MC Fireside Chats – January 11, 2023

Brian: Welcome everybody to another episode of MC Fireside Chats. My name’s Brian Searl with Insider product sitting outside because we are in outdoor hospitality. Happy to be joined by [00:01:00] Sarah, who is gonna tell us about our company who is also outside in glamping accommodations. The rest of these gentlemen desperately wish according to our pre-show conversation, that they were outside as well, including Kara, who definitely should be outside.

You got a hot tub and everything else in your backyard is what I hear. Never been there, but outdoors guys. But super excited to the show. We got Cara Csizmadia from the Canadian, Camping &, RV Council joining as my co-host. As always, this is our glamping focused episode, second week of every month, first one of 2023, and we are excited to welcome back, towel rackh from Clockwork, Connor Schwab from Sage Outdoor Advisory. David Smith from Outside Capital. And then we’ve got two special guests here, Jordan and Sarah, who I’m gonna let introduce themselves and tell you a little bit about their unique companies. So who would like to go? 

Sara: I’ll go first if that’s okay.

I mean, I’m, I’m based in the UK so, I’m a long way away from you guys, but I formed Camping Innovations back in 2020. I’ve been in the industry, in the glamping sector for a number of years but purely concentrating on the cell of Safari [00:02:00] tents into the uk. And during, I mean, the UK is quite saturated now with glamping.

I think it, I think the US is, is sort of behind us in terms of, you know, the growth that you are seeing over there. And we’re a small island really in terms of, you know, in terms of the opportunity. But I did recognize. as, as you know, as time went on that the glamping industry was changing quite dramatically over here.

And we needed to try to start to innovate and bring new products to the market. So that’s when I set up glamping innovations and I started to look for designers to work with, for manufacturers to work with, to try and create some very innovative accommodation. So we now have a big range of products.

The panorama, which is the unit that you see me sitting in here has been very, very popular here in the uk. It’s a very beautiful structure because it’s, it’s made of the, you can see the wood frame is [00:03:00] made out of birch, and it’s got panorama windows that go all around it. It’s a big space. It’s 40 square meters or round meters if you like, but a big space and space that you can use and adapt and use and in each, each unit can be individually designed in terms of the internal space.

Brian: I wanna let, I’m sorry. I just wanna let Jordan introduce himself real quick, and then I definitely wanna talk to you about some of the different types of accommodations you. You know, brought forth to the market in some of the ways that you think maybe the United States would follow the UK innovation and changing adaptations.

But go ahead, Jordan, please tell us who you are and introduce yourself. 

Jordan: Hey, I’m Jordan Bem. I’m the CEO and founder of Moliving. We’re the first luxury nomadic hospitality solution, so we actually position ourselves between the glamping and the ultra luxury space. What we do is, what we’ve created are the first luxury mobile hotel rooms, and the idea is to use mobility to [00:04:00] counteract seasonality.

Hence, what we’ve created are actually hotels with flexible inventory, meaning that in the summertime, for example, by the beach, there’s huge. Let’s say 400 rooms, but in the wintertime there’s only demand for 20 keys. So instead of actually sitting on assets that are not generating any revenue, what we basically do is remove the excess inventory and move them to another one of our hotels.

So sort of fluctuating inventories between several different locations in order to reduce costs and hence increased profitability. 

Brian: Okay. So I definitely wanna explore that with you too especially because we talked about theming this kind of episode before the show and a little bit about winter glamping, and that plays into, I think, very nicely the seasonality you were talking about, about the Caribbean and you know, maybe moving things north and south as they change with the season.

So, Sarah, do you wanna talk briefly about, let’s talk about the innovations real quick with, with UK and, and obviously [00:05:00] you can talk about those and then maybe kind of cross over into the seasonality aspect as well. Are there glamping resorts that try to stay open longer over there? . 

Sara: Yeah. I mean, you know, the markets, it’s saturation.

People are trying to stay open all year round now to, to sort of, yeah. To increase revenue. And so it is testing for products, it’s testing for canvas products with the, that insulation type of lining so that you could use the panorama all year round. At the moment you can’t because it’s a single skin product.

Okay. We have another product called the Arcade, which is a a two layer product and it’s got an insulated tent under a roof, so that is more insulated and more able to cope with the colder weather. And we’ve also now started to develop some sort of solid products. We’ve just designed and completed now the [00:06:00] first prototype of what we call the barrel.

And the barrel. I designed initially for wineries and, and a vineyard. So it’s like a huge great big barrel that’s got a bedroom, bathroom, sleeping area inside, but it looks like a barrel, so it will sit very nicely. 

Brian: Cara says she wants this one. 

Sara: Yes. It’s the Anthropodod. The Anthropodod is a beautiful product.

All it’s made out of complete, sustain, sustainable materials. Even the insulation is recycled plastic bottles. It’s been very, very properly because you can put it up on stilts as well as you can see there. 

Cara: It’s so cool. 

Sara: The, problem that we’ve got with the Anthropod in terms of the global market is shipping it it’s very expensive to ship it, whereas the barrel, we can, we can actually produce it in four pieces, so we can ship it and then it can be put together on location.

Jordan: What, what’s the size, Sarah, of the Anthropod? 

Sara: They come in [00:07:00] different, various, different sizes. So they go from a very small, what we call the Tilly, up to around about seven and a half, eight meters. And we’ve just produced a wider Anthropod as well because they’re, they’re quite narrow. So to, to create a bit more width in the Anthropod to give just a bit more space for anybody that might be claustrophobic or, but yeah.

David: So what do they require? A do they require a, a, any sort of foundation system, Sarah, or can you sort of set those legs up on a you know, on a, just straight onto the onto grave. 

Sara: They can go straight onto the ground. We, we use these big sort of screws that, that go through the legs to secure them. So, and there, there, there’s the barrel.

So you can see it’s uh, a completely fitted out unit. So it’s literally a plug and play unit. Lots and lots of light. So we’ve created big windows at the front and big windows at the back, and then these dome windows [00:08:00] again in the roof and in the bathroom. So bringing in a lot of light. We are, we produced the first one, which is six and a half meters, so that we’ll have a, a sort of sofa bed in for the accom, you know, for the sleeping accommodation.

But we are now going to produce an eight and a half meter unit, which will have a fixed bed for housekeeping reasons. But this, this product could be used all year round. And again, I think wineries and vineyards will hopefully be very interested in this because it fits, fits in with that environment and just looks perfect in a, in a vineyard.

Cara: 

I noticed quotations for air conditioning and things. What about 

heating? 

Sara: Heating? We are using air conditioning units, which, which supply heating as well. 

Brian: I think this kind of plays well in, well into the topic of innovation though. Real quick, just to touch on this briefly, and we’ve asked other guests this in the past, and I know many of us here on this call, were at the Glamping show, usa which was after the London one, which I’m gonna try to [00:09:00] get to this year.

I’m gonna try to go to the London one. Yeah. But we, we had heard from many people over in the UK and overseas especially in the uk, but about how they’ve innovated some of those structures and some of the lodging and accommodations that they’ve had. You know, I started off maybe the same way with the, the.

I don’t wanna say generic, but the tents and the uts and the kinds of things that we see ubiquitous everywhere and it has evolved. So how do you, I assume that’s kind of why your company exists, right? I mean, that’s in the name Glamping

innovations. 

Sara: 

Absolutely. I work with a designer called 

Doff and we work together to come up with, we look for opportunities in the market.

So, for instance, the barrel, we’ve got a lot of vineyards now developing in the UK because the climate has changed over here. And so we have these vineyards that have big restaurants and they, they, you know, they want to, you know, they want to encourage wine tours and they want people to come and drink as much wine as they, they can provide them but they don’t have any accommodations.

[00:10:00] So, so that’s why we created the the barrel. So that will be launched globally. We’ve actually sold one to the US already. . So there will be a distributor, a company called Modern Glamping. It will be our distributor in the us. 

I 

Brian: mean, it sense for me to put ’em at wineries because we now you can go to a winery and have a tasting and if you have a place to sleep, you can have 10 tastings.

Sara: Of course. Yeah. Make, that’s for everybody. 

Yeah. And, and if you’ve got a nice restaurant there, you want to encourage people to stay and have a nice meal in the evening and then Yeah. Be able to stay overnight and it’s, it becomes a better experience for people. 

Brian: Yeah. You can meet people who like the same wine as you and Yeah.

It’s, it’s an all around good kind of experiential experience, for lack of better word, but 

Zach: yeah. So I’ve got, I’ve got a tough question. And you, you kind of hit on it that you’re, you’re starting to move more into the US market, obviously. Different countries, different building codes, different standards for construction, different ratings.

Yeah. And [00:11:00] certifications. On, can you, can you talk a little bit from the design and development perspective, sort of what standards or codes are your structures designed to, and you know, for someone who’s interested in purchasing one of these? What does the hurdle look like for them to get their local jurisdiction to approve these types of structures?

Sara: That’s, that is a big question. I mean, we, we, every unit is made to manufacture, so it’s, it’s actually made to order. So then we would take into account all, all of the different country codes and you know, the, the guidelines that we would, we would need to follow. So we would produce it for that specific country.

Zach: So each one of these is purpose build for the site that they’re going to not, not necessarily a one size fits all. Here’s the product. Take it. Leave. 

Sara: Yes. 

Yeah. Okay. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the concept is the concept, but then we can adapt it because we’re, we’re making each unit to order. So, we can adapt [00:12:00] it to, to make sure that it complies.

Cara: What are you looking 

at for timeline as an operator to, from the day you order until your. , 

Sara: it’s around about 16 weeks at the moment. But you know, and we have the capacity to build on that, so we can actually, we’ve got a factory in Pennsylvania and we can build on that. So they, you know, they have the resources to, to, yeah, as we grow, they will grow with us.

Brian: That’s awesome. Okay, Jordan, let’s switch to you for a second. Jordan, tell us, I mean, you’ve talked a little bit about it in your and Joe, but talk a little bit more about your company and how kind of, you think this unique value proposition of adjusting hotel rooms in, in real time, for lack of your word right, is, is maybe a way forward for a lot of people that generate some different revenue they otherwise 

could not.

Jordan: Well, I, I, I think before we hop into that, we sort of have to back into how we actually operate. Okay. The way that we operate is as joint venture partners. [00:13:00] So as Sarah, for example, sells her units outright, or her suites or rooms outright to, for example, a vineyard the vineyard will be responsible for paying a hundred percent of the cost, the delivery and so on, and the installation, and then the operations of each room.

The way that we operate is we operate as joint venture partners with landowners. So for example, such vineyard comes to us and says, Hey, Mo living, we wanna open a hotel here, but we’re not hoteliers. How do we actually do it? So we come in with basically the hotel rooms, the manage. The marketing, the reservation system, basically everything that traditional four seasons among six senses of the world will bring to the table.

But the real difference between a traditional hospitality, you know, manageable company and us, is that we actually bring the hotel rooms at our cost to the table. [00:14:00] So in exchange for that, what we get is a profit split in addition to our management piece. 

Brian: Okay. 

Jordan: So that, so that’s the big point, you know, to dis to sort of put out of how do we operate and why we operate basically differently.

Today, the. , what, what do you want me to focus on just so I know? 

Brian: I think what part of what makes you unique and I, and definitely that needed to be explained, so I appreciate that. That’s just kind of my lack of knowledge of your company and I’m glad I’m learning more. I, I think one of the unique things that struck me with what you were saying earlier in your introduction is the ability to kind of move these around, swap them out, not have that.

Like, like if you look at a traditional Campground or a glamping resorts in, in almost every area of the United States that I’ve come across yes, some of these units are on wheels, but they still sit at the Campground basically unused or winterized all winter long. And you’re proposing kind of a solution to that, right?

Yeah. So we actually, in [00:15:00] comparison to building 

Jordan: these to be specific to each site, we actually have created a one size fits all solution. So every single one of our suites is actually built to the highest standards possible. You know, towel rackh and I were discussing in the pre-show the, our values for winter and his region, you know, cata, I mean areas five and six.

So we built an R plus 26 basically. Standard. And at the same time, we are also hurricane group, for example. So what we do is the inside all of our units or all of our suites are actually a one size fits all, but the interior package and your ff n e and O S N E packages actually vary from site to site.

So for example, the room that you see that’s behind me is located upstate. The dark wood compliments the outside and whatnot. But this wouldn’t necessarily work in a beach environment. So what we do is we actually have a really easy system to remove the, the [00:16:00] interior the interior wood and replace it to something that’s more beachy as well as our F F N E package, which is, you know, your couches, your chair, and so on.

So we can readapt a room to be able to fit anywhere in the United States in a matter of, you know, an hour or 

two hours. . And then how long do these us do these usually take to move? I mean, obviously transit time, right? But to get ready to move and then to set up at the new destination an hour. 

Okay. It’s it’s unbelievable how quick it actually takes.

All you need to do is back a truck in, connect it and move it from one location to another. So for example, the siding that we have, because obviously you can’t see the wheels, we press on a button and the siding will come up and all of a sudden the wheels get exposed. As well as the front porch or the front deck is a deck that folds up and actually acts as a barrier to protect the suite from the elements on the road.

So all this is built so that we have minimal downtime [00:17:00] because our belief is that we created the best case use of real estate by creating the first hotel group with the highest ADRs and highest occupancy possible because we operate in seasonal locations that have very high average daily rates and very high occupancy for short times, but we’re always located in some of these 

markets.

Brian: Does anyone know, and maybe this is a counter question or even is that question for design, but is, is this showing in the analytics that there’s an interest in this for people, not just from an owner perspective, but from a, you know, maybe a consumer perspective? 

Connor: I would say for sure. Like when we look at the numbers of, of seasonal sites and seasonal businesses, they have, you know, they’re making 68 to 80% of their income in their peak season, which may only be three or four months.

So, you know, being able to alternate between maybe a. A popular summer destination and a, a popular winter destination, you could probably nearly, nearly double your income.[00:18:00] Which for most people it’s the logistical operations of it, which is so difficult. So, I mean, I think they’re coming up with a really cool solution.

And yeah, I mean, the asset capitalization on your units is probably, you know, 50 to 70% higer. 

Zach: Yeah, I was, I would echo that. I’d say you know, when we look at, from a design perspective and site location perspective you know, the, the longer the season that we can get, the better. But e every location is gonna have a peak season and, and, you know, some off season or more downtime.

And like Connor said, you know, 60, 80% of your revenues may be in your peak season. And I, I think it’s an innovative approach because, you know, typically when we look at these, we, we have to make the finances work for 12 months of the year for operations, for expenses, for taxes, for staffing And, and so we’ve, you know, we know we’re gonna get all of our revenue during a shorter period of time, but we have expenses year [00:19:00] round.

So I think Jordan’s approach to that of saying, Hey, you know, we’re gonna make the biggest grab we can here during peak season. And then instead of carrying that cost, you know, for the off season months we can pick up and relocate these units to an area that that has a, you know, an alternate peak season.

And I think, you know, in some of the areas of the country that we’re working right now you know, Arizona would be a prime market for this because in the summertime, your, your high desert, your, your region’s all around, you know, the Grand Canyon page some of the national parks up there, the national Forest lands up there, it’s nice and cool in the summer, and it’s a major vacation destination.

But in November, December, January, February that’s an off season. And you know, a lot of the little towns up there, I mean, the restaurants close down, people leave, you know, there, there’s, it’s very much a, a seasonal environment. So, but then you look at other areas of more, you know, Southern Arizona around Tucson which their peak season is [00:20:00] December, January, February, with all their snowbirds coming in.

And it’s, it’s a lot warmer down there. And you know, so I, I think there are regions in the United States, even within one state where having the ability to have two locations, one still target market that you’re drawing your customer base from. Having those units located in, in the region that’s really specific to that time of year is a really interesting concept.

Jordan: 

I think it’s also important to note that our hotels, you know, will be open 365 days a year. The only thing that varies is the number of rooms. So you really have to think about it this way, Brian is a lot of the hotels are actually shut down in off season. They’re shut down because they have to do maintenance.

So their staff is utilized towards maintenance or winterizing or or whatnot. So you have before to pick and choose. Either you want your asset to live, you know, for the next season, or you want to be able to operate it for the last time during [00:21:00] such season. So, you know, if you look at, for example, the Hamptons near New York, which is a prime, you know, prime, let’s say prime target market.

You look at hotels like on Shelter Island at On Zones, it’s only open two and a half months out of the year because they make their money grab at that point, if you’d like. And the rest of the year, their maintenance cost is just too expensive. So they can’t just balance maintenance plus operation. So by removing the maintenance aspect of it, we give the opportunity to have operations at all times just with a smaller number of rooms.

So to go piggy to piggyback on stairs example, a winery during high season, you may have demand for 20 rooms a night, but during low season be only demand for four rooms a night to actually stay. But yet the winery’s still functioning and there’s still tastings that are occurring. [00:22:00] So why not be able to actually monetize your underutilized assets?

Connor: I have a clarifying question for you. Like if we had a project like towel rackh and I are working on a project in Arizona, would we be able to rent 20 units for six months of the year? And like, how does the business model work for Moliving ? Is it, do you rent it per month? Do you have to purchase it? Can anyone purchase, like, rent them for a certain amount of time or how does that work?

Jordan: No, so, so the way we function is we function as joint venture partners where we actually sign. So general management agreements, 20 year agreement. We can all agree to that. We operate as a 10 year management agreement and we come on your land, you’re responsible for the permanent infrastructure, meaning, you know, your spa, your FMD outlay, your pool, your reception, whatever it is.

And we come in. X number of rooms, you know, generally above 50 keys. And in exchange for that, you know, we all, we do the [00:23:00] full management and whatnot, and in exchange for that, we take a profit split. Okay. So it’s more, it’s more, it’s more of a the, the issue of doing what you’re, what you’re saying, you know, for renting it out for just six, six months or whatnot, that’s white, what we call white labeling the product.

We don’t control the quality of the product and we position ourselves truly in the ultra luxury market to be a comparable product to, you know, your traditional four Seasons, for example. 

Connor: Got it. And it’s an awesome concept. How many of these units have you guys deployed that have like accepted guests?

Jordan: So we actually in March of this year, started a feed round with one site that we had signed up. Now we have seven sites that are signed up all opening in the next 36 months. 

Brian: Now Jordan, I’m just gonna say that You mean last year, right? You’re not talking about, you’re not from the future

Jordan: I’m talking about. Yeah, no, no, I mean, I mean last year . Alright, so we so we are going to be, so we have a couple [00:24:00] units that are now roaming the US as test units. We actually have one in update in York currently. I don’t know if anyone’s sort of local but but we have a pipeline of over 500 keys that are being deployed in the next 36 months.

Brian: Awesome. Very cool. I think, I think I wanna take this opportunity to switch to winter glamping though, because I think that’s a good kind of, you know, segue between this, this modularity that’s, you know, moving things around and, and being prepared for seasonality. And so before I do that, I wanna take the opportunity cuz I always forget to thank Horizon Outdoor Hospitality who is the sponsor of this episode the glamping episode every month.

So we’re very thankful for them there. RV Park, Campground Management Company, I’m sure they’re, if not already dipping their toes into the glamping resort space as this thing is only gonna. Continue to move and we’re in its infancy, as we’ve discussed here in the United States especially. So excited to see where that’s going, but thankful for Horizon Outdoor Hospitality for their support of our show.

So let’s go ahead and switch to Winter Glamping for a second. And I wanna start with, let’s just start with a hypothetical. Let’s say that someone is watching this show and they are very concerned that I’m outside and [00:25:00] might freeze this. So they want to build a brand new glamping resort so that I can be warm during future episodes of MC Fireside Chats.

But let’s start from the beginning and run through an entire exercise of this, right? So in the beginning, we need financing for this. So David, does this work from a financing standpoint, if somebody wants to have a modular kind of business like this? 

David: Well, yeah. I think with all as with all tough questions, the answer is probably that it depends.

And I think that, you know, like Jor Jordan already touched on a lot of the same issues that I think are relevant to that answer. Brian. It, it just depends. Does the project pencil. And there are plenty of examples of, you know, stepping aside from glamping. There are plenty of examples of hotels, traditional hotels that exist in markets that are ultra seasonal and still perform great.

I mean, think about the resort. There are summer resort destinations all throughout the Northeast Cape Cod, the Hampton Shelter Island like Jordan mentioned. You know, if, if, if your summer season is strong [00:26:00] enough yeah, there, there are projects that will work even in the absence of any demand over the winter.

So that’s, that’s kind of one extreme end of the spectrum. So where I think your question was going to more is, you know, can you actually, can you actually kind of pencil something where you’re, you know, you’re, you’re, you’re kind of relying on operations through the winter and I think that’s, that’s where you start to push the threshold a little bit.

You know, I, I think you, you kind of have to start from this question of, okay, is, is there, is there a demand in this market in the winter to begin with? Okay. You know, I think generally speaking, if you, you know, if, if, if operators in the hotel industry feel like they haven’t been able to kind of like, push that threshold and actually pull people into a market in, during the winter, I think in our space in glamping, we’ve gotta assume that those challenges are gonna be, you know, equal if not greater, right?

Because we, we just have, we just kind of have physical challenges in our space that are not unsolvable, but certainly sort of raise the, [00:27:00] the level of difficulty to offer people a comfortable experience in an off season environment like that. But, but having said that, you know, there are examples of operators who have, you know, run the analysis and decided that in markets like Cape, like Cape Cod or Upstate New York You know, that it actually makes sense to run through the winter.

And you know, you look at, look at getaway. I mean, so many of their properties are in hyper seasonal markets in the Midwest and the Northeast. And they, they perform really well through the winter because they offer a product that is, you know, comfortable at least to some during, during the cold weather.

So I think, I think it’s possible. 

But from a financial perspective, the, you know, every, every story is different. And the real question from the financier’s point of view is, can you actually show me evidence that there’s demand in this market through the winter? I think where people start to struggle a little bit from an analytical standpoint is if, you know, you, an [00:28:00] operator or developer are trying to tell your, you know, your financier, that you’re actually gonna induce demand in a market where there’s currently no demand during, during the winter months.

And I think that’s where, you know, that’s where some of these alternative approaches, like, you know, what Gordon’s come up with living are really innovative and, and interesting. You know, cuz, cuz you know, that approach sort of allows you to just kind of sidestep that whole, that whole question. Right.

But but, but I don’t, I don’t think that’s the only approach. And I think that I think we, I think we’ve seen enough evidence that, you know, there, there is a subset of the traveling public that are interested in being in, you know, traditional traditionally, you know, summer dominant destinations during the wintertime, so long as you give them the ingredients to enjoy themselves while they’re there.

But it’s just, I, it’s just a, you know, it’s just a level up in difficulty from design marketing, a lot of the programming that’s relevant for glamping sort of goes out of the, out of the equation in winter. You know, like I, I personally, I’m not sure I, [00:29:00] I’ll be finding myself playing You know, like cornhole or, or whatever when it’s when it’s 10 degrees outside in the snow.

So I, you know, that’s, that’s another issue that you’ve gotta kind of think about as an operative. Yeah. So, yeah, sh short answer is, I think it depends, but I think there’s evidence that it can work. 

Brian: Yeah. And I knew that would be your answer. It depends, but I guess it was talking more about from a generic standpoint.

And so I think what the points you brought up are excellent though, you know, it’s about demand and proving that that demand is already there. And I think that’s a flip, honestly, in some cases from Campground and RV park owners who don’t have, if you’re a new park, even if you’re trying to winterize or put in cabins or glamping units as part of your RV park over the winter, that’s a more harder sell than just a glamping resort who can compare it to a hotel in the area of which there are usually many more.

And give that kind of demand indicator to financiers like you’re talking about. But then also what is there in the area that they’re gonna do during the winter. You know, we do, mark, we just picked up a, a resort and pa, we’re doing marketing for near York. Peak and peak ski resort, you know, so those kinds of things.

If there is [00:30:00] demand in the area for hotels related to a winter activity, it’s even easier than on top of that. 

Jordan: Brian, it comes to what your subset basically is and what the subset has, how the subset has basically been performing. And most importantly, when you take, you know, any loan, whether it’s hospitality or just traditional real estate, it has to do with what your collateral is.

And what if the bank actually repossess is your asset, is what’s the ability for them to actually resell the asset and recruit costs. So that’s one of the major issues that in the glamping space, let’s say there’s a traditionally hard time to finance some product because there’s just no history of what the product is actually worth.

Mm-hmm. . The second thing is, generally when you take a real estate loan, your real estate actually stays on site. So the product that there, for example, manufacturers or [00:31:00] the rooms that we actually build are actually built on wheels. So they’re actually mobile and mobile by nature does not, generally speaking with with traditional real estate debtors.

That being said, there are products that we’ve been utilizing that are very similar to, to real estate loans that work just fine. So we’ve been getting loans, for example, on our hospitality developments, you know, in the, in roughly at the same price as a traditional real estate loan or real estate, mor mortgage.

Okay. So, and thank you for that. I appreciate that. Let’s talk, let’s dive into, let’s assume now we’ve got demand in our market. We’ve got, you know, we were able to prove that to the financiers. We’re able to secure some secure some financing. So gentlemen, you’re all experts here much more than I am.

I’m just the marketing tech guy. What comes next? What is my next step in planning a, a winter ramping destination?

Zach: I’ll [00:32:00] take that one. . So as we kind of had in our pre-discussion, you know, there’s, there’s codes, there’s restrictions, there’s requirements that apply to wherever you’re at. And especially if you’re in one of those northern regions the, the requirements for that are gonna be more stringent.

You know, as I, I mentioned to you all, we have two or three projects now that are in some of these northern regions in the United States. You know, I pulled licenses in, in Minnesota, Washington State, New Hampshire recently. You know, most of last year I’d say the Southeastern United States are sort of our, our core hot area, and it is still very hot in great Smokey Mountains region, Florida, Georgia.

All of those are, are hot areas. And I think a lot of those northern states are somewhat being ignored. And, and now we’re starting to see some of that periphery development, you know, as glamping has kind of started to spread across the United States and there’s some very beautiful regions and, and just really top vacation destinations that are right along the Canadian border, you know, nearly, and, and it’s [00:33:00] different.

The, the development process and, and building and codes in those areas are different. Mm-hmm. . So I think, you know, step one is of course I always like to, you know, to pitch this, working with a professional. And, and two, really identifying, you know, what, what are the things that are unique to. Building in a, a more northern climate.

Some of those things, you know, have been mentioned as Jordan mentioned earlier, are value requirements on those units. We, we always think of insulation when it comes to cold. But I would argue that it’s just as important in a hotter tropical climate as well. Keeping those spaces cool in the, in the summertime.

But if you’re in a temperate climate you know that, that, that need is, is less. Second, I would say, you know, look at what are your energy sources. Trying to do a site that’s all electric and sustainable and renewable you know, that’s great. That may not be a viable option. Does your property have the availability of a natural gas connection or are you looking at propane?

Are we looking at, you know, some alternate, do we [00:34:00] need to put a wood stove in these units that comes with additional code requirements for, for fresh air and fire safety? And so I think, you know, that step one is really figuring out that big picture. You know, what, what do I need to look at?

Because some, some of my favorite, you know, very beautiful glamping units are, are just not gonna work in, in every region, or they’re really only gonna work two to three months out of the year. And so I think, you know, kind of being open to alternatives you know, some of these unique structures like what Jordan and, and Sarah have shared with us today.

You know, it may be just finding that right manufacturer, finding that right alternative for the, the type of unit that you want to do. The last thing I I would add is if you’re in one of those regions, you know, you have that property or, or maybe you’re already open and you, you have a glamping resort.

A lot of times, you know, people have, have said, okay, we know we’re gonna run five or six months out of the year. And I would say that there are some tricks [00:35:00] and, and some things that you can do from an operations perspective to kind of stretch your season a little bit. You know, a couple of the things, different operators that have worked with are more complicated.

It may be, you know, actually adding insulation layers to your tent or adding a, a diplomat cover. Others may be very simple, like we put a heated mattress pad on our bed. And yeah, it may get down into the mid sixties overnight, which would be a little chilly for most guests. But if you’re in bed and you got a heated mattress pad and it’s a hundred degrees between the sheets, your guests are still comfortable.

If it’s, I don’t know, I don’t know 

if, I don’t mean to interrupt you, but I don’t know if I’d be comfortable a 

hundred degrees. Well, 90, I mean, I like it a little hot maybe. Maybe it’s, I like a little toasty. But, you know, adding a, a little space heater in, in your bathroom area doing heated floors if you have tile, putting in one of the electric heated four pieces on a thermostat on a timer that can be turned on.[00:36:00] 

You know, there, there’s small things that you can do to try to maintain guest comfort in what I would call the shoulder seasons, right? The, maybe you get to open two or three weeks earlier and you, you stretch, you know, your season two, three weeks later. Hey, as long as the weather’s looking good and we still have some nice days, throw some specials out there.

Let’s, let’s get it full for the weekend. You know, you’re not gonna probably command the same rates that you would during peak season. But again, it’s, it’s that extra little bit that allows you to stretch what your season is. 

Brian: I want a heated towel rack. They were all over my hotels in London and Europe, but they’re nowhere here, and I don’t understand why they’re beautiful vengeance.

David: That is the pinnacle of luxury. 

Brian: I know. Anyway, sorry for interrupt. But, but that’s an example though, right? Like, I mean 

Zach: absolutely, absolutely. The luxury that may be a, you know, two, $300 item that you can order on Amazon and easily integrate into one of your glamping units. And, you [00:37:00] know, that becomes that really positive, you know, thing that, that guests cite in their reviews.

Like, Hey, I love this place anyway, but they have heated towel racks. Can you believe it? They thought of everything. 

Jordan: Yeah. But when you really think about it, how behind is American hospitality and compared to European hospitality. I mean, it’s such a basic item that, that you’re talking about. I mean, if you look at just something crazy to me, someone told me this a couple weeks ago that in order to have proper five star hotel, you have to have a telephone and toilet in the bathroom.

That’s a required standard to have five stars 

Brian: From who, which rating agency? 

Jordan: I, I’d have to provide it to you. That just, this is what someone from Hyatt told me. Which, which, which is shocking to me that it, that’s so nineties, for example. I mean, we’re in 20, 

Brian: we all know standards and permitting and processes and governments and everybody accept [00:38:00] the people who like to move fast. Don’t move fast. 

Jordan: Exactly. I mean, 

Zach: I think that’s, that’s one area I think where, where the glamping as an industry though. It is really being innovative and revolutionary because glamping is, it’s not about the accommodation as much as it is the experience, right? It’s the hosted experience. And I think glamping operators are much more likely to be directly responsive to their guests because their, their hearts in it.

They want to make sure that the people who stay with them have a, a positive experience and a good stay. You know, they’re, they’re not trying to hit some arbitrary checkbox on a list that says, Hey, we are five star, cuz we have a ba a telephone in the bathroom. You know? They’re looking for those smaller ways that they can really deliver a, a positive guest experience.

Brian: Is this, does anybody know if this is true? Terry Brard says on LinkedIn, heated Tower rack can be found in [00:39:00] Airstreams. I don’t know if that’s all Airstreams or the Auto Camp Luxury remodeled Airstreams or. 

Jordan: I wouldn’t be surprised as, as we said, it’s a $200 option that you can buy on Amazon.

So I wouldn’t be surprised if Airstream, you know, which is very, very smart company, didn’t integrate them into their into their Airstreams, but just shows it reinforces towel rackk’s point that it’s basic why isn’t this implemented? And the reason why it’s not implemented is because most of the hotels that we stay in are business hotels that are led by giant magnets.

So when I, for example, want to do a change in one of our rooms, you know, we, we basically get the change done. If you wanna do a change in the Marriott room, you have to do the same change for 25,000 keys. Right? And if you’re doing it for 25,000 keys, it requires real capital and a full process. So it gives us the opportunity, you know, You guys on the glamping side, [00:40:00] us as a hybrid basically between glamping and the ultra luxury space to run like a Ferrari versus operating like a semi truck.

Sara: Yeah, absolutely. 

Connor: To I, I was hoping to chime in and kind of build off towel rackh, what towel rackh was saying earlier and kind of answer Brian’s original question, but for, for people who are listening in and are considering launching a glamping business and wondering if, if winter glamping is an option, I kinda have the two first steps that we look at when we do a feasibility study for a client.

And this has kind of come up more, more and more. And winter glamping is definitely not, not big yet. It’s found in a couple very niche areas, but by and large, you know, 90 to 95% of the interest industry really isn’t emphasizing winter glamping. But maybe it’s something we’ll see more of. But, so when we’ve looked at these projects, we’ve done some in New Hampshire and Denver and Yellowstone, and.

The very first thing that I do when I’m doing a feasibility study to see if a proposed glamping business is viable is [00:41:00] I, the very first thing is looking at the win at, at the weather. So, I spend a ton of time looking at weather charts. You can [email protected] for a location. And if you’re considering what you’re glamping, there’s really kind of two key indicators that we look at.

And first is the average low temperature. So I’m usually looking at how many months of the year have an average low temperature that’s below freezing. And the second is what is the monthly snowfall in a given location? And we’ve looked at several that have five to six months that have average temperatures below freezing, and they might get anywhere from two to five feet of snow.

And I’ll, I’ll kind of get to that in a second. And the, the second major thing is what are the attractions bringing guests to the area, which a number of you guys spoke about. Is it ski resorts? Is it state or national parks? Is it a big. Cross country skiing area, or snowshoeing or snowmobiling and like really looking at, you know, what is bringing guests to the area?

What months are they coming, what are [00:42:00] they doing? And then once you have kind of have those two things, that’s usually in our mind when we would go to, okay, what’s the best unit for this, that that fits with the temperature of the area? Is it gonna be really cold? And basically, if, if an area have, has a really low average temperature, what, what you need to be thinking about is, you know, what units are, what units you, you know, you’re gonna have pipes bursting if they’re not well insulated or, and then you have the guest experience inside of the unit.

So you gotta be asking yourself, is there heating inside? Is it a properly insulated unit? Kind of what towel rackh was saying earlier, what’s the r value? Is it gonna be approved? And then the second thing to consider is if, if you are thinking about winter glamping, your guests are gonna be spending a lot more time inside.

And so, I think Ty, traditional glamping properties, most of them are set up for guests to spend a lot of time outside, whether that’s corn hole or barbecuing or out on a lake or whatever it is. But inherently with, with winter glamping, your guests are gonna be spending a lot more time inside. So [00:43:00] you might want units that are of a larger indoor volume you know, they have, they have more space.

So when guests are inside, they’re not in this claustrophobic, tiny little area. But there might be more things for them to do inside, whether that’s a table or even a television, which I’m not a big fan of, but maybe that’s one of the things. And then also a communal gathering area, you know, somewhere where guests can gather indoors where it’s insulated and warm and maybe there’s food or there’s some sort of experience happening.

So those are two really big considerations. And kind of the last thing The last thing is, is snow removal. Like if you’re in a very in a very snow heavy area, traditionally glamping sites are very large. Those long walking paths connecting units typically they’re quite isolated. So the two main things is, is your road gonna be snow plowed?

And our guests going to be able to access it. And a lot of counties will have restrictions on getting a commercial operating permit to an area that doesn’t have cloud roads. And the second thing [00:44:00] is, you know, snow removal within the site itself. You know, if there’s two feet of snow, how are you gonna guess gonna get to your unit?

So that’s a much bigger expense. So those are kind of the, the things that have come up recently in the latest feasibility studies that we’ve done for just people to kind of consider with their own property.

Brian: I’m not sure this is sound business advice, but you just have to really get them there, right?

And then if it snows after they’re there, they just stay longer, you charge ’em late, checkout fees, you make more money, right? . Perfect. Exactly. I’m not saying anybody should follow that, but 

Jordan: we, we, we have to have Brian Searl run a hotel for us. . 

Sara: I think in the UK it may be, it may be slightly different to the us but if I’m asked by a client, look, you know, what’s your view on winter glamping?

You know, in the UK it’s all about getting back to nature and being outside. And I always say, just think, be careful, because think about the mindset. So if somebody’s actually searching for a [00:45:00] glamping holiday in November, December, January, February, are they really going to book a holiday under Canvas, for instance?

So you can spend a lot of money on winterizing these units and putting heating in and you know, and trying to provide all, all of the things that you would expect people would want in the winter, but actually are they really going to book in, in, in a glamping unit during those winter months? 

Brian: Well, I think a lot of that, as we talked about, depends on demand.

But I think you’re right about Canvas too, cuz I’ve, I’ve talked to a couple resort owners we work with who have you know, conno suga wagons and stuff at their properties in Arizona, which we touched on before, which are canvas, which they were having problems booking cuz it was coal in Arizona a few weeks ago.

So I think it really depends on a variety of factors, but I definitely think you’re right. It certainly is, needs to be part of the conversation. , 

Zach: and I think that goes into that unit type discussion as well. You know, as I, I [00:46:00] mentioned before the show, I’m dealing with this actively right now because we’re, we’re actually looking at areas that have a code requirement for 90 to a hundred pounds per square foot for a snow load.

And that, that question, you know, going back to a manufacturer, Hey, you make a product, you make this thing do you have an engineering report that we can submit to a local jurisdiction that says that, yes, you know, this, this structure, this framing system will support a hundred pound per square foot snow load.

And, and, you know, it, it maybe that affects those unit types and, and to, you know, to Brian’s point I think it, it encourages Having a diverse mix of units and, and I’d be interested in hearing Connor’s thoughts on that. But you know, looking at, maybe if I’m in one of those regions and I do wanna do some winter glamping, when I look at unit types and maybe a certain percentage, you know, 20, 25% of my units are more of a hard side winter [00:47:00] year round unit.

And then I supplement my peak seasons with more the Canvas soft side or modular units. 

Connor, any thoughts? 

Connor: Yeah, it’s, it’s so site specific. But you know, oftentimes we see people bringing in additional temporary structures in the summer, which I think is, it’s hard to lose in that typically. I mean, you see under Canvas brings in there the bell tents.

A lot of, a lot of properties will bring in summer tents and I think Auto Auto Camp does it as well, and. . I think that’s a really good way to capitalize on your peak season. But it really, yeah, it, comes down to the, to each location and, and your unit type selection. 

Brian: Well, pretend, I mean, we’re pretending, remember, they’re building a resort for me to stay warm in Calgary.

I don’t know what the, the zone is of the r requirements are here, but No, I’m kidding. Anyway, but you’re right, 

Jordan: Brian. That’s why we [00:48:00] spent four and a half years developing a unit that’s basically 50 state or suite that’s 50 state compliant. You know, it’s funny because Connor and and towel rackh are bringing up all these issues, all these issues that have basically been solved.

Brian: Maybe I’m in a province, I’m not in the state. Jordan, you gotta fix it for me. 

Jordan: I mean, I’m pretty sure if we can have it work in a place like Aspen that Calgary where it’s only, I’m just giving you, but the, the . You know, I, there’s a lot of innovative companies that are more on the glamping side that actually sell their units or their suites that also have solved these issues.

You know, it’s the, the real advantage when you’re talking about what are the next steps for us, we really try to move things from, from the glamping side and providing all the assistance basically, of the of the ultra luxury size side of things. When Connor’s talking about, for example, of having a winter unit that may be a little bit larger.

So [00:49:00] for example, in comparison to a tiny home, we’re 12 feet wide versus being eight feet wide. You know, we’re 400 square feet on the inside with two decks. The decks are warm. We also have all the amenities that have been discussed in terms of the area where there’s food or whatnot. The, the, the sort of, and, and I was sort, I was laughing about it was what Connor’s describing for a winter glamping spot is basically a hotel.

And that’s sort of your solution for the wintertime is having something that resembles a hotel. And when we’re talking about permitting and whatnot and all these companies that are bringing in extra rooms and, and tinted facilities and and whatnot, you’re basically bringing in mobile hotel rooms. So it’s, it’s the same business plan as what we’re doing is just supplementing whenever there’s need.

Brian: Is that fair guys? , is that [00:50:00] a fair assessment? 

Connor: Yeah, I think so. And you know, the interesting thing for Jordan is you, you guys mentioned that you’re only working with things that are gonna be like 40 plus keys that are going into 10 to 20 year. Yeah. So I think, you know, we, we work with the, the ultra luxury, kind of the space that, that you guys are in, but then we also work with, you know, the mom and pops we’re putting 10 units on their property.

So I think it’s not really like a one size fits all approach. 

Jordan: Absolutely. I, I couldn’t agree more with you. 

Zach: Yeah, I think the capital requirements on that are, are also , you know, an an important part of, of any equation because it doesn’t matter how beautiful, how incredible the guest experience is, how amazing the unit is, if, if if it doesn’t fit in your budget, right?

If you can’t afford to do it. And I think for, as Connor mentioned, a lot of the smaller operators, you know, they’re looking for something that is unique, that that’s gonna create a unique guest experience. Something that’s memorable, something that’s not a hotel, you know, [00:51:00] if, if we’re just trying to be a hotel , you know, the Hampton Inn probably does it better than than anybody else out there, and it’s $99 a night.

Yep. And so, you know, what is the thing that sets a lamp site apart from traditional hospitality? Part of it is the operations, that hosted experience, but I think the other piece of it is a unique accommodation. Something that, that provides a fun memory that’s at a, you know, credible cider location, and that you’re staying with that personable host that, that really cares about you having a, a positive experience.

So, you know, th there’s space in everybody in this industry and, and honestly, a lot of those kind of startups, those mom and pops, that, that start with a simpler structure and maybe operate seasonally you know, two to three years down the road. They’re gonna be that customer that’s, that’s looking for something like what Jordan has that says, Hey, we’ve been doing this, this is working well.

Everybody loves our site. We need to add additional units. We need to increase demand. And, [00:52:00] and you know, by the way, maybe we don’t want to go pull a, a 3 million loan and do it ourselves. Maybe we’re ready to, to partner with a group that’s gonna come in provide some of these units and, and, you know, work with us.

So, you know, that, that’s, I think everybody, I had a client this morning tell me, he said, you know, I’m, I’m very big on kind of everybody doing what they do and doing it well, right? And not trying to, to do too much. And I, I think that’s, you know, there’s not a one size fits all. There’s not a, a magic bullet solution for winter glamping.

But I, I think all of these are, you know, really. Good approaches and, and different options for, you know, different operators, different people that are, are considering things out there. 

David: I totally agree with that. And I, I, I was just gonna add echo, something towel rackh said, which is that I, I think in some cases the reality is that sometimes the best winter plan will just be no winter plan.

You know, like there is an incremental cost to doing all of this, and fair. There’s a, you know, [00:53:00] there’s a litany of other more kind of technical infrastructure topics we haven’t even talked about yet. Like, you know, if you’re in a seasonal location where the ground freezes, you need to trench deeper to put your, run your water lines, your wastewater system.

You know, there’s a cost of doing that. And the, the, the ul you know, the really like boring, kind of like cold shower, you know, like answer to all of this is, is there actually an ROI on that incremental cost? There are incremental costs to being closed as well, right? I mean, you know, one thing, one thing we haven’t talked about that’s.

You know, a pain in the butt is, you know, if you’re seasonal and you wanna let go of 80% of your staff, you know, you’ve gotta hire them back again in the spring. And that’s, that’s not, that’s not easy, especially in some of these more rural glamping destinations. So there are, there are for sure costs to both sides, but I, you know, it was like the boring finance guy in the room.

I think, I think the reality is you just kind of have to do your, you know, your cost benefit on both [00:54:00] strategies as long, you know, and, and approach it in a sober-minded way and say, you know, the best, the best solution here might be for us to literally not plan on doing anything in the wintertime as our base case.

And then as towel rackh said, you know, you know, kind of keep your optionality to add that on later. If, if you feel that you can, you know, if you can make…. 

Brian: well, I think that’s super important to hear too, so I appreciate that David. Cuz we, you know, we talk about these things and dreams and plans and we all, especially me, I dream big, right?

With everything. I don’t ever wanna own a a glamping resort. I’m not brave enough to do that or a Campground, but still I’ve got the ideas and they need to sometimes be, you know, tempered and, and reality checked and, and sometimes that’s not the best method cuz there are lots of things that go into it.

But we’ve only got a couple minutes left here. So, what I wanna show you guys real quick I’ve told a couple people you know, this is the year of, of AI for me and how many have you have played with any real AI on this call? Anybody? Okay? You probably played with like the chat G P t right? That everybody’s talking about.

towel rackh, I’m curious from you, cause you’re a design architect. Have [00:55:00] you heard of interior ai? 

Zach: Not yet, but I’m sure it’s coming. 

You’re well right here. You’re gonna see it. So this is something I found the other. I took this and I uploaded a clearly not winter proof tent to this little site here. And basically what it does is lets you choose between what you’re building.

So I’ve got a hotel room selected. I want interior design. I’m gonna actually do virtual STA staging, so it pays attention to the walls of the tent. You can choose the style of your room, so there’s like 30 of ’em. I’ve got Bohemian cuz it kind of matches the tent. And then I just choose a bunch of other features and I hit render.

And you can see in front of you that this is gonna take probably, I don’t know, sometimes it takes a minute, sometimes it takes a little bit longer. And now we’ve got an interior design for a Bohemian style clamping tent that you just have to figure out how to order some…. 

Connor: damn . Watch out zach 

Brian: These are really interesting things that are coming out and times are changing 

Connor: fast, fast.

So maybe check that out. I think it’s like 30 bucks a month, towel rackh. You can supplement some of your [00:56:00] creative design stuff, not that you need it, it would be interacting. 

Zach: I would say I’m, I’m very fortunate to work with an incredible, amazingly talented team of interior designers. But I think that, you know, some of those things are great tools for, for someone that’s early in the process or, you know, hey, I’m, I’m just trying to get some ideas, you know?

Mm-hmm. . And I think especially with the subscriptions and that, I think that’s really what, where AI’s going to fill a need that’s, there is, you know, people, I think people still wanna work with a person directly that shares in their vision and their goals and helps them reach that. But you know, when, when you’re early on in the process and you’re approaching a jurisdiction or, or maybe funding sources or partners and you need to just show some quick ideas, that’s a great option.

Brian: And that’s the key thing. Like nobody’s saying that this is gonna replace a interior designer’s job or a writer’s job, or a marketer’s job or a whatever, right? But it’s gonna allow you to focus more on that creative process. Or in the case of an interior designer, like you can’t order all that [00:57:00] stuff. You still, you’re coming up with a theme and then you’re saying, well, I’m gonna refine this 98% further into an amazing product because that’s what my degree is in, or whatever it may be.

Cara: So I think, I still think we need access to professionals like towel rackh and Connor and, and David who understand the industry, understand the regulatory limitations around it. I mean, as I, as much as we left the ai, it’s not ready to tell us, you know, fire rated and all of those things. 

Brian: Might be surprised, Cara, but I’ll keep my mouth shut for now.

Zach: I am fortunate. I think you know, at least for, for the, the 55 licensing jurisdictions that I would be able to be licensed in Working with a licensed architect is still required for for any of course. 

Brian: Yeah. And again, the the point of just to hammer this home, the point is not saying that this is going to replace architects or anybody. This is gonna supplement and change the way we work to, I think allow us in, help us work better, work better. 

Zach: Exactly. 

Brian: So, alright, we are out of time. 

We are over. [00:58:00] Thank you guys for joining us for another episode of MC Fireside Chats. Super appreciative of it. Next week we will be back with another episode.

Focusing I think on Campground Owners is our third week. Right. So thank you again for Horizon Outdoor Hospitality for sponsoring this episode, and we will see you all again next week. Another episode. Take care guys. 

Cara: Thank you. 

Bye-bye. 

Connor: Thanks everybody. 

[00:59:00]