MC Fireside Chats – July 10th, 2024

This is MC Fireside Chats, a weekly show featuring conversations with thought leaders, entrepreneurs, and outdoor hospitality experts who share their insights to help your business succeed. Hosted by Brian Searle, the founder and CEO of Insider Perks, empowered by insights from Modern Campground, the most innovative news source in the industry.

Brian Searl:

Welcome everybody to another episode of MC Fireside Chats. My name is Brian Surill with Insider Perks. Excited to be here with you and my dead plant behind me that I can’t seem to keep alive over the winter in Canada. It’s the only background I got. So super excited to be here for another Glamping-focused episode. We’ve got Todd Winperry. We’ve got Zachary Stoltenberg on here. We’ve got Sue Hammond, which is one of our special guests. And we’ve got Chris, the Glamping guy, and Angelo Miller from Creekside. So you guys want to run around just for us recurring guests real quick and just introduce yourselves and talk about your specialties real quick? I’m going to start with Todd. I can’t hear you, Todd.

Todd Wynne-Parry:

Yep, there you go. the area

Zach Stoltenberg:

I’m Zach Stoldenberg. I’m with Clockwork Architecture based in Kansas City. We’re a general practice architecture and interior design firm, and we specialize in outdoor hospitality. So we help people build glamping, camping, and luxury RV resorts all around the country.

Brian Searl:

Thanks for being here as always, Zach. Angel?

Angele Miller:

Hi, everyone. I’m Angèle Miller from Atlantic Canada in New Brunswick. And I’m the founder for a five-star award-winning glamping resort. And we’re also the founder of a franchising division for glamping.

Brian Searl:

Awesome. Thanks for being here, as always, Angèle. And Sue Hammond, our special guest for the week.

Suzanne Hammond:

Hello. Thank you for having me on. I’m Sue Hammond. I run with my partner Top of the Woods, which is out in Pembrokeshire, Wales in the UK. And we are a nature focused camping and glamping site. All right.

Brian Searl:

And last but not least, Chris, the glamping guy. Is there a glamping girl, Chris?

Chris Jeub:

Not that I know of, but the glamping guy is definitely make sure that we’re in the first lady. My wife, Wendy is the glamping gal. Maybe that’s it. Well, okay. I’m Chris tube, the glamping guy. I call myself the glamping guy, but really I’m in the weeds and walking the walk as I run monument glamping here in monument, Colorado. And I left teaching to do glamping, so I reconnected with my teaching roots when I felt like, gosh, I could really teach other landowners how to build safe, legal, and profitable glamping operations, learn from all of my mistakes, and be the glamping guy I wish I had five years ago when I started. And that’s what I do at Glamping.

Brian Searl:

Did you get a new microphone? Because your audio sounds crisp and clear and way more well-funded than my audio. Very nice, yes. Interesting. Okay. All right. Well, before we go on to Sue, I want to tell her story, obviously. Guys, do you have anything on your plate that’s come across your desk in the last month or so with relation to the glamping industry or anything you’ve been consulting or working on that you think we should be paying attention to or know about?

Chris Jeub:

You know, if I can, I just got done with my first public hearing. That was a big deal. That’s a big, that was, I have three special use permits for operating here in Monument, Colorado, but that third one had a neighborhood opposition that rose up. And it really was like, wow. Zach’s very familiar with it because one of the opposing neighbors, we sat on the back deck last October and he stood in opposition to it with a handful of other neighbors. So that’s that Glamping Guys YouTube video. I’ve got a handful of videos and I summed it up and I’m very proud of the fact that we We were victorious with the Board of County Commissioners. We got the special use permit on a vote of three to one. But that was a trial that landowners need to go through to quote unquote get legal and run their operations. So that’s the latest news in my area.

Brian Searl:

I mean, it’s interesting. We can spend probably a couple minutes talking about this and maybe Zach, you want to weigh in on this too? I did see an article about, you know, permitting for, I think, a glamping place. I can’t remember the state. It was in Modern Campground or Woodalls this morning. It was denied a liquor license permit because of local opposition. And I just wonder, is it worth having a brief conversation about if you are someone who is developing a glamping disorder, maybe going after a new permit or expanding, what are the best ways to approach your local area from an educational standpoint, from an I want to work with you, I want to be a partner, I don’t want to be what you think I am, perhaps is a nuisance or a burden on the community. Is there any tips that you guys have for that?

Zach Stoltenberg:

The thing that I would start with is I would say being proactive. A lot of the clients that we work with, in fact I actually got up bright and early this morning for a DRC hearing on a project in Florida. And that was a kind of preliminary first round hearing where we sat down with planning and zoning and public works and kind of all the different department heads from each thing. And we introduced kind of our concept and what we wanted to do. And each of them had certain comments or concerns and some questions for us. And I favor kind of starting that process early. Having those discussions, reaching out to those officials, working with them. We’ve had a pretty good track record. when we’ve taken that approach and kind of reached out to the jurisdiction early on, involved them in talks, made modifications to our proposals. I’m actually very proud to say that this year for 2024, we’ve gotten unanimous approval for every single project that we have submitted on behalf of our clients. You know you jinxed yourself, right?

Brian Searl:

You just literally jinxed yourself.

Zach Stoltenberg:

Probably. And actually the thing that I’m most excited about is one of those unanimous approvals was actually a reversal of a denial of a project from a year previous. And we kind of regrouped and we did some additional work. got some additional permits approved through the state level, and then came back in for a round two. We said, you know, these are the concerns you guys had. We’ve addressed it. It’s all been submitted. It’s all been approved by the state. And so they gave us unanimous approval. So I’m a big fan of kind of following that process, going through it, building those relationships, and fostering that collaboration. Because by the time we get to a submittal, we want to hand them something that they can say yes to. And then the second part, and I think Chris could probably speak just as well to this as I can, is reaching out to your neighbors, to people in the community, to your local business association, whoever it is, because you need that support. You’re always going to have some folks that are going to be opposed to what you do. You can’t keep everybody happy. you’ll always have a couple of naysayers. But when you can really demonstrate that support like Chris did, and you get three, four people that stand up and oppose you, but you get 30 that stand up and say, hey, we think this is great, we love it, that can really work in your favor.

Chris Jeub:

If I could piggyback on that and just say the relationships part that you mentioned, Zach, that is paramount, not just with neighbors, but also with the bureaucrats, the ones that are forcing everyone to obey the code. Five years ago, really glamping, I didn’t know what glamping was when I fell into this, and I spent a lot of time explaining to to planning directors and building code enforcers and neighbors and relatives, just what in the world glamping is. And now it’s becoming more of a household term and people are getting their heads around it. And there’s no snowballing anybody. There’s no snowballing ourselves. So we have to legitimize. Well, the more we explain it to people, the more we legitimize our own business. So I guess it came after a while, it was like, well, you know, if I mess up or I get dinged by the county or by a building enforcement guy or a neighbor is disgruntled of some sort or angry, I say that it’s kind of an opportunity to legitimize the business and to explain myself to people and explain what a wonderful thing we’ve got going on to overcome the ignorance that might be out there. And I have found that in the end, It’s more people have been for it than against it. In fact, my story is, yeah, right. It comes with understanding, right? We have, we had, you mentioned a reversal, Zach. Well, our Zach was, Zach called me after the, after one of the meetings, the it, so he was watching closely, but the, we had a planning commission meeting and, and I was really raked over the coals. I’ve got that on my, my YouTube channel. I put it up there. You can actually watch it. But those planning commissioners were not nice. They were really in my face. You’re a rule breaker. You’re just this hillbilly nobody that’s trying to ruin the neighborhood. And we got voted down seven to two. But we were able to regroup with my lawyers and my family and with neighbors. And we got a lot of support. So once we got to the planning commission, we had a good 20 people stand up and say that what happened three weeks ago is not characteristic of what monument clamping is. and they supported us. We had the Chamber of Commerce, we had the neighborhood and stuff like that stand up on our behalf. But you know what? Even though it seemed like that’s a fight, and most people will kind of back down from a quote-unquote fight, I mean, afterwards I shook hands and hugged my neighbors. I mean, these are people I’ve known for 24 years, and even though they felt like this was a detriment to their neighborhood, They gave it their best shot. I gave it my best shot. I think we left as friends after the meeting. Although some people weren’t satisfied. That’s a given. You’re not going to please everybody.

Brian Searl:

Again, nobody ever is going to, you’re never going to satisfy a hundred percent of people, right? If you try, you’re just running in circles. But I’m curious.

Chris Jeub:

Finishing it validates my business. See how it kind of like, my stake is even further in the ground. you know, not just metaphorically, but really that it’s taking hold even more so in the community, even though we’ve gone through a trial. I see people back down at the first neighborhood, and I’m kind of sad at that. It’s like you’re bringing a great a great thing to your neighborhood and to enroll residential property. So there is legal, there is a legal process, a special use process. It’s a huge, it’s a big deal, but it is possible and it is allowed and it is legal. So going down that path and making sure you get your permits in place is a pathway that my planning department actually paved the way for me and I walked it. But some people, I know there’s probably listeners out there who might, the first letter of violation that you get and the slap in the hand you get, you curl up and go, oh, well, not for me. And what’s left is people aren’t outdoors on your beautiful property. And that to me is sad.

Brian Searl:

and blame some people for giving up though because it sounds to me and and granted we usually talk on these shows about problems versus you know having the guest on that says well everything went smoothly and I love my planning commission and right we were hugging and kissing the whole time and it was wonderful uh and so I think maybe I have a little bit of a skewed percept perception there right because there probably are some planning commissions who are forward thinking and no glamping and want to welcome it into their communities but is there a sense of Why there’s such always negative assumptions in the beginning versus like positivity and openness and then asking hard questions. Does that make sense?

Chris Jeub:

Well, they definitely look at you like you have three heads when you mentioned you’re putting up strangers in your backyard and your tent.

Brian Searl:

But it’s not just glamping, right? It’s generally like there’s an immediate, and I want to talk about glamping to be clear, but there’s an immediate perception of you’re doing something wrong instead of let’s hear you out and figure out then if you’re doing something. It’s like innocent until proven guilty, right?

Zach Stoltenberg:

I think the bigger issue that I see often is just Anytime there is change, anytime there’s something new or unusual or different or, you know, I remember back one of my very, very first projects ever was a massive RV resort and there was a big open field and the landowners had leased it out and they ran buffalo, they ran cattle, they ran all sorts of livestock on it. And three neighbors who lived across the highway from this property showed up at our first public hearing and they were all just adamantly opposed to the development of an RV resort there. And I remember I asked the question that I thought would be really telling. And I said, well, what would you guys be okay with going in there? And the one woman stood up and she goes, we don’t want anything in there. We like staring at the nice, pretty grass pasture and all the livestock over there. We like watching the buffalo. And I was like, well, I understand that. But that was telling that they weren’t really opposed to our project in particular or anything that we were proposing to do. It was just any kind of development that was going to change that. And they were not going to be staring at Buffalo out their front yard anymore.

Brian Searl:

So I can kind of understand, right? I kind of get it.

Zach Stoltenberg:

I mean, I can appreciate that position and those concerns. But at the same time, we don’t own a view. And this was a property that had been listed for sale for six or seven years. If they really wanted that property to go unchanged, they could have bought it and left it exactly how it was. But my client bought it and paid several million dollars for it and their interest was in doing something with it, developing it. Thanks to private property owner rights in most parts of the country, they were going to be allowed to develop it. I think that first hurdle is just change. It’s going to be different. I think specifically related to glamping and outdoor hospitality, it is a little bit unusual. In most cases, if we can talk to those people build some of those bridges, fill in some of the gaps. We help them understand that this is a very low impact type of development over all of the other things that we could be doing on that site. So, you know, we had a project in Arkansas that we were proposing, I don’t know, 50, 55 glamping units on that had a lot of opposition from the neighbors. And, you know, we did the calculation for the number of acreage and everything else. And we came back and we told them, guys, under the current zoning, we could put 600 houses out here if we wanted to. And that would have a much larger impact to traffic and noise and everything else in this area than the handful of tents and wagons that we’re proposing. So I think sometimes it is different, but different isn’t always bad. And it’s just how you present it.

Brian Searl:

What do you think, Todd?

Todd Wynne-Parry:

Oh, yeah, I was going to mention a couple of things. One, I delved deeply into this issue last year. I think I wrote an article in Clamping Business Americas on it, which it was called. Are we entitled to entitlements? It is the number one sort of roadblock for growth and supply, and the demand for the product is still crazy high compared to the supply in the market, and particularly in specific destinations. And so it’s an interesting issue, and there are two sides to it, and every place is different, but there always is two sides to it. I think it is worth asking the question going into it up front. Am I entitled to these entitlements or am I pushing the bounds a little bit too much and and that sort of ends up guiding your I think guiding your your direction. And the other thing getting back to the subject of what’s new and what’s happening in the in the world that might affect all of this in the US. I’m sorry for our Canadian and over and or overseas folks. But a big thing happened last week or a week and a half ago that largely went under the radar. But the Supreme Court basically struck down a thing called Chevron deference. And Chevron deference basically gave all agencies sort of ultimate power in terms of what they do and how they set laws and regulations and things. A little fisherman family out of New England. was able to strike it down because I think, I’m not sure what its agency was, wanted them to pay $700 a month to have their inspectors on boats and it was going to kill their business. Anyway, that will have an effect on our world as it affects agencies throughout and what they can do and what they can’t do. It’ll probably help our business and might hurt our business at the same time. But it was an interesting, it’s an interesting bit of legislation, not legislation, ruling that took place. So we might be talking about this again in the next year or so as we deal with Forest Service, BLM, other agencies that we seem to bump into all the time. Who knows? But it’s a big deal.

Brian Searl:

I mean, I did definitely hear about that. I think I fall on the skeptical side of what some businesses may end up doing with less regulation if that comes to pass, but I don’t believe, like, I wouldn’t lump glamping businesses into there, right? I think they’re going to be stewards of, most of them are going to be stewards of the land and things like that, right? Because they want to be the landscaping and all that, but I hope you’re right.

Todd Wynne-Parry:

Well, I think for the main thing is that whether you’re trying to develop your land for glamping or having a fishing business or whatever you might be doing, you had no voice before you couldn’t go.

Zach Stoltenberg:

And you should.

Todd Wynne-Parry:

And so, yeah, whether it’s good or bad, it, it, it should remain your entire life shouldn’t be, um, dictated by an unelected official that can work outside of the law, which was kind of the problem. A hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Searl:

Um, any thoughts on, how that’s going to make our lives easier or harder? Angèle, you’ve been pretty quiet over there. I know that’s not a US thing.

Angele Miller:

Yeah. Well, for me, on my end, I know that when we first started our glamping, there was actually no rules around that. I didn’t need to get an engineer to get an official stamp and all the regulatory around everything. But you know, as like what I’ve seen shifting and it’s so important because the glamping industry is kind of a newer industry in many ways, you know, for us, but it’s growing pretty fast, you know, and as it’s growing, all of those laws and rules keep changing. and adjusting, and putting more of a system around that, putting more rules. And the thing too, with us doing glamping, we’re looking to create outside of the norm, into these beautiful areas by rivers, by ocean, mountains, places where most of the time they don’t want that land to be developed or tap into. They want to control that as protected land or all these different things. But at the same time, what we’re creating is wonderful experiences in nature and outside of the norm to get more outdoor and enjoy those spaces. So I think, you know, I’m hoping that it will get easier as the industry evolves and people start to understand it more, but it takes like a small community just like us here, you know, to stand up and push those boundaries and those lines and form those relationships, but also educate, you know, for us here with the commission, we had to educate them, you know, we’re not destroying an entire forest. We’re not looking to like, you know, destroy all this land and do that and cause situations to the environment. If something will help to protect it in many ways with what we’re doing and also having people enjoy that space more. So I think as we bridge the gap with that, hopefully it’ll become easier, you know, but I think that as it’s evolving, like things are changing and changing fast, you know, everywhere.

Brian Searl:

I think it will because again, I think it’s, it’s all the perception, right? And so if you have more glamping businesses who are coming along, who are being stewards of the land, who are, you know, trying to get, as you say, more people out into the outdoors and nature, which is a great cause and doing it so in a way that is subtle and acknowledging the nature that’s around them instead of building the 400 house development, right? For example, not that there’s anything wrong with that, but just using our example. Um, I think there’s more trust that comes from those planning commissions when they see repeatedly hey, he’s doing a good thing, hey, he’s doing a good thing, and maybe there’s just kind of a bad taste in some of their mouths from previous people who haven’t been as accommodating or willing or kind as Glamping developers.

Zach Stoltenberg:

Is that maybe fair? That’s a really strong point, Brian, because I would say, in our experience, and we’ve worked in probably 30 different states on different resorts around the country, the single most difficult jurisdiction that we have had to work with. It’s in a very popular area around one of the top national parks. And they dealt with, you know, those early days of glamping where there was no regulation. And it was almost like whack-a-mole to them. You know, people would buy land, open up these operations, no regulatory environment, no permits, no nothing. And for every one that they would come in and shut down with a cease and desist, two more would spring up. And people were making fistfuls of cash in short periods of time. And so they would easily open something for eight months, nine months out of the year, turn 100 grand on it, and then the county would send them a cease and desist, and they’d sell the land. And they’d pick up their tents and move it. And so as a result of kind of that environment in some of those early days, This particular county, um, had kind of a knee jerk response and went kind of overboard the other direction with extremely burdensome regulations and limitations and. Even for folks that want to do it legally and want to go through that process and want to create a safe environment for guests, it’s extremely expensive, time-consuming, and difficult. The county has made it that way because they really want to discourage it. They don’t want it there. But I think a lot of it is paying for the sins of those that came before us, just what you said. Yeah, there certainly are people that are there that are doing it responsibly and have gone through the process and the challenges. But it’s a tough road to hoe in some areas of the country. And so I think that’s another argument back to the very first thing when we.

Brian Searl:

I think we lost Zach. the polls work with the jurisdiction Nope, maybe you can’t hear me. Okay. We’ll come back to use that. Keep your powerful point at the tip of your tongue.

Chris Jeub:

I’ll finish that thought, honestly. The, the, the idea is, is that I see the two, two spectrums here. There’s, there’s people who are kind of shaking in their boots. They don’t want to do anything until they get everything 100% permitted and legit and, and, and, and allowed. But it really you’re dealing with planning departments and building departments where we are inherently different. We we are awkward. I really identified what you what what’s what you are saying and gel because the. we are an inherently creative industry. And the building codes and the planning codes have years, decades, maybe even centuries of code that they pull out and they’re expecting you to fit into their code. It’s hard to do. And so honestly, I like to say I’m probably the most legal glamping operation in El Paso County right now. but I’m probably not 100% legal. I still have, I still have to figure out how to fit in there. Sure. You want to say that publicly or? Sure. Sure. I’ve got, I’ve got the violations to prove it, but however I’m not, that doesn’t, the tanks don’t roll in and shut you down. It just doesn’t happen that way. That’s, that’s, that’s a misconception where that, that owner, that operator or the one who wants to open up, they, they have that gift of hospitality and they want to open up something on their property. Figure out how to get it done. But don’t get yourself in analysis paralysis and don’t move forward. And I feel like that’s what I see. I see a lot of my students suffer, kind of put obstacles in their way going, oh, I just can’t do it until I have a business plan or if I have this. And they put the obstacles in their way. And that’s too bad. I like to encourage people to go ahead and get something open.

Brian Searl:

I mean, I think I agree with you, right? But I think I would just also caution and make sure that people who are listening just

Chris Jeub:

Like that we’re not advocating to like go around your planning commission and ask- I’m not advocating for setting up an illegal operation. I’m not doing that.

Brian Searl:

I didn’t think you were. I just wanted to spell it out to the people who don’t have as much experience as you do.

Chris Jeub:

But when you look at what you have to do to get permitted, it’s mammoth. I know. That’s why I run a marketing agency. It doesn’t require any permits. Yeah. Well, if I would have looked at it five years ago, what I needed to do to do it, I probably would have turned around and gone back to teaching. It’s like, but it is worth it to go through those hoops and to keep going. And the thing is, is that we have a planning department, at least here in my county, who five years ago, they didn’t know what I was doing either. So it was like, there was a lot of ignorance to go around. And sooner or later, right now, if I can get just a little specific, I fit into what’s called a recreation camp in my county. So I’m able to get permitted as a recreation camp, which is a blessing to me. I didn’t know it existed. And the planning department actually suggested that, they looked at what I was trying to do and they said, go this route, get permitted this way. Someday there will be a glamping, a glamping subset in the code. It’ll be codified somehow because people will know what glamping is. It’s not an RV park, it’s not a campground, it’s a glampground. And, and that will, that day will come as, as the government kind of catches up with the ingenuity that’s, and the demand, what Zach was saying, you know, yeah, one tank comes down, two more pop up. That’s the kind of demand that’s out there. And the, and the, the government entities will eventually catch up to that. And then there will be something more established.

Brian Searl:

All right, I want to pivot for a second to Sue, make sure we give her enough time as our special guest there. She’s been patiently waiting. But I think some of what she’s going to talk about is in the vein of this evolution, right? And I think Sue, I want you to introduce your glamping operation and tell us a little about how it gets started and things like that. But I think we’re going to talk about sustainability, right?

Suzanne Hammond:

Well, yeah, yeah, I think so. I mean, it’s quite interesting listening to your perspectives around getting the business set up, because there’s a lot of crossover, I have to say, because we started, we started our business about 11 years ago. So and when we started in the UK, because I think we’re a little bit ahead of like the US and I don’t know about Canada in terms of the glamping sort of experience and stuff like that. But again, when we started, absolutely nobody really understood what it was that we were offering. And, you know, we fit into no boxes and we had to work out how we were going to sort of make it work. And, you know, there was lots of things that we had to try and overcome. I mean, there wasn’t even anything sort of, you know, the licensing in terms of the business was one side of it. But then, you know, looking at sort of, you know, how do you, you know, if you want to put a wood burner in a glamping unit, you know, there was like, legal ways of doing that that only was like for a holiday cottage but not a campsite and all that kind of stuff so you know I completely hear what you guys are going through and the experiences and and all I would probably say is that it’s still very much an evolving space you know I mean how people define glamping has changed so much that it’s actually moved away from the idea of camping you know I mean some people it’s really a holiday cottage, but people call it glamping, because from a marketing point of view, and from a customer’s point of view, that’s what they’re looking for. But, you know, going back to the point around the sustainability, so the way that we sort of wanted to approach our business was very much to have sustainability at the heart of what we did, because that’s what we believed in as people. That’s why we made the life change to go from our careers at the time to sort of do something for ourselves. We wanted it to have heart and soul and we wanted to do something really that reflected how we wanted to live our lives in regards to that. So a couple of the things around the sustainability element to us is very much about an ethos as well as just sort of hitting certain boxes. We didn’t sort of set out to just we’re going to be a sustainable site and we need to do X, Y, and Z. It’s just that every decision, be it a business decision that we made was, you know, is this aligned with how we want to run our business, the values we want to have. And sustainability is a multi-layered conversation, right? It’s a multi-layered conversation that is about wildlife. It’s about nature. It’s about biodiversity. It’s about employment. It’s about your value within your local community. It’s about the guest experience. It’s all of that. and you know and sometimes the answers and questions you have fall neatly in the box you know what answer to you need to sort of go down and other times you have to debate that and work through the kind of things that you know aren’t that black and white and you have to work out how best to do that to offset a guest experience versus you know is that the right thing in terms of the technology we should be using. So you know The way that we looked at it was, like I said, from an ethos point of view, a value, let’s call it. So one of the things we wanted to sort of take away is that with the land that we had, we very much wanted to be able to talk 20 years from now that if we never existed and the business sort of wasn’t there anymore, what impact would we have on that landscape? And actually what we wanted was not just to preserve it, it was actually to improve it. So the way that we approach the business model is that we use approximately about 15% of the land for the business as in terms of the guest experience. And then the 85% is given over to wildlife. And then we use the business to drive our decisions about improving that land in terms of habitat, in terms of protecting things, you know, whatever it is, you know, that we’re sort of going through that. So let me give you an example. So part of our part of our landscape includes a woodland, an ancient woodland. So, you know, what we wanted to do was plant trees. So, we’ve dedicated as part of every booking that we make that comes to our site, a guest that comes to our site, we plant a tree every winter for that, you know, for that booking. So, in the same way that we’re attracting then people who are interested and have the same values that we have, and want to feel connected to that nature and that environment and have a stake in it. OK, it’s a small thing, but small little things add up to the big things, OK? You know, we’re not going to fix the world problems in one go and all that kind of stuff, but all these small little decisions that we make that sort of enable people to get close to nature, to be part of nature, to care about nature, to understand the value it gives them as much as the value we need to protect the nature. all adds to that overall experience. Because people come away to our site to really detox from the modern world, in all honesty. And I suspect that’s probably the same with you guys, right? So we don’t have cars on any of our pictures, except for two. So everybody has to. They arrive. They get hosted by us. And they get checked in. And then we get a wheelbarrow. And we cart their things. Or they cart their things to their pitch. And we’ve got, you know, luxury glamping units, safari lodges, and all that kind of stuff. But that process of getting your things out of a car and putting it in a wheelbarrow and taking it to your pitch, that slowing down of pace, breathing in the fresh air, looking at the landscape around you, starts a process of actually relaxation. And people, you know, we have people that are like, oh my God, I’ve got too much in my car. I’ve got to like, I’ve got to have my car by my pitch, you know, I can’t function. And we win them over. We win them over. You know, we’re quite sort of black and white, so sorry, we can’t have pitches in the car for various reasons, and I could get into the technicalities of why. But, you know, it wins people over, because what they recognise is that when they get to the pitch, and they wake up the following morning, it’s quiet, right? They haven’t had to deal with lights glowing into their tents at 11 o’clock at night as people get back listening to music. The kids are safe. the playing in the long grass, you know, it’s all of that. So, you know, going back to the point about sustainability, I mean, I could list off a number of projects that we’ve done and we’re planning to do and will indeed carry on doing what we do. But I think it really comes from a place of really wanting to engage people in the experience of nature and getting them to really care about that experience. And you can do that by them seeing the benefit it has on them. So, you know, just a walk in the woods, looking for the waterfall as a family, right? There’s no GPS down there, they quite often get lost. I’ve done a hand-drawn map that needs to change every year because the forestry tracks change. But you know what, they come back from that, they may be sore, they may be tired, but they’ve had fun. They maybe even had an argument, right, trying to get back. But what they’ve had is quality time as a family, right? or quality time with a partner, or quality time with your friends. There’s a lot of stories that they’ll have around the campfire going forward with those kind of experiences. So, you know, I’m sure I could take up the whole sort of, you know, podcast talking about, but I guess that’s how we’ve approached it, is that we really want to be, like you said, stewards of, you know, not to be stewards of the environment that we’re around, and that we don’t just want to protect it, we actually want to enrich it. And through enrichment and caring, that way, you know, people also benefit from it as well as the wildlife. And then, you know, there’s also the community that benefits from it, too. So, you know, there’s a lot there to unpack, I guess, just in those few statements, I guess.

Brian Searl:

So I think I have a two-part question for you, and then maybe we’ll help our audience, right? You’re clearly passionate about sustainability. I think I am, too. Maybe not as much as you, but that doesn’t, right? I should be more, probably. If you look at the guest perspective of all the things that glamping operators could do to make, if they wanted to be more sustainable, to make their land and their experience and what they’re building more sustainable, is there a couple things that you can cite that have helped achieve that sustainability for you, but the guests have really noticed? that have made an impact, because some of the sustainability goes unnoticed, right? Because that’s the point of it, is to go unnoticed. So are there certain things that you feel like are benefits to the guests that make them want to come there, that are visible, that they can see impact their experience?

Suzanne Hammond:

I think it’s the overall guest experience of them coming to stay in a space where, because we struggle, we have satellite broadband, and we have pretty much no mobile signal. OK, so the fact that they get disconnected from that space, and you know, that’s not my doing. That’s just because we’re deeply remote, you know, in UK terms anyway. But I think, you know, I can sort of call out lots of things like, you know, yes, it’s nice to look on the vistas of, you know, new trees being planted and things like that. But I think people do inherently care about those things. And they want you as a business to make those decisions. So they can be part of that. And I think also, I mean, I don’t know if it’s such a big topic on your side of the waters. But from our side, since COVID, there’s been a huge, huge discussion around well-being and people connecting and being mindful and being in nature and having that you know, that, that, that, you know, that white noise of modern day life just sort of drowning away, because they want to connect with each other. And that’s as much with their families. I mean, a lot of families spend their, you know, their working, you know, their working week just going through lists of things they need to do, not having a laugh with the children or playing with the children. And, you know, that just gives them an escape of, you know, being able to do that, you know, just providing that sort of space and allowing them to do that in a way that they think is respectful to the environment around them. So I don’t think it’s just one or two things is going to make it magically work. I think it has to come from a attitude and an outlook of creating an environment that is enriching and is going to benefit both the wildlife and for people. And they sort of connect to that, I think. And I think it’s something that is quite primal for humans. Being around a campfire, is there anything better? You know, sometimes be with friends, be it by yourself. You know, somehow we all feel connected to that, do we not? You know, and I think that’s what’s attractive about camping and glamping. So, you know, I don’t think it’s just like one or two things. I think it’s really an attitude. And I think people want us as owners to be making the right decisions so they can buy into, you know, the right things of how they want, you know, that experience to be for them.

Brian Searl:

Okay, second part of my question, then I want to turn it over to our regular recurring guests who I’m sure have questions for you. The second part of my question is, What would you say to the people out there? And I know that this is not everybody, right? But the way I was, I don’t want to say raised, but the types of things that I was exposed to as I went from a child to an adult was mostly a perception from other people that sustainability was very expensive and it was not worth the money that you put into it. There were cheaper ways to do things if you were running a business and things like that, right? So what would you say to the people who are watching the show who may have that perception? Are there things that you could give them as examples that this isn’t, not that it isn’t as expensive as you thought necessarily, but the benefits and the payoff are worth it in the end type thing?

Suzanne Hammond:

Yeah, so if I put my business head on, you know, does sustainability, you know, create you know, does that, you know, is that the right business decision? Okay, so I’m not, you know, it’s not all just hippie stuff and out here, let’s all like, hang out in nature and stuff. So, you know, some of the things, for example, that we’ve put in place, that is, you know, you would look at from a sustainability point of view is things like, you know, you know, air source, you know, air source heating, we’ve got solar panels and things like that with To give you an indication, in the summer we have quite a high operational usage around electricity. I can’t give you the numbers, but if we were on the national grid to consume the electricity from the national grid in a more traditional way, our electricity bills would be through the roof. with the amount of freezers we have to run, with the amount of washing we have to do, and things like that, just by virtue that we’ve got 130 people on site. Now, having solar panels in place when we’re using it at peak time, i.e. in the summer, so they’re the most effective and efficient there, is also good business sense. You know, it supports your, you know, your cost line, basically, you know, your operation cost line. And that, you know, would make a huge difference. So, you know, there are sort of lots of things that are very practical and are good business decisions, but they’re sustainable decisions about how you do things. You know, let me think of another sort of example to give you. So, compost loo is very sexy. But conversation about, you know, the ideal situation is to have a closed-loop system, right, where, you know, it costs me to remove waste, human waste, and, you know, to get it carried away. So, you know, we have a situation where, you know, we have, in our infield facilities, because they’re off-grid, we do have regular sort of toilets as well, but in those facilities, they’re compost loos. And, you know, With the trees that we’ve got on site, you let that compost down, and then that compost is used for feeding the trees. That’s part of the environment that you’re benefiting and the wildlife that you’re supporting. Now, OK, it’s a small example. But again, that’s a sustainable decision. That’s harking to a closed-loop system where you can bring it around and become more self-sufficient effectively in that regard.

Brian Searl:

And it saves you money.

Suzanne Hammond:

Yeah, yeah, I mean, they’re good business decisions, you know, and, you know, so there’s lots of examples that you can do, you know, you can do that are sustainable. It’s not always about the high end technology, so all things out there, sometimes they’re quite low tech. And again, it comes back to having the the right attitude. So another example, you know, a lot of glamping operations will buy tents, and then because the following year, they will, oh, yeah, I’ll give you this example here. So the following year, they will then throw away those tents and then buy new ones, or landfill, right? I think in the 11 years that we have had, we have maintained our tents, and maybe I think we’ve decommissioned one, and we spend a lot of time doing maintenance. And, you know, we fix things, and we patch things up, not particularly, you know, you know, big sort of, you know, big tick marks in the sustainability bit, but it’s about an attitude, right? So, you know, that means that we give them longevity, we provide local work, you know, in the long term, we’re not buying, you know, tents every season, we’re not doing landfill, you know, it’s all about sort of creating sort of the right attitude about delivering, you know, the right thing around sustainability. I mean, I guess I don’t even think of it in those words because it seems very technical. It’s just the way that we sort of approach things. You know, another thing we have, you know, we’ve got 17 glamping units and we have built and made all of the beds and quite a lot of the furniture. And a lot of that furniture has been sourced from either the local woods or is Welsh wood. And we have managed to sustain you know, crafts people over the winter, right? That’s a sustainable attitude because you’re providing sort of local work and you’re sort of adding value within your local community. Now, the alternative to that is I go onto T-Move and I buy lots of furniture and put that inside my glamping unit. But what I’ve delivered is, you know, something that’s got heart and soul where someone has created a unique piece of furniture for my glamping accommodation. And yes, in the long run, You know, it may be, you know, more expensive because I’ve had to pay for the wood and I’ve had to pay for someone to craft it. But I’ll tell you now, it will last longer and I won’t have to change it every two years because it’ll break. So it’s about sort of making those kind of decisions, really, which are lots of small decisions. But it’s about sort of, you know, not throwing things away, you know, doing quality, working with local people, you know, making your experience more unique above your competitors and the way you do that. is by doing something a little bit different. So it’s that kind of thing, really.

Brian Searl:

Guys, ladies, any thoughts?

Angele Miller:

I think it’s so amazing to listen to you. You have so much passion into what you’re doing. And so I’m looking forward to checking out your glamping place, hopefully, when I get to meet you one day. Yeah, for sure. I think that, you know, as she’s sharing, like the wellness and everything is kind of growing. And I think from my perspective, also here, as we’re developing these glamping sites, and for people to come and experience, one of the big thing too, that’s really making a difference is the economic growth that it creates in our region as well.

Suzanne Hammond:

And that guests care about that guests care about that their money, that their spending is going into local stuff because they can see it, right? They’re interested in the local food. They’re interested that you’re, you know, the stories that we share on the social media about, oh, we’ve made, you know, beds, look, you know, so and so has made it, Mark, well, actually it wasn’t Mark, it was, yeah, a friend of ours who’s passed away who’s making a lot of the beds and stuff like that. People are interested in that story and they buy into the values and the brand that you’re sort of presenting. And so all of that is good business sense. It’s not just, you know, hippie stuff. It’s like good business.

Angele Miller:

You know? And I also think that what’s happening with that is like as people like kind of buy more into the local, you know, products, support local business, you know, in your community, the easier it gets to when it comes to regulatory and everything else, you know, because it is making a very big positive, you know, economic local impact.

Suzanne Hammond:

And you’ve also got to ask yourself, right, you know, people don’t buy, you know, don’t buy rooms, right? They buy experiences, right? They buy because they believe in the value that you set as a business, right? They’re not, you know, there’s 101 rooms people could choose from. People don’t just choose a room. They may sort of align it in terms of their style, but fundamentally they want an experience And that experience, you know, has to have some sort of, you know, value that’s associated that they want to buy into. And, you know, it’s like when you think about when you sort of like look at, you know, somewhere to stay, right? Yes, it might have like four rooms, it might have an en suite and all the rest of it. But once it’s got that, you’ve got 50 products to choose from, which one are you going to go for? You know, there’s got to be something more. So, you know, it makes a lot of good business sense to, you know, in regards to that, but it is, You know, I love it.

Todd Wynne-Parry:

So thank you so much. You reminded me of why I’ve pivoted my entire career over to this sector. So fabulous stuff. Also love that you’re from Wales, somewhere down my bloodline. I came from there. One of the things, apart from all the things you made me think about how I can do better on my own little house property here. One of the things you mentioned, though, was about the tents that you’re using, or the structures that you’re using, and you’ve only had to to landfill one of them, or?

Suzanne Hammond:

Well, we haven’t done that, we’ve decommissioned it.

Todd Wynne-Parry:

And how are you? Yeah, are you repurposing that canvas? Or what’s the, what are you doing?

Suzanne Hammond:

We are constantly maintaining the canvas, So we, so one of the things we did, for example, is we designed our pioneer camp experience. And what that means is, is that we designed the tents and we built the tents. Okay. So I know, I know, that’s what we do. We sort of like, get an idea. So, you know, and we designed it with a view of how could we maintain it? How can we swap panels out, you know, that were perhaps failing? So, you know, when we get like really bad weather and all that kind of stuff, instead of having to take the whole tent down and lose a bucket, can we move a panel out and then we can sort of deal with it, stitch it, rework it and do all that kind of stuff. So, you know, you know, my husband could talk to you about all the jobs on his whiteboard. In fact, we have a number of whiteboards around the house. where we are just constantly, we spend a lot of time maintaining things. Because you can’t have things in the outdoors and not maintain it. You know, so our winter is not spent in the Caribbean, it’s spent

Todd Wynne-Parry:

Yeah, so the reason I was thinking I was asking that is because there’s a couple of things over here in the US there’s a company that takes old sale cloths and makes purses and hit bags and all different sort of things for mainly for ladies, they can do some backpacks as well, but it’s this beautiful sailcloth that they repurpose into this merchandise. And then there’s another company called Guideboats, and they actually take British and Indian, old sort of military tent canvas, and create clothing and different bits and pieces out of that. And so in my mind, when you were talking about, you know, getting rid of these things or switching out a panel or whatever.

Suzanne Hammond:

I mean, that’s what we did, right? So one of the ideas that we had is that with one of our supplies that we were decommissioning, we got a local seamstress to make up wash bags that we sell in our camp shop. Nice. The guests love them. Yeah. And, you know, we’ve got some prototypes and we’re going to be rolling that out. And, you know, people love it, you know, just tent bags, make a lot of tent bags. And then what you’re doing there from a business point of view, is you’ve got your original asset, where you’ve done your tent and all that bit. And then you’ve got a second life for that, where you’re generating revenue through creating products. Or, you know, in some cases with things like the, like more like the soft furnishing stuff, Like, you know, we give a lot away to sort of charity organisations and stuff, you know, or dog charities with some of the pillows and things like that. So everything has a second life, it’s just not landfilled. And that’s sort of where we want to get to really, or that’s how we’ve operated anyway. You know, so, you know, or you can get super creative about stuff like that. And guests just love it, you know, guests love that kind of thing, you know, local crafted things and At the same time, then you’re creating an opportunity for someone, you know, in a seasonal area where it’s very difficult to earn a living throughout the year, you know, work through the winter, so. Very cool. Yeah.

Brian Searl:

Chris, Zach, any thoughts?

Chris Jeub:

Yeah, I had a thought. Yes, thank you, Sue. That was very good. One of the things when you were mentioning earlier on about the guest experience checking in, A much younger Chris Jube, the glamping guy, would have just jumped right out of the house and checked the people in and kind of interrupted their magical experience of checking in. And I’ve learned to just wait and let them drive their car up. We have directions that they drive right up to their tent or their container home or whatever unit we have. And they just unzip the door and they open it up and they experience it themselves without you know, the Goonie host coming out of the house and saying hi. And so it’s that what you kind of said something similar to that. And that’s the check, even down to the check-in experience is part of part of our jobs as outdoor hospitality hosts. And you sound like you’ve got the gifts too.

Suzanne Hammond:

That’s true. I mean, we position ourselves as a hosted glumping experience, right? So you are coming to our home, and we are going to host you as friends. you know, that’s how we sort of take our approach. Now, you know, that’s not always, you know, that’s, you know, that’s, that’s sort of where we’re, you know, we’re at, you know, we take people to the pitch, we explain what’s going on, give them all the information, we’ll speak to them during the day. But you’ve got to be careful that you don’t overstep that, because it is their holiday. You know, they’re not there just to be your busy mates. But you know, you, but to make people feel welcome and comfortable, I mean, that is the job of hospitality, isn’t it really? you know, and giving them the best, you know, my job, my only job is to give them the best stay that they can have, you know, the best holiday with us. So that’s, that’s our job. And that’s what I do when I’m doing my training with the camp hosts is, you know, their only job is really to make sure that they have the best holiday with us. That’s it, you know, everything else falls into that, you know, so, you know, but you’ve got to be careful that you don’t get, you know, bombard them all the time with stuff, but hopefully I don’t, so.

Chris Jeub:

Hey, do you make that gin that’s on your website? Do you actually make it? Is that homemade?

Suzanne Hammond:

Yes, I run the course.

Chris Jeub:

It’s just, damn, I want to fly out there.

Suzanne Hammond:

I don’t do the distilling of it. There’s four different ways of making gin, and one of them is an ancient way, which I showed. I show three ways, but not the distilling part. I actually need a license for that. You have to be a distillery for that.

Chris Jeub:

Those permits again, darn it.

Suzanne Hammond:

Yeah, for the foraging, you know, and, you know, sharing that knowledge and experience with people is, I love it, it’s great, you know?

Brian Searl:

Yeah, awesome. Zach, you got anything? You’ve been quiet over there.

Zach Stoltenberg:

Oh, the last thing I would share is just listening to you talk, the one thing that jumped out at me, something I say often, and that’s that we’re in the business of selling experiences. and not accommodations. And I think the one thing that I would go back to is authenticity. You know, I think people today are searching for authentic experiences. And so a lot of what you were talking about with You know, if sustainability is going to be one of your core principles, how do you put that into practice? You know, and so I think some of those things you described, it’s sort of demonstrating throughout their experience that this is more than just lip service, right? This is not just a greenwashing of something in order to, you know, use the sustainable buzzword and make some money, that it’s literally integrated into every aspect of how you’ve run the business, right down to, you know, what do we, what do we do with our waste? What do we do with our units that are worn out, you know, we’re gonna go back to our core principles, and we’re gonna still practice sustainability in that. And I think those are all the things that go, you know, work together towards contributing to that real authentic guest experience, which ultimately is what’s making you successful. So Bravo, props on that.

Suzanne Hammond:

Thank you.

Brian Searl:

I will tell you the last few months like you never want to see an economy struggle or anything like that but it is very refreshing I think to see a lot more owners at least are contacting me saying how do I enhance my experience because previously I just had to put something up and they were there and so I think that actually is is starting to move us in a direction where more people certainly there were a lot of people already did but where more people are caring about those experiences so I’m looking forward to seeing more of those creative projects come to life. Any final thoughts, guys? If not, we’ll just go around the room real quick. I know we’re over. If you need to leave, go ahead, but just go around the room. How can they contact you, get a hold of you?

Zach Stoltenberg:

You want to start, Zach? Zach at clockwork-ad.com is my email address. You can find our website at clockwork-ad.com. And all the info’s on there, my cell phone. You can give me a call, we’ll talk through whatever your project is and see how we can help you and how we can work together. Awesome.

Brian Searl:

Todd?

Todd Wynne-Parry:

Yep. I’m on the website for Horwath HTL under the Outdoor Hospitality Advisory Services tab. And I’m on TWinPerry at HorwathHTL.com.

Angele Miller:

You can reach me via LinkedIn. If you find me there, you can inbox me and also on our website at w.CreeksideRNR.com or send us an email at info at CreeksideRNR.com and it will get to me, so.

Chris Jeub:

Chris? You can get a hold of me at GlampingGuy.com. I’m on LinkedIn, YouTube, Facebook and Instagram and and if you want to check out my my actual my place, it’s monument glamping calm We are our away from the American Glamping Association’s glamping show USA So you can actually book and stay there while you take a trip up to the to the show, which I will be at Awesome.

Brian Searl:

Thanks for being here Chris and last but not least sue tell us apparently everybody wants to come stay at your property So out of the book

Suzanne Hammond:

If you want to come on the holiday with us, please do. We will be most welcome. And you can find us on topofthewoods.co.uk. We also launched this year our Green Office Retreat. So we’re doing corporate getaways as well. So you can find me on LinkedIn through Green Office Retreat. And yeah, you’re most welcome. Wales is a beautiful place.

Brian Searl:

Awesome. Well, thank you guys for being here. Another episode of MC Fireside Chats. We’ll see you next week. We have our campground owner focus show for now. We’re going to change this whole thing around and blow it up in a few months. So we’ll see where that goes. And we’ll have some different topics and things like that for more consistency for you guys. We appreciate you all being here, Sue, Angel, Todd, Zach, Chris, as always. And we’ll see you next week. Take care, guys.

Suzanne Hammond:

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00:

Bye. Thanks, guys.

Brian Searl:

Bye, everyone.

SPEAKER_00:

This episode of MC Fireside Chats with your host, Brian Searle. Have a suggestion for a show idea? Want your campground or company in a future episode? Email us at hello at moderncampground.com. Get your daily dose of news from moderncampground.com. And be sure to join us next week for more insights into the fascinating world of outdoor hospitality.