MC Fireside Chats – January 17th, 2024

This is MC Fireside Chats, a weekly show featuring conversations with thought leaders, entrepreneurs, and outdoor hospitality experts who share their insights to help your business succeed. Hosted by Brian Searl, the founder and CEO of Insider Perks. Empowered by insights from Modern Campground, the most innovative news source in the industry.

Brian Searl: Welcome, everybody to another episode of MC Fireside Chats. My name is Brian Searl with Insider Perks. [00:01:00] Excited to be here for another show with you guys and some special guests we have here, as well as our one lone recurring guest who decided to show up this week. Greg Emmert, which you can make up for everyone Greg?

Greg Emmert: Absolutely. I’ll carry it. I got it. I got it covered. 

Brian Searl: Cause I’m going to leave. I’m just, can I leave? 

Greg Emmert: Why not? Clock out. 

Brian Searl: Yeah, but super excited to be here with everybody. I’m like in this dark I’m in my office, right? But I’d rather watch, rather be outside. But it’s been super cold here in Calgary for the last two weeks.

I was telling before the show, it was negative 40 Celsius. So I could go out there and I did. I talked to Lisa, Gregg, who’s my sales business development lady, and told her if she gave me a hundred bucks, I would go outside in the negative 40 and do this. She wouldn’t do it. 

Greg Emmert: Oh man, if I’d have known, I would have covered the other half just to see the show with you outside.

Brian Searl: I’ve got the warm clothes, so I’m fine. Anyway so super excited to welcome Marcia and Kaylee to the show. We’re gonna talk to them a little bit about their unique businesses and things that they have going on. So do you want to just start and just go around the room and just have everybody briefly introduce themselves?

Want to start, Marcia, since maybe [00:02:00] Kaylee is frozen?

Marcia Galvin: It is pretty cold in Texas, I know. 

Brian Searl: Oh yeah, she could literally be frozen. That could be an emergency. 

Marcia Galvin: They don’t know how to handle it down there. Hi everyone. I am Marcia Galvin. My main hat is I am one of the family members of Normandy Farms Campground in Foxborough, Massachusetts.

We’ve got about a 400 RV site, park, and open seasonally. The also the hat I’m wearing today also is the president of NCA, which is the Northeast Campground Association. So I’m excited to be here and talk about that. 

Brian Searl: Awesome. Yeah, we’ll definitely want to talk about your conference. It’s upcoming in March.

I’m still deciding whether I can go again. So like we, we were there, like we supported NCA for many years. New Cindy, great, awesome, amazing woman. It’s really expensive to fly there from Canada. So I’ll at least probably get a booth and send my business development person. But yeah, but remind me, we’ll definitely talk about that conference too.

Cause that’s a great topic to have conferences and things like that. Greg, do you want to [00:03:00] briefly introduce yourself? 

Greg Emmert: Absolutely. Thanks for having me on again, Brian. This has been a lot of fun. Yeah, I’m Greg Embert. I’m co-founder at Camp Strategy. My partner, Jeff Hoffman and I just recently formed up this group as a consulting and professional advisory group

to all manner of outdoor hospitality folks, so campgrounds, glampgrounds anything, if you’ve got outdoor accommodations or part of the outdoor hospitality community, that’s 

who we serve. 

Brian Searl: That’s really good news because I just bought a tent at Walmart for my balcony and I’m having trouble getting people to occupy it.

Greg Emmert: I can do that. I can fix that. We can, I know a guy that’s really good in marketing. We’ll drive some traffic to your to your location. 

Brian Searl: I need a discount, though. I feel like I don’t have the revenue to support your services yet.

Greg Emmert: I think I can help you. 

Brian Searl: I’m going to buy two tents next week. 

Greg Emmert: Double your occupancy.

There you go. Double your revenue. You’re off and running. 

Brian Searl: You just, yeah, forget about anything. Just buy more, build more. 

Greg Emmert: It’s right. 

Brian Searl: It worked for Kevin Costner. It’s timeless. 

Greg Emmert: You’re right about that. Build it. They’re going to be there. 

Brian Searl: Kaylee [00:04:00] really wants to join us, but she’s just not having a good internet connection there.

So we’ll introduce. Kaylee, let’s see, I have a thing, like I have a thing on my little slack, right? That says who she is. So Kaylee Pace is the co owner of Big Tex Campground. She is going to shed some light on how her and her husband embarked on the journey of establishing Big Tex Campground and provide valuable insights and inspirations for aspiring campgrounders.

Hopefully we’ll get her back, because that sounds interesting. Oop, maybe there she is again, we’ll see. 

Kaylee Pace: I’m trying. Everything’s frozen down here. I swear, including my computer. Am I introducing myself? Is that where we are? 

Brian Searl: Yep. Absolutely. I did a terrible job of introducing you. So please, whatever.

Kaylee Pace: I wasn’t sure because my computer kept freezing up on me. Yeah, so I’m Kaylee. I’m a co founder of Big Tex Campgrounds. My husband and I set off on this journey to build this campground. Last year we documented the whole thing on TikTok and online so people could watch our journey.[00:05:00] He was a pipeliner, and then I raised my daughter in an RV while I was going to college.

So we both lived in RVs, we both lived the RV life, and we brought our passions together to build our campground. And we’re currently we’re currently expanding right now. We have 16 sites and I don’t know, it’s just been a journey. It’s been awesome. So that’s a little bit of our story. 

Brian Searl: Why don’t we start with you just in case your internet connection is starting to go out again.

Kaylee Pace: I did switch. It’s not your fault. 

Brian Searl: We were talking about literally you were frozen because it’s so cold. 

Kaylee Pace: Yeah. I love how y’all took a spin on that. That’s awesome. 

Brian Searl: We have intelligent people on the show for, to compensate for my lack of and all that kind of stuff. 

Kaylee Pace: It’s always good teamwork, right? 

Brian Searl: Yes, for sure.

So tell us a little bit about, like, how did the idea for Big Tex Campground get started way back, right? What was the original idea? 

Kaylee Pace: Going back to it my husband and I, whenever we first met, We [00:06:00] actually connected on the fact that we wanted to build an RV park, and of course, we debated on which way to do it.

He was like, we should do it this way, we should do it that way, whenever we first started meeting, because, like I was saying, he did pipelines. So he traveled throughout Texas, saw all the things that he liked and what he didn’t like. He did heavy equipment operating for years. I think he’s going on, I think his 18th year of operating.

He saw how the drainage worked, how everything, what he liked and what he didn’t like as far as how the layout was at the park. And then in 2013, before I met him, I was living in a camper with my daughter before it became this trend, right? And what I loved about campgrounds was the people and the camaraderie and how everybody came together.

It’s just it’s a beautiful thing. And I think unless you’ve actually lived in a full-time RV life, it’s hard to explain, but it’s like having neighbors that are actually neighbors. Again, I don’t, it’s hard to explain, you can live in an apartment for 10 years and never get to know the [00:07:00] people around you, but that’s impossible to do in a campground.

Brian Searl: I’m stuck behind a screen all day. I don’t know my neighbor. He’s a doctor. 

Kaylee Pace: And it’s just I did too. And then whenever I lived in an RV park, I had people over at my house all the time. Everybody’s always outside barbecuing, and I got to raise my daughter good and slow.

And then so whenever me and Josh met, he talked about that and talked about how we would do it. And then it became a reality seven years later after we’ve been dating. And then we 

Brian Searl: Are your, is big, is big text a transient or seasonal or mix or? 

Kaylee Pace: A full year round because the weather here in Texas is usually, it’s a slightly bipolar, but it’s not cold enough to completely shut down the park.

It’s tolerable. So we, 

Brian Searl: we do all year round. Is that what I guess what I meant is long term camping or overnight short term? 

Kaylee Pace: Both. We have people that are staying there a long time, and then we have people that come we have this flea market trade days thing Canton trade days, and it’s 10 minutes away from us, so we have a lot of people that come for that daily, weekly people, and then we have [00:08:00] people that live there and make it their home.

Brian Searl: I was just curious, because you guys said in the beginning you disagreed with each other on originally how it should be done a little bit, right? So I didn’t know if him being the pipeline worker, he wanted the party campground with all his buddies where he could drink or he was like no, those guys don’t behave well at all we definitely want transients in here.

Kaylee Pace: We disagreed. We disagreed on on how it should be done, and like where to put things, like where to like for him, he was more or less like concerned about the layout because he thinks with with an operator, he’s Excavation type work. Cause like he thinks with that kind of brain, like as far as that goes, I was thinking more like, how can we make it fun?

So it actually was, it was just like how it normally is. We were actually on agreement on the same things. It was just bringing it to life together. So if you do look at our campground, you’ll see that we went with the trees, not through the trees. So we Perry, we cherry picked all of our spots. Looking back, I can understand, though, why RV parks [00:09:00] do it without trees, 100%.

The way you lay the utilities and things like that is a lot more difficult if you have nature involved. But I’m more or less kind of bringing the human element to it. He brings the beautification element to it, if that makes any sense. Yeah. 

Brian Searl: Sure, yeah, it’s good that you complement each other’s skills.

Kaylee Pace: Yes. 

Brian Searl: So which one’s the TikTok dancer? 

Kaylee Pace: TikTok was surprising. That was one social media channel that we did not think was going to take off at all. Our most viral video, we hit over a million views on it. And then after that followers started coming in, but it was it was me, he was digging a ditch for the pipe.

And he made these little steps for me to get out of the ditch. And I was like he was like, here you go, princess. Cause he made me little steps. And I said, princesses don’t work in ditches, Josh. And then that just went viral and went crazy. And then after that, we got a whole bunch of followers and that’s where we started getting people involved with the journey.

So 

Brian Searl: very cool. What are [00:10:00] your future plans look like for Big Tex campgrounds before we move on? And I want to talk to Marcia a little bit and then obviously we’ll cross mingle the rest of the show. Yeah. 

Kaylee Pace: So we have, we are finishing out phase one right now, which is 34 campers total. And then we’re going to build upon, we’re a hundred percent self funded also.

Like we don’t have any, anybody really contributing as far as financially is concerned. Had a few here and there. But we are 100 percent self funded, just regular people. So we’re doing it in a way to where we can expand without having to tap into our equity and stuff like that just yet. So we’re doing the 34 spots.

We’re building a pond. We’re going to sell the material and then we’re going to build the back 34 spots. And then we’re going to have some, then we’re all, then we’re going to work on the cabins and the tents and the All that fun stuff. What we’re really wanting to do is we’re wanting to build like a 1980s style campground, eMarcia, and we’re wanting to have a swimming pond, because it’s Texas, so we do have swimming ponds here as far as that goes.

With a beach a jumping deck, rope [00:11:00] swings, just how it was among the trees. And that’s our overall goal is to get it to where it’s functioning. Like you would be camping in the eighties under the trees and swimming and playing outside and doing stuff like that. So that’s the future.

Brian Searl: Very cool. Thank you for sharing a little bit of it. And obviously we’ll bring up some discussions where we can all talk together later, right? Depending on how well the show goes and all that kind of stuff. So feel free to stick around. Love to hear your input. If there’s anything you want to add, just Don’t feel like you have to wait for your turn.

Marcia, Normandy Farms. I feel like someone’s heard that name before somewhere in the industry. I can’t remember where but

Marcia Galvin: Normandy Farms yeah my family has been operating Normandy Farms Campground in Foxborough since 1971. That’s when my dad decided to write a business plan because our, we had a farm before that. The land has been in the family since 1759. So it’s been generations over generations using the land for some purpose of making a living.

And it was farming all the way up [00:12:00] until, the mid 60s. And my dad was a farmer and he just. Decided that really the farming was going by the wayside. My grandfather was a trucker and he had been back and forth across the country many times. And, they were also avid campers.

They had an Airstream. And so he said, why don’t we open up an RV park? There’s not any in the area. Basically we were, in the Boston area, there really weren’t any. So we, he wrote a business plan for 25 campsites. And we used our backyard swimming pool as the first pool that we had for the campground and, and it started off small and now we’re now we’re 10 generations I have a granddaughter, and we have a few of us here working in the family, but we’ve got 400 campsites and about 120 staff members when we’re open fully in the season.

Brian Searl: Awesome. All right. My opening question is this. 

Marcia Galvin: Yeah. 

Brian Searl: In 1758. When your ancestor came upon the land, what was the first thing that popped into his head when he saw the land [00:13:00] before he knew he wanted to buy it? You should know this, right? 

Marcia Galvin: I should know that. I know what kind of situation he was in, though. He was just 

Brian Searl: Okay, I want to hear it.

I’m curious. 

Marcia Galvin: He was captured. 

Brian Searl: I wasn’t expecting you to have an answer at all, so 

Marcia Galvin: Okay he was captured. He was, he became, he was in the French Army and he became sick. And he was heading back to France and his boat was captured by an American pirate type ship brought back to Boston. He was enslaved in Rentham, Mass.,

which is just the same next town over from us, and he became friendly with the jail’s keep, the jailkeeper, who knew somebody in Rentham that needed some hired help. So when he got out of jail, he went to work for the person that owned the land prior to him buying the land on June 6th, 1759, 53 acres with the money that he earned from working after he got released out of the jail.

Brian Searl: So what I’m hearing is that if it was not for piracy, which you have to clearly support… 

Marcia Galvin: Exactly. 

Brian Searl: You wouldn’t be [00:14:00] here today. 

Marcia Galvin: Yes, that’s right..

We’ve got a little bit of that, that fun part of us in it. 

Brian Searl: That’s good. It’s always, it fascinates me. Like I wasn’t really looking at an answer, but you mentioned the year specifically, so that’s a long history. And yeah, it is. It’s interesting to think what the land and all the surrounding area looked like way back then, but so tell me we obviously Normandy Farms is a name that a lot of people in the industry have heard before, right?

You’ve been here a long time, but also you’ve done a lot of good things and a lot of people have looked to you guys for advice. What are some of the things that you feel like have set you apart over the years to really define Normandy Farms, 

Marcia Galvin: that’s a great question. The things that we hear the most are cleanliness and guest service. Our bathrooms are cleaner than my bathroom at home. The facilities are, maintained at a high level so that, everything looks like it’s brand new, even though, we’ve been open 53 years.

So we maintain that level of attention to detail and cleanliness. And then I think the other thing would [00:15:00] be guest service and just being Having, having a culture that is very accepting and feeling safe. Like our guests love that they come and they feel safe. The kids can ride their bikes like it’s 1980.

And they don’t have to worry. So it’s really a little, it’s a community that we’ve built, I think around values and around open space and the love of nature. And, and, giving back basically. 

Brian Searl: I don’t know where you guys grew up, but I grew up in the eighties and there was some shady stuff going on in my area in the eighties.

I don’t know, like maybe the sixties and seventies. I’m with you, but yeah. So what are some of the, so as you look through this history, right? Seventies to today. And again, how many years have you actively been involved? 

Marcia Galvin: I took some time off. Honestly, I grew up at the campground as a kid, and then went off to college.

I was a teacher for, elementary school teacher for nine years and then starting to have children and I came back. So I’ve been in my adult role for over 25 years in this role [00:16:00] here. 

Brian Searl: How do you think your perception of the campground has changed from child to adult? Do you look at it differently?

Do you see it differently? Do you, obviously a little bit right through child eyes and adult eyes. I’m just curious. 

Marcia Galvin: I think through a child’s eyes, you would see things as all fun and games, and as an adult, you’re worried about everything, the insurance, the, the liability, safety, Board of Health Regulations, there’s a lot to do.

In a campground it’s an entire community it needs its own mayor and fire department type of stuff, you really have to have the fire extinguishers and the manuals and, it’s all encompassing. It’s a lot more than, just a Just what I thought would have been a campground when I was a kid.

Brian Searl: One thing I think that interests me is just the generational aspect of Normandy Farms. And I think that we I work with hundreds of clients from a marketing perspective. Greg knows a lot of people. Kaylee’s gonna know a lot of people soon. But it’s the generational aspect that we talk to so many people and they’re [00:17:00] like I wish my son and daughter would show an interest.

Or, and so How do you think you’ve been able to not fall into that trap at Normandy Farms and keep people engaged and involved? 

Marcia Galvin: It’s not easy. Believe me. We’ve had, we’ve used succession planners attorneys and land trusts and, we’ve worked and it was started with a lot of screaming and yelling, to be quite honest.

But I think in the end. To be able to go from one generation to the other, there has to be clear communication and transparency and trust. And I think if you have, you start off with those things, then then it’s not, the next generation isn’t going to be so scared of what they’re getting themselves into.

I think it used to be a lot of, quarters in the trunk type of stuff, coming from the game room, where now it’s, What you’re getting into is a business and what you’re putting in is your entire life because the work life balance really, I live on property.

And I drive, I [00:18:00] could drive a golf cart to the office and, I wouldn’t have it any other way. I love what I do. And that’s key. You have to, for someone to come into the business, you have to really enjoy it. You can’t be forced. You can’t, be persuaded or bought, or it has to be something that you want.

Like I wanted to come back from teaching because I thought it was going to be a good. Experience with the work life balance for raising children and being able to work, and I was able to bring my kids to work, Casey knows that too. It’s really, it’s a great way to live. And I think if you, if the campground owners now can portray, Honestly, with this climate that we live outside of our bubble, if we could have our children grow up in a campground, that is going to make the complete difference in the world because it’s controlled and it’s and you can make it what you want it it’s a great way to bring up kids, so I think generationally, my, my oldest daughter is 30.

She’s going to be 31 and I have a granddaughter. Yeah. There’s talk about her [00:19:00] potentially coming back. And we all, we require, we have a code of conduct for the family. We require anybody in the family that wants to come back to go out and work for at least two years before they come back.

And then they can’t come back and we create a position. There has to be an opening with the skillset that they bring. Basically my sister and I, we’ve fell into two places that we fit. I’m more of the outside. And she’s more of the behind the scenes business part of it and and we compliment each other really well.

So it, it’s worked out well that way. It doesn’t 

always. 

Brian Searl: I think it would be interesting to spend a couple of minutes because Greg said he was going to pick up the slack from everybody else who wasn’t showing up this week to talk a little bit about that generational stuff, because it’s a thing that I think comes up quite a bit.

There’s classes at it at conferences, and we’ll talk about NCA in a minute, and your role there and all that kind of stuff. There’s a lot of people, I think, who struggle with this, and maybe it’s worth spending 10 minutes on to talk, because Greg, I’m having you lead this too, right? Obviously, you were part of a generational campground, too, and you owned your property with your parents, right?

Greg Emmert: Yeah, [00:20:00] absolutely. They they purchased it in 94. I was 20 and oddly enough, so the folks we bought it from This is, I may be tooting my own horn a little bit here, but my parents were mid 50s when they bought it. My dad’s idea was we’re going to buy this campground, this is what I’m going to do in retirement.

And the owner there being a guy who had been doing it for 17 years, was like, that’s not going to fly. And I don’t even know if I want to sell this place to you. And so I started to become part of the negotiations and as they got to know me, they said, okay, we’ll sell it to you. One condition. He’s a full time employee.

Like he’s, he gets some something, some share of the property and some, so I was a small shareholder right from the beginning. Because they recognize that this is not something you do for your retirement. This is more than a full time job. I don’t like to use the word lifestyle. It becomes one, but it’s more than a lifestyle.

It really is. It’s all income. I get lifestyle is the best word to use, but [00:21:00] it becomes a lifestyle at least the way we did it because we were owner operators. We were fully self funded like Kaylee. We didn’t have a big staff. It was, go in the closet with all the hats and put on whichever one you got to wear today and get out and get it done.

And so then, yeah, then as time went on we looked at, instead of a sale, passing it along to me, but the way we had built it, along the way, we all, nobody was taking anything out of it, we were putting everything back into the property, so the only way for my parents to get a proper retirement was to in fact sell it off, but yeah, if there are folks out there watching right now and you’re not listening really closely to Marcia pay attention if you’re somewhere along the way where you’re thinking about about selling it off or handing it off because she’s got it handled really well especially the the kind of systems you have set up in there, Marcia, to, if a family member wants in, they’ve got to go for two years and then come back and bring something legitimate to it.

It turns it from, I’m going to get this thing from my family into something that they’re going to [00:22:00] take very seriously and plan for and execute. And it’s really hard. I think the camping industry, obviously, it’s the one that I know the best, outdoor hospitality, but I talk to folks in all sorts of different businesses, and I think we’ve got the handoff thing the generational part of it.

I think it’s worse for us than others because it’s, Folks, they own their park a long time, they get really comfortable running it the way they are, and then as it gets harder and they get older and they start to realize I don’t have a family member to hand this off to, maybe, instead of trying to scale it up and make it more valuable for a sale, they start to scale back.

Because they need their workload to be easier on them. They need it to be, less taxing because they’ve been doing it for 60 years and now they’re in their 80s and they don’t know what they’re going to do. Then it pushes up against a sale and they’ve got a part that’s not worth what it should be.

So yeah, I’ve Marcia, I hope Folks are listening to you and what you said and, Flutter inbox folks, because she’s got really excellent insights on this. And [00:23:00] even if you think it’s 10 or 15 years out, it is not too soon to start planning for for your exit strategy, whether it be sale family handoff, generational succession, whatever it is start thinking about it right now, because it’s it just appears before you without you even knowing it.

Brian Searl: I’d love to just sit here and shut up while you two ask each other a couple of questions. 

Greg Emmert: Sure. And I won’t ask anything like, what was Marcia’s ancestor thinking in 1641 before? Kaylee, you can pop in too. 

Kaylee Pace: I’m just taking it all in. I’m the new kid. 

Greg Emmert: Yeah, how did you build that system, Marcia? I will take over.

I don’t know. How did you come to build that? There had to be some sort of genesis for that. Was it just over time you realized that’s what you wanted to do? Or was there a moment that made you go, geez, we really have to look at this more seriously? 

Marcia Galvin: I think it was a lot of it had to do with going to RVIC conferences.[00:24:00] 

Cause I, I’ve done that like my entire life. And, I was RVIC chair for a while in the 20, around 2015. My dad was chairman 30 years before that. So we’ve always been involved with the Association, and we had met this gentleman through the Association, his name’s Mike Henning, and he was big in the succession planning of campgrounds at that time, back, I don’t know, back 20 years ago, maybe, or so, 30, maybe 30 years ago.

And and so we were just being proactive. Looking ahead, who was going to be, working it. There were a lot more cousins involved at that time. And we were all Oh, we’re going to run it together. We’re going to be one board. And we always, we had these grandiose.

Grandiose ideas but we really needed to bring them and dial them down to see what was actually going to work. So it was a lot of working through the weeds but just really looking at hiring professionals that could help us because it wasn’t something that we could do at all on our own.[00:25:00] 

Greg Emmert: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Just because somebody’s in the family and thinks it’s going to be a fun time or a, a good thing to do doesn’t mean that they’re going to be qualified for it. And first and foremost, You owe it to your family members who are already have a vested interest and to your customers to hire people that are actually qualified, put them into position to succeed and let them do their thing.

But not to just say, Hey, Bob’s really interested. Let’s go see if, we can trade them the park for a case of beer and, just turn it over to them. It’s. That’s very important, especially when it’s been your family that long. That’s gotta feel like that is Galvin DNA. That, that place that’s, you all must be bleeding and exuding that park.

Yeah, I can’t even imagine. I felt tied to mine after 26 years. It was just us, it was mom and dad and I, this is you’ve got such history there. That’s, it’s, and it’s really wonderful that you’ve been able to stay that long. That’s awfully rare. 

Marcia Galvin: Yeah, it is. And You don’t want to be the one to like, let it go.

I’m working as hard as I can along with my sister to continue so that it can be [00:26:00] passed on to the next generation and, just keep it rolling down. 

Kaylee Pace: I have a question. I have a question about that. Have you noticed throughout the years, the different the different demographics that are coming to your campground?

I’d mentioned this in the email, thinking about it, we have the people that are older that are retiring and that used to be our largest market. But what we’re starting to see now is we’re starting to see a lot of people coming in that are not able to afford housing, so they’re traveling and they’re doing more long term stays or full term stays kids that are right out of college seeing that a lot now too and then as somebody that’s a little bit, I’m in the younger side, but I grew up with tape cassettes, so I have both sides of it or whatnot, but something that I’m noticing is the the difficulty in having to especially with you guys who y’all had to adapt To overcome for years and years.

With the next generation coming in for you guys, is that kind of something that they’re teaching you guys and y’all are teaching them at the same time? 

Marcia Galvin: That’s a great question and we do a lot of work on generations [00:27:00] with our staff because We had somebody working with us that was 82 years old this year and we have 14 year olds.

So there, there’s a lot of different, you have the boomers way of thinking, their way their business drive, their way of thinking. And then you’ve got the, Gen Z’s and the millennials, everyone has a different way of perceiving their job or their responsibilities. So we do a lot of training, a lot of training we involve pull it right into NCA, we will send our managers, to the conferences.

I think the great thing is education has become so widely available, whether you’re doing webinars or going physically to a conference, whatever you’re doing, I think the key is that you don’t stop, you’re continually learning and growing and being aware of the times and, listening.

Listening to your guests, listening to your to your staff listening to your family, and and then, making the best business [00:28:00] decisions. I think we have a lot to learn from the generations that are coming up on different ways to be, I’m finding, we’ve, one thing we had was we had about 30 different activities a day before COVID.

I’ll just say BC, where it would be like three per hour for different age groups. Now, since that, that’s not what they want. They want more time with their family, sitting by a campfire and having unstructured time. 

Kaylee Pace: I’m noticing that too, actually. I’m noticing a lot of people that are really starting to pull back towards that nostalgic era.

Whether that be through being under the trees, like what we offer at ours. And I’ve seen, you guys have that too. But just being more in nature and camping, like just that nostalgia, it’s starting to really come back. In fact, actually I saw something on Facebook earlier where I was scrolling in Pizza Hut.

Did a restoration to go back to the 90s version where they had those Pizza Hut lights and everything like that and they and Everybody was just so excited about it. I’m like, hey McDonald’s. Are you [00:29:00] listening? We want those places back and stuff Speaking of which with the simplicity of campfires and people wanting to go back What kind of amenities are you guys seeing that are low cost amenities, but that bring the most?

That I guess entice people more, something I’m noticing is Campground spending a lot of money on amenities. What are some amenities that not as many people use versus spending money less on amenities that people do use? So is there anything to point out that work for you guys?

Marcia Galvin: Yeah, that’s a great question too, because what we’ve built lately are some pavilions, open air pavilions. And we’ve been having more beer fests or food truck festivals in that space. So having, live entertainment, serving having the food trucks offering their food. Beer sales, games for the kids that type of festival type of gathering seems to be more popular now than, building a water park. [00:30:00] Just those kinds of things. We’re, we have an open space that we’re thinking about putting in a labyrinth. Something with wildflowers and, hosting meditation.

Cause we do yoga, we have a wellness center. So things that aren’t costing a lot of money, like our C Track that has been super popular. Easy to design, put in, you could really make it, huge and we’ve got grandstands and stuff, but you can do it pretty simple. But that’s an amenity that, you go down to Walmart, you buy your our seat car and the kids are happy all day long, and it doesn’t cost the parents a lot of money. Campground a lot of 

Kaylee Pace: money either. Exactly. And it’s nature trails, bike trails, that’s also something that’s coming along too. It takes up the land and the space, I was talking to Josh about that whenever we’re developing our next our back half, cause we’re separating our dailies from our monthlies.

You guys were asking earlier, what kind of campground y’all have. And with it being a full year round campground it’s something that we are we’re expanding to where we’re like, okay, we want the daily people in the front, the long term people in the back, give them that privacy, give them [00:31:00] that quietness.

And then the people in the front, they’re here to have a good time. And and something that we’re going to do in the back while we’re developing is we’re just going to do a little nature trail where the future part’s going to be until we get there. And we feel like that’s going to help out a lot for sure.

Brian Searl: This is interesting to me because I don’t think that it’s, so I’m going to say something that maybe is controversial and you guys who are the smart people who actually own the parks or did own the park in Bray’s case can tell me I’m crazy, but I don’t think this is nostalgia. I think this has always been here.

I think the private parks chose to move in a different direction where there was also an audience and still is, right? But I think those people who preferred the outdoor trail less, I don’t know, commercialized, if you want to say that experience, just went to state parks. So I think they’ve always been here and I think it’s great that in some cases we’re able to recruit that the 

private park experiences.

Kaylee Pace: Yeah, we call ourselves a fun sized state park because we’re not as big as one and we don’t offer everything but it’s in the woods and it’s in the trees and it has,[00:32:00] privacy, so I think the state park part is big too because that is what we went to in the 80s a lot of times, honestly. 

Brian Searl: I think it’s, again, it’s just like all the activities.

I think some certainly there’s a place for that, right? Yogi Bear parks and stuff like that, right? Yes. I think that There’s a lot of people who overthink that. 

I don’t think you need to do as much as you think you need to do sometimes. 

Greg Emmert: Yep, 100%. And really, the younger crowd now, with boomers aging out, still being a decent sized chunk of campers and RVers, they’re aging out, and you’ve got X and millennials making up the biggest chunk of customers right now.

Both of those groups. I’m an Xer. My wife is a very early millennial. We are looking for experiences. Boomers like stealth, right? The boomers will come in and clear out your gift shop. The millennials and the Xers, they want to know what experience can I have at your place? What [00:33:00] memory can 

Brian Searl: I want to just point out briefly that the clearing out of the gift shop is an experience.

Greg Emmert: That’s true. All right. Point well taken. Cause you’re right. It’s especially an experience for the park manager who’s watching their sales go up daily. But yeah they want experiences and that’s to your point about the natural world. That’s, that is exactly what I started to do with my park when I got the reins completely.

About 10 12 years before we sold it, we had a lot of space that wasn’t being used and we had a lot of mowing for mowing’s sake and it was just silly and I’m a conservationist and a nerd and so I built trails and I built my recreation program around experiential things, hikes different themed hikes, different times of the year different programs, even my craft activities got cheaper and cheaper because we used, stuff we found on the campground.

But you’re right, Brian. People overthink that, and they don’t build enough experience in, and that’s the open air pavilions with the food trucks. That’s an experience. What I always used to worry about, especially being a [00:34:00] KOA, is we were, what, if I go on vacation with my kids, and we go to 10 different KOAs and take this big road trip, am I going to remember one KOA from another, or is it going to be like walking past the perfume counter?

in the department store where everybody is squirting at you and all of a sudden everything smells the same. I don’t remember what any of this stuff is. So I built experiences at my park. I made it very conservation based and people remembered me for that. So it’s really just figuring out what flavor you are, like fun size state park.

That’s your flavor, right? We’re strawberry, the guy down the street’s vanilla. I don’t care about vanilla customers. He can have them. These are my strawberry customers. That’s who I’m going for, right? If people want to taste a little bit of both, they can come down here. But figure out what flavor you are, and stick with it, develop that, and make it the park that you yourself would want to stay at, would want to visit, because when those days that are supposed to be 12 or 13 hours turn into 18 hours, and you don’t know when you’re going to go to [00:35:00] bed at night, you don’t feel so whipped if you’re at this place that you love, if you’ve built it into something that you love and enjoy being at.

And it’s not just some place you go to make your money or go to work. Yeah there’s a lot to that. So it sounds like you got some good guests this week, Brian. These two ladies got it going on. This is great. 

Kaylee Pace: I love our camper. I think, what was surprising for me was we opened up, did a soft opening in September.

We had a couple of guests that had been watching the progress the entire time and something that surprised me more than anything was. How the guests felt when they came into the campground, because like you said, what’s your flavor? Our flavor was different than anything around there. Yeah there’s a KOA around us.

There’s a big conglomerate, huge RV park. They’re both really nice RV parks, but they don’t have the trees and the privacy and the shade and all that stuff that we have. And yeah, we offer a different flavor and something that I noticed, I think it was it was a guest that we had. And she said, I feel like Alice in Wonderland when I come out of my door every morning.

And I [00:36:00] was like, ah, like everything was worth it at that point. That’s 

Greg Emmert: part of Alice in Wonderland. Again, 

Kaylee Pace: how does one go frolic in the trees? And she’s I think 70 something years old. And I was like, this is fantastic. I love it. That’s where the reward comes in after those 18 hour days.

Honestly, like it’s amazing 

for sure. 

Brian Searl: And I think that’s important. Again, we just to play devil’s advocate, right? There’s an experience at every park to be had. Whether you put thought into it, whether you understand your audience and your demographic and who you’re trying to go after and all that kind of stuff, and then tailor that experience to that type of demographic is a whole nother thing.

Kaylee Pace: Yes. 

Brian Searl: But yeah, I think that’s the magic trick is the, and sometimes you run into a trap too, where like you want to build a park and you realize that maybe you didn’t do the research in advance and the experience that you want to provide doesn’t necessarily work, but then you retailer it and you still make an experience that Yeah.

So It just requires a thought. 

Kaylee Pace: In my past life is what I like to say. I mentioned going to college earlier, whenever I lived in an [00:37:00] RV for the first time, I had no idea what I was doing. All I know is I couldn’t afford the rent in Austin. It was crazy. And I was going to the university of Texas.

And so I had a four year old daughter. I was a single mom and I was like. I guess I’m going to get an RV, I was I did not know what I was doing. I literally crawled under the camper looking for the water hookup. I had never stayed in one everything ended up breaking and it was crazy, but that experience or whatnot, that it’s something that like.

I got to bring to the table and and pair that with Josh’s, and then that’s how everything came to be a lot of times, and it’s a serendipitous things and it works out, and I think that seeing it through the guest’s eyes is something that’s really important, especially if you’ve like you guys have been in the campground since y’all were younger, so y’all got to see it evolve and grow.

I came into it like 10 years ago, but I had so much in depth experience with living it that it helped me figure out. What we’re doing. And then you pair that with Josh being able to be the one behind it to make it happen. The marketing [00:38:00] side though like you were mentioning the demographics and stuff like that.

That’s something that really interested me is I was like, okay, I got to have that experience of seeing not only living at firsthand, but seeing how it’s evolving and, just all the different people that are coming into it. And I think it’s also important to note that No matter where the economy is as well, it seems like campgrounds are going to do okay.

Like whether it’s good and you have more disposable income, you got the traveling side of it, right? And then if it’s the economy is doing not so good, people are able to downsize and live in it. And that’s like where I was, ten something years ago. I couldn’t afford the rent, so I lived in a camper and it turned out to be this.

When I say I lived in a camper, my closet was in a tent. It was, I look back at the owner of that RV park and I was like, bless her. I can’t believe you let me do all of the things that I did. But yeah, it’s it’s just evolved so much over the years because especially with COVID, BC, like you said people didn’t really stay in campers very much.

And then COVID [00:39:00] happened. And now people are like, Oh, I can work from home so I can travel and market coming into it. So it’s been really interesting to watch for sure. Yeah. 

Brian Searl: All right, let’s spend a couple minutes talking about some of these upcoming conferences here since we’ve got the esteemed Marcia, president of NCA here, and your, how many other hats, you’re not even wearing a hat, but we all know they’re invisible, they must be invisible.

Marcia Galvin: They are, yeah, they’re right there. 

Brian Searl: Tell us about NCA. 

Marcia Galvin: Yeah. We’re coming up on our conference is coming up in March. It’s going to be March 21st to the 23rd. It’s the 58th annual conference. So NCA has been around for a real long time. Back in 1965 was the first conference. So this will be the 58th conference.

We’re going to be having some different speakers. We have a sergeant coming in to talk about guest experiences and how to, best deal with the current climate that we have out there and some of the challenges that campground owners face when, a guest comes in and they’re not [00:40:00] up on the camping etiquette that they should be or, familiar with following the rules and guidelines that a campground would have.

So we’ve had this Sergeant Allen come to speak to NCA a few different times and she’s wonderful. She used to actually

We’re also doing a book club, which is the first 

Brian Searl: drill sergeant, right? 

Marcia Galvin: A real sergeant, like a real yeah, police sergeant, 

Brian Searl: Right, okay. She’s not a drill sergeant in the army though, experience, right? When they’re not following the rules, 

Marcia Galvin: that would be different. Yeah. But the other one we’re doing is a book club.

And which I’m leading. This is the first time Cindy had a great idea. Cindy’s amazing. But we’re doing a book club, which is the ideal team player. So it’s talking about building a culture at your campground and how you want that to look. What do you, how do you find the people to work for you?

How do you build a culture? How does that culture go into your your guests. So [00:41:00] that’s going to be fun, so when you register for the conference you get a we have a sponsor for the book, so you get the book ahead of time, and then we’ll have a book club at the conference, so cool. 

Brian Searl: I’ve always, I always loved attending NCA, specifically for the education, right?

And I would stay for all of it, like I was a vendor half the time, right? But I would always, because Cindy was always, she always planned some of the best education of all the conferences and it annoyed me half the time because she was like, no, you spoke last year. You can’t speak for another six years, but I have good things to say.

And she’s everybody says that. It ended up probably being right. There was better, more important people to talk to, but I’ve always valued, like the education piece has always been great. Cindy shows. 

Marcia Galvin: Yeah she’s amazing. She’s got some good connections. She’s been the she’s been the executive director for 10 years, and there’s only been three executive directors for the, since 1965, and her dad who’s still with us, is the most recent one out before her and that was since 1990.

So MCA’s pretty much been governed [00:42:00] by Cindy and her family since 1990, and it’s been doing really well. We’ve got about 650 members that belong out of 11 states in the Northeast, 

Brian Searl: do you know if they sent Cindy away for two years and then she had to come back? 

Marcia Galvin: I don’t think so. 

Brian Searl: So there are other ways to make the generational thing work.

Okay. That’s Greg, 

you’re going to a lot of shows. Tell us what your plans are here. 

Greg Emmert: Yeah, we did. So we’ve been to Jeff and I’ve been to Oh, hi, formerly RVIC. And for those of you that don’t know, and Marcia, you might know Jeff Hoffman, my partner He’s been around forever, and I say that jokingly, and if he were here, he’d elbow me in the ribs, which I deserve.

But he has. He he’s now the treasurer of Ojai, and he’s the president of our Ohio Campground Owners Association, because he does still own his KOA. Up Sandusky Bayshore near Cedar Point. Yeah, we did Ojai, we did COE, the Campground Owners Expo in Branson. We’re going to be at the Ohio Campground Owners Association show as [00:43:00] well, of course.

And then a smattering of other ones. I know he’s going to be speaking at the Florida Alabama show. And I think I’m sorry? 

Brian Searl: NCA. 

Greg Emmert: NCA. We, I don’t know that one is on because it’s so close to the OCOA show that I don’t know that we will make it over there, but it is. 

Brian Searl: It’s what’s that? It’s 20 days later.

Greg Emmert: Is it 20 days later? I’m glad you’ve got the calendar fired up. 

Marcia Galvin: Cindy’s going to be calling you. 

Greg Emmert: That’s fine. I, we I’m ready for a speaker spot. I’ve been trying and nobody wants to listen to me. It’s just Brian. And that’s all. So yeah, so we’ve got a few on our plate, but not a bunch. We had originally thought we were going to go hit all these different trade shows and then We realized that people were starting to call us and yeah, we had to be a little more focused because it’s just the two of us, but yeah, we’ve got a few on the schedule hopefully get to speak at a few of them.

I think Jeff is doing the Florida, Alabama thing because he has no choice. I think somebody down there has him in a headlock and so he’s going and he’s been [00:44:00] dying to get his motorhome. If you talk to him, almost the first thing he says is my motorhome is still parked up here in the cold. I’m supposed to feel sorry for a guy that owns a motorhome and wants to take it south.

I just, I, I. I don’t know, maybe you have a different take on that, Brian, but I don’t feel sympathy for him at all.

Did I stump you? Or did I go quiet? Am I there? 

Brian Searl: I did, really. My finger froze for a second and I couldn’t move my mouse, but no, I don’t have I don’t even own a motorhome. 

Greg Emmert: Exactly. This is what I’m saying. So I don’t feel bad for him that he gets to go to Florida in February and talk and I’ll still be here with our our clients in the Northeast.

But yeah, I they’re tremendously valuable regardless what state you’re in or what association you want to go to, just belong and go. It seems recently that things have gotten a little divisive with some of the associations, depending on where you’re from and what you’re into and, I’ve been going since 94 when we bought our park.

We went as owners. We went to Ohio. We were or RVic at the time. We did the Ohio show religiously. [00:45:00] We learned so much. And as you pointed out, Brian, the educational sessions are usually really good. It depends on what you’re looking for, right? So maybe you sit in on one you don’t think is great, but the next one’s great.

And it’s the networking time. And Brian can speak to this 100 percent because He’s a big proponent of this. The best conversations that you have at those conferences that, that I have, I should say that I have ever had. They’re hallway conversations, they’re lunchtime conversations, they’re not in sessions.

I learn more from the professionals around me that are in my line of work than I do at any of the educational sessions, and that’s not to put down anyone who does one. There’s just so much information. To be gotten from your state and national and regional associations that, man, if you can belong to four or five of them and go to all four or five shows, do it.

You’re going to come away so much better for it. 

Brian Searl: Yeah. That’s what we did for, I don’t know how many years. Yeah. 

Pre [00:46:00] COVID or whatever. 

Greg Emmert: Yeah. And you did all the, you did the small shows. You took the state level shows seriously. Whereas a lot of folks just go to the nationals and get mired down in the bigger shows.

But you guys were at, I remember you were at Ohio forever. Yeah, I don’t mean to age you. 

Brian Searl: It’s like 2, 000 to fly everywhere now. 

Greg Emmert: Yeah, 

Brian Searl: anyway, maybe I’ll see if I can. Do you think Cindy would let me stay at her house during COVID? 

Marcia Galvin: Maybe not. 

Brian Searl: Alright, okay. 

So what else we got going on here? We got about eight minutes to wrap up here.

Do we have any final thoughts on anything we talked about? Generational camping, conference season, anything like that?

Yes, someone? Make up something else to talk about? 

Kaylee Pace: I haven’t gone to a show yet, but I’m excited to go to one. I think we’re going to go to Taco. 

Brian Searl: Taco’s coming up in, is it April or May? I mean, Texas is having it. 

Kaylee Pace: What was that, Taco? They have Taco. We are currently like at the point right now where we’re expanding so much that we just want to, [00:47:00] we have to get our bearings going first because we’re like so on the ground, so involved right now.

Doing what we can to get the back sites open. And then I think we’re going to go to one of those, like as soon as possible, as soon as we can. I know that they’re super helpful. When I was in marketing, I went to quite a few conferences here in Austin and for social media and things like that.

And I met my PR person there. I met our social media strategist there. Got their numbers, called them. So I think that like you were saying, Greg, it’s a lot of the hallway conversations that you have that can help you out. I’m at the point right now where we’re not really ready to delegate anything.

We’re still growing it, I feel like it’s going to be super beneficial once we get to that level. So I’m excited to go to my first show. I don’t know when that’s going to be probably within a year for sure. 

Brian Searl: All right, we’ll consider taco. It’s right there. I can’t remember if it’s in April or May, but let’s like, I don’t know, we’ll have conversations about this on future shows as we get closer to them, but what’s what’s coming up here?

So we have the Carolina show which is happening end [00:48:00] of Jan, is it January this year? I feel like it’s really early this year. 

Greg Emmert: I think you’re yep. 

Brian Searl: I think it’s the end of January. 

Greg Emmert: The Carolinas, yeah. 

Brian Searl: South Carolina and also Georgia’s, I think, lumped into there, right? They have a smaller association, but yeah, so that’ll be there.

And then we have, and then there’s a gap, right? And then Ohio’s the next one, I think. 

Greg Emmert: Yeah, Ohio’s the beginning of March. When is Marvac is also having a show. I can’t remember now if that’s mid March. 

Brian Searl: I have to get back to him about that. I don’t know if I can, when that is. 

Greg Emmert: And I know that’s really, that might be really close to Marcia’s show.

Marcia Galvin: March 21st. 

Brian Searl: Yeah. And since we don’t have the Michigan personnel on the show and they’re probably not watching the show, obviously Marcia Witt. 

Greg Emmert: That’s right. 

Marcia Galvin: Between there is the Ojai National School, which is the last week of February. So that’s, I’ll be presenting a class there. 

Brian Searl: Very cool. All right.

So the Oakland National School and then we have Subwayco in March. We have [00:49:00] NCA in March. There’s one more in March, isn’t there? I feel like there’s another one in March. It’s we talked about Michigan. I thought there was another one, but then Tacos later in April or May. I’m sorry. I can’t remember Tacos off the top of my head.

Florida’s in May, right? 

Greg Emmert: Yep. 

Brian Searl: Yeah. Yeah. I have to speak at that one too. And I think that’s it for the, I’m probably missing somebody. I’m sorry if I’m missing you, but. So we’ll talk about these. 

Greg Emmert: I think you got it. There’s Wisconsin’s in there somewhere too. Waco. And yeah, you did. Okay. Sorry. 

Brian Searl: Yeah. We’re registered for that one already.

But yeah it’s super exciting. The, one of those times of years where we’re getting ready to, for everybody to the vendors at least to travel like crazy to all different shows. Yeah, excited to see what the springs and it’ll be my first time. And since COVID going to a couple of these, so just cause I can’t get out of here, but.

I really I have no time anymore. It’s crazy, but I miss it. I do miss going to all the shows, so All right. Any final thoughts here? We got four minutes to wrap up. 

Marcia Galvin: I’m super grateful that you guys invited me on and I got to [00:50:00] meet you, Casey, and got to see Greg and, I love this industry.

I think that the more we can share and collaborate and, We compete for campers when we’re side by side, but as an industry we’re non competitive, we’re more we’re more, we have more in common than we have not in common. I really just like the camaraderie and, being able to talk to different people and share whatever we can.

Kaylee Pace: Yeah, I agree. And thank you for having me on the show too. I appreciate it. I really enjoyed meeting you, Marcia and Greg. That’s, it’s a, it’s definitely, like you said it’s. It’s a group of people in a bubble that understand each other more than pretty much anyone else. And it’s a, the drive for outdoor hospitality, like making guests happy. And I feel like that’s such a giving. They’re a way of giving to the community. So it’s nice to meet like minded people. So thank y’all for having me on the show too. 

Greg Emmert: Yeah, absolutely. It was nice meeting you both as well, and I’m sure this won’t be the last time we’re talking, but yeah that that feeling of community is excellent because we so you curate it inside your campground, right?

But [00:51:00] then you feel it amongst the other owners. It’s whether it be at a conference or just running into them, we learned really early on that we weren’t competing with the folks down the street, that they were actually our best friends. We had 12 parks in a 10 mile radius of us and we ended up.

Buying equipment together and sharing tools and ideas and looking out for each other’s parks, and it’s very unlike any other industry. So it’s it’s outdoor hospitality. It’s not just for the guests. It is for the owners and operators as well, and it really is. It’s, it is a wonderful industry to be a part of.

A really interesting discussion today. I was glad to be a part of it, especially hearing the both from the seasoned veteran in Marcia and the the relative newcomer in Kaylee. This was, yeah, I really enjoyed the discussion today. Thanks for having me on Brian. 

Brian Searl: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you guys all for being here.

I think we’re no reason to fill two more minutes with just me blathering on talking about stuff that nobody cares about. So we need to wrap up and set you guys free for an hour or a minute and a half early. So thank you guys for being here. I appreciate it. Next week we’ll be back with another show focused on the, it’s our fourth week.

So the RV [00:52:00] industry and really appreciate you guys being here and we’ll talk to you soon. Hopefully see you. 

Kaylee Pace: Thanks. 

Greg Emmert: Bye bye. 

Marcia Galvin: Bye bye. 

Thanks for joining us for this episode of MC Fireside Chats with your host, Brian Searl. Have a suggestion for a show idea? Want your campground or company in a future episode? Email us at hello at moderncampground. com. Get your daily dose of news from moderncampground. com and be sure to join us next week for more insights into the fascinating world of outdoor hospitality.

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