MC Fireside Chats – July 24th, 2024

This is MC Fireside Chats, a weekly show featuring conversations with thought leaders, entrepreneurs, and outdoor hospitality experts who share their insights to help your business succeed. Hosted by Brian Searle, the founder and CEO of Insider Perks, empowered by insights from Modern Campground, the most innovative news source in the industry.

Brian Searl:

Welcome, everybody, to another episode of MC Fireside Chats. My name is Brian Searl with Insider Perks. Super excited to be here with you for our fourth week RV Industry Focus. Where did Shane go? I was in the middle of my intro, and I looked down. I’m like, Shane, he’s gone. There he is. That’s terrible timing, Shane.

Shane Devenish:

I know. I’m sorry.

Shane Devenish:

I don’t think anybody realizes that, Brian. Everyone.

Susan Carpenter:

I only come to see Shane.

Brian Searl:

Even the guests only come to see you. So super excited to be here with you guys. We’re excited to talk about the RV industry and all those kinds of things. We have a couple of our recurring guests, Susan Carpenter from the RV Women’s Alliance and Shane Devonish from CRVA. And one special guest here, we rarely have special guests I feel like on the show, but Angie Dietrich, did I pronounce that right?

Shane Devenish:

You did.

Brian Searl:

and the Wisconsin RV Dealers Alliance. So super excited to have you guys here. Do you want to briefly go around? Just start with Susan, we can go to Shane, and then obviously Angie. Just introduce yourselves a little bit about your respective companies for those people who don’t know.

Susan Carpenter:

Yeah, so of course, as Brian said, I’m Susan Carpenter with the RV Women’s Alliance. We’ve been, we’re a 501c6, and we’re an association where men and women can come together and support women by empowering and educating and networking amongst ourselves, and to really kind of lift women up in this industry. It’s very male-dominated industry, as we all know, but we all love this industry. So we just kind of created this group. We have over 3,500 members supporting over 500 companies. And we do a lot of different things. We do a lot of education. Next month is Women’s Equality Day on August 26th, where RVTA, RVTI, I should spell it out, the RV Dealers Association, the RV Industry Association, and the RV Technical Institute, and RV Women’s Alliance, we’re all coming together in Elkhart at the RVTI classroom, school, and we’re going to celebrate that day. So we do events like that. So that’s what’s going on with us, and it should be fun and exciting.

Brian Searl:

Susan, I think we could push this forward faster. We just need to start a campaign and get all the men fired. Because we both know that men working anywhere is a bad idea when you could have a woman working there instead, right? I stipulate that.

Susan Carpenter:

We love our counterparts. We really do. And there’s a lot of men out there.

Brian Searl:

We love them, but all’s fair. One’s smarter than the other, typically. It is what it is. Facts are facts, right? How you doing over there, Shane?

Shane Devenish:

Well, not so good anymore.

Brian Searl:

Go ahead, please, Shane.

Shane Devenish:

So yeah, I’m Shane from the Canadian Recreational Vehicles Association up here in Burlington, Ontario. And our members are the same or similar to the RV Industry Association, manufacturers and suppliers. I’m a very proud member of the RVWA, and the CRVA and our show loves to support RVWA annually during our Transferring Camping and RV Show every March. So we’ve got great plans for next year, Susan, and we’re going to support you again. It’s always great to be on the show, even though I am a male.

Brian Searl:

Yeah, they don’t need any more of your money, Shane. They just need you to resign.

Susan Carpenter:

We’ll take his money, too.

Shane Devenish:

Our show director is Shannon O’Callaghan. She is a female in the face of the show, if that matters.

Brian Searl:

Of course it matters. I’m just messing with you, Shane. I know. Right?

Susan Carpenter:

We need more Shane’s and Brian’s in this world that support it.

Brian Searl:

Angie’s terrified. She doesn’t want to like, what did I do?

Angie Diedrich:

Hey, well, I’m Angie Diederich. I’m the executive director of the Wisconsin RV Dealers Alliance. So we’re kind of a newer state association, just started in 2016. And we represent the towable side of the industry because the motorized side of the industry is actually represented by our Auto Dealers Association here in Wisconsin, because that’s where all their laws and regulations fall under.

Brian Searl:

So let’s start with you, Angie. And I’m sure Shane and Susan will have some questions for you as well that are much more educated than mine are. I come from mostly the campground side. So talk to us about why was the RV Dealers Alliance necessary

Angie Diedrich:

Yeah, well, they hardly had any regulation or dealer protections behind there. And, um, there’s just a lot of problems going on in Wisconsin with, um, people’s lines getting stolen between different, I guess, different companies and things like that. So they wanted some, some laws to back things up and also to help protect their businesses in in like transfer and stuff like that from succession, because a lot of them were family owned businesses at the time this started. But now since COVID and some people kind of had issues with inventory and stuff like that, we’ve kind of come into play with a lot of bigger dealers in our state, which has kind of been pretty interesting. But yeah, the goal that they started with to get some of that legislation, we were happy it got passed this year, finally. So Um, they were able to celebrate and now they got everything that they hope for out of it and it’s going wonderful. So yeah, it goes, the law goes into effect October 1st. So they’re very excited about that.

Brian Searl:

So is it fair to say that. the primary role of your organization right now is lobbying?

Angie Diedrich:

Yeah, we pretty much, that’s pretty much all we do is lobbying. We used to do some kind of technical training and things like that was another thing they wanted. We’d have like Lippert and Dometic come in and do some classes, but since COVID everything kind of moved online and that’s kind of where it’s been ever since. So we’re just focusing more on the lobbying part and helping them out that way.

Brian Searl:

So I don’t know, Shane, if you have any thoughts, or you can contribute this, Shane or Susan. Obviously, this would be a great question to ask Phil, who’s not here, unfortunately, with us this week, but from the RVDA. So how would the national organization work with, like, are there other state alliances besides Wisconsin? Are there state, like, up here, we have Alberta RVDA in Canada, right? The provinces have their own individual RVDAs. Is that how it works in the states, or? Yeah.

Angie Diedrich:

Yeah, it is, it is that way. So yep, they have, there aren’t as many as we’d hope for. But yeah, there’s definitely a number, at least half the states have some kind of an association or like the whole New England section, they’re kind of under one association. So yeah, they they’re there to help each other out and protect the dealer’s rights and promote what they need. And they do a lot of, I know over in the New England one, they do a lot of camping shows, which is great. RV shows, same in Florida, their organization does great RV shows. So it does Michigan. Michigan’s fabulous with that. So, yeah.

Brian Searl:

And that was my question. Like, is the primary focus, like, like here, like, well, not here, but on the on the campground side, which I’m much more familiar with, the state associations in the United States will typically take on more of that lobbying legislative effort, because the national organization just simply does not have the time to go through every single state and everything legislature and make all the contact, it’s just impossible, right. And so that’s a great like, kind of one to punch to have national covered, and then to have state covered. And so I understand how that works, but then I’m also hearing like they’re doing some outreach for RV shows and things like that as well in some of the states, right?

Angie Diedrich:

Yeah, definitely. Definitely. One nice thing about our legislation is actually the RV Industry Association hired a lobbyist to help lobby with us. So this was kind of like a partnership to get this. these dealer protection laws into place. And we actually started with a model legislation that RVIA and RVDA had come together to, um, you know, they, they both had, had a common interest in it and had agreed upon. So we started with that and kind of tweaked it to Wisconsin and added some things in and stuff like that. And that’s how it came to be, but they were actually a fabulous partner and in helping us get this legislation passed. So I really like seeing that because when the, um, when it first started this association, there was kind of like tension between the two groups.

Brian Searl:

Yeah. I didn’t know what you did or what you’re going to step on their toes.

Angie Diedrich:

Yeah. But now it just seems like the two groups are working together very well and trying to help each other out, which I really like with the RV Technical Institute, you know, helping launch things like that, where you get tech training and then, you know, and so RVIA will take that side of it and RVDA kind of takes the side of getting the underwriters and, you know, the, all the different kind of compliance training and things like that. So it’s really, I’ve seen it blossomed in this short time period. And it’s, it’s wonderful.

Brian Searl:

And I think that’s one of the things like Shane, you can speak to this, right? Like that’s one of the things that surprised me. And, you know, I, again, I don’t know as much about the RV industry side, but when I came to Canada from the United States and first, you know, really started getting involved with it’s time CCRVC now CCRVA, uh, they keep changing their name on me. I can’t keep up, but, um, Everybody just got together or got along right like the RV industry and the campground side and the manufacturers and the suppliers and like everybody was just working together in this one kind of like obviously it’s never fully cohesive with nothing is right with so many people involved but Way much more cohesive than what I was used to in the States Just talk to maybe a little bit about how that is so beneficial change

Shane Devenish:

You know, everybody’s got the same interest, you know, as a whole. You know, some associations might have an interest themselves and, you know, often they have to put those aside for the betterment of, as much as they can, for the betterment of the whole. And I think that’s where Canada has been so successful. We all listen to each other’s concerns and we try to work together to kind of meet the common interest without sacrificing the needs of any one individual association, if that makes any sense. Angie, I got a question for you. You’re relatively new. What has been the biggest hurdles getting something going since the beginning?

Angie Diedrich:

Yeah. Membership is definitely, you know, getting, trying to get as many dealer members as you can in there. Cause some of them are like, well, I can get this for free if I just wait. Okay. So it’s, it’s more like trying to see the need of speaking as a large group together, but it takes a lot of people, um, to be able to, you know, change the minds of legislators and things like that. Because they do ask those questions. How many members do you have and how many dealers are actually in the state? You know, so they want to know how much you represent. So it’s that.

Brian Searl:

Yeah, because they want to know how much it’s going to impact the people who vote for them, right?

Angie Diedrich:

Right.

Susan Carpenter:

Oh, yeah. How many dealers do you have in the state of Wisconsin?

Angie Diedrich:

Dealers we have close to, well, Registered dealers from our department of transportation, there’s actually about 114, but campgrounds can also register to be a dealer, um, which is very unusual in Wisconsin. So they can, they can, um, have a manufacturer line that they can sell as seasonal campsites and stuff into their community. And people can buy directly through the campground that they like to go to. So about street retailers, I would say there’s probably close to 90, so.

Shane Devenish:

And how many are in your association?

Angie Diedrich:

We have about 45 in our association. Good for you. Yeah, it’s been a challenge, but it’s been good. But we’re starting to see a lot of that change because we have a lot of those larger companies or auto dealers, actually, who didn’t do RVs before but got into it during the pandemic or right after. Yeah, they’re gung-ho. And they have a lot of different, I mean, they’ll have, one of them has the most dealerships in our state. I think they have 11 locations now and they were in an auto dealer that was mostly in Illinois. So they saw the, you know, they saw the signs and jumped in in the right time. So.

Susan Carpenter:

I mean, I think that’s typical when you’re talking about percentage of how many joined you at the beginning. There’s some people that drive change and others that just want to sit back and wait. for everybody else to do the work and then benefit from it and either join in later or never join in and just still enjoy the benefit of it. So amazing job.

Brian Searl:

A lot of that is some of them don’t even see that they’re being impacted by it either, right? Sometimes you can have the association call or visit or email and then, oh, I didn’t even realize this was happening and this is impacting me and then they’ll join and they’ll care. You get other people who just, you have to, you have to literally, it’s like, it’s like waiting. That’s the whole, we’re not going to get into the discussion. Right. But the whole AI, like most people just aren’t going to pay attention to it until they get laid off from their job and replaced by AI, no matter how much you kill them. Right.

Susan Carpenter:

Yeah.

Brian Searl:

It takes initiative. So like we’ve got, we’ve got, I’ve got all kinds of crazy ideas for ANG if you want them. Like, I mean, membership drives great. Like, have you ever considered, like, you’ve talked to a dealer and they’re like, well, I haven’t had anything was stolen, right? Or what you said, like stolen.

Angie Diedrich:

It was just lines like, um, manufacturers that give a line to another client across the street who would sell more and it would be like a week notice. So this dealer had invested a lot of advertising and everything into it. And then now all of a sudden they can’t sell that line. So, I mean, it. That’s what I mean by stolen.

Brian Searl:

You set up like a gang of robbers or something.

Angie Diedrich:

No, no, that’s just the catalytic.

Brian Searl:

And then call the next day and be like, hey, have you ever had anything stolen from you? The Foundation is here to protect you. Really? You have? It happened yesterday?

Susan Carpenter:

Yeah, well your law kind of protects a certain territory kind of like auto dealerships that you know if they sell within a you know you sell this person and they’re protected within so many mile radius, right?

Angie Diedrich:

Yes, yeah well to a point we just didn’t have where a manufacturer could take away a line just, you know, without notice in there, because there was no written agreements required and things like that. So now there’s provisions in there for you have to have a 90 day notice and give a reason and give the dealer a right to cure and things like that.

Susan Carpenter:

So yeah, to take it away and give it to the guy across the street in a week’s notice is pretty bad. Shame on them. Shame on them. Yeah, yeah.

Angie Diedrich:

Well, you see the sales person’s trying to make the sale, so.

Brian Searl:

What if you’re selling a line and then you realize that that manufacturer is not making good quality products? Can you just like in the middle of the night dump your inventory on the other dealer’s lot and just? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Angie Diedrich:

No, the protections go both ways in Wisconsin, so the manufacturer has to have a right to cure too, so it’s a very good good law there. So that’s very.

Susan Carpenter:

So are you kind of leaving the, I mean, we’ve got. many states here, you know, and Canada, Providence is in Canada. So this may be a stupid question, because they don’t know a lot about this kind of stuff. But is that normal not to have that protection in a state of Providence? Or is that more of the rule of thumb that that is in place?

Angie Diedrich:

No, it’s Yeah, most of them do have some sort of protection, but they’re just trying to like beef it up and change things. I think about 14 or 16 states now might have similar legislation like we have. Um, they started in Florida and kind of tested it and found out what worked and what didn’t kind of adjusted things. Um, but yeah, there that’s the goal is to kind of go into each state and make sure each state has similar. Cause it also helps the relationship with the manufacturer. So they know, you know, what to do. Every state’s kind of cohesive, you know, it’s kind of nice because they’re not like, what are we doing over here in Oregon? Okay, now in Florida, we got to do this. And it’s, you know, it just makes life a lot easier, I think, for everyone. So

Shane Devenish:

Most of those agreements just set out expectations. We expect or want you to stock so many and buy so many. And in return, we’ll give you such a big territory. Now, if for whatever reason things change, then I think it’s open to each side to kind of talk about it. But as far as I know, everybody Most dealers and manufacturers have some kind of a dealer agreement. I haven’t heard, and it’s great that you’re state now has some protection like that, because I would hate to, you know, and I’ve been involved in the finance and the things where, you know, some some dealers did lose the line. And then you have a competing dealer in the same city, you know, stocking up and how do you get rid of because a lot of times maybe you would get be cut off on on on your warranty, right? So, It’s really hard in those situations to kind of get through that.

Brian Searl:

Is there a financial incentive, generally speaking, for a manufacturer to move a line from one dealer to the other?

Shane Devenish:

Only if you have a guy maybe as an example one guy’s carrying Manufacture a and he has a dealer agreement and then he’s you know, maybe not pleased with that manufacturer takes on manufacturer B and then mostly stocks and manufactured B so the financial incentive for the manufacturer is to move it to another dealer because he’s not a you know, as manufacturer A, the dealer’s not kind of ordering some things. So that’s your question. In that part, you know, there is some financial incentive for the manufacturing movement.

Brian Searl:

If that is happening, right?

Shane Devenish:

If that, for example, yeah.

Brian Searl:

Yeah. I mean, I’m only asking because it just seems like You know, I don’t know where my train of thought was. I just lost my train of thought. Somebody was speaking by here. But I think I was going to say something to the to the impact of, you know, it seems to me like there’s very little incentive unless something is being done detrimental like that, because Like what is going to be different at the other dealer other than that scenario change? Like they’ve got the same, like maybe you have a rockstar salesperson, but generally it’s the same sales and the same marketing tactics and the same market. And that, and so that would really be one of the only reasons you would pull such a trigger. Right.

Shane Devenish:

Yeah, you know and I don’t think it’s in anybody’s interest either side to have any change because you know the manufacturer has some marketing that he does for that dealer. The dealer does plenty of marketing and that product develops a little bit of a following. So nobody wants to make a change and I think it’s only in a drastic and I would think it doesn’t happen. All that much.

Susan Carpenter:

I’ve seen some relationships go south, so it just becomes hostile. What is over? Who knows? You know, there’s just a disagreement between the manufacturer and the dealer. And I’ve seen it go pretty nasty at times.

Brian Searl:

But you know, that’s why we just need women in charge. They don’t.

Susan Carpenter:

One was a woman and one was a guy and it was really funny. You know, so the guy was the aggressive one and the woman’s just like, you know, proving my point. Yeah. But it was just a disagreement. So you don’t see eye to eye and you don’t always. I mean, it just happened, you know. So you just decide, OK, maybe this isn’t the right relationship. you know, for us, it happens. I don’t think it happens a lot, but it happens. I mean, it’s like anything else. It’s business.

Angie Diedrich:

Right, right.

Shane Devenish:

You know what I was gonna say, Angie, you know, starting up a new association, you know, you get guys to join, which is, you know, a big part, right. But the other part is, is to try to get more involved in the, in the board. And that’s often, It’s becoming harder, I think, these days to get people to volunteer their time. And as a new association, cultivating that change and the structure and having a long list of people who want to pitch from the bullpen is important.

Angie Diedrich:

Yes, yes, definitely. Definitely. Yeah. I think our big thing is we started with a really strong board, but just trying to get some transition and make it kind of like a wider network is a good thing. They’re, I don’t know, they’re kind of tight knit with some of their people who they work with, I guess, and stuff like that. So it’s a good, nice core group of people, but they’re getting close to retiring. So they’re trying to get new people up to want to take on that role. especially here in Wisconsin, anything during like the spring, summer, and fall, you cannot get a hold of them because they’re doing deals, you know, sales, all that kind of stuff. So yeah, we have a meeting. We try and get a couple Zoom meetings in, you know, even if it’s just to say we had a Zoom meeting. And then they’re like, we can meet in December. That’s it, you know, for our annual conference. And you’re like, okay, well, there’s Christmas. So I guess we’re meeting here.

Shane Devenish:

Do you guys have a show?

Angie Diedrich:

No, we do not do shows. We don’t do our own shows. There are shows that are owned by different promoter groups or bought in by some of the larger dealers and stuff like that. But our industry, we can’t afford to purchase the show from different promoters. Yeah, we don’t have enough capital yet.

Shane Devenish:

Gotcha. Yeah. Yeah.

Susan Carpenter:

So now that you said you’re getting a piece of legislation passed soon, congratulations, which is fantastic. So it’s all about when you’re an association or an alliance, It’s all about engagement, right? And the members, especially if they’re paying members, are going to ask, what do I get back? This is great, but where do you go from here? Do you have other projects that you’re working on that’s engaging you with your members that will keep you going?

Angie Diedrich:

Yeah, the next thing the board wants to work on is do a sales tax exemption for out-of-state customers. And I know there’s a couple other states who have tried that and have failed, unfortunately. And I know we’re one of the lowest sales tax states in the nation. So it’s kind of a hard sell. The problem just being is, I guess, when they purchase one here and they go back to a different state, they’re supposed to honor the sales tax. According to, there’s a Supreme Court case that ruled on that, about interstate commerce. But a lot of them don’t understand. And how are you supposed to argue with the person at your Department of Motor Vehicles who’s just behind the counter going, no, you owe a fee. I don’t get this kind of thing. So a lot of people will not buy because they know the state they’re going into. They’re going to have to pay an additional whatever it is, 10% or 12%. Yeah. And I’m surprised our dealers talk about how many people come from other states just because of the price, the sales point price of RVs in Wisconsin too, which I find interesting, um, how they just differ from region to region and stuff like that.

Brian Searl:

So, yeah, let’s speculate on that wildly, uh, without any data. That’s it. That is interesting, isn’t it? Cause I can understand like country to country maybe, but even that, like, I mean, even that like coming from America to Canada, things are, quote more expensive in the number of dollars you see in front of you but by the exchange rate they’re actually for the most part the same unless you like think of things like gas which have more taxes associated with them up here. Like, why would that be the case? Like, why would something rent state to state? What is the, because the dealer still has the same costs. So why would you want lower margins in some places and higher margins of the other? Is it because of the income of the population, the willingness to buy, like what would be the reasons for that?

Shane Devenish:

Yeah, wouldn’t it be more of a freight savings? Wisconsin’s pretty close to Indiana, right?

Angie Diedrich:

Right, right. Yeah, I don’t know. They talk about a lot of people who come from California. I’d love to see this data, the sales figures, but sometimes that’s hard data to get because they don’t want to share.

Brian Searl:

Well, California maybe with the higher, yeah, what taxes would be associated? Like California for sure taxes the heck out of everybody for everything, right? But I’m trying to imagine what else besides sales tax would come into play.

Angie Diedrich:

Yeah. I don’t know. Yeah. Wisconsin’s only a 5% sales tax state, so we’re real low for that. But yeah. I don’t know. Yeah, they find that very interesting, but that’s their big drive is to… Shane, go ask ChattGPT to speculate.

Brian Searl:

Freight. Go ask ChattGPT to speculate.

Shane Devenish:

There’s only two variable costs, really. It’s freight and tax, I think.

Brian Searl:

So I think it’s… But even freight-wise, if you’re saving that money in freight, why not just take a healthier margin? And then consumers expect the same price uniformly, except for the tax.

Shane Devenish:

Yeah. I don’t know. Again, can answer you there. Yeah. If you you know, if a guy could make the same margin, but sell it for less and sell more than

Brian Searl:

Well, okay. That’s true. And so that’s what I’m asking is the data there to support that. And if it is like, I’m sure it must be, if they’re adjusting this, right. We just don’t know. Cause I don’t know. Cause I’m outside of the industry.

Shane Devenish:

Yeah. But I remember, uh, this is going back probably 12, 13 years ago. I remember going to a Jayco show up in Milwaukee and, uh, playing golf with the Jack links group. They own a, I didn’t realize this, but they own a RV dealership. Is that true? Did you know that? Yeah, I didn’t know that. Wow. Yeah, they’re, I think they own one or two anyway, big, and they were really good guys. And we got talking about Jack Link’s, which is, you know, huge. I’m sure it’s big down there, big up here. you know, beef jerky and those little sausages and all the gas stations.

Brian Searl:

I don’t know what you’re talking about, but I’ll assume that you’re right.

Shane Devenish:

You don’t? Really? No. Jack Links, do an AI search for him. I’m like a I’m like one of those hippie millennial people that eats organic stuff, so that’s Anyway it was interesting how you got these guys getting in the RV industry, so But it was a really good show I remember going around driving through Started with an M. Mikasa on the way from Chicago I Don’t know

Angie Diedrich:

from Chicago, you do Kenosha.

Shane Devenish:

Anyway, it was a great, I really liked Milwaukee.

Angie Diedrich:

Yeah, it is nice. And they do put a lot of good shows on. I’m surprised, just how much turnout comes to their shows. It can be snowing, it can be you know, sleeting, slushing ice, and you’ll still get a lot of people who come out for these RV shows. I think people in Wisconsin just get super excited that spring’s going to come eventually, but they want to go see something they can use outside.

Susan Carpenter:

And look forward to something, right?

Shane Devenish:

Well, we’re kind of the same up here. In Indiana. Yeah, we get a little itchy for summer come February, March, that’s for sure. Oh, yeah.

Brian Searl:

Yeah. So I’m interested. Let’s Shane, let’s talk briefly because like, I know you’re definitely a valuable addition to the show every week, but I feel like we’ve never really dived into some of the manufacturer stuff in detail. And so I’m curious, like, I want to open that for you to talk about anything you think, you know, we should talk about, but, but my questions are. I think mostly related to what we’re seeing in the economy, like our manufacturers struggling with having to raise prices for their parts. Is that impacting who they can sell, how much they can sell, who’s buying from them? You know, how do they balance all this inflationary stuff is my opening question. And then if there’s anything else that you have that you feel is important from a manufacturer standpoint.

Shane Devenish:

Your first question, not as much today as it was in 2020 and 2021 when we’re going through those supply chain issues. Our guys up here, I can talk about our Canadian guys a little bit better. Usually they’re using local suppliers for the most part. some of the common things they might have to get elsewhere like Indiana, but as They always try to get something from their common guys, and I think the prices have come down on In the last year or so on on those parts just because it’s a little bit freer flowing now We are seeing more people looking to build up here, which is great to see, you know, back in the early, early to mid 70s, Canada had about 80 or 90 RV manufacturers. And, you know, some of them were Canadian owned or only and others were just a US based manufacturer, but with the same location, but through time with free duty and the dollar going apart, we lost a great number of them throughout the last probably 30 years. And now we’re down to about 10 or 12 up here. But we’re seeing some more interest, especially from some van conversion guys, who now want to start building class B motorhomes and smaller travel trailers. So I always try to help out as many of the Canadians who want to get going with hooking them up with certification and accredited companies that way to kind of guide them because we often get a lot of calls on what to do where some of these guys are They don’t have a clue how to get going and most of them probably won’t meet the threshold, but hopefully there’s a few of them that do. Today was a good day up here in Canada. Brian, you probably know. You know, I was looking at our stats and last year when our interest rates started to go up, we seemed to hit a wall in the wholesale shipment starting in June for the rest of the year. And we had a rate cut of a quarter percent. I think it was in April, if I’m not mistaken. And we had another rate cut announced today of another quarter percent. So we’re down to four and a half. They’re talking about some more rate cuts hopefully by the end of the year. So I’m really hopeful that this is going to be a breath of fresh air for the industry. And a lot of people, you know, given the more disposable income as well on housing and whatnot, but It was important to make that decision today, I think Especially for our industry because I think this is going to be a good impetus hopefully for the rest of the rest of the year retail wise I think people are waiting for For that so, you know, it’s I’m excited about the rest of the year up here

Brian Searl:

Do you think that, and I recognize that there’s no clear answer to this, obviously I agree with what you just said, that lower interest rates for the industry are definitely better. Do you think that’s really the holdup for the consumer though? Because the price of goods and services and groceries and gas and everything else is still heavily inflated, whether their loan has to be maybe a few hundred or a thousand dollars cheaper. There’s still like, is that disposable income instantly going to come back overnight? I’m skeptical.

Shane Devenish:

Yeah, you know, you raise a good point. I don’t know. You know, there’s still a lot of money out there. I don’t know the percentage of RV purchases in Canada that have loans versus not loans. But, you know, perhaps people are waiting, you know, if they have equity in their homes, for example, you know, maybe they’re just waiting for things to balance out and to have a better, you know, maybe the stock market to get a little bit better or what have you.

Brian Searl:

Actually, it’s interesting because I think it’s an easier path to recovery in Canada. And again, I’m no economist, right? I think it’s an easier path to recovery because of interest rates in Canada than it is in the United States, primarily because of the housing situation. Most people up here have a short-term fixed rate, which rolls over every three to five years, right, for their homes. Which means that when that interest rate comes down, that can dramatically save them quickly on their housing payments, right? Which gives them more of that discretionary income where the U S is mostly fixed for 30 years. So people aren’t seeing that up and down savings of like companies still are in the United States. Absolutely. But people aren’t.

Shane Devenish:

Yeah, you know and yeah, and you know, I think that I think I saw a stat between 50% and 75% of households in Canada were gonna Their mortgage was due in the next two years.

Brian Searl:

Mm-hmm bottom during kovat.

Shane Devenish:

Yeah, so yeah and you know, that if the interest rates didn’t come down, people were renewing at a significantly higher, probably two to three points higher, which would have been brutal. So, you know, hopefully, by the time they’re all, you know, ready to renew, we’re starting to go back down, so there’d be less of an impact for them.

Brian Searl:

Yeah. And then that just helps the whole circle of the, yeah, as long as they can keep the inflation for everything else under control. Sorry to bore you guys down there in the States.

Susan Carpenter:

No, no, it’s very, it’s very interesting to hear that because I mean, you look at the U S side of things, things are not going well, right? Interest rates are high. Um, and that’s the number one thing that affects sales of units here. You know, gas prices really doesn’t affect it. It’s the interest rate and there’s no clear, relief from it for this year anyway. So it’s an election year and what.

Brian Searl:

Again, it’s not the, and I recognize how controversial this topic is and that people, so if you guys don’t want to answer a question, I’m happy to like be the controversial guy. But like from my perspective, when interest rates get cut, it helps people at the top. It does not help the people underneath. It might make them more comfortable taking out a loan.

Susan Carpenter:

Yeah.

Brian Searl:

But it doesn’t actually put more money into their pockets is what I’m saying.

Susan Carpenter:

Correct. I think it’s more of a psychological thing, right? When you’re looking at a payment in an RV, even if you’re not a higher up, you’re kind of more of kind of the middle to lower in that price range. They’re still looking at those interest rates thinking, oh, you know, and they’re going to figure out how much they’re going to pay for the unit plus interest, right? And it’s, it’s going to be bad. And not to mention when you roll it off the lot, you know, these things don’t hold.

Brian Searl:

Only by Jeep Wranglers. Cause they don’t. Yeah.

Susan Carpenter:

Yeah, exactly. I mean, everything is like that, but in this year, you know, I’ve been in this industry for so long. I recognize this every four years. It’s tough. As soon as there’s any kind of uncertainty in the air about an election, even though they know not a lot’s going to change overnight, people just start kind of going to the mattresses and saving their money.

Brian Searl:

To be fair, something changed overnight on Sunday, Susan, so some things have changed.

Susan Carpenter:

Well, yeah, it’s unprecedented. Yeah, but quite truthfully, it’s unprecedented. But yeah, so this year’s even worse. I mean, there’s so much in the air and it just makes people squirrely. And you take the interest rates along with it and people are just like, not doing it. I’m just going to hold on to my money and see how everything happens, what happens.

Brian Searl:

Is it just the president? And you guys can tell me to shut up if you don’t want to talk about economics, right? But is it just that presidential election, though? I think it’s much more than that as a fundamental underlying

Susan Carpenter:

thing. It is. But if you look at statistical serve, you know, serve, you know, the statistics every four years, I agree with you a hundred percent.

Brian Searl:

I agree with you. Yeah. Yeah. I’m just, I just don’t know that it’s all of it.

Susan Carpenter:

I don’t know. I don’t know what the underlying thing is, but every, I mean, anybody who’s been in this industry long enough knows when it’s an election year, things get a little soft. Things get, people get a little bit.

Brian Searl:

Same thing in camper, in camping and stays at camp. Shane knows that from running the association for so long, the other association. CCRV, well, you ran CCRVC and then they just changed the name when you left Shanghai. I don’t know why. Did that change at any time?

Susan Carpenter:

Do you think like people, I mean, and I know the manufacturing side because it’s what in the aftermarket side, but do you think people are less likely to go out and use the camp front and the campers during those years too?

Brian Searl:

Yeah. I mean, we, like Scott bear has data on this. So we’ve been working on him for our reports with modern campgrounds. We put out for the industry that election years, like camping goes down, but also like, we’ve seen this in our data. Like we’ve seen, cause I, we run, I run the marketing agency. You know, we work with 450 campgrounds and RV parks and we look at this SEO data and we’ve seen like the, from reservation standpoint, like nine to 20% ish, less camper nights this year, generally across the board. Now, there are exceptions to that, right? But generally speaking, as an average, 9 to 20% less camper nights across the entire United States. Some people are better, some people are worse. But if you’re managing your revenue, then you can still make that up a little bit, right? From a revenue perspective, we’re seeing people down single digits or up single digits or flat. Um, but, and then we also seem like a declining interest in search, which is the more like, this is what we’ve been telling clients. Like we look at searches in Texas for RV parks, RV resorts, campgrounds. We look at searches in Florida and we see these keywords when people are just typing in RV park or typing in campground for like campground near me, they’re down 18 to 30%. Like people search, which means they’re not even interested in considering it at all. Year over year, May to May, June to June. So we know this is softening. It just feels way more harsh than a typical presidential election.

Susan Carpenter:

No, I agree with that. It’s way more harsh. I mean, 4th of July, I went camping in a state park in Ohio and just outside of Columbus. And I cabined it because I don’t have an RV anymore. Did that for many, many years. But Half the cabins were probably empty when we went around in the actual campsites. There were campsites open and it just kind of floored us. I mean, we were just like, wow, you know, it was totally opposite from where we came through on COVID. And we thought maybe it was just the campground, you know, maybe it’s just not a favorite campground. It was beautiful, but. I don’t know. So that makes sense then.

Brian Searl:

It’s almost everywhere, right? And when you think about it, if I’m a consumer and I took three vacations or two vacations in my RV or at a cabin rental or whatever a year, and all of a sudden I’m staying less camper nights, it’s not just that maybe I was staying four nights each of those and now I’m going to stay three each of those. It’s I’m going to take two vacations instead of one vacation or one vacation instead of three. And then where are you going to condense all those vacations to? Well, if you’re in the States outside of like the really Southern States that are warm all the time, you’re probably going to condense that into July because the kids are going back to school in August. Right. And like, it’s, that’s typically the warmest month. You want to be guaranteed the best weather for your one vacation. And so that’s like, we’ve seen people who were down consistently in May, June, kind of up in July. And then there’s a softening that’s going to con that they’re seeing continuing in August and September. And we’re not there yet to see that data, but we, it’s all signs are pointing to that happening. So, and then you’re going to be more picky too. Like you’re going to cheat. Like if you’re, if you were a family, right, Susan or Shane or Angie, if you’re a family and you’re going to go camping, but now you’re only take one vacation instead of three, you better believe you’re going to look more closely at those campgrounds and figure out which one is the difference maker that has the, the really, really special experience for your one vacation a year. Right. And so now these campgrounds are not prepared for this. They’ve been operating at a pace, really, since 2012, where they can just build a campground and people show up. But now it’s not enough to just have an RV site and a swimming pool. What is your experience? Everybody’s got a pool.

Angie Diedrich:

Everybody’s got a pad.

Brian Searl:

So I think this is going to be the same with the dealers, too, in some extent, with the manufacturers. What actually sets your RV apart? cool, you have a different floor plan, and the hallway’s a little bit off, and maybe the bedroom’s a foot or two different square footage, and you have an extra cabinet. But what really is going to set you apart? I think that’s what’s coming. And there’s, I don’t know how that shakes out. I’m definitely no expert, but.

Susan Carpenter:

Yeah, I think you’re absolutely right. And I think they’re going to look at quality. you know, a bit of a black eye during the COVID months when they’re pumping them out and, you know, people are not going to be willing to pay that price without that quality to follow.

Angie Diedrich:

Right, right.

Brian Searl:

Go ahead, Angie, finish and then Shane looks like he really wants to talk.

Angie Diedrich:

He’s like, oh, I was going to say that being able to get your RV repaired is a big thing, too, that we hear from consumers in Wisconsin A lot is, they’ll buy an RV, but then if they need something repaired, especially something specialty, like they put solar on the top, solar panels or something, there’s not that many dealers who can service that warranty work. So that, I know that’s a bigger thing that’s been trying to be worked on on a national level is being able to provide those services and that training.

Brian Searl:

Like I’m sorry that you were delayed. I didn’t mean to talk over you. Um, this is also consumer mindset too. This is like, why, why should any consumer have to go to think about purchasing an RV and before they purchase it, be like, geez, I don’t know where I’m going to get service for this thing. Shouldn’t you just assume that it’s going to work for a few years without like, I don’t think about that when I go buy a car, like, Hmm, where are the Jeep dealers where I’m going to be traveling?

Susan Carpenter:

Normally you’re buying a car because you’re servicing your other one too often and you want a new one.

Brian Searl:

So that, that whole perception is, and I know that perception is wrong in many cases that they don’t often need service that much. So like, I’m not throwing the dealers under the bus or any, or the manufacturers under the bus. Right. But like, there is that perception out there and you need to fix that. And the way to fix that is to build quality things that for sure don’t need repaired for ideally like five, at least five years. Right. Oil changes and stuff like that. Go ahead, Shane, do it like you’re like,

Shane Devenish:

Either you like me or you want to talk or… No, no, I was just wondering when you say about the people going to campgrounds is less, but when you see the airports and all that stuff, so they’re taking vacations, people are going somewhere, right? Yeah. So, um, uh, yeah, I guess you got to ask yourselves where, why aren’t they going camping again? Did we lose some people through COVID?

Brian Searl:

I know some people were lost people through COVID. Like, I don’t think we’re lost people net from 2019, but I think we lost people through COVID. Yeah.

Susan Carpenter:

I think some people didn’t like it, which is fair, you know, and said, no, can’t do that. They tried it, whatever. That’s great. I think some people, because they were cooped up and they love to travel overseas or whatever, or like, Ooh, yay, way back, you know, we can go do that trip again, but they’re not giving up on camping maybe. And just not camping like they were when they couldn’t travel. But you had a guest a couple of months ago, Brian from Australia that said they, their international, um, Traveler coming to Australia was way down still so where are they going?

Brian Searl:

Yeah, I don’t I mean I don’t really have data in front of me to to present that right I think I think your overall is starting to see travel softening like I think there’s more people who are in airports for sure than there probably are like to Shane’s point right and again some of this is speculation on my part based on what we see and what I Weird and I obsessively watch a bunch of videos on economics and everything else. And this is for sure going to be controversial, what I’m going to say. But if you look at what I just said about RVs and campgrounds and how people are going to have raised expectations of the experience at RV campgrounds, we can all kind of agree on that, right? Less campers means you’re going to have more choice, means you’re going to be able to choose the best fit for whatever experience you want, right? Impress me. Make it worth my one vacation a year. Is that fair? We’re all agreed on that? OK, so then take that to the rest of the United States. And let’s be blatantly clear. Outside of really nice, amazing Grand Canyon, and there’s certainly beautiful places all over the United States. I’m not saying that. But when you’re in an RV driving town to town, and I did this, I traveled for four straight years to every state in a Jeep. and went to every city in the little back road town, like not every city, right? But you understand what I’m saying? Like every I drove a lot for four years. And almost every town looks the same. They all have the same strip malls, they all have the same Walmarts, they all have the same gas stations, they’re all the best undiscovered, most historic place that nobody’s ever heard of, and the best kept secret. And, and again, nature for sure. There’s plenty of beautiful reasons to go to all the national parks and lots of the state parks and see waterfalls. And there’s so many beautiful things in the States. But outside of that, like a lot of it is the same. Whereas, and hear me out, like I can go to the, I can go to Europe and I can drive two hours between cities and it’s radically different. So maybe I want to experience something different more so than it’s a choice between RVs and not RVs.

Shane Devenish:

I’m gonna give you a different take what I what I see. I want it because I’m not saying I’m right Yeah, right during during kovat how often we hear I can’t all these people are buying RVs, but they couldn’t find campsites Now the perception is still the same You know, I’m not buying an RV because I don’t have anywhere to go. That’s what I’ve heard Right. So it’s up to the industry now to say You know, we’ve got availability and I don’t think we do that as well or as much as we should message you know, campers to say, hey, try us, you know, we got availability, you know, there’s, there’s the odd post. But we need to change the perception of RV owners that they can find spots now, because maybe they only think, well, I better book nine months in advance. And then, if I don’t, then I’m never going to be able to go anywhere, as opposed to, geez, I want to go camping in two weeks, you know, Where do I go if they know that or think that hey, I’m gonna find a spot.

Brian Searl:

Maybe they’ll grow up more They’ll use some more, you know, well, I think I think that people who already own an RV are not the biggest issue here It’s the people who are going to try to purchase an RV because then you’ve got an even bigger selling point, right? then you’ve got to come to that person and say like you need to buy a $500,000 rig or drop 80,000 on a towable and And you jump on a plane. You don’t have to buy the plane to go to Europe So that’s a much heavier lift in a down economy with high interest rates. Right? That has to play into it too.

Angie Diedrich:

Yeah. In Wisconsin, I will say the Wisconsin Campground Owners Association does a fabulous job of going into all the dealerships and they actually provide a booklet and stuff to… Waco is great.

Brian Searl:

Lori’s amazing.

Angie Diedrich:

Yeah. All the amenities and stuff that each park has and you know, if it has RV sites or not. And we actually just got some legislation passed too in our last budget, annual budget, because we had a really weird arbitrary cap on the number of electrified sites you can have at a state park. And it was at 35%, which was weird. It was like all the state parks in Wisconsin, you could only have 35%. And there’s some extremely popular ones in Wisconsin that, I mean, if you don’t get there on the first day that booking opens, you’re not getting a spot. So our department of natural resources, we’re super happy about that to be able to open up more opportunities for RV users.

Brian Searl:

And I think the important thing to you to share from my perspective is that I’m not negative on our industry at all on the RV side or the campground side. Like I think we’re going to be fine. I just see a lot of campgrounds specifically calling me, but also hear anecdotally about meetings and things for the RV industry, mostly in the States, but where there’s a, I’ll just wait it out and things will be magically better next year. And I don’t think that’s going to happen this time. I think we’re in a two to four year window and that’s not even counting the like, what if AI really does start to impact jobs? which it is going to, because right now people still have their jobs and they still have their paychecks and they still have their discretionary income, even though it might go a little bit less purchasing power wise. So again, I think if you do your marketing right, if you’re building quality rigs, if you’re like, I think you’re going to be fine. But the difference maker is what is the difference maker for you? Because it’s going to be a smaller market. But if you’re building quality, if you’re delivering quality, if you have good experiences, if you have good marketing, if you have, then you’re fine, right? Like, I’m not negative here. I know that sounds, all that sounds negative coming out of my mouth, right? But go ahead, Jane, if you have any thoughts, like you look really grumpy at me.

Shane Devenish:

No, I’m not that, I’m not as pessimistic as you. I think for you guys, and I’m not close, but I think once you get by the election, I think things are going to get better. sooner rather than the three or four years. Ben, you know, I just, you know, very, I think, I feel that the industry is going to be really bright. It’s just, we had so many, such a, I should say, a wide range of extremes in the last three or four years. We had the highest of the highs and the lowest of the lows for us. And I think we just need to get back to a balanced atmosphere here. And I think that’ll help.

Susan Carpenter:

I think you’re right. I mean, we were due for a correction before COVID hit. Then COVID totally took that off the table. And I think we’re just going through that unknown, a little bit of a correction. And I think Shane’s right. I think we’ll level off at some point. But there’s definitely always room for improvement in everything we do to make it better.

Brian Searl:

Yeah, I mean, for sure. Like, I hope, I hope I’m wrong.

Shane Devenish:

Well, don’t they say the worst habits are developed in the best of times. So, you know, I think people are going to have to, you know, get back to the basics. Now that, you know, it’s more of a fight for the it’s not fishing in a barrel anymore, like it was. Right.

Brian Searl:

That’s what I’m saying. So like, again, the people who can who are the expert fishermen in the barrel, who know where, you know, what bait to use and what lure to use and all that, like they’re going to be fine. And I think that’s going to be like 75% of the industry. If they figure out how to do their marketing, right. Tell their story and do a unique experience. So that doesn’t mean you have to build a million dollar water park. It means warm cookies and friendly staff and something. Yeah. It’s very easy right now to differentiate yourself in the campground industry because almost nobody is doing it. And I don’t know what the RV side of it looks like, right? But based on the shows that we have here and the talks about all the service wait times and repairs and the mindset of the consumer, that seems like a relatively easy thing to fix to build better things. And we’re not even talking about the real controversy thing, which is maybe China’s going to ship RVs over here. So. Anyway, like I’m not saying I’m in favor of any of this stuff. I’m just saying this is how I look at it, right? This is not the world I want This is the world I’m reading right now So, all right any final thoughts we have everybody let’s end on a positive note Shane your job pick a positive thing

Shane Devenish:

No, positive thing. I’m coming down to Indiana next month to watch one of our fellow Canadians get inducted in the Hall of Fame. Terry Elias from Triple E Motorhomes and a bunch of us guys from CRVA will be down there, and ladies. And looking forward to that. It’s always nice. I think Terry will be, if I’m not mistaken, either the fifth or the sixth Canadian in the RVMH Hall of Fame. We’re all pretty pumped up about that.

Susan Carpenter:

Yeah, go Canada. You need more than five or six. You guys are up there. I think that’s probably how many women.

Brian Searl:

You gave us something positive.

Angie Diedrich:

I didn’t mean to cut you off.

Brian Searl:

Did I cut you off, Shane? I’m sorry.

Angie Diedrich:

Oh, no. I’m going to be at the same event as Shane, but going there to see Phil and Grassy get nominated into the Hall of Fame.

Shane Devenish:

There you go.

Brian Searl:

Boy, Phil’s still young.

Susan Carpenter:

He’s only 35, you know. How many times?

Brian Searl:

It’s going to be a surprise for him. I’m not waiting into that, so. Susan, end us with a positive thing that you’re excited about.

Susan Carpenter:

Like I mentioned earlier, next month we’re going to have Women’s Equality Day celebration at the RV Technical Institute. It’s free. We’re going to have food trucks. We’re going to have a lot of networking. People are going to be able to go inside the building and see how they test. It’s a bunch of organizations, RVIA, RVDA, RVTI and RVWA, a lot of acronyms, coming together, which is amazing to be able to come together as a group like that and celebrate something like that. Can’t get much better.

Brian Searl:

Awesome. Well, Susan, where can they find out more about the RV Women’s Alliance?

Susan Carpenter:

RVWA.org.

Brian Searl:

Angie, our Wisconsin RV Dealers Alliance, where can they find out more about your organization?

Angie Diedrich:

RVWisconsin.org.

Shane Devenish:

And Shane, www.crva.ca.

Brian Searl:

All right. Well, thank you guys for putting up with some of my bullshit today and my economic theories that have no basis in fact or truth. But I appreciate you sitting here and listening to me anyway.

Shane Devenish:

Great conversation. Yeah.

Brian Searl:

Hope you guys really appreciate it. Thank you guys for joining us for another episode of MC Fireside Chats. We’ll see you next week for our open, well, maybe not. We might have a special show, I think, next week. But anyway, we’ll see you next week for another show. This is a special show. Yeah, well like we have our fifth week like sometimes there’s five Wednesdays in a month, right is what I mean So gotcha. All right, but thank you guys. I appreciate it and we’ll see you next time.

SPEAKER_00:

All right Thank you This episode of MC fireside chats with your host, Brian Searle. Have a suggestion for a show idea? Want your campground or company in a future episode? Email us at hello at moderncampground.com. Get your daily dose of news from moderncampground.com. And be sure to join us next week for more insights into the fascinating world of outdoor hospitality.