MC Fireside Chats – June 17th, 2026

[00:00:45] Brian Searl: Welcome everybody to another episode of MC Fireside Chats. My name is Brian Searl with Insider Perks and Modern Campground, excited to be here with you guys for our, what is it now? It’s like the June 10th?

 So like it’s the middle of, no it’s not even June 10th, my clock is wrong on my computer, it says it’s 6:47 PM, so I feel like that’s wrong too. I don’t know what today’s date is, but we’re excited to be here for another show. With a couple of our recurring guests, we have Jeff Hoffman, Sandy Ellingson, and a few special guests here that are gonna just go around the room and introduce ourselves briefly.

 I’m still out of my studio. I have a graphics card, Jeff, like you’re a tech guy, so I feel like you’ll identify with this, right? I have a graphics card that I ordered for my new computer, like a little fan that I need to put on it, and it’s been sitting in a warehouse in Illinois, shipped from eBay, for two weeks, hasn’t moved.

 I’ve never in my life encountered like a shipping thing that you can pay for where you’re like, yeah, I just want that shipped to the guy that bought it, but I want it to sit in the warehouse for two weeks before it moves.

[00:01:39] Jeff Hoffman: that’s always good. That’s why I bought the part so it could sit.

[00:01:42] Brian Searl: Yeah, so sometime between, yeah, it’s June, and now I know what date it is, 17th, isn’t it? Cause I was looking at it this morning. It said 16th through the 24th is when it was supposed to be here, but I ordered it three weeks ago.

[00:01:53] Jeff Hoffman: I just had a new one. I had my laptop that I’m actually still on, but it blew up the other day. I think the battery must have popped.

[00:02:02] Brian Searl: Did it literally blow up or are you exaggerating the excitement?

[00:02:04] Jeff Hoffman: it lifted the top of the deck, the typewriter deck. Okay. And popped and had a nice electric sound.

 So I replaced everything, but it’s still working just in case I have backup computers running now.

[00:02:22] Brian Searl: that doesn’t sound very safe. So is it like the Samsung phones that used to blow up every once in a while? People’s pockets?

[00:02:29] Jeff Hoffman: Yep.

[00:02:30] Brian Searl: But not as bad as that, you’re safe.

[00:02:32] Jeff Hoffman: Nah. Should be okay.

[00:02:34] Brian Searl: Is your computer blown up?

[00:02:35] Jeff Hoffman: I think it was the battery that popped. And I don’t use it with a battery anymore anyway, 

[00:02:42] Brian Searl: you don’t use your laptop with a battery? Oh, you just plug it in all the time.

[00:02:44] Jeff Hoffman: Yeah.

[00:02:45] Brian Searl: Ah, gotcha. Okay. All right, let’s go around and introduce ourselves briefly. Jeff, why don’t you start and then we’ll go around the room and introduce everybody.

[00:02:51] Jeff Hoffman: Hi, my name is Jeff Hoffman and I’m with Camp Strategy, which is based out of Sandusky, Ohio. We work exclusively in the RV campground and glamping area to help put owners in a better position financially and mentally.

[00:03:09] Brian Searl: Welcome Jeff, thanks for being here as always. Sandy, our other recurring guest.

[00:03:13] Sandy Ellingson: yeah, hello. Today, I used to just say Campground Advocate because I serve as a liaison between the industry and campgrounds, but as of today I am officially the CEO of the Lamp Post Foundation, which is the foundation that’s gonna oversee Outdoor Insights. Which you’ll hear a lot more about later.

[00:03:30] Brian Searl: why don’t we hear about it now, Sandy?

[00:03:34] Sandy Ellingson: You want to hear about it now? The short thing is that Outdoor Insights actually connects all of our data from across all the different systems, whether it’s camping information or campground or industry information, and gives us a digital dashboard that’s agnostic. So no personal information is ever given away or shared.

 And will help us actually, I believe rescue our industry right now because we’re suffering from the lack of good information and data. And now we’ll be able to have access to it. We’re in private beta now, but in 90 days we’ll have the public launch and everybody will be able to have access to the dashboards.

 And it’s being done through a foundation, 

[00:04:14] Brian Searl: is it all free or are you gonna charge for it?

[00:04:16] Sandy Ellingson: it is free for certain people. However, the, some of the industry people are paying for the dashboards basically through donations. So our industry is supporting it. And it’s extremely low cost because it’s not a for-profit company.

 All we want to do is cover the server information and stuff. So I think the most any company, even one the size of, like a Lippert or a Forest River is $3,600 a year. Is the most we ever ask for. But we already have 30 data partners that are sharing data with us, key data partners, so that’s really good.

 And that too we’re private beta testing with. And I mean it’s, I’m just telling you, it’s amazing the data we’re seeing come through and what we’re able to do. The reason I had the choice of doing this as a for-profit or doing this as a foundation. I chose doing it as a foundation because the goal really is to help our industry as a whole grow.

 And that’s where my heart is, and so this will all, we’ll never turn anybody down. Like a church, you want to show up, come on, we’ll never turn you down.

[00:05:23] Brian Searl: Are you charging Jeff double?

[00:05:24] Sandy Ellingson: Does Jeff get it for free? Is Jeff paying for it? That’s all I need to know. I’m charging Jeff double.

[00:05:29] Jeff Hoffman: I was gonna say, I, I’ve known Sandy a long time. She’ll talk me into paying triple.

[00:05:34] Sandy Ellingson: Exactly.

[00:05:36] Jeff Hoffman: So that you can get in free, Brian.

[00:05:39] Brian Searl: Yeah, I need it. I don’t have any money, alright, let’s welcome our other two special guests. We have Cris here. Cris, please introduce yourself.

you’re muted Cris, we can’t hear you.

[00:05:47] Cris Risley: So sorry. Cris Cris Risley from Bar Run Golf and RV Resort in Roseburg, Oregon. So we have RVs and tiny homes as well.

[00:06:01] Brian Searl: How far are you from Portland? That’s the only major city I know in Oregon.

[00:06:04] Cris Risley: We’re about three hours south of that. Right down the I-5.

[00:06:08] Brian Searl: Like close to Klamath Falls? Or I lied, it was Klamath Falls, I know that too.

[00:06:12] Cris Risley: We’re not not too far from Klamath Falls, about an hour and a half. 

[00:06:15] Brian Searl: Okay. I’d like to explore more of Oregon, but I have too much nice stuff up here near Calgary and Banff to explore first, so right now.

[00:06:22] Cris Risley: Oh, I gotcha. Yeah. Very nice.

[00:06:24] Brian Searl: It’s a beautiful area of the country. Like I’ve been to the coast over there a couple times. Seen that. I don’t know, the dunes, the other dunes over there on the Oregon coast, yeah.

[00:06:31] Cris Risley: yep. We’re about an hour away from there. Hour and a half. 

[00:06:34] Brian Searl: Last but not least, Ken and Garrett.

[00:06:37] Ken Sawyer: Hey guys, I’m Ken Sawyer.

[00:06:39] Garrett Sawyer: I’m his son, Garrett. Howdy, how are you guys doing?

[00:06:43] Brian Searl: Good, how are you? Introduce yourself. I don’t know if you could just go as father and son if you want to, but I feel like you probably do something more important than that.

[00:06:49] Ken Sawyer: Yeah. No, that works too. We build round yurt cabins that are solid wall. And also come with the integrated flooring system. So what separates us from other yurt manufacturers is it’s a legitimate cabin just with the uniqueness and the shape of a yurt.

 And they can be placed temporary or permanent, just about anywhere you’d like.

[00:07:14] Brian Searl: See, Jeff asked them a really interesting question. Jeff’s a consultant for Camp Strategy. Jeff asked them a super cool question about like, how it’s a cabin and not a yurt, or a yurt and a cabin, or something like that. Cause it sounds like an interesting concept.

 Yes. No.

 Jeff, if you’re talking, you’re muted.

[00:07:32] Garrett Sawyer: Yep.

[00:07:36] Brian Searl: Can’t hear you.

Sandy, do you have an interesting question about the yurt cabin while Jeff’s trying to figure out how to unmute himself?

[00:07:44] Sandy Ellingson: yeah I believe that I’ve seen you guys at some of the shows and I really like it. I love the idea that it’s got the floor and the walls. How does that compare for in pricing and then longevity than the standard yurts?

[00:07:56] Ken Sawyer: Our prices are actually a little more due to the fact that it’s a solid cabin rather than a yurt tent, more or less. We don’t have any lattice or cloth on our structure. The, I guess like the only fabric around the top is a PVC roof membrane. It goes by the name of Duro-Last, but it has a 15-year warranty.

 You don’t have to worry about metal like other structures. You don’t have to worry about rust. You don’t have to worry about dents. But it’s completely customizable. It comes with the flooring system, so it’s not an additional charge that you have to think about when you initially get it.

 But it’s completely customizable.

[00:08:40] Garrett Sawyer: It comes as a kit, so once it’s set up, it comes with your flooring system, your walls, your roof system, and all the nuts, bolts, and screws that you need.

[00:08:52] Ken Sawyer: Stand it up and paint it any color you want.

[00:08:53] Brian Searl: Yep. One of the things that I want to give them a hard time when they say completely customizable and ask if it can be a square too.

[00:09:01] Ken Sawyer: If you’d like to. Yep. After you order it, you can do whatever you want with it. Then it’s a cabin.

[00:09:07] Brian Searl: Yeah. That’s not a bad idea though, right? Because we see that and admittedly like accommodations and structures are not my strong suit by any stretch of the imagination. It would be cool if Zach Stoltenberg or somebody that normally appears on our shows, an architect, to talk a little bit more about this stuff.

 And obviously Jeff, you know a little bit working with all the companies or campgrounds that use Camp Strategy and your years in business as a campground owner. But it seems like a, what we’ve seen is like this typical everybody’s got a cabin rental. Those have been around for decades, right?

 Whether they’ve been upgraded a little bit and there are different designs and they come from different manufacturers and most of them are on wheels to avoid taxes and permitting and all that kind of stuff. And then we have the glamping, like not all of it’s tents, right? But the glamping accommodations that are a lot of them are made from canvas or some other type of material that, while they’re sturdy and good and nothing saying any, not saying anything bad about them, it feels like there’s really done a hybrid model like this.

 Is there room for it, Jeff?

[00:10:04] Jeff Hoffman: Yes I think so. It addresses some of the issues that people have with the typical yurt, which is the sites are not conducive to long life. And I think maybe you’ve addressed that problem. Also the insulating factors. Even though they are starting to insulate the yurts and theyre getting better at it, they’re not getting a good R-value.

 And depending where you are, just trying to air condition is costing an arm and a leg trying to keep the units cool because you’re just keep cooling this air and it’s going right back out. The roof, people are looking for unique accommodations. Everybody’s stayed in a park model, everybody’s stayed in a cabin, a lot of people have stayed.

 And, by having it so that you might be able to customize it both with colors, shades, we can blend it into the campground a little bit more or make it stand out a little bit more. And I’m assuming that you have, like some areas of the country, you’re gonna run into building codes that you’re gonna have to have engineering drawings to get them approved.

[00:11:24] Ken Sawyer: Yep, correct. I’m going through that right now even though I preach it, and I have a stamped print, the state is still not accepting it. I’m going, it’s stamped by your other department.

[00:11:39] Jeff Hoffman: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:11:43] Brian Searl: I think we should buy our own country, Jeff, and just have no regulations and set up campgrounds all over the place.

[00:11:48] Jeff Hoffman: you already bought your own country up in Canada.

[00:11:54] Brian Searl: Our 51st state.

[00:11:56] Jeff Hoffman: Yeah.

[00:11:58] Brian Searl: No, I don’t want to be the 51st state, man, cause then I would have to also surrender to Iran, but that’s a whole other topic we won’t talk about. Let’s go back to Ken and Garrett. Let’s go back to Ken and Garrett. I’m just messing around. I’m just Ken and Garrett, please did you have any comments to what Jeff said?

[00:12:12] Garrett Sawyer: Yeah, we so we work specifically with an engineer that’s based out of Oregon. He’s approved in all 50 states. So if we, if a customer needs wet stamp plans for the foundation or for the cabin itself or even both, he’s able to get that configured for the customer. And we get them, we’re approved for climate zones one through six, and we’ve gotten some in some sevens.

 But we’ve got them from the Rockies extreme cold temperatures, all the way to the brutal heat.

[00:12:44] Jeff Hoffman: Yep. That’s great. And by having the engineering service available it helps with me if I would be recommending your product because I don’t have to bring in an engineer to design the pads just for your unit. It, we can fit them into our overall plan, but it cuts out some engineering costs for our customer.

[00:13:09] Garrett Sawyer: Exactly.

[00:13:11] Brian Searl: Let me ask this question because in an era where prices are up for all campground owners in various aspects, insurance and electricity and, I’m sure your accommodations have had to go up a little bit because of the things that are happening in the world, right? There’s, I would assume that there’s a larger amount of owners today, and most are ROI focused anyway, but there are more today than there were yesterday or last week or two months ago who are looking at accommodation types.

 If they are still buying in this market and saying I need something that’s the maximum amount of ROI. So I could buy a cabin that’s traditional, it’s safe, right? Depending on if I’ve done my market study or hired a consultant like Jeff and I know this stuff would work in my area. Or there’s the cheaper option, which is not, like I don’t mean to imply it’s cheap, but more affordable option in the traditional yurt with the canvas that has less longevity.

 And then there’s you that seem to be slotting right in the middle. So Jeff made a really good point with the air conditioning. If you’re, if you have air conditioning in your yurt, theoretically your design as a cabin hybrid model would save electricity costs. But what’s the other incentive for the owner to go with you when money is tight right now?

[00:14:16] Ken Sawyer: A lot of it is due to energy efficiency. We have three or four different kinds of insulation in our walls. Our standard is a bat insulation, and then we can also go up to an E20, which is what the other yurt companies has, which is a aluminum foil more or less on top of bubble wrap, which has a reflection values, which a lot of people have mixed feelings about that. I’m one of them.

 We can also do a rigid foam, which actually just like the inside of a, like a Yeti cooler, it’s completely filled, so it’s nice and solid. Doing that also glues the entire structure, wall, the wall panel structure together. So it’s a lot more durable. We have two up to five inches of insulation you can put on the ceiling, which actually helps your R-value also.

 We can do a double dome. Our flooring system has 2×6 pressure treated underneath it, and our large cabin actually has 2x8s. So we can actually fill that void with the insulation of your choice too, depending on your jurisdiction or where you have permitting and engineering specs that need to be met basically.

[00:15:41] Sandy Ellingson: Yeah. Insurance is also an issue.

[00:15:44] Ken Sawyer: Yes, definitely.

[00:15:46] Sandy Ellingson: So you guys can probably tell from my intro, I’m a data geek and I get, I can get lost in data. I’m, I would be interested to know if you’re, if you found a sweet spot based on like this number of sites at a campground, how many yurts they should buy. Because you, you’ve seen trends of how many, how easy it is to fill the occupancy inside of those.

 Is it, all be yurts…

[00:16:12] Brian Searl: You’re asking the guy selling the yurts, they should all be yurts.

[00:16:15] Sandy Ellingson: I want to know what the sweet spot is because, some may buy two and they really need four, some might buy eight when they really need four. You don’t do yourself any service if you oversell them, right? You want to try and help find the right service level for each of the parks based on occupancy and other things. So I just wondered if you’d seen anything like that in your data.

[00:16:38] Garrett Sawyer: Yeah, we so we worked with the Colorado State Parks on a project and they started with eight. And then just after starting with those, they ended up getting another one as well. And they’re looking to do more business down the road. But we also worked with another company out of California that started with, I want to say it was eight as well, but now they’re up to just under 20.

 And basically for the most part with state parks or even campgrounds, starting off with about six and then seeing how you get the feel for it, how they come together how you can do different interior layouts. They just tend to blow up after that because if you’re building in an extremely cold area or extremely hot, we meet all those specs to keep it either cool or warm, whatever you’re looking to aim for.

[00:17:26] Ken Sawyer: And like you said, you need a little variety when you go to a resort or a campground just to say somebody doesn’t like yurts, somebody doesn’t like cabins, somebody doesn’t like an RV. That’s all opinions, but you want definitely choices. But I remember back to an article that OHI put out two years ago that yurts were the number one sought after for uniqueness.

 And then the next one was cabins due to its structure and safety. And we’re both of them, so I love that article.

[00:18:03] Sandy Ellingson: I’m sorry Brian, go ahead.

[00:18:05] Brian Searl: I was just gonna say, Chris, I’m gonna get to you in a second, but Sandy, make your point and then I’ll make mine.

[00:18:09] Sandy Ellingson: I was just gonna say we just have samplings of data right now, but one of the interesting samplings of data we saw when we were only looking at glamping units is for items or for glamping types that did not have the environment secured, they either could get hot or they could get cold.

 The occupancy obviously went down during those months versus like just a cottage, it stayed steady across each of the months based on performance prior year. But yurts also were higher in the months that were good than the cabins were, the occupancy level. So it evened out, which to me, that’s something a campground should know.

 They should know that this type is gonna overperform this type in certain areas, but just because it’s hot or cold doesn’t mean you shouldn’t have one. 

[00:19:02] Brian Searl: But the in certain areas piece is where I think you need to like, we need to drill down for the owners who are watching, right? Because there’s in certain areas from a warm, hot, southwest, northeast, whatever else seasonality that I think you’re talking about Sandy?

[00:19:15] Sandy Ellingson: That’s right. Yes.

[00:19:16] Brian Searl: And then there’s, and then so that’s macro versus micro. And so that’s where like I come into two things. Like I meant to like what Jeff does, feasibility studies, what’s the market who is, who in the area is going to come to my campground, what’s the demographic, are they likely to rent yurts, right?

 And then two is we’ve done some interesting modeling on data on our side where we, because we know all the pricing of all the places, like Airbnbs and hotels and everything nearby, we can give like a payback time to the owners saying if you buy this unit, this is the average typical rate you can get and, expect to get in the area. Just payback time is that.

 So I think it’s two things. It’s macro like you’re talking about, Sandy, which is very important, but then micro, which is what Jeff does. Is that fair, Jeff?

[00:19:59] Jeff Hoffman: Yep. Yeah, and as far as the question that Sandy asked about how many units and that, I generally will err to a conservative side and then base any additions on the occupancy we’re seeing. And you don’t want to make it so revenue management works with dynamic pricing, you want to have at least a few units that are all the same.

 Otherwise you really can’t use dynamic pricing if everything is a one-off.

[00:20:35] Sandy Ellingson: Yeah.

[00:20:35] Jeff Hoffman: Because obviously if you rent that one unit, it’s 100% occupied.

[00:20:41] Brian Searl: are you talking about dynamic pricing on the type of the unit? Like the differentiating factors that we’re talking about?

[00:20:46] Jeff Hoffman: No it, it won’t look at the occupancy of the cabin, like cabins, yurts overall. It looks at specific units. Now if somebody comes up with that program, CampSpot, Staylist, come on. That would be awesome. Newbook probably already has it.

[00:21:08] Brian Searl: Okay, I got you. Cause I, I got, I’ll forget whose sponsor is who soon. It was interesting just cause you said that and I want you to finish your thought, but I was just, we were thinking about this the other day. We were looking at a client, and I won’t say where, but they were on a river and they were looking at their riverside sites and the pricing of that.

 And then I had somebody ask me, I think it was in a Facebook group, maybe Mark Koep’s Facebook group, somebody posted about 100 amp. How they were building a new resort and they had 100 amp at some of the sites, right? And they were asking is there a, difference in price that you would charge for 100 amp.

 And what we went and looked at our database for that, and there’s not many people that, there’s a lot, there’s actually I don’t know, 200 people that say they have 100 amp on the text of their website, but there’s only I think five or six that we could find that actually have it as a site type.

 But the difference maker that we found in the site types was mostly the location and the amenities of the site that were separate from the 100 amp. In other words, the 100 amp were typically more deluxe or premium sites overall, with other things that warranted charging them higher than just saying it’s a 100 amp site and charging more for that. Cause the customer doesn’t really see the value in that.

[00:22:09] Jeff Hoffman: Yeah, I believe the people running crazy insights companies out of an RV and things like that.

[00:22:15] Brian Searl: But besides Sandy. It’s right?

[00:22:19] Jeff Hoffman: they were, I think they were putting those 100 amp in for the future of all-electric RVs.

[00:22:28] Sandy Ellingson: Yeah.

[00:22:28] Jeff Hoffman: Because Sandy, if you know that the RV industry right now has limited 50 amps as the peak.

[00:22:36] Sandy Ellingson: Yeah.

[00:22:37] Jeff Hoffman: and that’s great for, most of the parks because just trying to get the older parks up to 50 is cost prohibitive. If we have to go to 100 amps that’s a lot of retrofitting. I can see doing a few pads, but that also goes back to all new transformers and everything to get that 100 amps.

[00:22:58] Sandy Ellingson: Yeah, and most of my parks that are putting in 100 amp, they’re putting it in when they’re building it, knowing that the cost is minimal to put in 100 amp over 50 amp. And their reasoning behind that is if the transient were tanked, they could always put tiny homes on these same sites without having to do any kind of retrofitting.

 So like a lot of your large park groups they went in with that plan in mind thinking, if transient slows down, we can easily bring in and make this a long-term stay or a 55 plus or something like that because we’ll already have it in the ground.

[00:23:34] Ken Sawyer: Or a Freedom Yurt Cabin.

[00:23:38] Sandy Ellingson: Exactly.

[00:23:38] Brian Searl: What can you guys do with a 100 amp service?

[00:23:42] Jeff Hoffman: I think you can definitely hook up anything to it. Now do you guys have when you ship it, it has pre-approved plumbing and everything, the only thing we have to get inspected is the actual electrical connections, sewer connections, and water connections, correct?

[00:24:01] Garrett Sawyer: Yeah, more or less. So when the cabin is delivered, it’s delivered as a kit, so it’s on palletized crates. And then once it’s set up, I mean it’s super, basically however high end, low end, minimalist you want to go with it. But when it comes to the electrical, the plumbing, you can either feed that through the flooring system itself, or you can even do like a 2×4 framing in the walls, 2×6 framing in the for, for interior walls.

 Even lofts. But it just depends on how you want to set up the layout per se. But Ken actually works on a designing app to, to help customers visualize how they can, like how they, they want to do their floor system with or floor plans with the like layout walls. Basically if you had a idea you wanted, say two person occupancy, I want a bathroom and a small kitchen, but I want a king size bed and I want 30 square foot bathroom or 100 square foot bathroom.

[00:25:11] Ken Sawyer: Just basically lay that out, let me know what your parameters are, and I can actually plot it into the, my program and tell you what size cabin would be the best for you if you wanted extra room. That way you don’t get like our 22 wall cabin is 716 square feet. For double, dual occupancy, that’d be large.

 But you could definitely do multiple bedrooms for kids, etc. But it’s basically a way to lay it out so you can see it on paper without having it in your hands.

[00:25:44] Jeff Hoffman: Any possibility of making them two-story, which is something no other yurt can do?

[00:25:49] Ken Sawyer: We’ve actually had a client that has put it on a full walkout basement. Cause he was a bricklayer and that was his retirement home. So it’s on our website, it’s really cool. All right. I actually just designed another one that goes on a walkout basement that has a, oh, it’s like a nine, ten foot ceiling on it in the basement. So it’s, we can do multiple things like this.

[00:26:15] Jeff Hoffman: Yeah, cause I for a a public property they want to go two stories but keep the space minimum so they’re not using as much property but build up so that they can get the capacity. So it’d be great because I, that’s one thing I can’t do with a park model. So you would be competing against site built, which factories should beat site built any day.

[00:26:46] Ken Sawyer: We’ve actually, we’ve had the idea of stacking them, which would be cool. But I’m also coming up with another wall instead of an eight foot tall wall, it’s at least a 12 foot tall wall or if not even taller than that, so we can actually get that second story in there without being crowded in the upper, upstairs more or less.

[00:27:08] Jeff Hoffman: All right, that makes sense too.

[00:27:10] Brian Searl: Cris, what do you said you had some accommodations at your campground, right?

[00:27:21] Cris Risley: Yeah, we, I think it’s pretty interesting. We have six tiny homes. Four that are traditional and two that are containers, one 40-foot container with a couple bump outs, and another one that is two 20-foot containers set up like a cube. And what’s interesting they’re all get used a lot, our occupancy is pretty good, but there is significantly less occupancy in the containers.

 Those two are less than the ones that are more traditional cabin style tiny homes. But I am interested in the yurt thing. I’m gonna check out your website to cause we have two more spaces on where we have all of our tiny homes set up to put in a couple more. So I’ll be looking at that.

[00:27:59] Ken Sawyer: Awesome. We’ll hook you up with a deal.

[00:28:01] Cris Risley: All right.

[00:28:06] Brian Searl: Okay so just to confirm, Cris, you said the cabin rentals you have at your park are rented more often than the unique container homes?

[00:28:14] Cris Risley: Yeah, a little bit. Yeah.

[00:28:15] Brian Searl: Okay.

[00:28:16] Cris Risley: right now in, in season from Memorial Day to Labor Day, they’re all booked all the time. There, I can’t find a, almost, it’d be hard to find more than one day in a row where I could get somebody in there.

[00:28:28] Brian Searl: It’s interesting to me that you say I just, that piques my interest because we do a lot with, Sandy does, Sandy keeps doing data, we do a different kind of data, right? But we’ve looked at some of those different models and every data point that we’ve seen tends to lean toward the more unique an accommodation, the more people want to try it. Doesn’t mean they’ll necessarily come back a second time, but it means they want to try it because they’ve never tried something before.

[00:28:51] Cris Risley: Exactly. No I would agree with that to, to, to a degree. Yeah. It it just comes into because some of our cabins will sleep eight, some will sleep four, one will sleep two comfortably. But most of them all have a pull out couch too, so I guess it’s four. But it gets, it gets to what you want. If you’ve got, a couple of kids, you want a little bit bigger one where, the, like I say, the 40-foot container, it’s got two rooms, but the one room is really small.

 And the cube, the one we call the cube, the mine for us, it’s two 20-foots and it’s just, it’s basically like a hotel room, hotel suite is all it really is. 

[00:29:23] Jeff Hoffman: Okay. Like the bathroom is bigger than the bedroom.

[00:29:27] Sandy Ellingson: Cris, do you have any feeling for how many people are booking the cabins that are traveling with somebody else that has an RV and maybe they don’t versus just independently booking the cabins?

[00:29:38] Cris Risley: We don’t necessarily, I could, we do track that to a degree or we are aware of that. There, it happens a lot because we have big bunch of groups that will come in. And people that don’t have an RV, they’ll want to be a part of the group. So we do have a couple of spots where they can actually park next to the to the cabins and they have a or they can just right across from them there. But that does happen quite often.

[00:30:03] Sandy Ellingson: Okay.

[00:30:05] Brian Searl: So what else do you have going on at your park, Cris?

[00:30:07] Cris Risley: So we have a, we have an 18-hole golf course, which all our cabins are on the 18th hole there right on the green. We have a huge I think it’s the largest lazy river in in Oregon. And a pool and in the big pool and lazy river on property.

 So that’s a big draw.

[00:30:26] Brian Searl: Is it a moving lazy river or is it like you have to do all the work? Okay, cause that was my, like I remember when I was, I don’t want to say I was a kid, but I had to have been a lot younger than I was now. I think I had taken my stepdaughter to a, oh, a water park or whatever. I think it was SeaWorld in Sandusky, Jeff, in Ohio. I think that’s where it was.

[00:30:43] Jeff Hoffman: Oh, okay. I know that.

[00:30:45] Brian Searl: Or maybe, I don’t know, whatever, it was some kind of water park anyway. Like I remember the two differences between lazy rivers. The ones I hated were the ones you got in and they were beautiful, but you had to paddle yourself somehow. And they weren’t really lazy, I felt like you had to do work. And then there was the one that I went to, I can’t remember what park it was, it just had enough of a current that was strong enough that you could just sit back and actually be lazy. That’s the one I like.

[00:31:05] Cris Risley: No, we, our, we have three jets three pumps that we can turn on that can actually move it around. We typically run with just two, but it goes around pretty good.

[00:31:14] Brian Searl: Okay. Yeah. I’d enjoy that. I’m definitely coming to visit.

[00:31:20] Cris Risley: Oh, come on down.

[00:31:21] Brian Searl: Sounds like I’m going right at the perfect season.

[00:31:24] Cris Risley: Oh yeah.

[00:31:25] Brian Searl: Are you driving right now, Sandy? You’re in the chair.

[00:31:27] Sandy Ellingson: no we’re parked right now. If we were driving, I’d be turning the wheel towards Oregon already.

[00:31:33] Brian Searl: That’s what I’m saying. You gotta go out, take your cell phone, go out, disconnect, let’s go. Lazy river.

[00:31:39] Sandy Ellingson: Listen, next month I’ll show you a video of Cris’s park.

[00:31:43] Jeff Hoffman: cris, how big is your park? How many sites?

[00:31:46] Cris Risley: originally we got approved for 150 sites but we right now have 76 76 sites to include our cottages. Okay. The ownership the ownership, they own a sand and gravel company which is we’re on that property. In fact, I mean it’s a hundred yards over my right shoulder is where it’s at. And so they’re gonna actually pick that up and move that whole outfit over to, they have another asphalt plant, they’re gonna go move that 10 miles away. Then we’re gonna build up, cause we have the South Umpqua River that we’re adjacent to here, which is really truly the slowest, the biggest lazy river in Oregon is the South Umpqua.

 But we’re gonna start building up around that too. So the other 80 some odd spaces.

[00:32:30] Sandy Ellingson: So are you finding that… I’m sorry.

[00:32:35] Brian Searl: Cris, are you finding that most of the people that come are coming for the golf and just happen to be RVers?

[00:32:42] Cris Risley: in, we’re gonna do right around 30,000 rounds of golf this year. And if the numbers hold true, it’ll be probably about 24% of all the rounds are gonna be RVers.

[00:32:55] Sandy Ellingson: Okay.

[00:32:57] Cris Risley: But most of the RVers are coming for the RV experience and the lazy river, to be fair.

[00:33:02] Sandy Ellingson: Are you doing any events around golfing?

[00:33:05] Cris Risley: we do a lot of outside events, tournaments and things of that nature.

[00:33:09] Sandy Ellingson: And do they have to be a part coming and staying in the campground or you just let them use the golf course?

[00:33:15] Cris Risley: they, they can both ways. We, you can come in and stay and play golf or just pass through and play golf. We get a lot of people that’ll come to go to the Bandon Dunes Resort. They’ll fly into Eugene and then come down and play us on the way in or play us on the way back out. And same with California, they’ll come up and head over there. 

[00:33:37] Jeff Hoffman: Yeah, I might have to come out and take a look at your property.

[00:33:40] Cris Risley: Yeah, come on out. It was it, you could see it everywhere. In fact, when we had a major flood last year last March, and it, 85% of the golf course was underwater. And the water came really close to the RV park. In fact, we had some people staying in the RV park still at the time, they didn’t leave, and they were on an island for about three days before the water receded enough so we could get them out.

 But and so we had to replant everything and do a bunch of different things. But we’ll go on spots on the golf course out there and you’ll go down eight inches and oh, there’s a big chunk of asphalt. There’s, where we’ve had to come back and people bring fill, fill dirt back in and it it’s pretty unique. That’s our whole theme is a mining type theme around everywhere. 

[00:34:23] Jeff Hoffman: Yeah, cause we’ve, I’ve done some projects on reclaimed land before and I always have rocks coming back up through the surface or concrete with rebar and it’s oh, that’s not even supposed to be here, but.

[00:34:37] Cris Risley: Yeah. In fact, we made a big we call it the chiminea. We took a cement truck, the mixing tube on a cement truck, turned it upside down or on its end cut big holes in it and then put I don’t know, propane heating elements in the bottom of it. So we have a 1 million BTU furnace in there that we, and we built a pavilion around it for people to come and hang out in. And that’s right next to our chim, our tiny homes over there. And that’s, fire that up on a timer and all that. Like I say, everything’s themed towards mining and concrete and things like that.

[00:35:11] Jeff Hoffman: Okay. Sounds interesting.

[00:35:14] Cris Risley: Yeah.

[00:35:15] Brian Searl: what have you seen as far as like how the, has anything changed this year as far as the economy or occupancy or consumer behavior? Are they sticking closer to home? Are they, have you noticed anything on the RV cabin side or is it pretty much the same for you?

[00:35:27] Cris Risley: pretty much the same. It’s a slight increase actually, to be fair, because we’re still relatively new. We opened July 10th of 21 with 10 holes of golf and then July of 22 with the full 18. So we’re still getting our name out there. But we are finding, or we’re assuming that people will, would rather come do a, instead of taking a big long trip somewhere, they could take a shorter trip and come stay here on a vacation three, four, five days, however long it is, cheaper than they can go to, some other big long destination place.

[00:35:50] Brian Searl: For sure. Okay. Good. Glad to hear that. What else we got going on, Jeff and Sandy? What else do you want to talk about for the rest of the show?

[00:36:00] Jeff Hoffman: I know Sandy, this had been a point of interest for you, is the new electrical code that’s coming up with the RVs and trying to inform campground owners about it’s not that bad, but you’re gonna have to prep to get ready for it. You’ve got a window, but, and attrition is gonna cover you for a while, but eventually everything’s gonna have to be this way.

[00:36:29] Sandy Ellingson: Yeah, and there is a lot of new changes coming out. By the time information gets put out and then RVIA or whoever does a press release, it’s already old and it’s bad. So I’m actually working with multiple associations right now directly with the people that are writing the code to give them the information they need because so much false information is coming out.

 And basically when the NEC changes it, we know it right then. We don’t have to wait for somebody else to tell us what’s going on. But you’re absolutely right. The parks do need to be aware of it. It is a major change in the code. And so just because you’re building a new park and putting in new 50 amp posts does not mean that you will pass the code.

 Because if they’re not using, there’s three standards to the code now. One of them relates to the RV park. If you are not building to the RV park code, you will fail. Which means that any new unit that comes in and plugs in will not operate. Yeah. So the first thing is just letting people know this could happen. And if you have somebody complaining that they’re not getting power, that’s the first thing to check.

 The other thing is not to panic because now they’ve moved the date out to 2028. And we’re still out to 2028 now. The other thing is that first year there’s probably only going to be 30,000 units total of the 350,000 they’ll produce that are gonna have this new setup in it. So we don’t have to panic, but we do need to be ready and understand it.

 And and the numbers keep changing, so there’s no way to actually tell them what to, what dollar amount to prepare for yet. So I’m telling them just if they just set aside $1,000, every quarter potentially and just set it aside, that should equal one, the setup for one, if everything is needed, if all the guts and everything have to be replaced.

 Just be ready.

[00:38:34] Jeff Hoffman: Set up for one site?

[00:38:35] Sandy Ellingson: Yes, and I’m way overestimating. Because right now they’re saying potentially 500. And where some of these questions come in is any electrician gonna be able to come in and do it? Is a DIYer campground owner gonna be able to do it? Is it gonna require a special installation?

 I think what’s on the table right now, what they want is special installation. Which what that means is if you’re an electrician and you’re certified, you can take an online course, get certified, it’s not expensive, I think it’s maybe 150 bucks. But then you can only order the parts to retrofit these old posts if you have a certification.

 So it’s gonna be quite a while before the DIYer is gonna be able to buy anything on an aftermarket without a certification. So we just need to watch for that. But again, it means, setting aside, I tell my parks, think through your most, popular sites and make sure one of those sites is actually going to be ready from day one.

 And then hold that as long as you can, so that if somebody does come in.

[00:39:47] Jeff Hoffman: So what you’re saying is park owners basically have two choices. They can either save some money and jump through a bunch of regulations, or they can just say, forget all the new people, we just want people with older than 10 years RVs and we’ll be fine for 10 years.

[00:40:00] Sandy Ellingson: and that’s the other thing. One of the things that I’m talking to all the property management softwares about is will they consider putting into their reservation software, like if a site is whatever this new code number is, certified. So for instance, if someone is searching and it has a, cause we’re already collecting year, make, model. So if we’re collecting the year, it can actually prompt and say, ‘Does your coach require this?’ And they will know it because they’re gonna put stickers on it, because we forced that through. It’ll have a sticker on it. So they will know. They, we can just tell them easily go look at your hookup, if you have this sticker, you’re gonna have to have this kind of hookup.

 That way at least a guest won’t make a reservation on a site that they will not be able to hook up to and it takes that pain away from the park. Now, it also will lose the park that reservation. They have to understand that. But at least they’re not dealing with somebody who’s coming in and mad at them.

 The other thing it’ll do for my parks is, as sad as it is losing that reservation, I want to set it in so that there’ll be a report inside each of the property management softwares that says, you lost a reservation today because. And so then my parks can start doing their own analysis and saying, look, I lost 10 site nights this month. Because I think for a lot of parks, it’s gonna be months before they’re actually hit with it. Because it’s such a small percentage of overall traffic. But we just need to be ready and understand it.

[00:41:37] Jeff Hoffman: and I think what you’re talking about, Sandy, is that they don’t have to panic because it’s going to be a slow attrition of the market over a 10-year period. So they’ve got 10 years to retrofit almost all of their sites. But in, in the next year or two, they should at least get 10 to 15 sites ready for the new vehicles. So that they can accommodate them. And that cuts down the cost.

 If you can do that now—

[00:42:10] Sandy Ellingson: No, you cannot do it now. No, you cannot do anything now. The device that’s gonna go on the unit is not even created and approved yet. So therefore you can’t create the, the adapter or whatever because we don’t have that. That’s why it’s pushed out to 2028 now. Then you gotta find the people, the supplier who’s gonna make that unit for the OEMs, and then the one that’s gonna make it for the retrofitting. So we’re still a while out. But again, it’s so much easier if they’ll just set a little bit aside for that, then they’ll be ready.

[00:42:47] Jeff Hoffman: What is the, for those who don’t know the backstory to this, what is the purpose of the RV industry doing this or pushing this? Why this change?

[00:42:57] Sandy Ellingson: ultimately the bottom line came from liability and safety. That’s what RVIA is responsible for, is codes and standards relating to liability and safety. And so we had so many newer units going into parks where the, they didn’t have the proper electrical. And so some of those, fires that happened and things like that caused the UL board to start looking at, do we need something else, I think.

 And so kind of Pandora’s box got opened, they started looking at it, and then they said, hey, let’s just, because we’re getting bigger, more powerful units or even smaller, more powerful units let’s look at the code altogether. And so that’s what they did. They started looking at the code itself and said, let’s rewrite all of it.

 And then of course RVIA jumped in and has tried to help because yes, they do work on the industry side, but they understand this is gonna impact the campground side. So they’re trying to make campgrounds aware of it early enough that they can do something actionable.

[00:44:02] Jeff Hoffman: I’m thinking about this from the consumer perspective. If I’m a consumer and let’s just say this gets implemented in 2028, maybe in the 2029 model year I can buy one of these. And then I’m ready to go out camping and I realize I can only go to 2% of the places in the entire United States. If I could go with my new RV, I’m gonna be pissed.

[00:44:18] Sandy Ellingson: and that is, it’s, right now the date is spring launch of 2028 when they’ll be out there. That’s the date that they’re working towards now. But you’re absolutely right. I would be very concerned if I bought this unit and there was nowhere I could go because there is no backing down. There’s no retrofit. If you buy this unit, you absolutely cannot plug into a standard 50 amp setup. It has to have this new GFI interrupt in it.

[00:44:49] Jeff Hoffman: That’s gonna be a mess.

[00:44:51] Sandy Ellingson: Yeah.

[00:44:52] Jeff Hoffman: That’s gonna be a mess.

[00:44:53] Sandy Ellingson: That’s why we’re trying to get all the information out and get the information out right. Because of course, I’m using AI all the time and there’s a huge value to it, but every time somebody posts something, AI is writing an article and putting it out there on a blog automatically that nobody’s looking at. And there is so much disinformation that it is really creating a panic.

[00:45:15] Brian Searl: You know what I think is easier, Sandy? I thought about this the whole time you were talking. I think the easiest solution is to just buy a Freedom Yurt Cabin and you don’t have the problems.

[00:45:27] Ken Sawyer: Exactly.

[00:45:30] Garrett Sawyer: I’ll plug that right in there.

[00:45:34] Brian Searl: All right, let’s spend the last let’s spend the last few minutes asking each other questions like we typically do. So we’ll start with you, Jeff. Jeff, do you have a question for either Ken and Garrett, Sandy, or Cris?

[00:45:43] Jeff Hoffman: Cris, the I look at the size of your park, it’s 76 sites. And you have a lazy river. Do you have a pool also?

[00:45:57] Cris Risley: Yep. Yes, sir.

[00:45:58] Jeff Hoffman: Okay. Because I’m trying to take the cost of the lazy river and the pool and sum of that over top of having only 76 sites. And trying to figure out the ROI on that. Obviously you’re doing well and you’re also gonna have West Coast rates, which helps. But it just, that’s a lot of capital investment. If you’re growing, I understand it. If you’re gonna go up to almost double size, I understand it, but.

[00:46:26] Brian Searl: So what’s your question?

[00:46:28] Jeff Hoffman: my question is how they figured out what amenities to put in.

[00:46:40] Sandy Ellingson: They dredge sand. They dredge sand. They just dig it out.

[00:46:41] Brian Searl: How to figure out the ROI to justify the investment in it, is your question?

[00:46:44] Jeff Hoffman: Yes.

[00:46:45] Brian Searl: Okay.

[00:46:47] Cris Risley: when we first built this, it wasn’t really, the, we didn’t want a square pool. And our pool designer is a local guy from here that came in and he’s yeah, I’ll do something neat, right? I’ll do something pretty awesome. And it just kept growing and growing. And it just got to something that no one, none of us expected it to be what it is.

 And then once you’re in at one point, at a certain thing we’re in for a penny, in for a pound. Yeah, it’s, it is pretty, pretty, it’s hard to describe it. You really have to see it. And I think on our website there’s some good pictures of it, but it still doesn’t do it justice. It is pretty, pretty awesome.

 As far as the return on investment there, I don’t think we’ve calculated that out yet. It’s gonna be there. And this is a family owned property that they have zero intention of selling. I think grandkids will be dealing with that, owning and operating this for years to come.  

[00:47:41] Jeff Hoffman: Yeah. It’s just that I l- I look at stuff and, you know, Sandy kind of knows this, that I’m financially driven on almost every decision, but sometimes aesthetics takes precedence and, you know, the cust- the guest experience, so.

[00:47:58] Cris Risley: Well, that-

[00:47:59] Jeff Hoffman: And I like where you guys went.

[00:48:01] Cris Risley: That’s exactly what … Where, where it turned out to be, where it’s just, well, you know, I mean, it is, it is kind of over the top type of neat. ‘Cause everything’s concrete when you look at it in there, 

[00:48:11] Jeff Hoffman: mm-hmm …

[00:48:11] Cris Risley: from a … Oh, that’s a wood, wood structure or anything like that.  And it’s, no, that’s actually all concrete. You know, they-

[00:48:17] Jeff Hoffman: Yeah …

[00:48:17] Cris Risley: carved it out to make it look like wood and all that stuff. And I mean, it’s … And everything on it is designed, … There’s something or it goes back to something. We have three little bridges, you know, not so little bridge, but three gridges in the, in the Lazy River.

And they’re all mimicking something on the course or, or something around. I mean, it’s all-

[00:48:37] Jeff Hoffman: It’s themed …

[00:48:38] Cris Risley: I would encourage everyone, I mean, just to see it, I mean, it’s, it is pretty neat. So. 

[00:48:41] Jeff Hoffman: You yeah. And I assume also you had connections with concrete companies and stuff, so your cost was probably a little less than other people.

[00:48:51] Cris Risley: Yeah, it was just, 200 yard concrete drive over to dump the concrete. 

[00:48:55] Brian Searl: I think what your answer is, Jeff, is that he’s operating his campground like an AI company. They’ll just trust that one day they’ll make money and they can spend billions and the ROI will eventually be there. That’s the new way of doing finances, Jeff. You don’t actually need to have a plan.

[00:49:11] Jeff Hoffman: Hope is the plan.

[00:49:12] Cris Risley: that’s, I am an aging out analog AI will replace me.

[00:49:16] Brian Searl: Just go public and take everybody’s money and then it’ll be fine. You’ll, one day you’ll figure it out.

[00:49:22] Jeff Hoffman: I don’t have many days left.

[00:49:25] Sandy Ellingson: Okay next. I have a question.

[00:49:27] Brian Searl: we gotta get to you, Sandy. Hold on. Cris has gotta ask a question. We gotta go in order. Cris, you gotta ask a question first. So Cris, do you have a question for Jeff or Ken and Garrett?

[00:49:36] Cris Risley: I do for Ken and Garrett there is like, how, if, let’s say we ordered a yurt, how long would it take to, to have it built and shipped to us?

[00:49:47] Ken Sawyer: Our average is basically 60 to 90 days out, depending on what time of year. Obviously during the middle of summer is the worst time to place an order because that’s our busiest season. If you wanted to, you wanted the cabins up and running for next year by all means, put a fall order in, we can build it over the winter. And they’ll be ready to ship when you are, when the roads are clear and the land’s cleared ready to go. But if you wanted one, place the order today, how soon can I have it? We’re a month or two out right now. 

[00:50:22] Brian Searl: All right, Ken and Garrett, do you have a question for Sandy or Jeff? We’re doing process of elimination here, so everybody gets a question.

[00:50:34] Ken Sawyer: Oh I love what you guys do. The Fireside Chats are great and if I can work with any of you guys on the sidelines, by all means, we can connect.

[00:50:46] Brian Searl: that’s a statement. Do you have a question for Jeff or Sandy? Anything you want to ask?

[00:50:51] Ken Sawyer: No 

[00:50:51] Brian Searl: how long ago did you begin that project, or working on it? That would be like, that could be a question, but sorry, please, go ahead.

[00:50:59] Ken Sawyer: How long ago did you begin that project, Cris?

[00:51:04] Cris Risley: oh, it’s about, it was about now probably 12 years, 12 to 15 years ago. We opened the golf course in 2021, it was July 10th of 2021, 10 holes. And then we wanted to open the RV park sooner. The RV park’s been running for three years now, the pool two years. And we’ve had people staying in the RV park before we were even done. But officially we opened, like I say, 10 July of 21, and then 10 July of 22 we opened up a full 18. And really started getting people to stay. And then this is probably our second real year of having the full, the RV park basically done. We just finished off adding eight more what we call overflow spots. They’re pouring asphalt right now as we speak. 

[00:51:54] Ken Sawyer: Awesome. Yeah I love the concept that you got going on.

[00:51:59] Cris Risley: Thank you.

[00:52:02] Sandy Ellingson: Hey, I have a hard stop at three, Brian, so I’ve got to drop.

[00:52:05] Brian Searl: Ask your question real quick before you go.

[00:52:08] Sandy Ellingson: my, I was gonna ask you, what’s the most current project you have going on that’s the hottest newest thing? Cause you’re my lead on AI, so I always have to get my inside scoop from you.

[00:52:20] Brian Searl: I don’t know. I’m actually like, honestly, I have, like I do play with AI every single day. I know. I’m too much into AI. Like I’ve been using AI to code things. So that’s where we’re focused on is like the data research side of figuring out how to provide analytics and research and proprietary information to campgrounds. That kind of stuff. Like using AI to, to do the coding piece of that. Cause AI models are pretty much stable where they are right now. Like you’re gonna see leaps, and then those leaps will get taken away by the federal government who shuts down Claude’s newest model. But there’s leaps somewhere that we don’t have access to. But it’s pretty much the same now. Everything’s, like there will be advancements, but you’re not gonna see a leap up in like better writing or better coding, it’s just gonna be incremental now. So I think now we just build stuff with it.

[00:53:04] Sandy Ellingson: All right. Bye guys. It was nice to meet all of you.

[00:53:08] Brian Searl: Bye Sandy. Thank you. Nice to meet you. Nice to talk to you. Jeff, any final thoughts and then where can they learn more about Camp Strategy?

[00:53:15] Jeff Hoffman: I think my final thoughts is this is gonna be an interesting season. Don’t get discouraged. The people are still out there. You might want to bring your marketing in a little closer. Unless we get a change in the gas prices, which might be coming here shortly. But we’re finding the travel windows are, have cut down a little bit, so you might want to pull your marketing in just a little bit to reach people that are, and concentrate in an area that’s not too far a drive.

[00:53:52] Brian Searl: And where can they learn more about Camp Strategy?

[00:53:54] Jeff Hoffman: you can go to campstrategy.com. That’s our website. It’s just been revamped, so it should be an awesome new looking site.

[00:54:05] Brian Searl: Awesome. Thanks for being here as always, Jeff. Cris, any final thoughts and where can they learn more about your campground, RV park, and golf resort?

[00:54:12] Cris Risley: No, just just our website at barrungolf.com. And thanks for having me. It’s nice to meet everybody. Really appreciate it.

[00:54:19] Brian Searl: Thanks for being here, Cris. I appreciate you. And last but not least, Ken and Garrett, where can they, any final thoughts and where can they learn more about Freedom Yurt Cabins?

[00:54:28] Ken Sawyer: We’ve actually just launched a new website also about two months ago. And it’s got a cabin builder on it, so you can actually go and design your own cabin, colors, etc. And at the close it gives you a PDF right there to, also emails the guys and lets them know that you’re interested and.

[00:54:48] Brian Searl: Cool. What’s your website?

[00:54:53] Ken Sawyer: freedomyurtcabins.com.

[00:54:54] Brian Searl: Okay, awesome. Thank you guys. I appreciate you joining us for another episode of MC Fireside Chats. Normally we’d be doing another podcast later this this afternoon with Scott Bahr from Outwired, but we both have some previous commitments, things that we got going on, so we’re gonna skip this week. We’ll be back next week.

Other than that, thank you for joining us for another episode of MC Fireside Chats. Appreciate everybody being here and we’ll see you all next week. Take care guys.

[00:55:12] Garrett Sawyer: Awesome.

[00:55:13] Jeff Hoffman: Great seeing you, Brian.