MC Fireside Chats – April 2nd, 2025

Brian Searl: Welcome everybody to Another episode of MC Fireside Chats. My name’s Brian Searl with Insider Perks. Super excited to be back here with you for another data Insights analysis episode, part of our new themes in 2025. We’re gonna be talking about all kinds of things, data and insights. I guess that really didn’t need an explanation, did it, Scott?

It wasn’t like a synergy reportee type word that needed to find no, 

Scott Bahr: Don’t say that. 

Brian Searl: I don’t know. I guess I, I serve no purpose here now that the shows are labeled. I don’t even need to introduce myself or what we’re gonna talk about, but super excited to be here with with a couple of our recurring guests.

We’re missing a couple people. I think they’re at the California show or at other commitments. But we have, Simon Neal here from Camp Map. He’s gonna go over some interesting data in a second that he shared with us about the European market that I think Scott will agree, mirrors closely some of the behavior we’ve seen in United States and Canadian sentiment as well, like their behaviors in like lodging and accommodations and stuff like that.

Then we got two special guests. We have Emily from CONY, who I just saw yesterday. Emily 

Emily Simmons: That’s right. 

Brian Searl: Isn’t once a week enough for you? How many times do you wanna see me? So Emily’s here, she’s gonna talk about CONY a little bit. And then Michael Moore’s here from, is it Michael Moore from TACO?

Is it Michael Moore from AGS? Is it Michael Moore from, 

Michael Moore: it’s all of the above chair 

Brian Searl: of Aren’t you chair of CAMP now too or something? 

Michael Moore: I am president of CAMP. Yeah. And then TACO and AGS and I can probably find a couple more, but I don’t know if you want to hear ’em. 

Brian Searl: Do you feel like, the only question I have for you immediately is, do you feel like you should update your jersey behind you on the wall given the status of that player now?

Like you have somebody else you can root for right now? That’s good. 

Michael Moore: Huh? 

Brian Searl: You could put Victor’s jersey up there, right? 

Michael Moore: I could, but it probably cost 10 times as much. So I’ll wait. I’ll wait to buy on the dip and then I’ll replace it. 

Brian Searl: All ’cause then it inflates over time. We know we’ve all learned about inflation enough over the last year.

We know that, so 

Michael Moore: I know that’s my new investment strategy is just memorabilia. ’cause it’ll never go down, ever. 

Brian Searl: So that’s true. That’s a good point. Okay, so let’s let’s briefly, Michael just introduce you and TACO, Emily introduce you and CONY. And then we will, I wanna dive into this European data and start the show.

We’re not gonna spend the whole show on that data, but ’cause I want to definitely get to questions about CONY and TACO and all the things you’re doing, Michael. But briefly introduce yourself. Go ahead. 

Michael Moore: Sure. Yeah and thanks for having us on again, Brian. I know for me, like you said.

Probably the most thing that a lot of people know me for is with the Texas Association of Campground Owners, or as we affectionately refer to it as TACO. We are the largest state campground association in the country. We’ve got I think it’s close to 450 member campgrounds now.

And we do lobbying work, legislative work legal work for member campgrounds. We do marketing, we do we have several discount and savings programs now more than we ever have for members. Yeah, so we, it’s a pretty diverse array of benefits. I like to think as far as what TACO does, and then yeah, on the AGS side, we, primarily market and produce guest guides for campgrounds all over the country. All 50 states? Not Hawaii not yet anyway, but one day maybe. We’ll get there. 

Brian Searl: We just talked about The Bahamas, man. Like, why are you in Hawaii? 

Michael Moore: No, I’m trying to get to Hawaii but it’s, 

Brian Searl: But wouldn’t you raise your hand and be like, yes, I will go onsite and design your map.

Michael Moore: Oh, believe me, and my sales reps too. I have a list a mile long of folks that would love to go 

there. 

Brian Searl: You’re at the top you’re the Hawaii guy. 

Michael Moore: Right. 

Brian Searl: Yeah. 

Michael Moore: So yeah, we market and produce, close to a thousand maps for campgrounds around the country, and then along with other printing and collateral and digital marketing for those folks.

And then yeah, on a smaller degree. I’ve, I was recently elected president of CAMP of which Emily is a member. We are an organization of the different state campground association, state and regional, I should say. And we get together and share information and share notes and really just try to help each other grow our own associations by learning from each other.

I think that’s the kind of Reader’s Digest version of all three of those. 

Brian Searl: Awesome. We’ll dive into all three of those a little bit later. ’cause I want our audience to understand them. For now, my only question for you as I tossed to Emily is obviously in New York. Do you feel like Emily can get to 450 campgrounds or does she need a bigger state, like you have, is an unfair advantage or, 

Michael Moore: And I, this is something I know that we have talked about at camp several times.

So absolutely every state is, so for Texas, for example because of, I would say the relative lacks of regulation, at least compared to other states, including Emily’s it’s still a lot easier to build and expand and buy here as opposed to other states where you’re either, you’re locked in by zoning and other laws that make it difficult or just geography, if you’re landlocked especially if you’re a smaller geographic state, there’s not a lot of room to go, even if you wanted to.

It’s, no two states are alike, I guess would be my answer to that. So 

Brian Searl: I think the only way to find out, like we should have an executive of the year award, but the only way to find out who deserves that from the whole camp organization would be to rotate executive directors every three months and see if you can each mirror the success of each other given the different size of states and landlocked and all the things you just mentioned.

Michael Moore: Yeah I’ll add that to the agenda for our June meeting. So 

Brian Searl: Scott, I think he’s being sarcastic with me, could you stop me please. Okay. Thank you Michael. Emily, please introduce yourself. 

Emily Simmons : Yes. Hi. Thank you so much for the invitation to be here. Emily Simmons. I’m just coming up on my two year anniversary as the President of CONY.

So this has been a really exciting time for us. I don’t wear quite as many hats as Michael does, but our association does offer a very similar structure of benefits for our members. Advocacy education as both you, Brian and Scott. Part of yesterday, we just launched our very first virtual conference which by all accounts that we’re hearing today was a success.

So that was something different based on feedback that we were able to launch yesterday. So the cost savings programs are a big piece of what we offer to our members and really just keeping them up to date with data like Scott and Simon provide and how we can help them move forward.

Not quite 450 members we’re inching our way towards 200 but we’re, really excited to be here today. 

Brian Searl: What I mean, once Canada becomes a 51st state, then you’ll have a lot more pool to 

Emily Simmons : at least right on that border. That’s right. Yeah. 

Brian Searl: So you’re right there. Like Texas is at a disadvantage of that case.

They’re not gonna jumble over all those other states, right? 

Michael Moore: Yeah, but we’ll just annex Mexico at that point and then it’ll be even again, so. 

Brian Searl: Maybe, but they’re mostly glamping. They’re mostly glamping down there, don’t they? Yeah, 

Michael Moore: it’s true. Yeah. 

Brian Searl: Anyway, okay. So let’s dive into some trends and insights.

I think I wanna start with Simon, who was generous enough to share a presentation with us. And Simon, briefly introduce yourself when I’m done talking and run my mouth for a second here. And tell us about Camp Map, but who’s generous enough to share us with a presentation from one of the largest marketplaces in Europe.

And I know you’re gonna introduce them in a second. But is that an accurate statement? 

Simon Neal: Yeah, that’s true. 

Brian Searl: Okay. And it was fascinating data to see some of the trends that are obviously happening in Europe, but also how they mirror some of our own. And so I think that we’ll have a good back and forth discussion with Scott Barr, some of the data he’s collected with from the United States, and certainly like Michael and Emily, you’re more than willing to jump in and join the conversation too.

So do you wanna, oh, you start Simon, do you wanna introduce it and then share your screen or however you want to handle this? 

Simon Neal: Yeah, sure. I’ll just jump in and share the screen. 

Brian Searl: I think you can do it from the, from there, can’t you? 

Simon Neal: Yeah. Let me know if you can see it. 

Brian Searl: I think you have to go you’ll have to go let it into the room, Jessica. So hover, yeah, hover over their faces in the top right. And then you have to let his screen share into the room. It’s Simon Neal, the one that’s grayed out right there underneath.

Underneath that one. Yep. Okay. Cool. There we go. 

Simon Neal: There you go. Okay, great. So this was yeah, a webinar that I watched last week. Really interesting. So I thought I’d share a bit of that data with you guys here. So to be clear, first the data source, so you know where this is coming from and it’s probably attributed.

So this comes from PIN Camp and this is one of the largest marketplaces in Europe for outdoor hospitality. PinCamp.com, and it was print presented by Uwe Frers, who is the CEO. So PIN Camp has been around for that long, it’s maybe four or five years old, but before that it was a printed publication marketing platform for campsites in Europe.

So it’s been around for a long time, but recently gone fully digital. And since they’ve done that, they’ve been really good at capturing all sorts of data about booking trends, different campgrounds. So I think overall they’ve got three and a half thousand campgrounds listed on their platform, which is a lot.

It’s a big chunk of the European market and they primarily serve the German, Swiss, and Netherlands channel. So that’s where most of their traffics comes from. But they’re booking campgrounds all over Europe. So it’s really good data source. And I’ll take you through some of the interesting points that I picked up.

So the first one was just a big generic start, which I think is really interesting, which is online bookings per edge. So we all know there’s a big transition now to move away from phone booking walk-ins to online bookings. And this is, really powerful statistic that, obviously the younger generation, it’s above 70% middle generation, 65%, but then even, 50, 70 year olds, which is actually a massive market segment in Europe.

Retired couples. Kids have left the home traveling around in RVs. It’s really strong market there. It’s 53% and it’s only really the over 70’s who don’t book, in the majority online at the moment. Such, a pretty powerful statistic and obviously a big signal for everybody to make sure you’re as digital as possible.

Brian Searl: Do you have that, any data on that, Scott, that mirrors, I’m assuming like logically it would tell you that’s the same, but 

Scott Bahr: It follows the same trends. Definitely. Here in our, some of our research, it’s been a little bit higher in terms of the preference for online.

 But as in the older age groups, those definitely mirror what we see. 

Brian Searl: Okay. Sorry, go ahead Simon. 

Simon Neal: Okay. So the next one is moving towards, online booking to booking behavior. So this is not specifically online, this is just in general. And it’s comparing last year, which was a great year pretty much for everybody.

And then what’s happening so far this year? So that’s looking at bookings that have come in from like November, December, January, February time. And what are the sort of trends so was asked a very simple question, is there a change in your booking behavior from your main camping holiday due to rising prices?

So this is, families going on vacation for, 1, 2, 3 weeks in the summer. This is the kind of bookings we’re looking at. So from last year and this year, it’s pretty similar that people went, same destination, same length of stay. There’s a bit of a decrease but not huge. So generally people are getting what they want.

The next one is, we got the same destination but slightly shorter length of stay. So that’s pretty unchanged as well. And then the other two at the bottom, a cheaper destination, shorter length of stay decision not to make camping, holiday because of pricing. It’s the same.

And the whole kind of push behind this slide, I didn’t introduce it properly, was that there’s been quite a lot of price increase in Europe over the last few years. 

Brian Searl: Over here too. Yeah. 

Simon Neal: Yes. It’s averaging like 6%, 7% per year and some specific markets actually been much higher than that. What’s the effect on that in people and generally, 2024 was pretty good, but it was, we see in 2025 now, there’s quite a big change that actually there’s a big chunk of the market that is looking for cheaper destination but a unusual length of stay.

It’s a mix between these two. That, 

Brian Searl: so this is interesting. Sorry, go ahead. Please finish and I’ll, 

Simon Neal: it was, so if they get the same destination. They’re gonna stay a bit longer or shorter, sorry. Otherwise they’re gonna go for the same length of stay, but they’re gonna look for a cheaper rate. So that’s the kind of big mover here.

Brian Searl: So this is interesting to me, Scott, because this, I think, mirrors a lot of the data that we’ve been looking at and you certainly have more than I do, but if we do quick hits real quick, like the usual length of stay destination is wanted. I think that’s rightfully declining year over year.

I think that’s what we’ve seen a little bit and I’ll let you touch on those specifics in a second. But shorter length of stay, we’ve talked about that last year with the decline in camper nights and people just taking shorter vacations. The cheaper destination I think is self-explanatory as prices rise, but it’s really interesting how that maybe correlates, and I’ll let you give your thoughts on it to the, what we were doing last year with the research of like best RV resort and all that kind of stuff.

So like you’re looking at best now maybe, does that change or does that flip? That’s interesting. And then Michael or Emily, if you guys wanna weigh in, I’d love to hear your thoughts on the, like how the price increases that we’ve seen in the industry as Simon touched on, like specific to the cost of RV sites, has increased and potentially is impacting these behaviors or decisions in the United States.

Because I know, like Michael, for example, and I don’t know as much about the development in New York, I think it’s just less, but with all the development that’s been happening in Texas and all the inventory and all the luxury, like prices have risen pretty dramatically. 

Michael Moore: Yeah. I was gonna say, because of the amount of new parks and new sites coming online here, and they’re building nice parks.

You’re absolutely right. The price point is going up, but what we’re finding is people are paying that right? Meaning they, they are very happy to pay a little extra if they’re gonna be there anyway for a newer park, nicer park, et cetera. Or what they’re going for when they stay there, whether it’s, they like the safety aspect. They like the local proximity to certain things or whatever. So yeah, I could absolutely see that. 

Brian Searl: Which is what we saw last year, right? I think that’s the, that’s a confirmation of what we, of the best, right? We wanna see the best, we wanna do the best or willing to spend we might not be going on as many vacations and staying as long, but we’re willing to take a little bit of that savings and make sure we’re staying at the best.

Is that accurate? So the question is will that continue into 2025? What do you think, Scott? 

Scott Bahr: I would say if we continue on this trajectory, it probably will. It you’re gonna see some tightening. How’s that? I think that yeah, the people are at least gonna shorten their stays unless they can find, a better price point.

They, yeah the bottom line is people want, really want to go to the places they want to visit. They, and they’re gonna try as best as they can to figure out how to do that. And a lot of times it’s decreasing some costs, decreasing how much you spend on food and entertainment when you’re somewhere there’s, those kinds of adjustments are made quite a bit.

But if, as most travelers do, you probably, if you think of your own situation, you would most likely if you wanna go visit the place and sign in your plans, you really want to go there. But again, you may stay, may not stay quite as long. 

Brian Searl: Or like where you stay, right? Like it might be a different campground in that area.

You might stay at a, let’s just, the easy example is just to pick on KOA for a second with Journey, holiday and resort instead of trying to explain it. But you might stay at a KOA holiday instead of a KOA resort as an example. 

Scott Bahr: Correct, right. 

Emily Simmons : And I think one of the things that we’re hearing too, in addition to sometimes shortening the stay is consolidating.

And what I mean by that is families are staying together maybe in one RV versus an RV and renting a cabin. So they’re still there, they’re still going. But they’re bunking up together versus multiple types of stay. 

Brian Searl: Okay. Anything else you wanna share on that slide, Scott? Or any thoughts you have?

Scott Bahr: No, I think that’s, again, what people make adjustments. They still wanna travel and they just make adjustments. 

Brian Searl: For sure. 

Michael Moore: And just one more thing too that I’ve, we’ve noticed is the booking window has gotten way smaller, in recent times than it was before.

And and whether that’s people just unsure of if they’re gonna have the money or they wanna spend the money, until the last minute or whatever the reason. But that’s absolutely factoring into it too. And for the park owners, as we know it makes it a little less certain, how certain holidays or seasons are gonna look.

But that’s the reality is as folks are waiting a lot later than they used to have booked that vacation. 

Yeah. I think that’s two things. And I think there is a slide later in this deck that talks about uncertainty from a European perspective that kind of mirrors what you’re talking about.

And Scott and I have talked about this a little bit, primarily during presidential elections, but also just with the multitude of changes that are happening right now in the United States. Would PCUA to say that regardless of what side you’re on, it doesn’t matter. Just, it’s a lot of change.

It’s coming at people, and so I think that contributes to uncertainty too, is what, Scott would concur with. Okay. Scott, you’re not dying, are you? 

Scott Bahr: I am not. 

Brian Searl: Okay, good. We have another show later in, like in an hour, so I just wanna make sure you’re around for that. Okay. 

Scott Bahr: If I do, you’ll have an hour to find a replacement, so. 

Brian Searl: Thank you.

That’s nice that you gave me that grace period. I appreciate that. But the uncertainty yeah. Is an interesting thing. Like we’ve had that conversation with some of our clients on the marketing side. I’m sure you’ve, from AGS, your side, Michael too. You’ve had these conversations with marketing as well.

I think it’s just, it’s the uncertainty. It’s the, I don’t know what the economy is gonna do. We’ve seen consumer sentiment, the metric decline we’ve seen, we don’t wanna dive into all that stuff. But I think it’s an uncertainty of I’m not quite sure if I’m gonna have a job in two months or six months, or eight months, probably will, but, so I might as well just wait a little bit and make sure, and then maybe I’ll book in June with that shorter booking window.

Michael Moore: Yeah, no I could, I completely agree. And that’s what I’ve been discussing with folks too, is, and you touched on it before, whenever there’s an election, let’s say the uncertainty happens before, and then there’s a result, and then no matter what side wins, okay, this is the path that it will probably go down whether agreed with it or voted for it or not this time around because it seems like there’s something different happening daily that Yeah it’s majorly uncertain and that uncertainty is extending into sort of overtime, if you will post-election, post inauguration, whatever.

And yeah it’s the uncertainty that makes people tense up, and hold onto their wallet a little tighter than they used to because yeah. Whether it’s job numbers, is this gonna cost more in a couple months or is it gonna cost more to go here? Those are all things that, before might have seemed like you knew the answer a couple months out, but now not so much.

Brian Searl: Yeah. And so I think it’s important to say too that this is not a political discussion we’re having, this is just, it doesn’t matter who you voted for or who you didn’t vote for, or I’m in a totally different country. But this is more of like just change period of any kind. And it is coming in rapid fire succession and whether you like it or don’t like it, it’s still change that causes uncertainty.

Okay. Are we ready to go on? Sorry Simon, you’re like been paused in this slide forever. 

Simon Neal: No worries. It’s a good discussion. Okay, so this is just digging a bit deeper to the real stats and the trends. Yellow line 2023/2024 and blue line, 2024/2025. So this is showing, clear and again, it’s early in the season in terms of booking season, but reduced, clear, reduced length of stay by 5% or 0.4 nights per booking.

So it’s definitely, bookings are still good, but the length of stay is definitely less than it was last year. A significant trend there. Okay. Next slide. And again, this is basically revenue per booking. And this is pretty much a reflection of the reduced length of stay. So the revenue, of course, if you stay less, the revenue goes down, which means you need more bookings to make up for that.

So really. Quite specific trends happening there. And then, the next slide, okay, I’ll come to this later, but I don’t know if you wanna discuss on this specifically. Do you see the same thing or not? Or should we move on to the next one?

Brian Searl: I don’t know. I don’t know that we have enough data on that, like Camp Spot or Newbook or somebody like that would be a good person to shed some light onto this.

So I, I think what you’re saying is probably more true than anything else is the length of stay is impacting this. And for the people who can’t I can’t calculate this in real time, this is basically if you add, what about 50 bucks to each of these numbers just is roughly what an American dollar equivalent would be.

Maybe $50 to $75, depending on the exchange rate. Just for clarity for Americans looking at this or I’m not even gonna try to figure out Canadian dollars, but. 

Simon Neal: It’s close enough to be one-on-one. Just think of it like that. 

Brian Searl: Yeah, it’s pretty close. Yeah, it’s pretty close. It’s like a dollar eight or something. Dollar six to a dollar. But yeah, like I don’t think you, do you have anything like this, Scott, that you’ve noticed or have a 

Scott Bahr: No we don’t typically track this ’cause it’s in one of those objective measures that comes from like the, the bookings and such. One of the things we track is spend that they people how much money people spend in local areas and we’ve, over the years we’ve seen that even sometimes their length of stay may shorten, but the amount they spend on expenses other than accommodations tends to increase.

Brian Searl: Okay. That’s interesting. Is it like one-to-one or is 

Scott Bahr: It’s not one-to-one, but it it’s noticeable. So you, so what you have are people say that they’re gonna reduce the amount they spend in local areas, but if they reduce their stay, they spend more. So there’s a bit of a contrast there. 

Brian Searl: But maybe more psychological to the, that goes back to something similar, like the best luxury RV resorts.

Like I just wanna enhance my shorter experience. 

Scott Bahr: Yeah, exactly. It’s perceived that it’s oh, we’re staying one last night. Oh, okay, let’s. 

Brian Searl: Now we have money we can spend extra. Yeah. 

Scott Bahr: Shorter stake. 

Brian Searl: Even though you’re just totally defeated your own argument with saving money, but we, that’s another show.

Go ahead. Go ahead Simon. 

Simon Neal: Okay, so the next one is is pretty interesting. On the left hand side, so this is booking revenue in total. So left hand side, there’s actual growth from last year. So although people are spending less, there’s more bookings and there’s good growth, which is solid. What’s really quite interesting, and this is very specifically for lots of campgrounds over here pitches is sites like campsites for you guys, mobile homes would be your cabin, your glamping stuff.

So there’s been huge investment the last few years on building more cabins, more glamping and campgrounds that kind of bring in that new market segment. Maybe came from hotels but actually that’s really started to shrink and the growth in RVs and tent sites has really come above the growth in cabins, glamping for the first time.

So it’s a big market change there. And I think a lot of that can, sorry. 

Brian Searl: Go ahead. Finish and then I ask my question. 

Simon Neal: No, you go ahead. I was just gonna. 

Brian Searl: I was just gonna say do you think that’s a result of the tightness or closeness of the European market given so many places and opportunities that you can do within, like just say a two hour radius versus two hours in the United States might not even take you to the next state?

Simon Neal: Not sure. I think, like I said, prices going up. If you wanna stay in a cabin mobile home, it’s very expensive. And then the difference between doing that in a hotel is very close. So I think you have much less loyalty to your customer base who would typically choose the cabin or the glamping versus somebody who owns an RV that they paid a hundred thousand dollars for.

If they have that, they’re gonna use it. So I think there’s been a bit of a loss in the market over here of people who were there last year or the year before who’ve now maybe retreated or gone back to hotels or are doing something different. 

Brian Searl: I don’t know if you know the answer to this, and I want to hear Scott’s thought on this just for a second.

From that just perspective of, do you think that’s the same thing and Michael or Emily too. But for that loyalty piece of it, I had a good question and tip of my tongue and now I thought about, and now I missed it for that loyalty piece of it though. Are you, oh, that’s what I was gonna ask. I don’t know if you know this information Simon, or have a sense of it, but is there a sense of like how we can keep more people loyal, like to cabin rentals into glamping, inside of campgrounds?

Because there’s always the argument of I’m outdoors and there’s no hallway and no elevator and no neighbors. And so it’s be, it’s obviously, I think it’s better to be connected to nature, that’s opinion thing, right? But have you seen any operators try to differentiate themselves that way? 

Simon Neal: I think there’s a great value proposition for it.

I think the trend over here, particularly with lots of our customers, they just weren’t really aggressive on the pricing. 

Brian Searl: Okay. 

Simon Neal: And I think that is the main reason people said, okay, that’s too much. And they’ve gone back to other options. 

Brian Searl: So they shot themselves in the foot, but that also says that maybe they can recoup that audience by correcting their prices.

Simon Neal: Yeah, I would say so. I think it’s a lesson learned that they’ve gone up really aggressively and then last year was a bit flat, and this year it’s definitely coming down. So they just need to react to that. 

Brian Searl: Yeah. I’ve noticed that like even two years ago or what, maybe Yes. Two years ago I went to Iceland and it was like $950 for a night in a glamping cottage.

I’m just not I can’t afford that. I could, but it just doesn’t make sense for me. Scott, what do you think? 

Scott Bahr: Yeah the, the whole idea of, the structure of the accommodations that, you know, and you mentioned, the building of the loyalty within that group.

There, there are some groups who are very loyal to it. You have people who, you know, again, that leisure traveler who do, who isn’t really into the outdoors. They are definitely focused on that. And they, once the, and also the convenience people, the so there’s a lot you can build on with that.

That part of it. However, there just appears to be some momentum ever so slight of people desiring the, a little bit more of an outdoorsy experience. And as the glamping market matures, I feel like that will happen more. We’re in a reversed. Trend of what it used to be, where people would start off intense on the ground and, especially young people the, it’s not that like that anymore.

But one, one of the things we’ve observed, especially in a young person, is that they start off at a higher level of accommodations. With walled accommodations, all that. They’re more likely to seek something rustic versus if someone starts out really rustic, they seek something more a little bit more comfortable.

We’ll see how that all plays out. Again, we have a, a generation coming through who is much, much more likely to have started either staying at a campground in a, some kind of accommodation or glamping versus, just a short time ago when most people start off in tents. 

Brian Searl: And how do you scientifically define young people?

And before you answer that, remember that you don’t know anyone’s age on this show. 

Scott Bahr: Look at me. Geez. I can’t throw any stones. The, no when I say young, I say generally under 30, under 35. 

Brian Searl: Okay. 

Scott Bahr: That under 30 group is probably the most interesting. Such a transitional group. It’s a group that historically by the way, participates very consistently.

That’s why I don’t talk about generations all the time because the generations are a moving thing that, they just keep getting older and moving along. Like that under 30 group is one of the more interesting groups again, because, they’re becoming more independent.

They’re building their careers and their wealth and their families. It’s such a group in transition that’s the group you have to grab. And anyway, that’s my definition of who’s young. Someone who’s my son’s age and it doesn’t matter how old he gets is gonna be considered young.

So there you have it. 

Brian Searl: Do you feel like, last question for you, Scott, and then we’ll move on. Do you feel like as you look at the stat and you hear Simon’s thoughts and my thoughts too just on the potential people pricing themselves outta reach of a lot of consumers, do you feel like that’s happening in the United States too?

And is there a need for people to think about maybe not pulling a lever on it yet ’cause it’s still too early, but to have a, if this happens in May or June, I’m gonna do this. Because I think a lot of this is like you’re talking about the loyalty of the, or the disloyalty of the hotel guests who experience the outdoors and can go in and out, but could go either way.

But also as I start to think about what I talked about in Iceland, like this was a choice, two years ago between a $950 glamping tent. And a $350 hotel. Like things are really expensive in Iceland, to be clear. But but like it was a stark gap and I really wanted to stay in one of those glamping cabins.

I just couldn’t justify that huge of a difference in cost. 

Scott Bahr: My thought on that is if you wanna build a consistent, loyal clientele you have to be careful of pricing yourself out of the game. That for many people, many travelers, and just look across the spectrum of leisure travel that someone will take a luxury vacation like you and your millions going to Iceland and millions, $7,000 a night.

Brian Searl: There’s not many advertisers on this show.

Scott Bahr: But the for a lot of people, that’s a one off. That’s a, that can be a one-off for them. It can be a a once in a lifetime trip. It can be a once in every five years trip. That person who does it every year is a different demographic. A different economic category. So if, and that’s much more limited. The vast bulk of the population who participates in outdoor hospitality is middle income. And that person is not gonna spend a lot and they’re not gonna, and if they do, they’re is gonna for a couple nights, have an experience and they’re gonna move on the long-term growth.

And I agree, scenario planning I think is really important. Because there, there is the danger of doing that, I think it’s good to just have options for people, let them decide, but don’t put, and again, as an operator, you’d have to decide what you want, who do you want on site? If you want to attract just that upper middle income group of folks, then by all means have at it.

But a lot of people are willing to take less to be able to still stay and have an experience and be in the outdoors and do, have a campfire and make smores and all that. 

Brian Searl: Okay, let’s go Simon. We gotta get to, we’re not gonna, we might not get to all seven of Michael’s things. He does. 

Scott Bahr: I talk too much, that’s why. Sorry. 

Brian Searl: You talk too much? I talk too much. 

Scott Bahr: No, that’s true too. 

Brian Searl: Thank you. Alright, what’s next, Simon, on your slide? 

Simon Neal: That’s kind of it. There’s just a bit of a summary. And I think Michael came up with earlier as well that, there is a bit of last minute booking trend because of the uncertainty that’s going around.

So that’s definitely present in Europe as well. That’s been observed. So we’ve gotta see what the next couple of months happen for bookings. 

Brian Searl: Can I ask you just briefly, like what is your, what do you think is causing uncertainty in Europe? Because that’s, I think, different than what I think is causing it in the United States or Canada.

Simon Neal: Yeah, I mean for us it’s a lot about pricing in terms of, cost of living has gone way up. Political uncertainties everywhere. And people are just a bit wary. That’s it. I think they’re still gonna go on holiday unless some huge disaster kicks in, which is not lightly. They’re just sitting tight a bit, being a bit more cautious than usual. And it’s pretty much price focused, I would say. 

Brian Searl: Okay, thank you. Sorry. 

Simon Neal: So there’s that I talked about this already. The loyalty this is a really nice statistic. It’s a bit separate thing, but it’s nice to show that, the RV registrations in Germany, again, it’s pretty focused on German market, but it’s the biggest in Europe.

It’s enormous. They’ve had a really strong, solid growth. This 2023 on the far left is wrong. It should be 13. But over the years you had this massive peak in Covid that threw everything off. But then it’s actually come back to the trend. So there’s still a really strong growing trend, more RVs being registered, which is, the really loyal customers.

So overall the market is strong, it’s growing and it’s very resilient. It’s just there’s this little uncertainty blip happening at the moment and a bit of kind of price pressure as well. 

Brian Searl: So this is interesting Scott. You have opposite data here for registration, don’t you? 

Scott Bahr: Yeah. Registrations here are declining. 

Brian Searl: By, what was the number? Seven, six and a half. 7%? 

Scott Bahr: Yep. 

Brian Searl: Year over year. Okay. Sorry, go ahead Simon. 

Simon Neal: No, that’s it. That’s the last slide. 

Brian Searl: I’m glad you included that. Did I miss that in the email you sent over? 

Simon Neal: Yeah, I didn’t, I just put that as in last minute as a kind of extra bonus.

Brian Searl: Yeah, I like that. ’cause we’ve been talking about that on Outwired in the show before. Alright, Emily, Michael, you have anything to add before we move on and talk about you guys?

Emily Simmons : I, the one thought I had when we were talking about pricing out as far as glamping, I think the thing that we recommend to our members is the value proposition piece. That it’s not apples to a hotel necessarily. The hotel is an offering, a magic show and comedians and bands and group gatherings and pancake breakfasts and things.

I think it’s just important to really advertise what that value proposition is. 

Brian Searl: Yeah. Tell your story. Share what your experience is, your experiential hospitality. You’ve gotta, yeah, that’s what we’ve been preaching to clients all years. We think this market is gonna get tighter. I think the industry is just fine, but I don’t think there’s enough to fill up all the sites that, for example, have happened in Texas with Michael.

Am I frozen for you guys, or is that just me? 

Scott Bahr: Yes, you are. 

Emily Simmons: You are. 

Brian Searl: Cool. All right. 

Michael Moore: We can hear you though. 

Brian Searl: On my face. 

Emily Simmons: Yeah. 

Brian Searl: We’ll figure that out in a minute. But anyway you can go back to Emily or something. They’re not staring at my crazy, weird face. But I think that’s, something that like I expect the industry to be just fine, but there’s not enough people that I don’t think who are gonna go camping this year to fill up all those new builds in Texas.

Just pulling out one example. So I think the story that you tell of your experience and what makes you different is going to be the difference maker. And if you do that and do your marketing right, if you’re working with a good company like AGS or something like that, then you’ll be fine.

Michael Moore: And I think the thing I would probably add onto that too, Brian, is and you touched on it first, which is, if you are treating your customer well, like that’s the best marketing you can do first and foremost. Like I tell people, you could spend a million bucks on Google, but if you have a crap product, whatever it is, it doesn’t matter.

’cause you’re not gonna get any return from that. And but what I wanted to also say too was as far as the pricing goes I, the thing is with campground owners and the operators, they can’t really afford, even if they wanted to, to what I’ll call a just pricing or or go down in pricing, because what we’re, what, and we’ve, I’ve seen this with a ton of campground owners all over the country, not just Texas is revenue may be up compared to pre covid years, right?

So post 2019, but the margins as far as operating the campgrounds have explo the cost I should say have operating has exploded. So the margins have gone down. They’re not what they were pre covid. And so with the campgrounds, it’s not as, it is not as simple as saying, oh, we’ll just go back to pre covid level pricing and people will come back.

A lot of campgrounds they can’t afford to or don’t, aren’t able to, because the cost of operating has shot up so much. 

Brian Searl: Yeah. And that’s the other thing to keep in mind with inflation too. And Jessica, will it let you switch cameras on the board or no? Okay, cool. So it’s just the board.

So we’ll just keep me minimized for now, but you guys can hear me. That’s the other thing too, is I’m sorry, say your last comment again ’cause I was getting distracted by the board. 

Michael Moore: No, I was just saying that with campgrounds their, with the operators, their margins are not 

Brian Searl: Oh, the margin. Yeah. Yeah. 

Michael Moore: As good as they were maybe during the covid time, because again, the operating costs in every facet of it have just exploded. 

Brian Searl: Because of the same inflation that consumers are dealing with. The electricity is higher and the insurance is higher and everything else is higher. And because, and we don’t have time to talk about this on this show because people were very hesitant to raise their rates despite, all the money printing that went on and all the things like, you should have your rates like 30% higher than they were in 2021 at least.

Just to be the same price you were in 2021, but. That’s a whole other topic for conversation, so. 

Michael Moore: And yeah, and you said it it’s tricky to pinpoint it to a single kind of data point on what, what your pricing should be. What I do know is if you’re charging the same as you did last year, you’re doing it wrong.

I know that much, so 

Brian Searl: For sure. Absolutely. So Emily, tell us what, tell us a little bit about Fire Up Forum. How did it go without mentioning me or Scott, ’cause you already mentioned us. 

Emily Simmons : Great sessions though? Yeah. Fire Up Forum. Thanks. Thanks for the opportunity to mention it. It was really derived from member feedback that our members wanted to go to live events.

They wanna network, they wanna visit with our suppliers, they want the education piece of it. But as we’re talking here about cost and price, sometimes that’s prohibitive to go somewhere across the state, four or five hours away for three nights in a hotel, plus all of the things that a company, the cost of travel.

Same thing with some of our exhibitors. A lot of our campground owners have wear multiple hats. Again, not as many as Michael, but enough that they’re busy doing other jobs. So this was really an initiative that said we wanna get them. Pardon the pun. Fired up for the 2025 season. We go with that here.

And we were able to provide education and yes, I mentioned both of you already, but education that gets them ready for the season, takeaways that they can implement into their campground operations right now. It was a new rollout. We did have 10 excellent exhibitors that joined us, and hopefully as this continues to grow, we can welcome more.

But it was excellent feedback. We had over 30 people that were on live throughout the course of the day, but the best part about it is these educational programs, the exhibitors, the message boards, all of the things that we offered in this forum are available for our members for up to three months.

So even though it was a one day launch event, our members can access the information at their convenience, which was really the whole point. So that’s what we’re here for, to listen to our members and give them what they want. That’s what Fire Up Forum was. 

Brian Searl: I think this is an interesting, this is an interesting thing to me too, and I’m back.

I don’t know if you I rebooted my whole $1,500 board that froze up in the middle of a show. But anyway, so this is interesting to me, the virtual stuff, right? Because we put on, like my, I had a company temporarily called Camp Con. We put on some of this stuff during the pandemic for virtual events for people when everything was canceled.

And I think back then there was a clear sentiment and expression that I agreed with that like obviously in-person events are more powerful, that networking can’t be replaced. Like nobody ever debated that, but people got sick and tired of being stuck in their homes. Deservedly right? And so virtual events got a stigma associated with them.

I feel like at least in our industry here. 

Emily Simmons: Agreed. 

Brian Searl: Among certain capacities and crowds. But I think the flip side of this now is I don’t think anybody, including you, Emily, is saying this virtual event replaces the conference that you have in October, right? 

Emily Simmons : Correct. Not at all. It just enhances the ability to reach more of our members.

Brian Searl: So I think that’s important to make that distinction because I feel like there’s a lot of associations who could benefit from more touch points with their audience. There’s so much education, there’s so much teaching, there’s so much change and uncertainty happening and there’s so much education and guidance and updates you can provide to your members.

I’m really not sure why you’re dropping the ball, Michael. 

Michael Moore: Hey, look, I was gonna say I, and you guys are both right in that as the associations grow, and Emily said, she has 200 members, there’s not a one size fits all solution to reaching them. There just isn’t. And so you have to be able to meet them on their level, whether it’s, and look for most of them it’s the in person.

And for a lot of states and associations, those are, those do quite well and are very successful. 

Brian Searl: Yeah. 

Michael Moore: But then at the same time, there’s gonna be that virtual office and like for example, for TACO, we do webinars throughout the year. We’ll do a handful of those. 

That covers some whatever, relevant topic there is, but that’s, obviously a real easy way to get information out to people that might not normally be able to spend three days in Conroe, Texas for the TACO meeting, or. 

Brian Searl: They might even be able to do that. Nobody’s saying, like there will be people who would choose one or the other. But also you could choose both. 

Emily Simmons : Absolutely. 

Michael Moore: Yeah. 

Emily Simmons : And I think for us too, having speakers and experts that come on to a virtual event that may not otherwise be able to do an in-person due to scheduling conflict.

So I think there’s a lot of benefit there too. 

Brian Searl: Yeah, that’s mostly Scott. He’s super busy. 

Michael Moore: And I think the it is the need for information between what me and Emily do with the associations? That’s a, it’s a constant stream of that. Meaning people the operators are very hungry for knowledge.

And so it’s not as simple as having a single event, every year. And that’s where, hey, that’s where they get all their info and then they’re good for the year. Like they want it year round. And whether it’s these virtual events or the in-person shows and believe me, I’m sure there’s a handful of other things I’m not even thinking of.

There’s absolutely I think a demand for it. It’s all about just tweaking it to get the most bang for your buck outta it, if you’ll, exactly. 

Brian Searl: All right. So your conference is coming up, Michael, when? 

Michael Moore: That will be yeah. April 29th and 30th. In Conroe it’s at the Lone Star Convention Center where we’ve had it the last few years.

We, just a couple days ago, sold out of exhibitor space, so that’s very good. And that you’re adding another row or two, I think in our, 

Emily Simmons: Oh, good for you. 

Michael Moore: Yeah and we’ve got, a good a lineup of speakers. We’ve got new this year actually, we’re gonna have the RV Tech Institute put on a seminar the day before the actual show itself.

So it’s not part of kind of the main content. It’s the day before, but it’s in conjunction and hosted at the same host hotel. Yeah, no, we’re looking forward to it. And attendance looks very good. But again, I go back to it’s that need for information that, that that people come for, that they want, that they can’t get a lot of places, like I, I tell folks sometimes you can’t necessarily Google how to run a campground.

You could probably find some things, but nothing’s better than information and networking and talking to people that. We’re both new to the business and have been here for 30 years. There’s always something that you’re gonna be able to learn from those people.

Brian Searl: And some of it’s the drinking too, let’s be honest. 

Michael Moore: I mean, 

Emily Simmons : It’s where some of the best networking happens. 

Brian Searl: Yeah. 

Michael Moore: Truly. That is the best networking. Quite honestly, 

Brian Searl: I don’t even want to imagine the conversations that we would have at conferences if we were all drinking Pepsi. They just wouldn’t be the same.

Michael Moore: They’d be a lot shorter. I know that much. 

Brian Searl: So what’s your most important priority here for Texas right now, Michael? Like for your members, what are you focusing on?

Michael Moore: Yeah, I would say without a doubt legislative. Because we will survey our members every couple of years for, ’cause we like to recalibrate what we’re doing, quite honestly for the members and what they want us to do. And so legislative is always the top priority, meaning having us be on the lookout for, their sort of rights as campground owners and protecting the way they can operate. And for this year. An interesting thing with Texas is our legislature is only in session every other year which is great because again, it means that we’re not having to do this kind of dog and pony show every year.

But so what that means is we’ll have a couple pieces of legislation that are being introduced, making their way through, through the Congress, and making sure that, we get things done for campground owners so that they can quite honestly, better run their business and probably more so here, get the government out of their business.

Brian Searl: Emily, same question to you. 

Emily Simmons : And very similar answer. And I know New York has a great reputation for being super business friendly, right? So it makes my job very easy. And I say that jokingly, of course. So our job really right now is also legislative. We have several advocacy pieces that we’re working on really to help keep costs down for our operators and our owners.

The savings programs, really just getting the word out to our members in the wake of everything we talked about today, and how a lot of our savings programs can help them operationally. And then marketing. Listen we’re neighbors to Canada. We have a lot of our campgrounds that are feeling the effects of that.

So working to focus on domestic marketing, but also making sure that our friends to the north know that they’re welcome and we want them here. So those are some of the big priorities for us right now. 

Brian Searl: All right. Michael, let’s talk about CAMP for a second. We got a couple minutes left. The people who don’t know, like I know you introduced it briefly, but 

Michael Moore: Yeah. CAMP is an organization of state campground association executives. So essentially the folks that are managing TACO and CONY and KOA and Florida and those associations that are in those states. And regional too. We do have a couple of regional associations, but yeah.

Brian Searl: You’re gonna, you’re gonna leave somebody out and they’re gonna be the one person who’s watching this show.

Michael Moore: Oh, I know. I’m probably getting a text at the, this moment from a camp member, a buddy of mine who says, Hey, you forgot me. Which look, if you don’t wanna if you can go to the website, we’ve got our members there, campgroundexecutive.com. But yeah. So what we’re, for us it’s about getting together and sharing quite honestly the things we all go through because it’s such a niche thing that we do as far as these associations and even the industry.

Not that camping itself is a niche industry, but just the fact, the jobs that me and Emily and other executives have is such a, it’s a small world and it’s very helpful to learn from each other. And for our meeting coming up, we have a meeting in Washington DC in June.

Actually tariffs are gonna be one of the issues we talk about and dealing with that. ’cause even though, not every state borders Canada. All the states are gonna feel the effect of it as far as that traffic goes. And what happens there, especially Texas, as you can imagine, we have our winter, our snowbirds that come here during the winter time, and so that’s gonna have 

Brian Searl: Winter texan. Michael. It’s winter Texans. It’s winter Texans. Michael. 

Michael Moore: I know. I wanted to be ambiguous and welcoming to all, but. 

Brian Searl: Oh, sorry. 

Michael Moore: Yeah, well I mean, that’s kinda, 

Brian Searl: Kinda steal from Arizona, I didn’t wanna step on your toes. 

Michael Moore: But that’s gonna be a big thing that we talk about is the impact that, that, and with the meeting in June, we’ll know more obviously by then what the fallout is, but dealing with that and then, the ongoing effect of, the national sort of going with the direct model route and what that looks like for a lot of the state associations who were formally affiliated with that and navigating those waters.

Yeah, but there, there’s a lot of good stuff that, that we have going and we like to share and we all get along very well. And yeah, no, it should be a good meeting in June and I think a lot will come out of it. 

Brian Searl: Alright, let’s wrap up with a data point real quick. We’ll start with you Simon.

So of all the people that you’re consulting with on maps and Europe and elsewhere around the world, what is one kind of data insight or trend that you’re drawing their attention to that they should be mindful of in 2025? 

Simon Neal: Yeah, it’s coming back to the theme I talked about. It’s digital book ability is really important and showing what you have by your proposition.

Brian Searl: Okay. Same question to you Emily, but obviously not for Europe.

Emily Simmons : Marketing? 

Brian Searl: Is there anything specific though, like something that I. And I know Scott will be specific, but is there anything you’re like, just pulling something, I’m not saying this is your answer, but like consumer sentiment, watch that, or something like, like a specific thing that you’re counseling your members to be mindful of this year?

Emily Simmons : Yes, it goes back to the consumer sentiment, being aware of cost. It really wraps up everything we talked about today and the value proposition piece. And I think just sharing upfront what they are able to offer to the consumer. 

Brian Searl: Okay. Michael. 

Michael Moore: Can I do two? Is that cheating or?

Brian Searl: Yes, you can do two. Not gonna be super long-winded, that’s why we did everybody else. 

Michael Moore: No. Yeah. Yeah. The first one I would say is, through surveying. I know our readers through AGS and our readers with our state campground guide, our Texas Campgrounds magazine.

We know that folks RVers and readers of those guides keep those after they leave the destination, whether it’s leaving the campground, leaving the state, whatever. And so I say all that to say to really remind campground owners and operators to, do as much as you can to promote yourself to the people that are already there.

Brian Searl: I don’t wanna be the weird contrarian guy here, but how do you know that they keep the guidebooks, for sure? 

Michael Moore: We have surveys of thousands of our readers of the guides, or thousands of, honestly, the people that request our TACO magazines at RV shows, we’ve got surveys there, so. 

Brian Searl: You have strong data. 

Michael Moore: I’m not saying it’s extensive as Scott’s method. 

Brian Searl: You have strong data points, but you don’t actually know for sure, like there’s no hidden cameras or anything that you’re monitoring. 

Michael Moore: No, that’s illegal. As far as the hidden cameras go. 

Brian Searl: I don’t know what’s legal and not in Texas, man, you’re in Texas. Like anything goes down there. 

Michael Moore: True. But we’re also big on the personal. So just be careful. 

Brian Searl: Okay. That’s true. That’s fair. 

Michael Moore: But no, what I, say all that to campgrounds, you’ve got that captive audience there. Do everything you can to encourage the repeat stay, the referral stay, whatever.

‘Cause again, the number one source of all anyone’s business can run otherwise is repeat referral. So do everything you can to get that info into your guest hands so that they come back and tell people. And then I’d say the second one and again I don’t know the exact number, but I know that I use Scott’s data on the consumer spend in the community a lot, especially on the AGS side, to educate the community on the fact that, hey, this RV park is bringing a lot of people to the area and they’re spending money in town, so don’t sleep on this this destination or this park down the road just because you think, oh, there’s only a couple hundred people in there at any one time.

But extrapolate that over the entire gear, and you’re talking about a lot of money being spent in the community. 

Brian Searl: For sure. Scott? 

Scott Bahr: I think, for me it’s looking at the close to home. People staying close to home. We’ve been tracking this a little bit and we started off the year with looking like people were gonna venture a lot further out this coming year.

Things have changed and the radius is shrinking. We’re looking at about, a third of all people, campers, stay within 50 miles. That’s what they’re saying right now. 

Brian Searl: What is it normally? 

Scott Bahr: It’s usually 20% to 25%. 

Brian Searl: Okay. 

Scott Bahr: It’s noticeable. The other, on the other end of that, there, there was a group of people who were looking to venture further out, more than 200 miles and that, that has shrunk.

Excuse me. Sorry. That snuck up on me. The proximity. So what I’ve been saying is, look at the people close by. 

And especially when you consider the potential, like I live in Maine. Losing a lot of people from Canada already. A lot of businesses have, I think be more internally focused.

In order to make up for that within short distance. And there may be people who normally don’t go to places like Beach who will do that now, knowing that it’s probably gonna be pretty open. 

Brian Searl: Yeah. Yeah. I mean I think for me it’s just, from a marketing standpoint, we have these conversations with so many people is just pay attention to these shifts in behavior.

And whether it’s nationwide to local or when this, when we get out of whatever this uncertainty is, whether it’s this year or five years or whatever it is, the shift back to nationwide to longer trips, whether it’s, millennials to Gen Z to boomers, whether it’s big RVs to small RVs, whether it’s tents to glamping or whatever, or Canadians to versus Americans.

You have to pay attention to this data at some point. And you have these, a lot of you have these powerful reservation systems, Camp Spot, Newbook, ResNexus, et cetera, et cetera. And now I’m gonna get a text, Michael, ’cause I forgot somebody. But you have this powerful data that’s available in all of these reports, and certainly it’s a lot, nobody’s saying you have to look at it all, but pick a couple things that you think might be changing in 2025 as a result of whatever you believe and track them and pay attention to them.

And then say to yourself, if this goes the way I think it is, or it doesn’t go the way I think it is, what is gonna be my plan now, as Scott talked about creating a path and hopefully you, if it’s a negative outlook, you never have to take that path, but at least you have it in your back pocket.

It’s the same thing we’re talking about with our clients. Just like plan for the worst case scenario. 

What if the GDP of the United States is down 2.4% like the Atlanta Fed is predicting. Like what if that happens? Maybe that doesn’t change any camper behavior, but maybe it does. So let’s just have a plan, whether that’s a discount code or rate change or marketing shift or whatever.

That’s my thing. So thank you guys for joining us. I appreciate it was another good episode. Data and insights. Thanks Simon for stealing the whole show and with your presentation. But it was really good. Like I really do hearing that data ’cause especially when it generally speaking, I like hearing it, but when it, especially when it correlates and backs up the fact that like the behavior of humans generally speaking in Europe or in Asia or in, anywhere in the world in the United States, Canada, et cetera, is generally the same when things happen, like prices rise and behavior shift and all that stuff happens.

Thank you guys for joining us. I appreciate it. It’s in a good episode. We’ll see you next week. Another episode of MC Fireside Chats. If you are not tired of me and Scott yet, we will be talking for another little bit on our next show Outwired, which starts in a little bit less than an hour now. We’ll be talking about prepping your campground for the upcoming season with some data that Greg Emmert’s gonna share.

Some insights  Greg Emmert’s gonna share from a consulting campground perspective. Scott’s gonna share some data and I’ll just sit there and I dunno what I’ll do ’cause I don’t even look pretty. So I’ll just sit there. Thanks guys. Have a good show. I appreciate it. 

Simon Neal: Thank you, everyone. 

Michael Moore: Bye bye. 

Scott Bahr: Thanks.