The people who are, going to buy a Toyota or going to buy a Toyota and there’s nothing wrong with that. People are at different levels. I totally respect that, which is why one of our companies, Alpine Van Works, is geared towards DIY. It’s geared towards getting somebody into a van under a hundred grand. They can still get high quality components and you can literally build a van in a weekend, right? So one of the things that differentiates our company is that I’ve diversified into the product business as well. using a lot of the things we build for OVP and then allowing DIYers access to that so that if they don’t have, if they don’t need heated floors and secondary alternators and all the crazy goodies that we can do, then they can still get into a killer van, which I think is really important.

Brian Searl:

What do you think are some of the most popular products that you’re talking about that you might make available to other builders that you’ve really seen kind of take off?

Dustin Sauer:

Yeah, so we do kind of our staple product is our wall and ceiling panel kit and then our floor kits. And, you know, you can install that whole whole setup in one day and you can be, you know, in an insulated, you know, temperature controlled basically van. Right. We sell that to DIYers, we sell it to other builders, which I think helped a lot of the builders during COVID like kind of kick off so they didn’t have to take the time to CNC cut, fabric wrap, you know, do all those things. And then we have a bunch of new products coming out for like storage, soft storage, exterior components and things like that that are really unique and hit a part of the market that’s not currently satisfied.

Brian Searl:

Do you have a sense of, and maybe you do, maybe you don’t, just feel free to say I don’t know if you don’t know, but do you have a sense of, we talked, we have a lot of campground owners, private park owners who watch the show, that’s kind of where I came from, the marketing side of that, we do marketing for 500 different campgrounds across North America. And do you have a sense of where the people who purchase your vans are primarily looking to go? And the reason I’m asking you that is because we’ve asked that of other guests before who have made custom vans, but they haven’t made, to the best of my recollection, I’m old, I forget what I had for breakfast today, so don’t hang your hat on that. But to the best of my recollection, we haven’t talked to anybody that makes the really high end vans like you yet on the show. And so while their answers have been, you know, many, many of our clients will go to the BLM lands or the state parks or things like that. It sounds like that the people you’re selling to are more of the disposable income, like the $300,000. I’m still going to have a little bit left to travel the way I want or a lot left. Right. So are you finding the same thing? Are they looking to do their van life? in state parks, BLM land? Are they going to private campgrounds, RV resorts?

Dustin Sauer:

Yeah, actually. I mean, they’re they’re the same people just with a little bit more money, probably. I mean, they are they’re going to the BLM land. They’re finding the free camping sites. You know, they’re doing the research. They’re they’re scrolling Google Earth and like panning around to find where that road ends and if it lands near water.

Brian Searl:

Same but they’re doing that primarily. Even if they have more income, they’re not You don’t think they’re trending toward that? I want to go stay at the brand new luxury RV resort with the huge swimming pool and all that stuff. You think they’re more going? Okay.

Dustin Sauer:

Not a single one of my clients has ever talked about that. They’re always, you know, I get clients, uh, sending me photos all the time, which I absolutely love. And most of the time they’re at free BLM land campsites. Um, very, very seldom are they at an actual pay for campsite. Um, and then the other ones that I get, you know, which harvest host is quite accessible to everyone. So I don’t think this is necessarily like a barrier of entry, but I do. They do a lot of harvest hosts as well in between those BLM land campsites, which I think is super awesome.

Brian Searl:

And is that just more like I want any unique experience or I don’t want because because the reason I ask is we’ve seen just like we saw the van builders increase. We’ve seen that same over that last four or five years, we’ve seen a bunch of people come in and build these brand new luxury RV resorts with concrete pads and two swimming pools and water parks and all these things, right? Interest rates were low. And I feel like the way that the market appears to be trending, not everybody, but there seems to be, from what we’ve talked about with people who run RV shows and stuff, more of a consumer interest in the type of product you build, downsizing, if you will, from the huge rigs. And so I feel like that even is more of a danger to these overbuilt, sometimes RV resorts. Not that everybody’s that way, but some certainly built more than they could perhaps afford. Totally.

Dustin Sauer:

Yeah. I think that it’s a bit counterintuitive. I think that, you know, my client who’s spending $300,000 on their van, which isn’t necessarily a typical price. Usually we’re coming in right at $240,000. But, you know, they’re spending a quarter million dollars on a rig. They’re going to, if they want to go to the swimming resort, they’re going to fly to the Bahamas and they’re going to hang out at their resort, right? Or they’re going to, you know, they’re not all Bahamas people, right? Maybe they’re going to go to Vegas and they’re going to do whatever they want and they’re going to swim there.

Brian Searl:

That’s fair because you bring up an interesting point and we’ve talked about that too here that as you see this, whatever the economy is doing, there is for sure less people who are going camping. We know this based on the data that we study from a marketing aspect, right? 20% to 30% decrease in just Google searches for camping and RV parking. campground and stuff like that. So there’s for sure less people camping. And we’ve talked about the need to differentiate yourself through an experience of some kind, right? What sets you apart at your campground, RV resorts, whatever, even your state park to that end, right? Is it the lake? Is it the water? Is it hiking trails? Is it the lush landscaping or the greenery or the canopy of trees? But for an RV resort, it could be something as simple as this. I don’t think it’s enough anymore in the type of economy that I believe we’re headed into. to say, I also have a swimming pool like 20,000 other people do. Yeah. I also have miniature. There has to be something to your point. And that’s what sparked that is, well, I’m going to go to the Bahamas and go to a really nice swimming pool if I have that disposable income, because that’s a better pool than probably 90 percent of the stuff traveling around the interior of the United States.

Dustin Sauer:

Right. Right. And that’s I think, you know, you mentioned the interior of the United States. I think that’s right. My lap doesn’t make the best table. I think it’s a really good point. The geography matters a lot, right? Where are you right now?

Brian Searl:

I’m in Calgary, Canada.

Dustin Sauer:

All right. So I don’t know much about Calgary, but I do know that… 45 minutes from Banff National Park, if that helps. Okay, there you go. I’m gonna have to visit you then. So, you know, the RV parks in the middle of the United States are gonna be the people with the swimming pools, right? But we’re in the Pacific Northwest, 90% of my clients mountain bike, right? So if you wanted to have a RV park or campground that was more attractive to people instead of instead of spending two hundred grand on a swimming pool. Right. Maybe spend 20 grand on making some killer mountain bike tracks and some jumps and things. Right. Or a shuttle to the mountain bike. Or a shuttle. Right. Like that’s pretty cheap to buy an old school bus and shuttle over there. So I think that demographically But, you know, it’s the geography is super important, right? Like not many people mountain bike in Nebraska.

Brian Searl:

It’s fair. Well, there might be people who think they’re mountain biking in Nebraska. They may have never seen an actual mountain, but they’ve never seen a mountain. Yeah. This is fascinating to me when they come to the Rockies, and they’re like, yeah, I’ve seen the Rockies already, and they think that’s the Appalachian Mountains.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Yeah, right. Oh, no, no, no, no.

Brian Searl:

You haven’t seen a real mountain yet, sir. OK. So anything else you want to tell us about Overland? I want to get to Pier and talk a little bit to him. He’s over in France with all the Olympics and stuff like that. So is there anything we missed that you think we should cover? I mean, feel free to pop in. We’re going to have a good conversation here.

Dustin Sauer:

Oh, yeah. I think that’s a great intro. Yeah. I’d love to hear more from Pier.

Brian Searl:

All right, so Pier, briefly introduce your company. I know you did briefly, but just talk to us a little bit about what you feel sets you apart, what makes you different. And then you’re in Paris in the middle of the Olympics. Why aren’t you watching the Olympics instead of talking to me?

Pier Tognazzini:

That’s good. Yeah, because it’s a good opportunity to be here, you know, and speaking to people that probably will practice tourism in France, you know, so that’s good for me to be here. Yeah, so be back to Mover. What we do actually down here in France, we saw, like Dustin said, that we have a phenomenal changing of crafty tourism post-COVID. We thought it was kind of something that was old-fashioned, but it’s something more structural. People definitely want to live different kinds of experiences, even if they travel to France, that is a really touristic place. And that’s why I create Movert and Movert was actually done it’s from one side really helped the tourism offer of France to jump into the ecological and digital transition. Let me explain you better. Let’s say you are in Calgary in Canada. I come to you and say, OK, Brian, do you have a house on the tree or do you have a tiny house that you would like to rent for holidays? OK, you pass my algorithm. I create algorithm and this algorithm can help us to understand what is your level of eco-friendly or what is your level of sustainability and what is your level of authenticity. And then one time that we saw this level of your accommodation, we can, if it’s all right, you know, put in our collection, mover collection, and if it’s not right, we can help you to jump into the ecological transition and even in the digital transition. Let me tell you a few examples like, you know, wasting water, energy, you know, all these kind of criteria that can help you, you know, to just changing things. And often people that has accommodation, they say, oh, well, we have too much money to spend, you know, to jump into ecological transition. And it’s not true. You know, it’s not true. I give you just a simple example. Let’s say that an accommodation that have four showers, if you put a kind of things, I don’t know how you said it in English, sorry, but you put a kind of filter in the tube of the shower that you spend 29 euros instead of spent 14 liters minutes, you spend nine liters minutes. That is just a tiny change that made a big difference for customers, for you as an owner of an accommodation, and you come to jump slightly into the ecological transition.

Brian Searl:

What if I’m a spoiled Brad and I like my rain shower with huge amounts of pressure when I go on vacation?

Pier Tognazzini:

There is no changing for pressure. That’s interesting. That’s really interesting that there is no different pressure. And even I do have a friend that has another startups that they exposed with me in Vegas for the CES because we were in the French delegation of the travel tech in Vegas last year. And they even made a kind of gaming, you know, the fact that you not waste water. If you have, let’s say, the red light when you finish the shower, you have a free drink in aperitivo in the bar, you know, and if you have red, you do not have the free drink. So this is also a way, you know, to the guests, not to say you have to not use water, you know, just gaming with that. Be more manageable.

Brian Searl:

Something like you don’t think about this until you actually are forced to think about it and this is interesting because we’re I’m up here in Calgary and Not many people probably know this outside of well, maybe Alberta and Canada But we went through a water crisis here for like the last month and a half We’re like the big huge main pipe like busted that was feeding half the city and this is like, you know 1.5 1.8 million people whatever Calgary is, right? And so for a month and a half, we were under water restrictions on the inside and we had like be more mindful. How many times do you even like flush the toilet and wash the dishwasher and how much is coming out of your sink? And, you know, obviously there’s nobody coming into your house checking on this, but it’s a, you know, look, we’re all together here. Like we’ve only got. one plant feeding the entire city and it’s not enough water. We’ve got to do something here, right? Until they can dig up this whole pipe and repair the thing that a truck can drive through. So, but until you’re forced to think about it, I think many of us don’t. And it’s good that I think companies out there like you are pushing this more to the forefront. Is that fair?

Pier Tognazzini:

Yeah. So that’s actually you’re right. As soon as you’re thinking about regulation and force people, that doesn’t work. You know, I mean, you have to just try to put these people to consider this option, you know, and as I was speaking about the offers, you know, about the accommodation. But we also thinking about the guests, you know, our algorithm give us the opportunity to give three, four or five pine cones. Because, let’s give an example, you know, you guys, you would like to enjoy France, and if you go to the south of France, it’s extremely hot right now. And are you ready to be in a solar air conditioning and have 26 degrees? I don’t know what is in Fahrenheit, sorry for that.

Brian Searl:

I’m still CS2, it’s just Dustin.

Pier Tognazzini:

You know, but it’s just an idea. So if you are not ready for that, you will choose probably three pine cones of accommodation and not define pine cones accommodation. You know, it’s also a way to, you know, just also the guests try to let them understand that it’s the way to practice tourism that could be not just coming from the black to white, but, you know, there is mostly a way to understand how to practice tourism. That’s actually what we’ve done. And speaking about distribution, it’s an interesting point that, you know, you ask Dustin, what does the difference, you know, because we are a booking platform at the end, you know, we are a booking platform. And of course, in there are really big, massive competitor, you know, on the markets. But thinking about Airbnb, thinking about booking Expedia, they are biggest, the biggest, you know, there is no way to understand in a truly way what is and if is sustainable or if is authentic. There is some categories, but there is not an algorithm behind, there is not a helping, a follow up with the customer. So of course, we have less offer than our friends because it’s important to follow up. But it’s true that they are truly find something that is sustainable, careful about environment and once again, authentic.

Brian Searl:

I want to interrupt you just for one second because you brought it up three times now and I’m interested. I understand completely what sustainability means. What is your definition of authenticity as it relates to your site?

Pier Tognazzini:

Yeah, that’s a really good question. So you can put on the table a lot of things, you know, but our way, our move that way to be authenticity is the follow. If you want to come to France, Brian, let’s say in Normandy, You don’t care about to do, let’s say, a quad, even if it’s an electric quad, you know, around the beaches. What you would like to do is live an experience with the locals. We live an experience that is linked with the heritage of the territory. Let’s give an example, the apple with the seed, the Armagnac or the cheese. You can go and produce the cheese with the farmers. You can go to produce butter. We do have experiences because the butter come from Normandy. And that is just a kind of example. Or you go to the, let’s say, on the Alps in the south, we do have honey producer and you actually wear the honey suits. You go to pick up honey. You’ve made a pastry lesson with the French croissant made with honey, and you go back to Cagliari with your honey that you built and with the cakes that you prepare. You know, that is the idea. Just follow into the something that is truly authentic. And once again, link with the heritage that could be the history, can be natural, can be gastronomic, can be wines, you know, all these great things that we do have in France. And I do believe that we just can deliver to guests that would like to go away from this, let’s say, touristic masterpiece that everybody wants to go to. You know, that is the idea.

Brian Searl:

Well, that’s an interesting thing, right? I mean, how do you, so how do you, it’s very easy to pitch, I think, somebody who’s been to France seven or eight times and they’ve seen the Eiffel Tower and Arc de Triomphe and all the things that are the major tourists you must see in France lists, right? It’s easier, I think, to convince that person who’s coming to France for the seventh or eighth time to do the sustainable tourism thing, to go to meet the locals, to go to the smaller towns, to do that, right? So what’s the pitch to the person who’s never been to France before that you should I don’t want to say skip Paris, but you understand what I’m saying. I would prefer the local experience. I don’t want to miss Paris. I’ve been through there, but I’ve never stopped. I don’t want to miss Paris, but I also care deeply about connecting with the things that you’re talking about. I want to meet the locals. I eat organic food. I want to churn the butter. I love doing all that stuff because, to me, that’s, like you’re saying, an authentic experience.

Pier Tognazzini:

Yeah, it’s true that for primo visitors, let’s say first visitors, it would be probably a little bit tricky to combine this kind of local experience with this masterpiece of tourism in France. All the figures and all the data, Brian, show us that more and more people, and mostly in North America, and I say North America, I say Canada and United States, you know, they’re looking for something different. They don’t want to do waiting all the morning for the scrambled eggs 20 minutes in the hotel, you know. So that’s the idea. Probably they are all right to do it two, three days in Paris, two, three days in Mont Saint-Michel, Vallée de la Loire. or whatever, but after that… they would like to bring home an experience that is extremely local, you know. So we strongly believe in that and then also that’s why there is newest things that they would like to show in this audience here, that we create right now a package tour, you know. We create a global thing so you do not have to thinking about transport, thinking about… We create these package tours that work really well with the local agency, you know, in Bretagne And then you can make a combo with, let’s say, this iconic of tourism and local things.

Brian Searl:

And are you working with mostly glamping or cabin rentals? Are you working with van life over there, campgrounds or camping sites?

Pier Tognazzini:

Yeah, that’s what we actually propose. But we do want Brian also to open the offer we do propose the house on the trees in a campground or we do also propose a chateau, a castle of 18th century. So we do have a different option, so when you open movert.fr you will see it, the option if you would like a funny house, if you would like a castle, if you would like a campground, if you would like a van. So you have all these options because, you know, just experiences different way. That’s what we would like to do it.

Brian Searl:

Dustin, I’m curious your take on this just over here in North America, right? Like from a van life perspective, you owned your van before you started it, as you said, multiple times. And so obviously you enjoy the style of life too, right? So I think it, it lends to the authenticity that people dare I say, want to experience BLM land and go to the lakes, not necessarily versus the private campgrounds, but have some type of scenic. And I think this is why that people go to state parks and private campgrounds instead of one or the other for the different types of experiences. But do you see that with a lot of your customers that they’re looking for this kind of more authentic local experience as part of their

Dustin Sauer:

Definitely. But I got to ask Pier a question first. Did you say funny houses?

Pier Tognazzini:

Yeah. What is a funny house? Yeah. For instance, I do have an owner that has boats that are not anymore boats. They are boats in the garden. And he sleeps in a boat in the garden. That’s just a funny example.

Dustin Sauer:

I had to know. I was like, is this a house of mirrors? OK. Excellent. Uh, yeah. So to your question, Brian, um, yeah, I, I love, and hopefully I’m answering it though, you know, answering the whole question here, but I love the idea, uh, the peers is going for here. And, um, yeah, I mean, my clients would definitely, you know, that’s, that’s a lot of what they’re looking for. Right. So like I brought a partner’s host before, and that’s a unique experience every time, right. You’re in, Newburgh, Oregon, and you’re going to a winery and you’re staying in the in the vines. Right. Or you’re going to a brewery and you’re in all these the hops. Right. And so you wake up and you just smell these hops in the morning. You know, those are those are really cool experiences that I feel like are very parallel to what Piers is doing over there. I don’t know if they have harvest hosts over in France, but. Might be a cool expansion. But yeah, a lot of my clients will go and they’ll, they’ll go to the, you know, in Oregon, there’s this 200 foot fir tree that you can spend the night a couple of nights in. And it’s a whole guided, like you’re 200 feet up in the street or 150 feet up in the street. Um, and I’ve got clients, a couple of clients who have done that. So they’re absolutely looking for that kind of thing. Um, I am curious, Pier, what’s the, what’s the, what’s the camping scene like over there, caravans and, And van camping started over there long before it started over here. And you guys have innovative designs and many, many, many companies that build products and camper vans over there. Do you also have van rentals on this platform?

Pier Tognazzini:

Yeah, we do have. And there is a funny thing that I have to tell you, because Europe, you know, streets are really narrow comparing the United States, you know.

Brian Searl:

I just drove through Slovenia in May. Like that was, yeah.

Pier Tognazzini:

So I’ve been actually all around the Dead Valley on the last winter with my family in VR, so it was a really great experience and I have a massive thing because I rent it. I’m not used to have this big thing. It’s true that, yeah, we do have, they are smaller. And as you, Justin, we have a few of startups that are starting to create, you know, some kind of same business of you, probably smaller, you know, in a smaller way because they feel like free to travel all around France with no problem of passing by the roads, you know, because when you go to the south of France, really, really tiny roads. and be back to the glamping and be back to the offer and let’s say outside and the offer it’s growing up tremendously because people would like to live in the natural and to link with the natural. That’s also why unfortunately Letizia is not here with us. We do create a partnership with Letizia. What Letizia creates is actually We do have a lot of agriculture here in France and Laetitia created this kind of cocoon, it’s a kind of glamping tent, where you can just put it on your ground with no impact on the soil, any impact on the soil, matter of eco-friendly tourism and you know it’s a new source of economy for agricultural people and also for people that’s big house with a lot of lands and also propose this new way to practice tourism that’s not only glamping you know this is a really really nice because it’s really great beds really great furniture like you’ve done you know with the van because it’s important to offer some kind of high quality of accommodation, but at the same time in the middle of the natural, in the middle of nowhere.

Dustin Sauer:

Okay.

Brian Searl:

Awesome. It’s interesting to me because I do the same thing, right? I mean, as deeply involved as I am in the camping and campground industry, I don’t own an RV. It just isn’t something that’s in the cards for me. I work from home and I work 18 hours a day and it would be kind of a senseless investment for me right now. But wherever I go, whether it’s looking at staying in a campground or glamping or a hotel or wherever I’m traveling around the world or in the United States or in Canada or wherever, I still do find myself looking for those experiences, right? Like I’m planning a trip right now. I can’t say where because it’s a surprise for some people who might be watching this show. But like I’m looking at tree houses and I’m looking at like, oh, that one’s right by the river somewhere, right? And that’s really cool. that will make me pay more instantly. And so what I’m really wondering from both of you here, and maybe this is, and I’m a marketing guy too, so I know all the standard answers. Uh, how do we get more people to be aware of some of these things, these local experiences, the ways that they can do things differently? Because I feel like a lot of the problem is people just don’t know they have options because all you’re hearing about is the multimillion dollar marketing campaigns for the Hyatt’s or the Marriott’s And they don’t realize that there is an alternative that’s easy, like if you work through a tour company like you’re talking about, or have somebody help you plan the trip, or it’s guided with transportation included and all those kinds of things, that it can be as easy as just the same thing that they’re seeing to go to Paris or wherever else, or around North America. You know, the Florida or Orlando, like even in those states, there are experiences that you can book that will take you. And I don’t know that necessarily there’s a difference between Floridians and Georgians in the United States from a culture perspective that you would need to experience. I’m not saying they’re not interesting, but just the difference between those two, right? But I still feel like there’s something to be said for the locals and for the farms and for the fruit that they grow and for the experiences and things like that, right? So how do we raise awareness for more of these people? Because what we’re doing is working through platforms like Mover, but it’s not necessarily working perhaps as fast as it could, right?

Dustin Sauer:

So what do you guys think? Viral TikTok videos, of course. I mean, The quickest way to get to a bunch of people, you know, I don’t. If I knew the answer, I’d probably be a millionaire.

Brian Searl:

Well, I mean, it’s just it’s just interesting to me that this is always kind of the struggle, right? Like you, you. whatever the issue is that you’re looking to talk more about, right? Like even if it’s something as simple as like I eat organic food, like I’ll run into a bunch of people all the time who say like, I didn’t understand that there was a farmer’s market down the street that I could go buy from a local farmer. And who cares if it’s organic, but it’s local. Cause I’m supporting the local economy. Right. And they just don’t understand that that farmer’s market is even there. And there’s an alternative besides the grocery store they’ve been shopping in with their parents for 40 years. And so it’s the same thing with this. You know, whether it’s the RV resort that offers the experience that you’re not expecting in an RV resort, because it’s more than just concrete pads, because they put thought into them, you know, access to the mountain biking trails or whatever else, or it’s the local farmer or it’s whatever. I feel like those voices need amplified more. Yeah, absolutely.

Dustin Sauer:

Yeah, I think the social media can level that playing field a lot. I mean, I did a post on my personal Instagram that got a million views. just by accident, right?

Pier Tognazzini:

Like, it’s possible.

Dustin Sauer:

I use the funny audio and the video is okay, right? iPhone video, but it, it, it, you know, a hundred X to my followers on my personal Instagram, which was not my intent because I only care about people going to my actual business Instagram, but it’s possible to make those videos, I guess is what I’m getting at. And videos, it’s the future. It’s the only way that we can level the playing ground with the Marriott million-dollar advertising campaigns, in my opinion. And finding the right influencer or having the right ad campaign or whatever. I don’t know why my computer is going dark right now. One second.

Brian Searl:

Is it sticky though, right? This is my question. And so like, I’m a big proponent of like, I understand influencers work and social media works. My big question has always been like, how many of those people follow through to the purchase? And I know a lot do, but I know a lot don’t. And then if they do follow through the purchase, or they get close to it, how sticky are they to actually for in your example, buying a van? Or are they just interested in looking at perhaps the same type of content? And yeah, I don’t know.

Dustin Sauer:

I mean, 75% of my sales come from social media. Okay. Which means that I sell 33 vans at $240,000 through social media, right? So granted, there’s a long sales process, all that stuff, but those leads come from social. So it’s part of the funnel. Yes, it’s, it’s, it works, you know, but it’s the funnel, right?

Brian Searl:

It’s everything. It’s not just the, I can hold a viral Instagram post out and then all of a sudden they’re following me and their customer. You have to then take that customer and nurture them, whether it’s your Instagram posts or obtain their contact information, put them in email marketing, the whole process. And most people, that I deal with on the campground side or the smaller businesses often don’t have the resources or time to put them into such a funnel.

Dustin Sauer:

Is that fair? I mean, I run all of our social, right? And I run four businesses. So it’s not impossible. It’s not impossible, right? But it’s a lot of work. Right. You said you work 18 hours a day, right? Like, yeah, I’m on Facebook groups at midnight, 2 a.m. right when I can’t sleep. Posting, adding value to the group so that they then are like, oh, wow, Overland Van Project just told me how to fix this thing on my Sprinter. Like, we should go check out what their site does. But it takes work. Like, there’s no way around it. And it’s really hard for somebody who’s not a business owner is what I found because I’ve tried having people run the social. It’s really hard when they don’t know every little thing to add enough value, right? It’s easy for them to create a video, post the video, put the hashtags.

Brian Searl:

Well, now you can have the AI on Instagram just answer all your stuff for you.

Dustin Sauer:

Yeah, right? I need it. Yeah. Yeah. I guess that’s the answer. It’s hard. Right. Like, are you here? Are you on me?

Brian Searl:

Right. Like, it should be hard, honestly. Otherwise, you have like two hundred and fifty thousand competitors who are like if it was easy. Right. And then nobody would buy. That’s hard again.

Dustin Sauer:

Yeah.

Brian Searl:

I’m not saying that as a camp runner or a small business owner, this is the only path is to be in Facebook groups that I don’t think you are either at 12 o’clock or two o’clock. But you’ve got to be willing to either put in the time or hire somebody who can put in the time. And like you said, it has to be done with thought and care. But yeah, I mean, it’s hard for me. People talk to me all the time. I’m an overnight success 15 years in the making, right? It doesn’t happen overnight. And so I’ve been working 18 hours a day for 15 years and that’s why I’m not successful. I don’t consider myself successful, but I’ve had some success, I guess. You’re on the road, right? Yeah, I mean something like that, yeah. But I’m always on the road, right? And I’m always leveling up and that’s because I like what I do. Just like you when you find a new component for a van or Peter, when you find a new property or a new technology, you want to integrate into mover like this is our passion. And so even though we’re done with the work up until that point, we’re like, Oh, look, shiny new thing. And then we start all over again.

Pier Tognazzini:

And if I can add something, Brian, it’s interesting when you mentioned, you know, then of course, thinking about Airbnb or Expedia or booking, you know, they mean that they have, you know, thousands of thousands of dollars, you know, to spend in advertising and so on. No way that me and my company that is really tiny, tiny competes with them. So you have to be a little bit smarter, try to do something quite different, then approach different. And of course, we not have the same results. So it’s like you say, hours and hours and hours of work and probably If I can add, also, we do have hubs with medias. Medias love the idea. When I’ve been at the CES in Vegas, we came to Vegas with 10 startups coming from the French travel tech. So that’s what quite Wahoo for us and my followers, you know, just jumping into the sky when I’ve been in the CES, you know. So you have to move smoothly in quite a quite intelligent way, you know, to try to reach in a faster way a field, you know, where you would like to move. Like I said, media and, of course, kind of fear like the CES, you know, or the fear where you have people that Because the problem is that there are interests for me, what I create, and I’m here. But the bridge between me and the things doesn’t exist at the moment. So it costs a lot of money to do that.

Brian Searl:

But the key is the interest, right? Because you don’t need to, most small businesses, same with Dustin, right? Like you don’t need to reach 2 million people. You need to reach 33 people who are going to buy your hands on social media and you’ve got a great year and then maybe 38 the next year and 45 and then that’s your growth, right? You don’t need to Spend all those millions of dollars that the big boys spend because you don’t ever need to reach that many people at that level. You’re not for everybody, right? You’re for the unique customer that is looking for your vans. And so that kind of guerrilla marketing on social media type is much better suited to people like you.

Pier Tognazzini:

Yeah. And let’s say another things, if I can say that, if you, Brian, would like looking for something special, looking for something authentic, looking for something sustainable, we not buy to Airbnb. You will just follow the Google and you’re just looking for something better. You’re looking and you made some deeply research. And maybe at the time, because you would like to go deeply, you are my customer and maybe you can reach me. You know what I mean? So I do believe that my customers and maybe the Dustin customers were looking for something more deeply than the simple research and the third one that appears, you choose it.

Brian Searl:

Yeah. I mean, I think honestly, like most people are looking for that. They just don’t want to do the work, especially when it relates. And that’s not a criticism to be clear. What that means is what I’m saying is, is that you’ve already worked all day. You just want to go on vacation. You don’t want to spend, you don’t want to work to plan your vacation, right? Most people don’t want to do that. I’m weirdly obsessed and love to do that, but I’m also generally weird. So. But, you know, so I think that if there was an opportunity, and this is what I really feel like is interesting for the future, and I don’t want to, again, divert from too far away from the topic, but I think AI is going to be really interesting here, which is going to, like, tools like ChatGBT are going to allow you to plan a trip much easier than doing the Google search 20 different times to get the right keyword, to get the right blog to show up and then clicking and that’s not what I want. Back clicking again, back clicking again and spending hours doing that stuff. I think there’s again going to be a further leveling of the playing field between companies like Dustin’s and yours, Pier, because you’re going to start to see a fragmentation of both advertising and discovery of organic consumers. from just Google and just social to 40 different platforms, Voice and ChatGPT and Gemini and Cloud and everything, right? So I think it’s going to be interesting how consumer discovery changes and how much more small businesses can reach us through that and make the planning process easier, which I think, again, goes to our whole thing that we were talking about, right? Like, if more people can ask different questions in natural language and then can discover through that process more of the small boutique local examples of farmers and experiences, which naturally I think will absolutely surface the more your question is a complete question versus, you know, glamping near Paris or whatever. We’ve been dumbed down to type into Google for 24 years. All that does is I think help, right?

Pier Tognazzini:

Yeah, that’s a good point. Yeah, but you should do a deeper job of organic way to propose the offer. If you made a mistake to not explain in the right way what you propose, you will not cut out from the EI. The EI just go deeper and find mover because I do have a good position with EI at the moment, but it’s true that, once again, it’s a matter of work. If you’re thinking to put just three lines to describe an accommodation, you will be out of the game. So that’s another point. I do believe in EI, but there is a messy job to do behind, you know, to prepare the EI recognizer.

Brian Searl:

Yeah. Like, yeah, you can’t just, again, you have to put in the work, right? If you’re an accommodation part, just like you’re talking about, right? Some people are readers and they want to read two or three paragraphs to describe your cabin, they’re going to absorb that information. That’s going to cause you to get a booking. Some people are visual and want to see photos. Some people want to see videos. Some people want to be talked to through Alexa or whatever, right? There’s all kinds of different people. And so I think your job as an accommodation provider and what actually in a flip side AI is going to help with is, you know, write me that description, but make it longer. Here’s the information I’m giving you the facts and what’s in my cabin, but now I need it. three-paragraph form, two-paragraph form, one-paragraph form, three-sentence form, I need a description for my bio on social media, on Facebook and Instagram, come up with some examples of hashtags, right? And this is gonna give the small business owner those superpowers that previously only a marketing department at a Marriott could have. And that’s why we push this on our clients so much, and change is hard on people, but the ability for you to take your marketing into this area that was never before possible is crazy. I’m excited by it. for all the small businesses we work with and represent, and all the small businesses that you guys do and the people that you’re trying to reach. So, all right, let me shut up about AI because I didn’t mean to go there. I’m weirdly obsessed with it, as you can tell. So back to sustainability and authenticity, right? I mean, this is very clearly important to you, Pier, for Movert. I think it should be like, again, opinion wise, I think that more people who discovered this would enjoy the sustainability and authenticity if they were to discover it. How do we marry these two worlds together? And I know I’ve talked about. you know, getting more people in the ideas there. So I don’t want to go back there. What I’m talking about more is we’ve got van life. We’ve got people who clearly like to explore more of nature in the outdoors and be close to it and, you know, do so in a way that they’re not sacrificing some of their luxury in the case of Dustin’s customers. I think that’s probably a perfect audience for people who would also appreciate those unique, sustainable, authentic experiences, right? Yeah. So how do we merge those two and get more people? How do we get the van life over to sustainability? How do we get the sustainability over to van life?

Pier Tognazzini:

Well, I think, and Dusty, you tell me if I’m wrong, that people that are choosing to be in the van would like to be kind of, you know, freedom. Probably the first word that I can say is freedom. You know, freedom to be everywhere they want, freedom to enjoy. And when you would like to be, let’s say, out of the path, You’re looking for experiences. I do believe that the Cosmo of Dustin, the first thing that asked me if I’m Parisian, where I should go to eat where there are Parisians. This is the first question. I do believe that it’s the first. So that’s actually a simple question. that you are right. AI right now answer a little bit, but I create movement for that. I create movement to deliver to them this answer that is not only authenticity, but also the funny thing is you also enjoy the fact that you pollute less than an ordinary accommodation or ordinary experiences or ordinary restaurants. That’s probably, let’s say, the link that I can see. I don’t know if

Brian Searl:

Well, I think that’s going to be a huge benefit to you in the future of AI is that you have that unique, like the AI is never going to be able to dine in the local restaurant with the Parisians and under, right? Like that’s going to require a mover in some way, or you to say like, okay, I want to license my content to one of the AIs and get paid for it that way, or however that future is going to work. But yeah, I mean, I think that’s, it’s an interesting I think the people who are really in trouble in this world are the generic Expedias, honestly. I think in four to five years, because really what were they built for, right? They were built because Google sucks and because you needed something to filter down and find something better, right? Now when you can ask a question and you can get an answer, there’s less of a need for the checkboxes. It’s more convenient to ask a question.

Pier Tognazzini:

Do you agree with me the fact that your customers are looking for that? Do you think that it’s correct?

Dustin Sauer:

Yeah, I think our clientele is very similar. And even just myself, I’m the guy who on the plane to Paris, I’m going to say, ask the person next to me if they’re Parisian, what’s your favorite place to eat? That’s what I’m going to do. I’m going to ask every single person, what’s your favorite place to eat? It’s what I do whenever I go any new country or new town. And I think a lot of my clients are the same way. They don’t want the generic experience. Sure, the Michelin star place on Google that’s the very top hit might be good, but that’s not what we’re looking for. And I think I relate to my clients a lot in that, and that’s not what they’re looking for either.

Brian Searl:

We could have a whole discussion on that, because I’m the same way, but I don’t ask the people next to me. I’ll go on to, well, normally it’s Yelp in North America, but it’s not as popular in the whole rest of the world. So I’ll use Google and I’ll say, basically, the highest rated restaurant I can find. And I find that anything really over 4.6 on Google is going to be almost a really good exceptional experience. And I find that when I talk to locals sometimes, especially in the hotels, they’re going to recommend the safe place. They’re not always of the same mindset that they want to go out of their way, right? And so I’ll try to find it that way, but then I’ll click into the pictures and like for coffee shops, I’ll look for the, like, do you have a chalkboard or do you have something really cool? And like, what does the interior look like? How much are you paying attention to the details? And that’s going to tell me if it’s more authentic than others. I think it’s my opinion, right? I’m just saying that’s the way I am. I’m not saying it’s the right way. It’s never failed me yet. Well, maybe once or twice.

Pier Tognazzini:

But you know, on Uber, we do also have, you know, that could be simple, but always looking for that. We have the grandmother, you know, we choose a collection, a collective, a group of grandmother that prepare food for people, you know, let’s go to the burgundy, you eat the buffalo bourguignon made not for a restaurant, but from a grandmother, you know, so that could be really interesting, you know.

Brian Searl:

And once you’ve tasted that, Yeah, look it’s it’s again. It’s just that first experience once you’ve tasted that it’s like I went to Iceland to a year last year Feels like it keeps being forever. I went to 2023. I went to Iceland taste fish and Cheap like no fish is ever as good as like I’m sure somewhere right but like right there when you’re on the ocean Right, like there’s just no it’s been literally caught that morning and prepared two hours later for you like It just doesn’t taste the same. And once you’ve tasted that or the grandma’s cooking and you’re like, why am I going to these chain restaurants? I don’t make some sense. It’s the same price in many cases, but just a little bit more so. Yeah. I mean, I’m with you guys. Authentic, authentic, authentic experiences. And I think there’s, again, many of our people who watch this show or the RV resort owners, the campground owners, the place like that’s where we got our, our starts. And that’s where, who I have the biggest relationship with. But I think there’s a lesson in all of it for those people. It’s not that these people who buy vans and care about sustainability and authenticity are not willing to stay at an RV resort. It’s that their demand is changing. They want an experience. And so you have to think about the people coming to that area, what they’re looking for, whether it’s, again, back to the mountain bike trails versus the swimming pool, right? What do they want? What are they looking for? What’s going to make you different than the 50 other RV resorts within a 200 mile radius of you, right? And that’s the key takeaway, I think, for all those people is what is your experience? What is your story? What makes you stand out? What makes you different? Even if you aren’t able to build that, but you’re able to curate that, like the shuttle to the mountain bike trails or the putting together a tour package or whatever it may be.

Dustin Sauer:

Yeah.

Brian Searl:

So. All right, final thoughts, guys. Thanks for being here. I don’t want to run over. Oh, I do want to run over, actually. I’d love to talk to you guys for a while. But I’m pretty sure I have some other meeting that I have to get to. So Dustin, Overland Van Project, where can they learn more about you and your vans?

Dustin Sauer:

They can go to driveovp.com or driveovp Instagram.

Brian Searl:

Awesome. Thank you for being here, Dustin. I appreciate it. Pier, where can they learn more about Mover?

Pier Tognazzini:

Yeah, that’s a mover.fr, fr as a France, you know, French. So mover.fr and of course, Instagram. And then we are also on the X and then we are YouTube. So just you can find everywhere mover.

Brian Searl:

And when are you expanding to North America, Pier?

Pier Tognazzini:

I’m looking for this question, but I do have… I mean, we love France, we love France. I would like to tell you, I have confidence here, so it’s an hour. And I do have the government of Nevada, the government of California that we met in Las Vegas. They are really strongly, strongly interested to create a mover California. and move to Nevada. So discussion is coming on, but it’s true that it’s easily scalable with our algorithm. And never know, maybe next year.

Brian Searl:

All right. Well, stay in touch with us. Thank you, guys. I really appreciate it for joining us on another episode of MC Fireside Chats. We will see you guys next week for another episode. And thanks, Dustin, Pier. Best of luck to all of you. See you. Thank you.

Pier Tognazzini:

Bye-bye. Thank you. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Nice to meet you.

SPEAKER_00:

For this episode of MC Fireside Chats, With your host, Brian Searle. Have a suggestion for a show idea? Want your campground or company in a future episode? Email us at hello at moderncampground.com. Get your daily dose of news from moderncampground.com. And be sure to join us next week for more insights into the fascinating world of outdoor hospitality.