MC Fireside Chats – April 3rd, 2024

This is MC Fireside Chats, a weekly show featuring conversations with thought leaders, entrepreneurs, and outdoor hospitality experts who share their insights to help your business succeed. Hosted by Brian Searl, the founder and CEO of Insider Perks, empowered by insights from Modern Campground, the most innovative news source in the industry.

Brian Searl: Welcome everybody to another episode of [00:01:00] MC Fireside Chats. I don’t know. Could you guys actually see that intro? Cause I couldn’t see it on my side. So hopefully that played. And if not, they were just looking at this super cool wood background, but I’m on my like tiny little laptop in my house that I’m moving to.

And this is the only chair in my ugly flowery background that Scott says adds to my personality. Which I feel like maybe that I should keep, Scott, or? 

Scott Bahr: Absolutely. Absolutely. See, mine is books, which, is like dry, dull, that kind of thing, 

Brian Searl: But it makes you look educated. Are you actually educated, or? Mike, what are you doing? Were you blinking in and out for, Mike? 

Mike Harrison: No, I was going to turn off my virtual background so you could see I’m at the Link Casino in a meeting room booth, if my background’s boring. 

Brian Searl: What are you doing at the casino, though? 

Mike Harrison: Storage conference. 

Brian Searl: That’s fun. Did you win any money?

Mike Harrison: There you go. There’s my background. 

Brian Searl: Very strange. What is that? 

Mike Harrison: Couple of overhead lights behind me. 

Brian Searl: Two flying saucers. It looks like glowing Mickey Mouse ears. [00:02:00] Oh, it does. That’s actually a good idea. Yeah. We were looking for stuff to talk about during the shows. 

Mike Harrison: It’s a small world after all.

Brian Searl: So anyway, so welcome everybody to another show here week one. And just influx a little bit here, moving and stuff like that. But I think we have a great conversation. We’re gonna talk to Scott a little bit about some data he’s seeing. The report that we released, which is about, what was the report we just released, Scott?

Scott Bahr: Sustainability. Sustainable practices. 

Brian Searl: Sustainable practices. Was that the upcoming one or is that the That’s the one that 

Scott Bahr: we’re getting ready to 

Brian Searl: Yes. Now you told everybody and, oh my God. Everyone knows. Sorry. All right. So that’s the one that’s coming up, but we’ll talk about some of the data.

About the one that we released a couple of weeks ago. So we can go over that stuff and then I’m sure we’ll find something else to talk about as we continue. But anything new that’s come across your desk, Mike or Scott in the last month, that’s not related to reports or data that you want to make sure we talk about and highlight, we’re missing a bunch of people today.

Mike Harrison: So go ahead, Scott. 

Scott Bahr: No, I was [00:03:00] just going to say, it seems like There’s just a lot of buzz going on right now about what’s, people, what’s happening, in the near term. I haven’t heard a lot of talk, part of what would be, I would talk about, would be what’s missing, is I don’t hear a lot of talk about anything more forward looking than beyond the eclipse, to be honest with you.

It seems like the eclipse has taken all the air out of the room. And I, and that’s just me from my perspective. People are, I 

Brian Searl: thought we were just having the eclipse and then everyone was going back to Florida for the winter. 

Scott Bahr: Apparently that’s what’s happening here in Maine. We were, we have a a pretty nice path for the eclipse.

And so a lot of people are showing up for that. So the world’s standing still and we’re getting a foot and a half of snow today. So yeah, I should probably 

Brian Searl: qualify people who are, who don’t. Everybody probably knows about my sarcasm, right? Do I need to explain that? I don’t know. The Eclipse is certainly a big event, but I feel like literally all I’ve seen everywhere in every email and every communication is Eclipse.

It’s one [00:04:00] day out of 365. What is your plan for the rest of the year? Anyway, I hope it goes well for people. I’m just saying. 

Mike Harrison: I didn’t even know there was an Eclipse, 

Brian Searl: you need, I’ll subscribe you to a couple of lists, Mike, don’t worry. Yeah, I’ll get you out. It’s 2044. It’s coming back. So April 11th, there’s a three day gap to be reasonable, right?

But April 11th, we’re going to start heavily promoting 2044. So everybody knows. They were waiting. Shara’s messaging me in private chat. Jeff is not in the room, so send him the correct link. Shara, he’s not here, but okay. So yeah, we’ll talk about, let’s talk about it is a good conversation about advanced reservations, right?

And plans for the season. Mike, I know we’ve touched about this briefly, but is there any data that you have that shows or new data, since the last time we talked about booking lead times or if people should be concerned about what’s happening? I think you and I had a brief conversation and you’ve decided to share what you want to share, but just a brief conversation about how some of your properties are [00:05:00] indicators given the season.

Mike Harrison: Yeah, sure. And I don’t know if concerned is the right word. I think it’s, weary or being You know aware of what’s going on, but, if you look back to last year and, a lot of the indicators where the occupancy was slowing as we headed into the back half of the year and advance bookings were slowing, but rate was up, so revenues were still healthy.

And then, if you looked at the end of Q4, and then in beginning of Q1, a lot of the indicators, a lot of the experts and a lot of the large brands, I should say informational sources that rate is now starting to come back down. And then now, if you speak with some of the pundits or the feasibility experts, they’re also predicting that occupancy will actually be down, 1 to 4 percent for the year.

And if rate is flat or stabilized, obviously that means backwards revenue for everybody. So our properties are in the non eclipse zone, in the Southwest over here. So our season happens typically before everybody else. So we always feel like we get a good indicator of [00:06:00] what.

It’s going to happen across the country based on what we see. And we had already seen the advanced bookings, down six months ago, eight months ago. And we obviously had a first quarter that was a little bit slower than last year. So we knew it was coming.

Now that’s why I said when I opened, not concerned, weary or be aware because, I still think the, everything goes through a cycle or a small blip. And I think there’s several factors going on, and Scott, you probably have better research to, to back up what I’m about to say, but clearly the industry is cyclical, just like every other industry, and with the explosion of new builds everybody developing and opening campgrounds there’s an inundation of new supply, just like what happened in the hotel business in the early 2000s, then again after, 2010, 11, 12, all the supply came in.

And, the existing supply had to absorb, wait for the new supply to stabilize, and so that it took a small little, stable dip, but then it shot back up. And the last three hotel [00:07:00] cycles, that was exactly the pattern. And so I expect that the same thing will happen here, is that it’ll probably take a year or two to normalize the new supply, and then after that, occupancy will start to grow again in orderly.

Now, the other part to this, there’s numerous factors. One is we’re comparing against record years, all time record years. So is occupancy really down? If we look at it versus 2018, let’s say, then we know the answer to that. Rates are up, revenues are up, NOI is up versus 2018 for sure. So this is, to me, more of a normalization as opposed to a concern.

And number three is, of course, at the same time of the new supply and normalization, there’s also many recession, interest rates are up, the gas prices still really haven’t come back down. So there’s a lot of factors that are occurring. So as we talk to a lot of developers in the space that are looking for new builds, these are the kinds of conversations that we’re having, with them about what the trends will be for what we think is at least the next six to 18 months.

Brian Searl: Do you really believe then, and I’m not saying I don’t, I’m just being, [00:08:00] playing devil’s advocate, although maybe I don’t, but do you really believe that the one to four percent down, and I’ve heard different various numbers from those, just picking on the ones that you specifically said, do you really believe that’s.

Is this only related to more supply? 

Mike Harrison: No, that’s why I think it’s various factors. I think it’s the mini recession. I think it’s the gas prices. I think it’s everything combined into that as well. So no, I don’t think it’s just the new supply. And it will be regionalized as well, right? Depending on what market you’re in, that could be worse.

It could be better. So it’s a. And since there’s no national, even state specific statistics, like the Star Report for the hotel industry, a lot of it is guess. A lot of it is, ad hoc or, telephone reporting, so to speak. 

Brian Searl: I don’t want to focus on this too much, but why do you, is it your wording? Why is it mini recession? Do you feel like we’re going to pop right back out of this or? 

Mike Harrison: There’s different, I am not an economist. 

Brian Searl: From a camping industry perspective is I guess what I’m asking. I don’t want to delve into that. 

Mike Harrison: I think we’re [00:09:00] going to pop out of it, but I also don’t think, even though it’s a mini recession stock report, if you looked at the definition of recession two, two quarters in a row, et cetera, et cetera, it hit those definitions.

If you look at, Other economic periods that have had declines, the declines have been steeper than in this one. And the Fed still talks about the interest rates coming back down, soon, to what degree. So that’s why I say it’s a mini recession. I don’t think it’ll be long term, prolonged.

I don’t think it’ll be large in terms of scale. So that’s not a scientific fact based Mike Harrison research that term. That’s my own personal feeling of where we’re at. So I don’t 

have 

Brian Searl: any fact to back it up either, but I think you’re wrong. I think it’s going to be prolonged and it’s going to be bad.

I think the camping industry will be fine. For the most part, but so we’ll see, but anyway welcome Jeff, Mark. Let’s talk about something happier. So we don’t want to do all that stuff, but we were talking about just some statistics of booking lead times and things like that. And what you guys are seeing around the industry.

I don’t know if you guys want to chime in. Scott, obviously you’re the data guy, but the less I talk, the better as I, [00:10:00] Seem to try to reiterate on the show, but I still talk every week more than I want. So 

Mike Harrison: yeah, Let’s see who else can be wrong as opposed to having a differing opinion. 

Mark Koep: I’ll actually share a story.

So as I saw many of you out on the trade show route, I just got home after being out on the road for two months, traveling all over the country, basically 20, 000 or 10, 000 miles in two months. So did a little bit of road miles on the RV and the story I’ll share is we were on our way back from, the Boston area for the New England show and heading across, we stopped at Indiana Dunes State Park, which is also Indiana Dunes National Park. And they have a campground there. It’s open. It has electrical hookups, you can pull in and camp there. So pull in and camp, and this is. Two weeks ago, there’s a blizzard going across the country.

Campground was probably 40 percent full at Indiana Dunes, right? It’s near a major city, meaning near Chicago, and it’s a state park and so forth. What was interesting about it is they had, and I actually ended up speaking to the manager of the park, they’ve had that occupancy all winter long. People have been camping there, and this is [00:11:00] not a place where you can stay.

It’s camping, right? So a lot of folks camping. I got to talk to him about it. I’m like, is this normal for this park? He’s no. He COVID that people are camping, and what was interesting about that is we have a viral video that went up for campground views. And it’s a video that I filmed for my RV because they knocked on my door and they said, Hey, we’re removing the tree outside of your RV.

And I was like, Are you serious? And yeah, but we’ll have tension on it. So it’ll fall away from your RV. And they proceeded to cut down about 150 foot pine tree. That was about 10 feet from my rig. It actually pivoted and fell not where they were pulling it, but across the front of my RV. 10 minutes later, a limb that’s called a Widowmaker from the neighboring tree broke, fell off, and killed the picnic table that my wife was just sitting at, not two minutes earlier.

The long story there is that because they’re so busy, they are actually cutting down trees and doing their yard maintenance in the middle of people camping in their freaking campground because of the demand in the [00:12:00] wintertime. In the spot, and we experienced that in unique places. I agree with Mike. I agree with you, Brian.

This is going to be a weird year. I think it’s going to continue on because the economics in different areas have changed. And the reason for people to travel has changed. So parks that have traditionally had folks in them. They’re all doing well. Their bookings are consistent. The newer parks that don’t have the record, they’re going to be more challenged on getting folks in there.

And it’s just going to be a weird year from a traveling perspective. But what I can tell you is the folks that are out traveling, they’re there having a good time. They’re enjoying the lifestyle. They’re in newer RVs and they’re looking forward to that overall adventure. So echoing what Brian said, our industry is in a good position.

It’s just going to be a different position as we go forward. Yeah, again, 

Brian Searl: I don’t, I’m not worried at all about the camping industry, and I’ll shut up in a second because I know other people need to talk, I’m not worried at all about the industry. I’m worried about the shift away from perhaps the middle tier parks, like just picking the KOA holidays or something like that, right?

I think the state parks are going to benefit. I think the BLM land [00:13:00] is going to benefit. I think the higher end parks are going to be fine. I’m worried about the middle end park. Yeah. 

Jeff Hoffman: Brian, if I can speak to that. As we went into some downturns in the hotel business, what we found is mid to upper stayed well.

The people that are investing in their campgrounds and updating them will probably do well. The state parks are always going to do well because they have a certain price point and they also get to pick the most beautiful land. For But what I find is, even in a recession, camping does okay. I do see a trend to lessen the expense of camping, which is going off grid, but I still think the RV park and [00:14:00] campground That is well maintained is going to still be a good player in the industry.

The ones 

Brian Searl: that are so critically important, the well maintained, the looked after, and there’s so many parks that have just not had to do that for so long. You got it. I think that’s that. Yeah, I 

Jeff Hoffman: think that’s an always gets kicked out. 

Mike Harrison: I think, what parks also need to do is, this is the time to really.

They’ve been sitting fat in a hog for so long, have they gone through their P& L, right? Is there fat in their P& L? What’s their label model look like? Have they looked at their contracts? What’s the utility rate? Is their energy conservation any good? What’s their cost per occupied cabin?

All the basic management tenets where maybe you were just, your revenue growth was so hand over foot the last two years, three years to Jeff’s point, to your point, you didn’t have to think about it, now you do. And if you aren’t, it’s to obviously your own detriment, it’s your bottom line.

So that’s what we’re seeing as a trend is some of the [00:15:00] conversations starting to go at all these various conferences and no different. I’m at the storage conference right now in Vegas. And it’s the exact same discussion, right? They were looking at 22 and 21 as record years, right? 23, a little bit flat, and they’re anticipating that it’ll be down a little bit, and a lot of the discussion is exactly around well maintained facility and cost controls.

That, that is probably the two main principles I’ve picked up here so far, which is exactly the same thing, right? It’s, we have to be good stewards of our business. 

Brian Searl: Yeah. And if consumers are going to pick. If there’s going to be less people going camping, but still a lot more than 2018, 2019, right?

They’re going to pick the well maintained, which in this case, like the developers, I think are going to benefit from this. The brand new shiny parks, as long as they’re doing some marketing, right? They know what they’re doing from an op standpoint. I think they’re going to benefit more. 

Mark Koep: Just on the macro level, what we know and basically is that lower class folks, middle class folks, earning wise are getting [00:16:00] crushed right now by overall costs and inflation.

So there’s not free money there to go recreational camping at a private park. That’s where they’ll end up at a public park. That’s going to be lesser fees on the flip side folks that have the capital and the means they’re going to still travel and go camping. I think it was Brian that mentioned that about that.

The middle market parks are going to, if. Feel affected. The higher end ones will do well, and it’s just going to, it’s how the things are going to feather out over these next few months and into the next few years, I think you’re just going to have to really, if you’re an operator running a park, you’re going to have to kill it.

You’re just going to have to do a really good job with your amenities, your features, and I think importantly, I’ve said this at a few of the shows, this is the year of the marketers, the folks that can effectively drive. Eyeballs to their website from guests who are looking to convert. Those are the ones that are going to win.

Even if you don’t have the greatest amenities or the greatest features, if you’re able to drive more eyeballs in and convert them into guests, you’re going to do well. So unlike years past when you didn’t really have to do much of anything, people were knocking down your door. This is the year where you’re really going to have to get effective at marketing and then [00:17:00] carry that forward.

Mike Harrison: And because there’s more competitors. Go ahead, 

Scott Bahr: Scott. Oh, actually, Mike, that’s essentially, I was going to build on that whole idea of what’s available in the market and how people are planning their trips, which includes, especially when in a down economy or when finances are a little rough, what you tend to see is a much more of a mix of how, some blended types of trips where they may, pick some stays.

at a park where there’s fees at a private, maybe the mid range park, but they’re decreasing the length of their stay and the trade off is to stay at more rustic locations. So that’s one of the things that we’ve seen is that blend and the organizations that are providing those kind of, those convenient ways, especially for people, convenient, lower cost ways to stay whether it’s along the way or as part of the destination, those are the ones that are really important.

Benefiting right now. And I, that, that seems to be, at least from my perspective, [00:18:00] what we’re starting to see and what I would predict will continue to 

Mark Koep: happen. And I’ll add on to that because one of the things that we did in this journey, and it was unique because we were traveling through a lot of the colder areas where a lot of parks are shut down is we actually stayed at three different of the Loves RV stops where they’ve got either RV sites next to the pumps or actually a dedicated RV park in the case of normal Illinois.

And we had to. We also took the opportunity to stay at one of the RV self park locations. So these are the, the automated style RV parks that you stop at overnight instead of doing a Walmart or whatnot. And I can tell you that’s a huge gap filled in our industry. And it’s a very, from the customer basis as a camper.

Loved it because I can bust out the miles knowing that I was going to stay at a campground, bust out the miles and stay at a gas station. Back in, hook up, sleep, wake up, fill up and go again. So we’re able to cover the miles and that is a huge gap. Now, obviously a lot of folks will go boondocking or Walmart or Harvest Host and so forth, but I just think that Loves is really filling a gap.

And obviously [00:19:00] they’ve been announcing that they’re going to be adding what, like four more campsites. 45 more locations this year to that service. I think it’s a smart move on their part. And I think it really helps our overall industry because again, it’s not cheap. It was 45 bucks a night for these spots.

So it wasn’t like I was cheaping it out. It was just very convenient for those overnight spots at which I think that’s a gap that’s being filled. 

Brian Searl: Yes, it’s a gap, but it’s a gap that’s going to pull some it’s not going to cause more people to go camping. It’s going to pull people who may have otherwise gone a little bit further off the road, isn’t it?

Mark Koep: It, what I found it, that’s a good question. I don’t know the answer on that one, Brian. Is it going to cause more people to camp? What, the reason I did this trip in an RV is there was two parts. Number one, I like RVing, but number two, I wanted to experience camping in the cold, like how, what is it like from a camping perspective, because the reality is as an industry, we’re very limited to that three month window or five month window when it’s warm, right?

Can we open that season up and get people traveling more? What we know during COVID is a lot of people. Even though airline travel is up [00:20:00] again, there’s a lot of people who would prefer they have Airstreams or whatnot, the Class B vans, if they can drive somewhere in their van, and even stay in hotels along the way, but potentially stay in these roadside stops, they’re more likely to do that.

So does that extend our camping season out? And from my observations, non scientific, Scott, this is not a survey. I didn’t serve any, survey anybody, but just observationally. We were staying in campgrounds in cold areas where there were other campers staying in those campgrounds too. Now, does that happen year round all the time?

I don’t know, but it was just an interesting observation that people are 

Brian Searl: Don’t let them fool you, Scott. He’s coming for your job. 

Scott Bahr: I was actually I’m agreeing with them because we’ve been tracking the participation in off season camping for a few years now. It’s been something I personally have been for about three years now that, cause we’ve seen it increase incrementally.

I wrote a piece last, a year ago about how the off season helped to prop up the year and participation in some areas. [00:21:00] And I feel like it’s continuing to grow. And for a number of reasons, Mark alluded to many of those. It’s I feel like the biggest deterrent is people having A place to stay in cold weather, whether it’s an rv, a cabin, or ut or whatever is comfortable.

Or, having their RV outfitted for cold weather. That, and having places open and available for them to stay, but the desire is there and the, those barriers include a lot of what I just mentioned. For example, among RVs who said that they wanted to have a win a winter cold weather experience.

The biggest issue was their RV wasn’t equipped for cold weather. 

Brian Searl: Interesting. Okay. So let’s, here’s what I think, and you guys can all disagree with me, but this is interesting direction given the, not necessarily the pivot we recently had to winter camping, but what we started this off at as a fundamental, like things are changing a little bit in the industry and everybody has different opinions on that.

But from booking [00:22:00] lead times to you have to market your park that was mentioned to, upgrading and maintaining to doing the things. So what if we spend a little bit of a few minutes here talking about As you guys are experts in this industry and in your various areas, what would you lay out as a basic guideline for if I’m a park owner and I’ve been full the last two, three, five years, haven’t had to do anything, what do I need to pay attention to that I can, obviously I can’t build a new splash pad before Memorial Day.

What are some things that I can do that would help me weather this whatever’s coming in 2024? 

Mark Koep: I’ll jump in here Because, again, my argument is that it’s a marketing year, so the two things that a park owner needs to do, number one, they need to get really good at email marketing, because they have a list of people who have stayed at their park, that’s your low hanging fruit, if you can communicate with those folks on a regular basis and make offers to get them into your park, That’ll work.

Number one. Number two is get really good at understanding your analytics for your website and your conversion rates. [00:23:00] That may have sounded like a foreign language right there, but understand where your traffic’s coming from to your website and how many of those folks actually become guests. So your traffic and your conversion rate.

Because then you know, What’s working, what’s not, and now you can effectively apply your budget into the channels that are driving guests into your property. And you can also focus on the one thing that 99 percent of RV parks don’t do well, and that’s having a really awesome website that converts guests into, or converts eyeballs into guests.

So those would be the two things that are my lowest hanging fruit. So I’ll mention those. Email and understanding how people are booking through your website. 

Brian Searl: Who’s next? You don’t have to talk about marketing. You can take it in whatever direction you want. 

Mike Harrison: Yeah, go ahead, Scott. Or Jeff, sorry. 

Jeff Hoffman: My thing would be just to Walk your campground. Along with the marketing, if you’ve done anything new, update, clean. Just have a better park for people to pull [00:24:00] into. If you keep asking for more money and they don’t see you putting anything in, it’s gonna reflect.

People don’t mind paying updated pricing if they see that the owner is putting some of that money back into the experience. Because that’s what we’re selling now more is the actual camping experience and trying to make it more of a family or even if it’s a couple, trying to give them stuff that would be an experience on our campgrounds.

Brian Searl: So let me ask you this and you’re, I don’t think you’re wrong, but I think there’s two sides to that because you’re talking about. Repeat guests who come back to the same area or the same park who know enough. And I know you’re not only talking about repeat, but generally speaking, the people who are to notice that, to notice if the owner is putting money in, there has to be a baseline comparison to what it was. Before. Whether it’s through marketing or pictures or whether that’s staying with them or whatever [00:25:00] else, how much does that impact somebody who’s driving across the country or looking to get away for the weekend and has never been to your park or is staying closer to home because gas prices are more expensive, obviously there’s a maintenance component to it, but how much of that comparison is noticeable to that kind of guest?

Jeff Hoffman: Somewhat, I would go back to Mark’s comment in that if you’ve had an operating system for a number of years. You’re going to have an email marketing list of past tenants or guests, and if you can get back to them, what you’ve done, because they may have stayed there six years ago, and you’ve redone the part quite a bit since then because what I noticed, our revenues across the board were, Either slightly up, slightly down, but what I really noticed was camper nights were quite a bit off, and [00:26:00] we have to go back and try to get our old campers back to us along with the new.

What doesn’t scare me is, even though the RV business is showing that they’re down in sales, If, like Mike said, if you take it back to 2017 2018, they’re still selling units at a great pace. I think it was 365, 000 units were sold. I’m not sure if that’s correct. But then I also looked at the used market.

And totally, I think there were 38, 000 new sites made last year. So that’s going to affect the demand a little bit, but it’s not taking all of those new 

Brian Searl: campers. But this is very, all of this is very nuanced. And I know we can’t pick this apart in an hour, right? But, and I don’t know what the numbers are that you’re talking about [00:27:00] for sales.

I haven’t looked at them recently, but we’ll assume you’re correct. So 300, 000, but what type of units are those? And all the, are all those going to private campgrounds? 

Mark Koep: Mo, the majority of ’em are trailers. Travel trailers lead the bunch. The motor homes had a drop. Class Bs were up slightly. Fifth wheels trended, so mainly the cheaper units that somebody can travel, it dragged somewhere and go camping in it.

Now the question on where people camp, that’s a hard one. Harvest Hosts, Boondocking, Forest Service, State Parks, National Parks, like all these locations in addition to campgrounds, RV parks and RV resorts. Where do they camp at? They camp in the destination they want to go to. So what we’ve seen is the places that have done a good job and drawn the folks in, they camp there.

When the comment about we’ve got 300, 000 new units, there’s 38, 000 new sites I actually challenged that number that there’s 38, 000 new sites. It seems a little high to me just overall. I don’t know. I didn’t count it. So let’s assume that it’s right. Yeah. The other assumption I’ll make is the folks that built those sites understood the demand for their parks, and so they didn’t build sites that weren’t being filled.

That’s a [00:28:00] big stretch, right? To make that jump. But we had assumed that basically people are going to go camping in the places that they’re going to go camping, and those new sites were added in those areas. The area around Zion, perfect example. There’s four or five new RV parks opening up in that region right now, like in this current time period.

It’s a hot area. So the demand is there for those parks to operate. The existing operators obviously don’t like it, but it’s the market is drawn in that demand. So I just want to jump in. The number is the majority are travel trailers. Class B’s are slightly up, A’s are down, C’s and 5th wheels are about even.

Brian Searl: And I think the reason, sorry, real quick, Mike, I promise. So the reason I just wanted to clarify that and dig into those, what does that mean is because I don’t, again, I don’t, I’m not negative on our industry. I think it’s great, but I feel it’s necessary. Sometimes we see all this data and reports and stuff come out that the camping industry is great.

Cool. But like on this show, at least we’re primarily talking to private campground owners. How good is it for them? [00:29:00] Sorry, go ahead, Mike. 

Mike Harrison: I think, going back to the original question about, you’ve got a campground that’s been, doing great for two years, and now they’ve got to pivot.

And even if you’re not, or you’re new to me, I think everything is about modernization, or evolving. And so if you look at all the data and all the statistics, a majority of the campers that are coming into the industry are under 50 years old, right? Where historically the industry has really been obviously baby boomer, older, et cetera, et cetera.

And, modernizing. What our deliverables are in all aspects, so even marketing, and not that I disagree with Mark about the email marketing, but really it’s now texting, right? And the texting open rate is quintuple what the email is. The response rate is quintuple what the email is.

The digital marketing isn’t just about Facebook marketing or even Google ads, right? The evolution of the digital space ancillary revenues, right? It isn’t just the camp store anymore. What are you doing with an adventure package, an experience package, and, how do you provide, some additional [00:30:00] revenue streams that you haven’t before?

The guest experience Jeff had mentioned, providing a well maintained facility, which is extremely important, a lot of the campers that are coming into the space, they’re looking for experiential hospitality. They’re not seasoned campers, they’re coming from the hotel world as an alternative, where it’s their first time and they need something more interesting than it has been in the past.

So I think modernization to me is the key word, bringing it for the next generation that is, wants to be more online, a little bit more automation, more technology AI based chats, whatever it might be. I think the modernization is imperative. In all aspects, whatever it might be.

Brian Searl: But so if I’m a campground owner and this can go to everybody or you, Mike, or whoever, if I’m a campground owner and I’ve got like my revenues down, my camper nights are down, I don’t know what to do between now and like I’m staring down really 30, 45 days until my season kicks into high gear, 60 days, maybe.

What can I do between those 60 days? Cause I can’t modernize [00:31:00] everything. 

Mike Harrison: Can. I think, what do you do? You call me, you call Jeff Hoffman, or you call Brian, or you call Mark, all four of us on this call have some form or fashion of marketing, deliverable, enhancing revenue.

So there’s absolutely ways in 45 days where you could 

Brian Searl: Yeah, from modernizing marketing, yes, I guess I meant the other things, right? I’m sorry for not clarifying. 

Mike Harrison: You can still even in the other parks, right? There’s the other parts of the park. There are all sorts of different things you can do in 45 days.

Can you build something in 45 days? Maybe not, so much of an experience is about emotion and memory. It isn’t about stuff, right? And so what is the activities that you’re creating? What are the experiences that you’re generating? How are you training your staff? Do you understand your market, your concept, your demographics and everybody that’s coming in?

There are all sorts of things that, that you can do. To get ready for the season of 45 days. And I encourage you to call Jeff as a consultant or us as a third party or Mark, for his product or Brian for marketing or any of the experts for help, we’re, even if you don’t spend a dime with [00:32:00] us, I know all of us are open for phone calls and support and, to help.

Jeff Hoffman: Yeah. And in keeping with that, Mike just changing up. How we greet the guest as far as we do have the technology now to just Get them as they come in with your tablet or whatever check them in Have the instead of having them have to come in to the guest Come in to the store you meet them outside Take them by cart to their site walk them through the site make sure everything is up to date and log them in and just You know, you can give them a coupon then to get them back into the store, but the main thing is they’ve been on the road, they want to get set up, they want to make sure everything is correct, and we can do that with technology.

We can also, there’s systems that we send out messages to them as they’re on their way, letting them know [00:33:00] weather conditions and, boy, we’re going to be glad to see you, and then the whole time they’re at the campground, we can, Keep texting them with updates for activities and everything else. And I think that’s what you’re talking about by modernizing the experience.

Mark Koep: Absolutely. Yeah, I love that. I completely agree that if a park can provide a touchless check in experience where a person pulls in and they just go straight to the site without having to get out and go to the office, that’s what the consumer wants. No consumers is And I, anybody can challenge me on this one, but no consumer is complaining that they had to do that.

They’re not saying, oh damn, I didn’t get the chance to come out and meet you in your office. Nope, sweet. I got to go right into my site. So I completely agree with that. That is, that’s probably the most difficult thing for a lot of park operators to do because there’s this, they feel like they’re losing that sense of touch that they have with their customers, but there’s other ways to fill that gap.

And Jeff just touched on it, yeah, I completely agree with that. 

Brian Searl: How do we overcome this? [00:34:00] Because this is a I’ve talked about this with marketing and tech before, and we’ve all talked about this at various points from conferences and things like that. It’s like the people who are on this call and a lot of people who are listening to this call have already done it too.

So not just , you know, bragging about the five of us, right? But we know what needs done from a modernization standpoint. We know the tech, we know how to deploy it. We know what to recommend. We know the vendors, we know the right, but there’s so many owners and not all to a certain extent, but a significant percentage, I would think probably at least 30 to 40% Who just close their ears whenever you talk about anything about changing guest behavior or experience of the check in process or remote or not.

Mike Harrison: Ask them if they want to go open up a Blockbuster video. For those folks, 

Brian Searl: And that’s the thing is that, 

Mike Harrison: but that’s to their own detriment. You’ve heard me talk before about Simon Sinek’s Law of Diffusion of Innovation. You have the early adopters, and then, the only time [00:35:00] somebody changed out from a rotary phone is because people don’t make them anymore, right?

And, for those people that are closing their ears, it’s to their own detriment. If they’re not willing to understand how to adapt or evolve their business, it doesn’t mean everybody has to be tech experts. But, you will not be provided the same level of service. You will not have the same enhancements.

You will not have the same support. You will not be able to drive what’s available. Current customer wants. And, I think it’s through continued education. And I think also I was, I had this exact discussion with one of our we’ll just call him a friend with gray hair and a ponytail. And, he, We had a discussion about technology, replacing, customer service, that loss of sense of touch and my message is technology does not replace hospitality, it supplements hospitality, it adds to hospitality, we use Rigsby or, that’s our trademark one, but Campy, is a great example of the AI chatbot, it does not replace a human, it supplements the human touch and interaction.

And no matter who All of these different tools that [00:36:00] are coming out, there are still, the difference between outdoor hospitality and the regular hotel business is the hotel business has lost some of that sense of hospitality, and you’ve heard me talk about before the camping industry is still, you come out on your porch and you got your cup of coffee and your boxer shorts and the other guys across the next site and he comes out, in his bathrobe and you’re like, Hey, Bob.

Hey, Tim. A hotel, if you did that, they’d call security on you. And, that won’t really save you. 

Brian Searl: I’m trying to picture that, but anyway, continue. 

Scott Bahr: I’d like to ask you, the whole idea of the use of technology is The idea that with the touchpoints, it’s like, it frees you up for a quality touchpoint.

It’s one of the things we know is that one of the biggest risks and riskiest touchpoints is check in, for example. If you blow a check in, they go there, it’s crowded, people are, it’s stressful, that, that puts a cloud over the rest of the stay, regardless of what happens. It does.

It’s really strong. And if it can [00:37:00] free. The operator up to actually create a touch point, a quality touch point, at some other time during their stay. It’s that’s the trade off you want. It’s just a it’s just more it’s a quality. 

Brian Searl: That’s the thing is there has to be that follow up to that quality touch point.

And so that’s where. You’re talking about like technology can supplement, but you have to just not let technology then take over. Then you have to, 

Scott Bahr: Don’t just sit in your office and go play Tetris or whatever. It’s yeah. 

Mark Koep: And I’ll go back to what you let off that question with Brian is part of the thing about our industry is It’s actually an easy business to get into.

You got a couple hundred grand in your savings account. You got a piece of property. You can build an RV park and open it up. Hip Camp’s proving it all day. You don’t even need to have a license. You can just start a campground in your backyard today. Knock on hip camp. Anyways, point being is that it’s a relatively easy business to get into.

And so folks come into the industry there’s people out there that view owning a campground as a retirement plan. I’m going to own this in my retirement years. And [00:38:00] they want to do it that way. And Now, is that everybody? No, but when you, when we talk about as an industry, as a whole, there’s a large group of folks out there who don’t want to change because why should they?

I’m making the money I want to make. I have the guests in here I want to have come in here. The trick is, and it behooves us as folks in the industry is to Nudge them along because the experience they’re providing in their parks is affecting our industry. When people are traveling through and staying at the park, if they have a less optimal experience, that affects our industry as a whole.

And how do we get, how do we get them to adopt, I’ve taken a weird approach on this and I may be, I don’t know, I’m open to argument on this one, but I’ve come to the conclusion that some places will not change until they’re either taken over by the kids or acquired by somebody else.

Who’s willing to actually implement those changes. So I think it’s going to be a slow shift as it happens, but it’s going to accelerate because the folks that kind of get the systems down and they realize, wow, I can buy this park for a lower cap rate and make a crap ton of money on it. Spending it around.

That’s where this thing’s going to shift. Cause they can start going in and [00:39:00] acquiring properties and implementing the systems that do everything that we’re talking about. 

Brian Searl: I think change is the hard part, right? For everything. There’s always that fear of change, whether you’re a campground owner or you’re any other person in the entire world in any industry, right?

But I don’t know, I guess I feel a little bit of guilt sometimes with maybe I’m not doing what I should be doing to try to explain it correctly to people. But I don’t know, maybe I should just let myself off the hook. 

Mark Koep: You can’t, hey, I got three kids. The one thing you know about kids is you can’t change people.

And I’m married too. You can’t change people. People are the way they are. So I think that’s a basic tenet of life. All you can do is make suggestions, show them a better way and allow them to decide on their own, I think. So you’re off the hook, Brian, 

Mike Harrison: it’s not on you. And I think it’s about data, right?

Brian, you and I have been talking about this with Campy for a while. It’s just an example. Data is hard to argue, right? Here are the statistics [00:40:00] of reduced and missed call volume. Here is the statistics of enhanced service scores since rolling out Campy. Here are the statistics of, better quality reservation scores.

Here are the, so if somebody still refuses to listen after data is presented, You can’t rationalize with an irrational person. It’s not our job to convince them, right? Our job is to provide support and education for the industry. If somebody refuses to listen and to adopt and to make a decision to their own benefit, that’s on them, right?

So I think, all of us continue to push forward, with the message of building up the industry and supporting and educating and training and evolving. And, some people will be quick, some people will be a little slower, and some people are going to be left behind. The people that will be left behind, you can’t, worry about the 15% that have no interest in doing it.

That’s worried about the other. I 

Brian Searl: agree. I don’t think, I don’t think it’s only 15%. That’s what concerns me. I think it’s much larger than 

Mark Koep: 15%. Yes. I would say roughly 60%. 

Mike Harrison: Let’s convert ’em. We’ll get it [00:41:00] down. 

Brian Searl: I have confidence. 

Jeff Hoffman: Yeah, Mike, that’s I’m, what I’m finding out is as I do some work with some clients, I now know how my teachers felt when they were trying to give me the answers and I didn’t listen.

It’s frustrating because you know what they need to do and you show them, but they just won’t change to accept it. And I know change is tough. If you want to stay and grow in this industry, you’re going to have to change and meet modern technology, modern specs, everything that’s happening in the industry.

We’re moving to a more professional age in this industry and you have to keep up. Otherwise, you’re going to be one of the parks that I used to buy after you’ve gone downhill and just want to get out of the business. 

Mike Harrison: Their bottom line will tell them if they have to change, [00:42:00] and if they still refuse to change, again, there’s nothing you can do about that.

Hopefully, if somebody’s struggling and they’re seeing their numbers down, or they don’t know why, and hopefully they’re using their resources and pulling their levels and reaching out for help. And if they refuse to listen to the help, There’s nothing you can do. I think we continue to educate.

I think we continue to show the value of the technology and whatever it may be, I remember when we were first looking at Mark’s product at Campground Views, I’m like, eh, who’s going to look at a virtual tour, right? And what’s the blah, blah, blah. And I said, show me the statistics.

And once we showed the data, okay, it’s hard to argue data. And, we adopted them. And again, I think it’s just, it’s continuing to educate and the people that don’t want to, you continue to educate again until they kick you off your porch, off their porch, and then, their host closes that’s on them.

Brian Searl: All right. So let me answer the question from my perspective and maybe give some value to people here. We’ve talked a lot about understanding your audience, right? A little bit [00:43:00] here. And I think that’s one of the things, I don’t know if I ever showed this live. On a show, but let’s do an exercise of this real quick.

And this is what I, this is, I think something that people could do in 60 days to help them fundamentally long term. So this is just a map of Google. Somebody pick a state, Wyoming, North, pick a corner or the center you choose. 

Mark Koep: Yellowstone area top left 

Brian Searl: right here. All right. So let’s find, let’s just find Yellowstone’s easy.

Let’s find something hard. Cause we know what people are going to Yellowstone for. Let’s just go to near Casper. Okay. So if I’m near Casper and I’m just looking for. An RV park. What I mean here is I think that one of the fundamental things that you can do as an owner is understand what your target audience is from a search perspective.

And there’s a difference between understanding what your target audience is from a search perspective and your demographic. Those are two different things, right? So whether you like young or old or seasonal or transient or [00:44:00] whatever, families or singles or workers or whatever That’s important and you need to do that, but right now I’m just talking about search.

So if I’m looking at Casper, Wyoming, and here are the RV parks that are in the area I want to understand if I’m, Casper East RV Park and Campground or I’m Rivers Edge RV and Cabin Resorts or one of these properties, and I’m trying to do my marketing and this kind of goes to anybody anywhere who’s doing the same thing in any area, which is why I can randomly pick this with confidence, right?

And even Casper is. This is a crazy thing. Let’s say like you’re up here. Let’s say, can we, is there an RV park up here? Yeah, there we go. All right. So let’s say you’re out here trying to figure this out, right? So your Powder River Campground, maybe they’re watching the show. It looks nice actually.

So Powder River Campground is trying to figure out, what is my target audience? How do I get more people in here from a search SEO Google Ads perspective, right? I need to understand why people forget about Powder River. Forget about whether people know I exist or don’t know I exist. Why are they coming to the Casey [00:45:00] area and wanting to go camping already?

And so your first subset is like you use a tool and there are a lot of publicly available ones too, right? But we use HRFs, which is expensive, look at Casey campground. And understand how many people are Google searching this. Very few in that case, right? So then do a variation of it. Let’s do KCRV Park and look at that.

So here’s KC Wyoming, and these are 10 searches. A month, not a lot, right? So then, and this is why I picked Casey specifically. So then go out and look at what else is in the area that might be driving people. So this river is probably not that big. So I’m driving out and maybe I’m, the highway is there, but that’s usually not that searched well.

And so I’m just going out and I’m looking at the other towns around me, whether that’s Sussex or Mayoworth, or maybe there’s a state park or a national park, or even Antelope Hills. Again, you could go back to Casper. If somebody wants a Casper RV park, they probably want to stay near Casper. [00:46:00] But are they going somewhere?

Maybe between Casper and Buffalo? And just continue to do those search exercises with RV park, camping, campground, cabin rentals, until you figure out what is the one where I can get to that’s 200 plus in monthly search volume. And that’s your target audience in search. And that may be not necessarily be your demographic or the people you want in your campground, but those are the people who are already looking to stay in your city or to come to a national park or a museum or an event or a festival or a river or fishing or whatever.

That’s who you need to go after immediately with SEO. And I think that’s something that people can do really quickly, not necessarily SEO, but understand that kind of search. 

Mark Koep: I completely agree with you, Brian. This is the basics of marketing an RV park. The cool thing about our industry is the reason people RV is they’re going somewhere, whatever the reason is they’re going there.

And as you just pointed out, understand that reason that they’re coming to your area and then put up some ads to target folks. [00:47:00] That are searching for that. It’s the lowest hanging fruit you have because they’re actively looking for an RV part. I call it pull marketing, like push marketing. I call is when you’re pushing messages out, like on Facebook ads, come look at my RV part.

You’re hitting people who aren’t interested. They’re shopping for something else. This is you’re pulling people in who are actively looking for it. So I completely agree with you, Brian. Good presentation. 

Brian Searl: Yeah. Hopefully that helps. Again, I think the data is very clearly there. We have data and I don’t, I think most people don’t even understand.

We have data of how many people are searching what keywords on Google. But that’s for sure just, I think, a fundamental that you can pull off. So that was my little contribution to the conversation. But what else do we want to talk about guys? Jeff, do you have any thoughts on I know we’ve talked a lot about marketing, but if I’m somebody that’s being consulted by Camp Strategy, which is Jeff’s company, by the way, for those who don’t know Jeff and Greg’s company.

But what are some things I can do that aren’t marketing related in the next 60 days? 

Jeff Hoffman: To attract business within the next 60 days without 

Brian Searl: Because it’s mostly marketing, right? But 

Jeff Hoffman: Yeah, 

Brian Searl: maybe if I [00:48:00] can’t change it in 60 days, what reports should I be looking at? What things should I be analyzing?

What ways can I set myself up for Success in the future. 

Jeff Hoffman: And I think what you guys were somewhat talking about before I got on what I’m finding is that the reservation window has shrunk where right after COVID or during it was going out almost 90 days. It’s now back to about 14 days on the majority of bookings.

If I’m looking at my reservation window now if I was used to the old days, I’d probably be freaking out a little bit because, I’m not booked out 40 days in advance anymore. I’m booked out two weeks in advance even with the solar eclipse that’s going on right now, we’ve had a lot of people that were waiting to see what the weather is.

And finally they gave us that we may be clear, so we are booking like crazy [00:49:00] today. And that’s what I look at is, you’re going to have to start taking a look at that one week, two week, and 45 day window to see how you’re booking. Don’t You know, don’t start getting too excited about upping everything as far as marketing and other materials because you’re looking out 60 days and you’re not booked.

It’s just that believe that the industry has changed. Our customer has changed a little bit and they’re not booking as far out. And that’s just my take. I don’t know if that’s correct. Scott, you probably know that better than I do. It is something 

Scott Bahr: we’ve been tracking both quantitatively and qualitatively, just in the interviews that we’ve done.

Yeah we’re seeing whether it, people are booking their, the big destinations those types of things in advance still, but they’re taking a wait and see approach, especially after last year, weather stuff. There’s a [00:50:00] substantial group of people who are waiting longer.

There’s also a lot of people who want more spontaneous travel. It’s just part of how They used to travel and they want to do that again. We’re going to see a little bit more of that. And I agree with you. I don’t think people should panic. I think the bookings will come in in general, but I also would take advantage of and consider the reasons why people are shortening and maybe figure out whether it’s messaging, how you approach people, whatever, based on that.

I like Jeff, your statement about the weather, letting people know. It’s Hey, the weather looks great. Come on in. Or, we’re, that, that type of thing, 

Brian Searl: Weather looks bad. You just had a problem with your email service and it didn’t get sent. Let’s say we have 

Scott Bahr: this great indoor area and we’re going to have things to do inside.

But anyway, yeah, I would take advantage of it the best you 

Brian Searl: can. But I agree with all of that. I think it’s just, it’s a very careful, we need to be blunt to people and say Yes, I’m not worried about the booking window. Yes, I’m not worried about the industry. Yes, you shouldn’t panic, but also if you’re not doing any marketing.[00:51:00] 

Don’t just wait for a shorter booking window and think it’s going to come like it has the last few years. Oh, 

Jeff Hoffman: a hundred percent. I hope nobody took my answer to mean that. 

Brian Searl: No, I don’t think so. I was just, okay, 

Jeff Hoffman: no, you’re always marketing. 

Brian Searl: Yeah. Marketing and marketing efficiently, but you have to figure out your target audience too.

You can’t just boost Facebook posts to random. 10, 000 people and it’s the same thing as the email list, right? I never clarified with that, like email lists work, but you need to segment your email list and understand who you’re emailing. If you’re a, if you’re a, we’ll pick on Wyoming, right? If you’re a Wyoming park in the center of that state or all the way over by Casper, honestly, they’re driving across Wyoming to get to the Tetons or to Yellowstone, right?

Those people who stayed with you last year or two years or three years or six years ago have already seen the Tetons in Yellowstone and you can offer them a discount, but they’re probably in Texas or Florida or Virginia [00:52:00] and they’re not coming across the country again for 15 percent off your nightly rate.

So you also have to understand that, a couple people might, but, so understand the intent and the behavior behind why people are coming to your park and how you get that to, in addition to your target audience, I think 

Mark Koep: is important. The trick on all this stuff is it takes effort. It takes actually committed effort with a goal in mind.

And that’s, going back to the question about why isn’t, why doesn’t this happen? If I’m making money and I’ve got guests and I’ve got bookings and I’m covering my mortgage and I’m making a little bit on the side and I don’t need to do anything the next step is, hey, you actually have to work and you have to plan and process if that’s the next leap.

That’s a leap for some folks. So the trick is, and I think this show speaks to people who are like, Hey Mark, I’m here to do that leap. So I think, first off, Brian, that presentation was great. I thought this show has been very valuable to give folks tips. The next step is actually putting it into practice and simply setting up that system where you make a change, you [00:53:00] measure it.

You see how it worked and then you refine it and go forward. And if you can start doing that wheel, like Mike, Brian, I think you agree with me as we both know Mike’s pretty much since he got in this industry to watch him run and go. And as fast as he’s gone, look at where he’s taken his parks and his business by simply doing those incremental steps.

That are necessary to go from point A to point B. So it’s the effort that’s required.

Brian Searl: All right. What else we got to talk about? We’ve got three minutes. Anybody have any final thoughts? 

Mike Harrison: I have to hop off. I got another 12 o’clock, but thank you. Everybody. Happy April. Happy spring. Hope your snow melts fast, Scott. 

Scott Bahr: Thank you, Mike. 

Brian Searl: Thanks, Mike. 

Scott Bahr: It’s good to see you, Mike. 

Brian Searl: Let’s briefly go around the room, because we haven’t done it in a minute, to Jeff.

You’re a new recurring guest for us, week one. Super excited to have you here going forward. Tell us briefly about what you do with Camp Strategy. 

Jeff Hoffman: Camp Strategy was a company that Greg and I started. We are in the business of trying to work [00:54:00] with. Pretty much everybody, but we’d like to focus on some of the people that we were talking about, the campgrounds that are struggling and might not have to struggle if they can be taught a different way to do business and to learn how to effectively market their campgrounds, how to control their expenses and do revenue management with their parks.

Most of them can be profitable, but they have to change. To make themselves profitable. You can’t do what you’ve always done. If you’re not making money, you got to change something. And that’s what we try to do is be an agent of change. 

Brian Searl: Yeah. It goes back to that whole change thing. And I’m going to butcher this, but I watched if a fascinating YouTube video had nothing to do with the campground industry, as Tom Bilio, I think, if it has ever heard of this guy Yeah, so I watched, I was watching one of his videos and one of the quotes he was saying, and they’re crazy, like two, two, three hour [00:55:00] long podcast videos, but one of the nuggets I’m trying to remember in there, and again, I’m going to butcher it.

Was something about, they did a study of people who don’t like change, generally speaking, right? Like people in general, nobody likes to change for the most part, except me. I’m weird. Apparently I must’ve been dropped on my head. That’s probably what this bump is for. I should talk to my mom anyway. But most people don’t like change.

And so they, I can’t remember what they were talking about, but they were talking about something to do with speculating on the future of AI and how AI could make better decisions for like politicians and our health and things. If it was trained correctly. Because it doesn’t have that external third party.

And again, regardless of whether you’re all in on AI, that’s not the point. But the point was, is they were talking about that and they did some kind of a study. And again, I, this is months ago that I watched this stuff, right? But the idea behind it was they did a study on people and they said, they haven’t, they had all kinds of data that proved that you could be healthier.

You could have more money, you could have more freedom. You could have more time to do what you wanted to [00:56:00] do. All you have to do is give up this ability to choose this certain thing, the choice, to let the AI kind of control it for you. And 95 percent of people were like, nope, we would rather have less money and less freedom and less creativity because we have to have our choice.

And I thought that was fascinating. I don’t know if I would necessarily do that or give up that, but it’s very interesting how resistant people are to losing control and to change in general. I thought that loosely really is what we were talking about, but maybe if it didn’t, you can tell me no, 

Mark Koep: I got another call. 

Brian Searl: Yeah, thanks Mark. I appreciate it. So yeah, we’ll we’ll, but I really appreciate you guys. Any final thoughts, Scott, Jeff, before we go. 

Scott Bahr: Just to tell you, Brian, yes you are in the minority. About 15 percent of the population in general would be considered people who embrace change readily.

They’re the kind of, more of the risk taker types and so on. We’ve actually done this in the travel tourism industry, so people those, The [00:57:00] Explorers, we call them, that tend to branch out a lot more. So you’re probably in that 

Brian Searl: 15%. I don’t know if that’s necessarily a good thing, but It depends 

Scott Bahr: on your perspective.

It depends on what you’re doing. It’s you know 

Brian Searl: All right, guys. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. 

Scott Bahr: for having me. 

Brian Searl: Thanks for joining us on another episode of MC Fireside Chats. We’ll see you next week for a glamping focused episode. Take care, guys. See ya. 

Jeff Hoffman: Alright, Bye bye. 

for joining us for this episode of MC Fireside Chats with your host Brian Searl.

Have a suggestion for a show idea? Want your campground or company in a future episode? Email us at hello at moderncampground. com. Get your daily dose of news from moderncampground. com and be sure to join us next week for more insights into the fascinating world of outdoor [00:58:00] hospitality.