MC Fireside Chats – July 12th, 2023

[00:00:00] 

Brian: Welcome everybody to another episode of MC Fireside Chats. David Smith joining us right when I’m trying to do my intro here. You threw off the whole rhythm, David. Brian Searl, with [00:01:00] Insider Perks. Excited to be here with you for another glamping focused episode week two. Super excited to have our recurring panelists here.

Zach is here. David’s here. Hopefully Ruben will be joining us. Connor Schwab couldn’t make it this week and maybe Irene Wood will come to you. It just like to pop in and surprise me at random intervals. That was the best one though, David. Like you hit the timing literally right as soon as the intro ended.

So good to have David here. And then we’ve got a couple special guests with us too. So Sharen and Tony Turner. I gotta look at my notes and cheat here. Sharen and Tony Turner are from Glamping Retro, and they’re gonna talk to us about their one of a kind amenities. They’re glamping business.

And then we have Adrian, is it Passos? Am I pronounced that right? Passos? 

Adrian: It’s Passos. 

Brian: From just outside of London. 

Adrian: Royal Rails in London. And this is my wife Claire. 

Brian: Nice to meet you Claire. Thanks for joining us as well from Caracol Glamping. So they’re gonna talk to us a little bit about their operation over there.

I missed London already, like I’ll tell you, I was there for the Christmas markets in December. I flew into London and then I went to the Hyde Park thing and then I went [00:02:00] all over to see the other Christmas Markets in Germany and France and stuff, and came back to London. Yeah. I liked it, but I wanna explore more of the countryside in England.

That’s my goal. 

I’m getting there as soon as I have time, all right. What’s on before we get to our special guest, let them introduce themselves, what is on our anything come across your desk. Zach, since you haven’t been here for two months, anything that you feel is important, or David, that you feel is important we should talk about?

Zach: I think the only thing I would say is on the development side we’ve been so heavily focused on kind of the Southern United States, especially Southeastern United States. And it seems like recently I just keep getting more and more inquiries from northern states and northern areas.

Things I think most people wouldn’t have on their radar for glamping. Yep. And it’s brilliant. We just wrapped up development on a property in New Hampshire. We got full unanimous zoning [00:03:00] approval and we’ve been having some investment discussions and that was why here, why this area?

Cuz there’s nothing for a hundred miles anywhere around. Yeah. A lot of those northern states are catching up, I think, and becoming hot areas for glamping. That’s been surprising. But I’m excited about it. 

Brian: Do you think that, and I don’t mean to interrupt you, but do you think that’s specifically related to the perception that maybe the Northeast is harder to get permitting for because they’re heavily regulated or more heavily regulated?

Zach: I think in the beginning somewhat, yeah. If you’re a developer investor, you got a choice between low hanging fruit and an area that, that wants it and encourages development in an area where maybe it’s gonna be a little more difficult. Obviously you’re gonna focus your resources on the ones that can be done quickly.

But I wouldn’t say an that, some of those areas are really that difficult, our experience so far and maybe it’s our approach that we take it a little bit differently, but I think in the most part, most of these sites, the counties have been very excited about it and [00:04:00] anything that brings tourism in the draw or gives people a unique opportunity to experience something different or will bring people to their area. O overall, I would say our reception’s been really positive. Everywhere that we’ve looked at, I, I think the bigger factor From an investment perspective is how seasonal is it?

I think the perception has been, oh, it’s northern states. It’s cold in the winter. You’re only gonna be able to operate five months out of the year. And part of that has been a challenge for us. We do look at different types of units and different take a different design approach to it.

Yeah. Cuz it’s still possible to do year round glamping even when there’s two feet of snow on the ground. But we do have to be a little more creative and look at those unit types and I guess experience different. But honestly it opens up a whole new world. I think a lot of glamping resorts, especially when it comes to amenities, they look at the same things, right?

You’re gonna have hiking and mountain biking trails. You might have, water that you can do on, that’s great. But every, appointed glamping resort that’s out there has those things.[00:05:00] Where else can you go and rent a snowmobile for the day and go out and ride, 40 miles of frozen lake and shoreline and come back to a nice warm glamping hut, where else can you take a moon bike out for an hour and feel what it’s like to, jet ski on snow?

So I’m really excited about some of these process. 

I’m preaching to the choir. Tell the Canadians that we can in winter and they’re going, duh. 

Brian: No, you’re not wrong though. I and to be clear, I don’t think that the permitting, just briefly going back to that is the actual issue.

I think there’s just maybe from what I heard and it was more campgrounds, RV Parks years ago at some of the Northeast conferences, there was just that perception that maybe it was a little less business friendly. But I don’t think that’s really the case, as you very clearly indicated . Or maybe it’s just your approach and clockwork is amazing and everyone should hire you.

Zach: I like to think that we’re good at what we do. 

Brian: Of course you are.[00:06:00] Okay. So let’s David, anything on your list that we should talk about? 

David: No, I think for me I’m always, as, I always really try and zoom out and think about, where glamping is, outdoor hospitality is within the context of broader travel, tourism market and cycle.

And yeah, I think and the last month it’s, we’ve seen more evidence of what I was talking about on our last call, which is that the, the market is turning a corner and in the US we’ve had we’ve just, there’s really just been this incredible run in drive to leisure.

In general, whether you’re in the Northeast or where I am in California, a lot of these drive to markets have just had really unbelievable rate growth, occupancy growth since the early days of Covid. And this, there’s always been this question about, what is like the new normal? [00:07:00] And I think we’ve seen more evidence in the last month that things are normalizing and it’s that data is showing up everywhere.

I think RV sales are down something like 50% year on year versus last year. Yes. And then more on the glamping side of the industry, or, sorry, not on glamping, but just in drive to leisure in general. We’re definitely starting to see occupancy and rate and rev car as they call it in the hotel industry.

Leveling off in places like Napa, Sonoma And some of the, even some of the vaca really hot vacation rental markets, like in the Blueridge Mountains. So demand is leveling off. And I think the question now is, where does it restabilize at? And that’s, I think that’ll be a really important question for for this space that we’re all involved in as well.

But I think all of us on this call, we’ve talked about previously, it’s, I think it’s important to be aware of that stuff. But at the end of the day the only thing that [00:08:00] really matters is you’re, for your own business is what the local dynamics of your market are. And whether you’re delivering an experience that’s differentiated and will stay relevant in, whether it’s a good market or a bad market, or a great market.

Brian: Setting yourself apart.

So let me ask you this and I just wanna touch on it briefly and then we’ll get to our special guest because I read an article I know some of us, I think Zach, you used Air DNA before. We’ve heard that. Like I, I’ve used it. Yeah. So I read a report, I think it wasn’t about our industry glamping, but it was about vacation rentals.

As you just touched on, David specifically, I think it was citing an owner on the Jersey shore there, right? Where it’s normally big vacation rental area and they’ve had an Airbnb for a while, but they talked about how this summer it’s just not filling up and they’re not getting the guests and it’s not, do you see that as a broader indicative trend for glamping as a whole?

Or is that vacation rental specifically cooling off? Or do you know? 

David: I do, yes and no. I think it is relevant to glamping in the sense [00:09:00] that if you think about vacation rental demand as at least being somewhat related to leisure travel demand, in general I think it is.

Partly, I think it is due to the same thing, the same reason why hoteliers in some of these drive to markets are also seeing a drop off in room rate. This time year versus last time, same time last year. But I do think there’s also I’m not an expert on the vacation rental market, but I think there, there’s been a lot written about that sector becoming oversupplied.

Parts of, certainly in the us there’s just been an absolute frenzy in vacation rental development or investors buying homes, converting them to, basically like permanent Airbnbs. So I think that there’s that in that sense, the barriers to entry in some parts of the country for vacation rentals [00:10:00] are a lot lower than the sort of stuff we all deal with.

And that oversupply issue may just be specific to vacation rentals. I think it probably is.

Brian: Because it’s easier to start an Airbnb than it is to start a claiming resort. Of course. 

David: Yeah. Especially if you’re in, some of the more accommodative parts of the US where no one really the county’s not gonna get in your way if you wanna do that.

So yeah, as always it’s impossible to tell, but I think it’s both a reflection of the market, but also probably something specific to vacation rental world too. 

Zach: Two things that I would add to that. And reasons that it’s important within the glamping industry that we pay attention to that.

One, we’re starting to see areas where there’s Collateral damage to the glamping industry as a result of short-term rentals. As an example we were looking at a property in Colorado with a development client. Would’ve been an incredible property, great location, close [00:11:00] proximity to several ski resorts, year-round opportunities there.

And the county that’s there recently instituted kind of some reactionary policies due to the problems that have been created from the short-term rental market. There, there are no longer any key rental houses. All the seasonal employees, everybody that works at these ski resorts, they come up, they rent a house, they put 15 people in it, so they’re each paying $300 a month.

All those cheap affordable properties have been snatched up by, by speculators turning them into short term rentals. So now they have a workforce housing problem. So they’ve instituted registry for short term rentals and they grant licenses to, to use your property as a short term rental. Some of these states and counties have even gone so far as to subpoena sites like Airbnb and say, we want all the listings that you have on your platform in our county, and then issued fines to those property owners for having, an illegal [00:12:00] short-term rental due to their new regulations that they’ve passed.

Other counties have issued a moratorium and flat out said, we don’t care what it is. We’re not approving anything that would be a short-term rental, a short-term stay for the next two years until we get a handle on all of this. And like it or not, those policies and those moratoriums and some of those reactions from areas that have been inundated by the short-term rental markets are having an effect on the glancing industry.

And having some of those counties come back and say, yeah, we realize you’re a glamping resort. You’re Camping all this, but you’re still charging a nightly rate. People aren’t staying here long term. You’re not renting it for the month. This classifies under our new designations as a short term rental.

So I think it’s important to keep our finger on the pulse of that. The second thing I was gonna add to it, and that I, sometimes I feel like I’m beating a dead horse. But I think it, it makes it all the more important that within the glamping industry [00:13:00] we understand that we are not in the business of accommodations.

Everybody say it with me. Glamping is not about accommodations. Glamping is about a hosted experience. And so it, when we compare, looking at that saturated market, we look at, rentals that are dropping off. Why are we not seeing that in the glamping industry? Or should we be worried in the glamping industry?

Brian: Because you offer experience.

Zach: Right. And I think, eventually, yes, we’re gonna hit a saturation point in this industry as well, but the thing that’s a differentiator for a glamping operator or resort is that you are offering more than an accommodation. And so the thing I think that’s gonna make this a more resilient industry as opposed to just, Airbnbs or short term rentals, is that piece of it.

So if you’re a glamping operator and you’re not offering anything more than accommodations, then yes, you should be worried. But I think a majority of the properties, especially very unique properties that are out there, [00:14:00] they’re focused on a specific landscape feature an activity that can be done what, beyond just the usual stuff that we see.

But that’s the business we’re in is experiential hospitality and I think that’s what differentiates someone who’s seeking a glamping adventure versus, someone that’s maybe just looking for a place to stay for the night. 

Brian: Do you think that, and I apologize Adrian and Carol, Sharen and Antonio, I promise I’m getting to you.

I didn’t intend to go down this kind of direction here. But I just wanna finish the conversation. Do you think that in some ways this problem you’re describing with people with an oversaturation of vacation rentals and how it might or might not impact Lamping, obviously it is in Colorado and certainly it’s not hard to imagine that it’s impacting in other districts, cities, states around the country that are dealing with the same kind of influx as that area was.

Do you think that in some ways, an economic recession or reset or whatever’s gonna happen to us here however small or big might end up helping that in some ways because it will reset some of the [00:15:00] over. Embellishment or zeal? Zealousness or zeal? I guess I’m trying to look for the word that people are just coming in and buying these houses at inflated prices and renting them out at inflated prices.

Do you think that helps, perhaps long-term, our industry? 

Zach: I’m trying to find the best way to give the politically correct answer on this. I view it more like a Pandora’s box, in the US at least where government doesn’t typically get smaller things get bigger. And so I think once that regulation is out there I don’t see it being rolled back or repealed.

We may, it may adjust. It may eventually. 

Brian: That’s what I think, is the adjustment, right? Do we, cuz right now, as they said, like there’s a hard stop for a year or two years, but if we go through a period where there’s a lot of rentals that exit without even legislation.

And there’s not as much I think maybe that helps us in two years get a differentiating, like maybe an addendum to the bill or an addition that says, glamping is a little bit different or experiential hospital. 

I don’t know. It’s [00:16:00] speculation. 

Zach: Yeah. I think it, and honestly I’d be interested in hearing Adrian’s perspective on this because again, in a lot of ways I look at the US glamping in industry as somewhat still in its infancy, right?

We’re in the first 10 or 15 years of this kind of trend. I know the UK especially is a lot more established when it comes to that. And I’m sure they’re on the backside of that very question. But I do think as the industry becomes more established, as people become more aware of it, more familiar with what it is and what it isn’t I, I do think that, not necessarily a repeal, but I think there will be more public support for.

People stepping forward and saying, look, that’s not what this was about. This was about Airbnb. This was not about squeezing out this, couple that wants to build this wonderful place. That would be an incredible experience and bring people to our area. So yes, I think, like all government we have ebbs and flows.

We swing one way and we swing back the [00:17:00] other. So I think we’ll get there, but I’d be interested in hearing a deeper industry perspective from Adrian on that. 

Adrian: Look the UK planning processes is incredibly difficult as it sounds, as if it is in the US.

We went through a year long process and literally our business is small. We’ve got eight bell tents in in a three acre field. And that is it is a small business. The process that took to get through was a 140 page document to the local council and a year long process. And we have to jump through all sorts of hoop.

So it’s incredibly difficult and I think that’s just, governments across the world probably got the same things in place. It’s just incredibly difficult trying to get a glamping business off the ground. 

Brian: Do you think that’s because our industry is newer still and they just don’t understand it?

Claire: It’s not that new in the UK though.

Zach: That’s what I’m, no, that’s why we’re asking. 

Claire: So in the UK it [00:18:00] is quite a saturated market and there’s loads and loads of different unique offerings like tree houses and glamping sites and cabins. There’s so much out there and during the pandemic, a lot of people were jumping on the bandwagon and just setting up grumping businesses.

But they didn’t necessarily have anything unique to offer, so I think they’re falling by the wayside as demand drops. So yeah, it’s quite a volatile market in the UK I think as well. 

Brian: So tell us a little bit about Retro Glamping.

Adrian: So we we set up three years ago, been a long process. We were both working full time last year. So this is our first full year. So we started, we eventually got open in April. Again, it’s a seasonal business. Our license only allows us to open for six months of the year. That’s part of our planning conditions.

And obviously climate as well in this country is, you’d only [00:19:00] really want to be Camping where we are located. We are in a, we’re in a historic town just outside the historic town of Ambridge Rails. We are in we’re linked to a local farm shop, so we’ve got a local connection there. So any people who are visiting our site, we encourage to visit the farm shop to encourage custom buying local, and yeah, it’s a, we’re in a, an area of outstanding natural beauty.

Yeah, so really nice spot in a, we’ve got lots of castles, historic information, local, locally to us. Yeah we’ve got a really good location, but business is tough as it is as everywhere. 

Brian: So tell me, how did you get in? I’m just curious, how did you get into glamping? Was it like a thing that you always wanted to do?

Were you just on the tube or a double-decker bus paging through a magazine? You’re like, yes, that’s what I wanna do. 

Adrian: No, we just like the outdoor lifestyle. We’ve said it, we’ve said it for many years that we love to set up a Camping business. And we never had the opportunity before. We didn’t [00:20:00] have the finances in place.

And we were looking to see how we could do it. And ultimately we put an advert in the local farmers’ union website saying we are interested in setting up a campsite if any farmer is interested get in touch. And luckily enough, one guy did, said, I’ve got this area of land.

Come and have a look and see what you think. So it is the only, we couldn’t afford to do it of any other way than that. So he gave us the opportunity to be able to set it up and establish ourselves. 

Zach: What would you, so I’ve got a quick question on that. So did you acquire the land? Are you leasing the land?

Are you doing a revenue share back to the land owner? 

Adrian: It’s a revenue share more or less. So we’ve set up the whole business. He’s put the infrastructure in place toilets, showers, facility he’s paid for and invested in. And we’ve invested in all the tents and associated equipment.

We’ve got a big stretch tent up. We’ve built a sort of an indoor outdoor kitchen [00:21:00] area and a little sort of snug that we’ve invested in. So yeah, it’s a, it’s, that’s the way that, that the partnership’s working. 

Brian: Do you feel like, and I’m just curious, hypothetically, do you, cuz that seems like a good model that works well for not in every situation, but in your case it works well for the landowner who probably wasn’t utilizing the land as much as you could have. Correct. Do you feel if you did it all over again and you had enough money to buy your own land, you would do it the same way? Would you still lease the land or would you. 

Claire: In an ideal world, you’d have your own land and then you wouldn’t have to pay the farmer rental.

Brian: That’s what I’m asking. I didn’t know if the partnership had other tangible benefits that just working together. 

Adrian: Have you said that the infrastructure, we’ve got a sewage treatment system in place. All of those associated is a huge cost and that would’ve been, our setup costs would’ve been vastly increased from what we we have had.

Brian: Do you feel like I’m trying to think of a good question from your advice perspective, and you said you’ve been doing this three years, right? [00:22:00] What would you.. 

Adrian: So last four years, so we were, we’d done a popup in year one and second year, the year two, we didn’t get open cuz we were still building the infrastructure.

So we only had a 10 week period. Okay. 

Brian: Would you say that. Just advice to other, and I’m curious, from a UK perspective, right? So you’ve been through this you’re still obviously building it, you’re on your way up. From an advice perspective, if you were talking to someone in the UK specifically, given the saturation of the market and maybe where the economy is headed, what would you recommend?

If they were heads, you’re not trying to talk ’em out of starting a Glamping business, if they’re dead set on starting one, what would you recommend that they do to make sure that they have the best chance to succeed?

Adrian: We haven’t succeeded yet, so yet the jury’s still out. 

Brian: I haven’t succeeded either, so nobody hears, succeeded. Maybe David and Zach.

Zach: I would argue you’re open. That is success. A lot of folks that we work with are in that process, [00:23:00] right?

So that, that is the eventual goal is can we just get open? After that you worry about all the, the next problems. 

Then you become more successful and more, right? Yeah. So you already are. 

Adrian: We’re enjoying the experience, but it is tough. It’s really tough. And, as new business owners, I’ve been employed all my working life, so we’ve really jumped into it with both feet and see how we gone.

At least we’ve, we can go back and we’ve said we said we were gonna do it, we’ve done it, we’re having a great time. But yeah, we’re wait and see what happens in another year. 

Brian: Sorry. I was just gonna make me answer the question, but if you have a better one, then we’ll just forget mine.

Zach: I was gonna ask to our earlier just of focusing on the experiential based piece of hospitality. What are things that, that you guys have done at Caracol? And things that are a unique opportunity for guests at your [00:24:00] resort. We’re starting to get more and more inquiries about ag experiences, farm to table incorporating animals, whether that’s sheep or goats or cattle.

So I’m curious, being as your site is on a farm what are those experiences that you guys are offering and what are you finding is resonating with your guests? What’s differentiating factors for you in your business? 

Adrian: Our location is key, like I did. We are, we’re in a historic outskirts of a historic town with lots of history.

Henry castle is literally a couple of miles away. So there, there were lots of historic attractions nearby to us are the site itself. We’ve built this kitchen this year. It’s really nice, everyone who comes to visit say it’s better than the kitchen I’ve got at home.

Or the shower’s better than the shower. So we’ve is up market, is it Glamping? Is it posh Camping? We’re we think we’ve established something that is different. Other campsites and other glamp sites haven, we’ve yet bought this indoor [00:25:00] kitchen. They haven’t got this indoor lounge area that we’ve set up.

Claire: But I think more importantly, because we are on a farm, we are all about biodiversity sustainability. We’re also located in an area of outstanding natural beauty. So for us to get through our planning application, it was key that we ticked a lot of boxes. So all the bell tents and nest ordered a wild flower meadow.

We’ve up cycling, we are reusing materials, we’ve got a little nature area. We’ve park hotels and bee hotels, and we’ve got Woodland as well behind us. So it’s really key to us that we tick all of those sort of biodiversity boxes and we have to do that to get through planning.

Brian: Which I think ultimately goes to back to Zach’s point of experience.

Yeah. It’s not and just as you talked about, is it glamping, is it something else? We’ve had those discussions too. Who knows what the word is? All we know is that people tend to search for that on Google right now. So now David, I’m curious from your perspective just [00:26:00] and maybe just have an opinion on this versus expertise.

Is there value from a capital investment standpoint in a partnership like they established, or is it something. 

David: You mean like a revenue share? 

Brian: Just from, if you’re looking at it from an investment standpoint or I’m gonna lend money to them. Is there a value in having two people with different strengths that compliment each other?

Or would you rather have one person who maybe knows the business and is learning the land? 

David: No I actually think that when you look at glamping as an industry that the hardest thing for pe, one of the hardest thing for investors to find are teams that have experience and all the necessary skillset to make a project work.

And that’s not very surprising because it’s, it’s a new industry. It’s almost impossible to have had decades of experience in glamping because it hasn’t really been [00:27:00] a thing at this scale for very long. Yeah, I think actually. Being able to show, show a partner that you’ve got, even if you don’t have that decades of experience that everyone wants you’ve got a team that have got different skill sets to bring to the table.

Yeah, of course, that’s absolutely valuable. And then I think where I thought your question was going about, how do you actually structure the deal and does that make a difference from the investor’s point? 

Brian: That’s, if that was a smart way to take the question.

That’s absolutely where I was going. 

David: It’s a different, it’s a different question, but I think it’s a good one too. Yeah, I mean that absolutely makes a difference as well, that obviously, the advantage of a revenue share or a lease is that you don’t, A lease is really, a lease is really effectively just a form of financing.

It’s, if you look at a like a land lease through, through a certain lens, it actually looks like a l. You’re, someone’s giving you [00:28:00] the land. You don’t need to put the capital up, but you do need to pay them rent for it. A rent, which is like a loan and a revenue share is not all that dissimilar again.

I think that can be valuable to an investor because it means the, like the return opportunity return on capital opportunity is higher because you just don’t have to put up as much capital. But it also means that, if things go wrong, you don’t really have you, you may not have valuable collateral in a way that you would have in a more traditional real estate project.

Zach: To add to that, what we hear on a lot of those types of projects, they can be very attractive to potential investors because the upfront capital raise is not as significant. But the and this would be a question maybe Adrian you guys haven’t gotten to yet since you’re just launching.

But when you start asking about an exit strategy, what is the long-term goal with this? Was it to grow the business, to grow multiple [00:29:00] sites? Was it to sell the business eventually? Was it, and so it, it’s always a question that comes up with investors is, I’m willing to put my money out into this, but how do I get it back?

When do I get my cash in my payday? And a lot of times on a land lease steel there’s just less there at the end. And so there, there is an investor profile that is, is not interested in land lease steels. I’ve even had traditional real estate investors say we’re, we want to do this clamping resort here and now, but we know that.

10 to 15 years from now, this is gonna be a much more attractive site for a lodge or for a hotel or, and so they’re looking for really a short term, something that’s going to generate revenue, cash flow, but it’s a means to an end. It’s to get them to that, that bigger end goal piece of a more established type of development on that property.

And [00:30:00] so if you’re trying to make that pitch to real estate investors that they see the greatest value is in the land, it’s in the property itself. I mean it’s, if the question back to, to you all what is your long-term goal for ow and what is that thought? Is it to eventually be able to buy the land and continue doing that or perfect this model and then find future partnerships other lease potentials that That you can, do the same model over and over.

Repeat it. Yeah. 

Adrian: Long, longer term we’ve got different, there are options available to us. So initially we, we set up with eight bell tents there, is there potential to put lodges something that we could run for a whole 12 months and increase our our income that way? We don’t know.

So we are in the early stages, but there are options available and there’s also options that looking alternative sites in the local area where we could set up the same business model as we are currently doing. 

Claire: I think it’s all about setting [00:31:00] up a really good brand, which I feel that we have, it’s only sort of 18 months old, but I think we’re getting a really good name for ourself locally.

And I think one of our unique selling points is that we are predominantly a group space. So it, which not that many glamping sites and campsites offer an opportunity for groups to come together and just have, exclusivity of that space. So I think as we grow our brand and, awareness of what we’re doing there is the opportunity to expand to other areas.

Brian: Awesome. Thank you so much. I wanna give Sharen and Tony a, a chance to talk to you since they’ve been super patient with us. But before I do, horizon Outdoor Hospitality is the sponsor of the show. I always forget to do this at the beginning, sometimes in the middle, and then they get pushed to the end.

It’s not just Horizon, it’s everybody. My brain is just 25 different places. So super excited for Horizon Outdoor Hospitality to be a sponsor of our second week glamping show. They are focused on, as you can see, elevating assets in the outdoor hospitality industry. But they’re a RV park management, glamping resort company.

Scott Foods and his [00:32:00] team do a great job there, so definitely I would encourage you if you’re looking for something like that, for your business to reach out and give them. Shocked. Okay. Sharon and Tony glamping. Retro, not retro glamping. No. I keep wanting to call it that. Glamping, retro. How did we get started?

Tony: My wife and I had moved to East Tennessee and everything, semi-retired and our daughter and son-in-law was a few hours away and we were over there one weekend and they said, mom, dad, if you guys start a business again, we’ll move closer cuz we they had our first grandchild.

Brian: What a carrot to dangle in front of mom and dad. That’s mean. We don’t want anything to do with you, but if you open a business.

Tony: Lo and behold, three years later we come up with the idea here and we put it together and looked at what was going.

We originally were actually looking at a Campground and developing a Campground. And we said the thing popped up. And we have an Airbnb also. That we’d been, we’d worked with. And so my wife says, why don’t we look at the glamp and things? So we did. And here we [00:33:00] are. And they’ve moved closer and it’s a family business we’re running.

And we are we do the glamping, but we also being diversified, Adrian mentioned about it, doing groups and everything like that like corporate meetings where they can come and have, get together and everything. But we’re actually set up where we do wedding, a wedding venue, and with it as well.

So we’re not just solely re you know, relying on the glamping side of it. 

Brian: So tell me what’s, what sets Glamping Retro apart? What is the experience that people are having here? 

Sharen: Location. 

Brian: I don’t know where you’re at. You gotta tell me probably we’re, if I was the smart host who did his research before actually popping up here and just talking, then I would know, but, sorry.

Sharen: So we’re 45 minutes north of Asheville, North Carolina, and we’re 30 minutes south of Johnson City, Tennessee. And basically GA Gatlinburg is like maybe an hour and a half, two hours from us. 

Brian: Yeah. That’s a beautiful area of Tennessee. 

Tony: We’re on the northeast side. We’re up we are right in the mountains.

I, when I [00:34:00] say, we’re a little over 3000 feet up our facility is, and it’s up there. We’ve got waterfalls all over. There’s swimming holes there. We’ve got the Appalachian trail that’s there. Of course, we’ve got whitewater rafting. There’s just a lot of activities in the urban area and the development here has been developmental board here has been real accommodating wanting new businesses like this and been very welcoming, for us and everything.

Unlike, I know Adrian, them sounds like they had a lot of struggles in getting started. Ours was lot, much easier. 

Receptive, I should say. 

Brian: So tell me, I’m gonna give you a hard question here and just because Zach mentioned it too, so everybody’s got the hiking trails and the waterfalls and whatever else.

So what, is there something that you put your hat on that glamping, retro is or wants to be? 

Tony: I think is the personal touch that my wife actually does with everything that’s there. There’s I don’t wanna give it all away, but she, there’s just a lot of small personal touches.

When we have honeymooners that come in, we have newly weds or, families or whatever [00:35:00] like that. It’s putting all the little extra things in. When kids come in and everything like that. Put kites into place. And we have 16 acres. There’s nine units up there. We have three houses, two air springs, and six safari luxury tents.

All the tents and everything have full bathrooms, full kitchens, everything. We have mini splits on all the units. Not all. We actually, I think all the, two of the tents, two tents, we still have rustic, those two of them there, primitive. It’s all right on Spivey. There’s a large, we have a creek that’s there that all the units are backed up to the creek.

And then we’ve got a pond that we dug out in a little waterfall there, but then there’s actually larger natural waterfall. Okay. Very good for the personal touches, I think i’s what people have commented and have really. The little touches that are done there. She puts makeup remover style.

It’s just everything, it’s just like you’re, 

yeah, the little things are what add up and make the experience. We all, yeah, 

[00:36:00] we just tell ’em, bring your food in your clothes. That’s all you need. Everything else is there. 

Sharen: And the guests are pretty shocked because we have soap, shampoo, conditioner.

Basically all they have to do is bring their food. And we have very luxury, luxurious bathhouse what Adrian said, just really nice. They say, oh, this is better than our house. And so just put those personal touches to make it more upscale and more glamorous for the people that love the outdoors, but don’t really wanna sleep on a sleeping bag or a blow up mattress.

Brian: It’s really interesting to me, and I’m sure that there’s gonna be a point where this has to change too, just like the accommodations do. And maybe, Zach, I’m interested in hearing your thoughts about this too. Clearly you go above and beyond for the guest experience and for the little things, but it’s, and so this isn’t, don’t take this the wrong way, right?

But it’s very interesting how the bar is oh, there was shampoo and that impressed me still after X number of years, right? Shouldn’t it have leveled up by now into a kite or a [00:37:00] whatever? But it’s interesting. Do you think that changes with saturation as we continue to go forward, or.

Zach: Yeah, I do. I it plays very well into the discussion that we had earlier as the glamping market becomes more saturated.

I remember two years ago when it was good enough for someone to pop a bell, tend in their backyard and they were pulling down 150, $200 a night on Airbnb and going, oh my God, this is brilliant. Why didn’t I think of this sooner? But I think as the industry ex establishes itself a little bit more, as we start to see some of kind of those more industry brands I’m so glad Pasos mentioned their efforts to build a cuz I think that’s really important.

I think, that competition in the marketplace drives places to, to be better. And I think Sharon and Tony are being really humble. If you look at their website, you look at their Instagram this site is absolutely gorgeous. The property that they built is really incredible favorite thing.

Oh, spirit, while you’re talking [00:38:00] show, isn’t it? My favorite thing that I saw is your assembly space your quo set. Yeah. Yeah. I think, again, when we start talking about tying experience back to accommodation, right? And you guys hit the nail on the head, weddings, events, group gatherings, giving a pe people, a place to come.

Because that’s really what you’re selling. You’re selling that memory, you’re selling the experience. It is all those little touches. It’s the very first thing I said, right? We’re selling a hosted experience, and those are the things that, that perceive value to a glancing client, right?

It’s not that you gave them shampoo, it’s that you thought about it you’ve thought about them. You’ve been, we’ve all had that even in nice hotels, and I travel a lot, I’ve seen a lot of hotels. You get in the shower and you look over and you’re like, oh, crap. They put it across on, and you get out half drip and wet, to go get the shampoo right?

Cuz it’s not where you expected it to be. And [00:39:00] so I think it is all those little touches that show you’ve thought about your guests, you’ve thought about their experience, you’ve done little things to make sure that they’re having a better experience. And when people ask what’s the secret sauce?

What’s the magic? How do I do a successful glamping resort? There, there is no magic bullet. But if I had to narrow it down to one thing it’s just that it’s being attentive. It’s thinking about your guests. It’s not one thing. It’s a thousand little things that you’re doing. And Sharon and Tony are absolutely hitting it out of the park.

Tony: We, we’ve got our daughter and son-in-law that they do the social media side of, we’re you’ve seen the troubles we had getting locked in so that they’re they’re, very much responsible for all that side of it. And thank God for ’em.

So we’re, we are blessed.

Zach: And like it or not, whether it’s fair or not, right? A big part of this business is telling your story. And it’s not just targeted Google ads and, [00:40:00] traditional marketing, right? Like social media is a huge part of this industry and what we do.

And that ability to communicate your story of what’s happening through social media it’s, a huge contributing factor to success in this industry. 

Tony: Yes. 

Brian: So where do you see your Sharon and Tony, where are you guys headed in, in the next few years? And then after that, we’re gonna show Adrian and Carol’s website cause it’s only there.

Tony: Ours, you mean for the unit itself? 

Brian: Yeah, for your business. Like where do you, where would you like to take this? Do you want multiple locations? Do you want more units? Do you want are you happy with how it is? 

Tony: Yeah. I think I think we’re happy with, with what it’s doing and where it’s at.

Probably we want to increase, we’d like to see more increases. We just opened up for weddings to do weddings this year. And so we’re looking at, really trying to capitalize on the wedding side of it. And then we’ve got everything in our area. Of course, we’re in the country, so everything in our area, is 99% barn type wedding.

And so what we do have up there is completely unique and different. And and the [00:41:00] people been very receptive. We’re actually on wedding wire and the knot. And so the referrals we’re getting there and what’s HoneyBook or something. So they Everybody that’s came there has been very, it’s completely different.

And so the wedding side I think is, the lampton as well, but the ggl, the wedding side increase the advantage for.

Brian: Yeah, I think it’s interesting. There’s lots of ancillary income opportunities if you have the right land and the right experiences and the I think there’s all kinds of ideas we haven’t even thought of yet.

Probably the UK has thought of everything, but we haven’t thought of yet over here. So I wanna take a look. Anything else, Sharon, Tony, that we should know about your business? 

We are seasonal as well. We opened in April and we shut down the second week of November, typically, because it is, we do get snow in this area pretty heavy.

And then of course it’s cold even with those the tents we’ve got heaters in and everything like that. [00:42:00] The mini splits, they just probably so efficient, so cold. The treehouse and the tear streams are fine, but those, the tents are just difficult. 

Claire: To keep going. Do you have to take your tents down every season?

Tony: No, ma’am. They’re we’ve got solid tongue groove, wood floor structures, and we got ’em insulated underneath and everything for our water lines and our, electric and everything like that. And no, we don’t take ’em down at all. 

Brian: Yeah. Interesting. All right, so I’m gonna, I just wanna be fair since Zach had to go say their website’s good.

Zach, did you look at Caracol’s website too, or did you just Totally, Adrian Carroll. Very nice. All right. I’m just kidding. But let’s look at the site real quick cuz I, I, it is like, it isn’t thing we probably should do this with special guests more often where we just take a look at some of the, at least the visuals, right?

Not necessarily the website, but yeah. So talk us through this, Adrian and Carol, June 22. I know you’ve talked a little bit about it, but just if you call out an image or see it or. What makes. 

Adrian: We put a big central [00:43:00] stretch tent in the picture on the right hand side. There’s this little snug area that we’ve built.

It’s all upcycled materials. It is all old packing timber and that we sanded and reused. And people like, people like that. We are using just upcycling, everything, cable drums for tables, scaffold boards for.. 

Claire: There’s kinda like the meadow. So we just mow paths through the field to people’s tens so that it creates a bit of.. 

Zach: Yeah.

Your own air. 

Claire: Own air each. 

Adrian: Yeah. And it’s all wild, it’s planted wild flower. And it used to be the farmer had asparagus fields and previous to that yeah. And these are the Yeah, the facilities, real upmarket toilets and showers, they’re nice. And again local area, some images at a local area of various castles..

Brian: Curating curating the experience. . Like we were talking about all leads toward this makes it easier for me to pull the trigger and stay here. Yes. Maybe I’ve never been to this area of England, but now I [00:44:00] know, right? 

Zach: And I think seeing that big field picture too it, it makes me think back to the discussion on the ground lease versus acquisition.

I think that’s one of the real benefits to a partnership shared revenue ground lease piece is, when you’re acquiring land, I think a lot of times you feel like I have to maximize this. I have to use every last buildable square foot of this because I have sunk cost in the acquisition of this property.

And so now I need to build enough units and maximize my potential revenue by developing this entire property. And I think that, that land lease, rev share partnership piece where you don’t have as much sunk upfront cost in the land acquisition, it gives you a little more freedom from a design perspective, right?

There is inherent value in just being able to stare at that beautiful meadow and walking [00:45:00] down those pathways surrounded, waist high on both sides. And so I think that’s, maybe one of the unintended benefits, but a different perspective. Real advantage to, yeah. Yeah. Just to having a little more land to work with, right?

And not feeling like we’re so burdened with the debt we took on to, to purchase this property that every glass course has to be, rev share or revenue producing that it’s okay to say, you know what, we’re gonna leave this. Five acre tract and its highest and best use is exactly how it is.

It’s just a pretty place that all of our guests are gonna enjoy. 

Brian: I think there’s more to that too, right? So let’s pretend that they were, that it was just the farmer who had owned the land for 20 years. I think the outside perspective as we’re talking about changes, how you imagine the glamping fitting in and how you, if you’ve been looking at that same plot of land, maybe you have a vision for it, but maybe it’s not the best or the most creative of the, because and so I think that partnership also lends that to working well together in some cases too. [00:46:00] 

Tony: But the pharma lend land off didn’t have a clue.

He didn’t know what he wanted to do with it. He was leaving that ground hallow for the next five years, cuz you have to plant asparagus in cycles. So he was doing nothing. He may have put a couple of horses on to graze, but that was it. So it, he was thinking how can I generate more income from this land?

Brian: So I think there’s value and just sometimes you hear the same thing with us working with marketing, right? Like it’s, I’m too busy or I’ve never stepped back and look at my business from a 20,000 foot view, which is way more than marketing, right?

But it’s just that different perspective of that outside idea or conversation or, working with architect or working with somebody like David from a capital experience. He’s talked to so many different people. I think that’s extremely invaluable, even though you can’t really put a dollar amount on it.

Zach: I can.

Brian: Fine fact [00:47:00] kill the end of the show. That was my grand crescendo of, and now it’s over. I’m just gonna turn off my camera. 

Zach: No, to. To echo your point though I think it is important to, to get some of those outside perspectives. As an example, I was on the property last week and there was one, one area that was really, it had incredible views out over the mountains of North Georgia.

And, there was a creek that was there. It was, it, absolutely gorgeous. Very picturesque. And the property owner that we were walking with, he said, I think this is the perfect spot for a really luxury super elite. This is our presidential suite. It goes right here.

And I asked him a question. I said what if we made this something that was communal instead? So instead of selling this elite experience to just one or two guests, what if this became an area that was just open, a communal gathering space where. Any guest on [00:48:00] property could come down and experience this.

Now we’re adding that value to all of those stays instead of just one stay. And he’s I’m, I’ve never thought about it that way. Again, it is the greedy revenue. I’m a dollars and cents person, right? We’re gonna get this property and this is the best way, or this is the only way I’ve thought about it before that, that, this has to be, some incredible luxury unit, right?

So I think sometimes, getting some different perspectives and having people say what about this? Or Have you thought about this? Forces you to think about things in a different way. 

Brian: I’m excited to see where the industry goes in the next few years and beyond here. Because you’re gonna talk, you’re talking about more of those people will come into the industry, more of those people will have the ideas, like you’re talking about Zach, you’ll have more of those ideas.

David will have more of those ideas, Sharen and Tony and Adrian and Carol. But then there’s gonna be new ideas on top of that we can’t even imagine right now that come from the experience that’s being laid as a foundation now. [00:49:00] And I’m excited to see a future where those ideas come to life too. 

Nobody else needs to be That’s fine. You can all just leave me in. But, 

Tony: What we’re seeing too is over in the towards Gatlinburg and that area over there, there’s, you’re seeing some of the more corporate sided investing into small rental property kinda, type stuff as well.

Just individual investors like a homeowner. 

The corporate side is really kinda jumping same way. 

Brian: Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. I’m sorry, you were breaking up a little bit, but I think I got most of what you’re saying. 

David: Yeah, quick question from me for the, I think another really interesting question about these businesses is always, how much are you.. Zach was talking before about developing in New Hampshire, for example, beautiful.

There are beautiful places [00:50:00] all over the United States and the uk and some of those beautiful places are on the radar of the traveling public already, and some of them are off the radar and some of them are at the edge of the radar. And I think that’s another theme I think in glamping and outdoor hospitality is.

Which is really relevant for the, for the investor world is how much are you trying to, induce demand, get people to come somewhere where they don’t really, they’re not really familiar with already or there’s not really a great place to stay, have a good experience already, versus how much are you trying to go fishing in a pond that’s already well-stocked, if you like, with with visitors.

And so I, that’s something I hear a lot, is we feel like we’re doing not just marketing for our property, but also destination marketing for this entire area. Because Yeah, we’re trying to help put it on [00:51:00] the map. And I think that’s a really, I think that’s like a unique value add for glamping because, like what you were saying, Sharon and Tony, I think there’s probably a lot of places in the US where municipalities welcome that activation cuz it helps create, more differentiated experience that they can use as an advertisement for the whole area.

But it also, I mean it just, it makes it, it just means there’s one extra piece of lift required for the marketing that, the more boring kind of high side motel doesn’t really have to worry about so much cuz they’re just catching people cause they’re driving by. So I, I was curious, for both Sharon and Tony and for the pass officers as well, how much do you feel like for your property, you’re trying to wave the flag and advertise not just the property, the whole area that you’re embedded within.

Claire: We signed up to Visit Kent membership last year. Just when we started [00:52:00] off we were lucky enough in May to go to the Houses of Parliament with Visit Kent to, promote sustainable tourism in the area. So that was a really good opportunity to meet local stakeholders and partners in the tourism industry that are all trying to do the same thing to promote Kent as a destination.

But yeah, marketing’s tough. You’ve gotta be out there partnering and networking and doing it all. Even if only to meet local suppliers such as vineyards or, people that produce things so that you can offer your clients an experience. You need to know everybody around you, don’t you?

Brian: Yeah, I and we’ve only got we’re over time now, but just as a nod to Zach ai, cuz he was waiting for me to say it here. Like when you’re talking about marketing though, we’ve actually had this conversation with our clients now that you can use these new tools that allow you to be more efficient.

We’ve talked about promoting the area and writing [00:53:00] blog posts about the local waterfall that nobody knows or maybe doesn’t even have a name yet. Or the hiking trail or where to go, bird watching or where to, right? And so all those things can now be done, I think with a little bit less hassle and a little bit less time devoted and allow you to curate that experience.

And I think that’s even more important with glamping when people are looking to have that outdoors nature. What do I do in this 3000 feet up on a mountain? Experience. So I think there’s a big opportunity there for people who embrace that style of marketing with or without ai. Any final thoughts?

Anybody else have anything? No. All right. Thank you Adrian and Carol, appreciate you being here all the way from London. I know it’s late over there, so I wanna let you guys go on time if we can. Sharon and Tony, appreciate learning about your experience up in Tennessee. I’m looking forward to maybe we can have you back later on for another update.

And then David and Zach as always, for your expertise, wisdom, and all the things you continue to share on a monthly basis. We will see you guys next week for another episode of Fireside [00:54:00] shows. 

Tony: Take care guys.