MC Fireside Chats – February 21st, 2024

This is MC Fireside Chats, a weekly show featuring conversations with thought leaders, entrepreneurs, and outdoor hospitality experts who share their insights to help your business succeed. Hosted by Brian Searl, the founder and CEO of Insider Perks, empowered by insights from modern Campground, the most innovative news source in the industry.

Brian Searl: Welcome everybody to another episode of MC Fireside Chats. My name’s Brian [00:01:00] Searl with Insider Perks. Super excited to be here with you for our campground owner focused episode. Third week of every month. Excited to welcome back some of our occurring guests. Whitney Scott from KOA, Candice McNamara from Staylist, Joe Duemig from App My Community and to special guests here, Joe Moore and Troy Haney. Is it Haney? 

Troy Haney: Yeah. Yep. 

Brian Searl: Alright, awesome. So we’ve got some unique people here and some interesting conversations to have. Let’s just briefly maybe go around the room and reintroduce everybody if you’d like to, and we’ll start with our occurring guests. Whitney, you wanna start or? 

Whitney Scott: Sure. My name is Whitney Scott. I’m the Senior Vice President of Strategy at Kampgrounds of America, so I look over corporate PR as well as research and just long-term visioning for the company as we grow. 

Brian Searl: Awesome. Excited to have you here. Whitney, Candice. 

Candice McNamara: Sure. Hey, I’m Candice McNamara.

I’m the Chief Growth Officer at Staylist as well as a partner. So we provide a really intuitive software that helps run operations, reservation software, [00:02:00] 

Brian Searl: Mr. Joe, 

Joe Duemig: Joe Duemig. I am the founder and owner of App My Community. We make mobile apps for campgrounds to deal with communication and guest engagement.

Brian Searl: I’m sorry, I didn’t mean you Joe, but go ahead Joe. I told them all I was gonna do that in the back end. Sorry. Go ahead, Joe. Moore, I think we’re lagging Joe 

Joe Moore: Joe Moore and operator and operate and manage.

Brian Searl: Yeah. Joe, I think we’re having hearing you. I don’t know if it’s just me. Okay. Yeah, we’re lagging, so we’ll come back to you. 

Joe Moore: Morris Campground Consulting. 

Brian Searl: Morris Campground Consulting. Joe Moore has been in the industry forever, serves on the Ohio board of directors. I did your intro for you, Joe.

Consultant, but we’re lagging and having trouble hearing you, Joe. So I dunno if you can maybe refresh or Troy. Yeah. Hi, Troy 

Troy Haney: up in Car Main owner of Kacie’s Campground, i new campground last year. And it’s supposed to be [00:03:00] away events. I co-owner of that. 

Brian Searl: Am I broken or is Troy’s audio weird to you? It’s possible I’m broken. 

Joe Duemig: Yeah. No it’s it’s doing the same for me. 

Brian Searl: Okay. All right. Troy, I’m sorry we, it was a little bit breaking up for us, so do you wanna try again or, 

Troy Haney: yeah. Troy Haney, the owner of Kacie’s Campground, we, that was built this past year, also owned Spud’s Speedway and the Grim Center up in Caramame.

Brian Searl: Yeah, it’s still a little bit, it’s still a little bit choppy. Maybe just try to refresh and rejoin or something, but we got the most of it. So Troy’s from Kacie’s Campground, he is got a really interesting and compelling story to tell us about how he got his campground started. It’s, I’m really excited to, to hear it and.

And all that, plays out. Before we get to that I know we’re having trouble here with Troy and Joe’s audio for our recurring guests. Is there anything that’s come across your desk since you’ve last been on the show? I know Whitney’s been a couple months. Obviously KOA is doing a lot of great things with their research reports, and I think the North American camping report is coming up.

I’ve been trying to like, get Scott to tell [00:04:00] me what’s in it. He won’t. I’ve threatened him. I’ve tried everything in my book. He says it’s private. He’s got an NDA. 

Whitney Scott: I’m glad Scott’s got it under wraps. Yes, it will come out in the next couple of months. Obviously we keep everybody abreast as things develop from our monthly report which has come out with some great detail over the last couple of months.

Camping campers are coming out a little stronger from a travel perspective which sometimes from the campground industry, there’s. We don’t see that in the bookings. It’s really about campers just traveling. And they’re traveling more and they booked a higher percentage of campers have booked some sort of travel already this year, which is great.

Into that shows, for the entire travel industry, which we are a part of. And what we’re also seeing is that there’s this trend towards some more family booking and group bookings. So a lot of these first time, [00:05:00] these first bookings in 2024 are family reunions, their birthdays, their times to get together.

And that’s really exciting to see as it correlates to what people are really putting as priority in 2024. But we can dig in as you want to. But that for me is the highlight we’re seeing. Right off the bat here this year. 

Brian Searl: Let’s do that for a second. We might as well, we’ve gotta start somewhere.

So let’s talk about, obviously it’s been a couple months. You’ve got probably a ton of data that I should have probably read and haven’t had time to do anything. But I’ve skimmed over some of it. And so tell us I guess it’s been since 2023, so let’s start with this, right? What does the outlook look like for 2024 for you from a KOA perspective?

Just as an industry as a whole, like from KOA’s perspective of that. 

Whitney Scott: Yeah. The outlook really good. It looks really good for camping. I, there’s a lot of intent to camp, which is great as we’re seeing. We’ve seen really good numbers coming from [00:06:00] November and December in the entire camping base, winter camping.

I’ve been on this winter camping soapbox for a while, but we’re really seeing those people. Not only having intent to camp during the winter months, but they’re actually going now we’re tracking that they’re actually going out there. And these, this group of campers have the strongest intent to keep camping throughout the year.

So there’s just, and it this in this group doubled in one year, which is why it’s so impressive. It went from about 15% to 30% in one year. And it’s not just about snowboarding. It’s really this person who is, who will camp no matter what, no matter where. It’s usually a rate related to some sort of winter activity, whether that is going to a beach or hunting, fishing in colder areas.

So I have heard [00:07:00] anecdotally as well at some of the shows this over the ca past few months, that a lot of the buzz around winter camping is there aren’t a lot of campgrounds open. Or marketing that they’re available to utilize in northern parts of the nation and in Canada where people do want to winter camp.

Brian Searl: So without giving away any secrets, ’cause obviously there’s benefits to being a KOA franchisee, right? Without giving away any secrets, what are some suggestions you’re making to your properties on if they are open during the winter, how to make that more visible to consumers? 

Whitney Scott: Yeah, there, there’s some, there just simple ways, are you saying that you’re closed?

Because that’s the easiest way to deter campers from staying for with you. And I think there’s just a conversation between campground owners is, am I closed because my full amenity set isn’t open? My pool’s not open. I may not have, a jumping pad. So [00:08:00] am I really open? But I think for this winter camper there, the expectation, at least in the northern part.

Of our nation and in Canada they wouldn’t expect that. So it’s just more of a learning and teaching process. And it’s also correlating with the activities. So the last few reports have actually given a lot of what this winter camper is looking for. And so if you do, if you are near hunting fishing holes, if you do have like winter snowshoeing activities, you’re next to a ski hill potentially more in that mid range, that kind of sunbelt-y area, making sure that you’re talking about what is open, why it’s important.

Maybe it is a little bit cooler than usual in your area, but layers and fires are part of the experience of camping. So it’s really just kinda switching your mindset, from an operational perspective. It doesn’t work for everybody and I think that’s okay. [00:09:00] Winter rising a campground is hard.

Opening a portion of it for winter is even harder if you were in a northern state. So I think there’s just things to talk through and think about, is it right for me? The other, what is important to know as we look at it, ’cause we’re mostly RVing, is that the top three pe types of campers that are utilizing winter camping are people that are looking to stay hut to hut, which is a type of camping that’s like really popular in Colorado and Michigan.

So that’s more of a hiking, they’re looking at public lands, but number three is RVing. So there is like a very healthy opportunity out there as this is trending and potentially can continue to grow. Wait, what’s number two? You said it’s backcountry? Tenting actually. So it’s interesting we’ve had a couple people, 

Brian Searl: I’m sorry, you were just lagged.

I didn’t mean to cut you off. Go ahead. No you’re fine. I was just saying, we had a couple [00:10:00] people on the show, I think we had a lady last week who was from Minnesota who had the main portion of her campground with a, water, electric sewer hookups. And then she also had a carving through the woods of where you had to it was rustic, but you had to maybe take a four wheel to get there.

So she was serving kind of two different types of audiences. But I think we’ve seen some of those, we’ve talked to some of those people on the show before, just people who are trying to expand into that winter camping area. And I think, and correct me if I’m wrong, but I think that as we see this shift, and I know that’s a broad term, all encompassing for all the things that are happening in outdoor hospitality over the last few years, but as we see the shift in some of the consolidation to more corporate owned.

But some of the new blood coming in, even from younger generations, I think there’s more of an appetite to stay open longer versus the I’ve been running this for 40 years and for thirty-five years. I’ve always gone to Florida for six months to get away from those terrible campers who leave me bad reviews.

And, but I think that mindset’s changing a little bit, right? 

Whitney Scott: I do think so for sure. It’s, it, there’s, this is also just different types of campers. They [00:11:00] have different expectations. It’s very much, camping is becoming very much more experiential. So it’s what can I do while I’m camping, not just camping, is everything I’m going to do, and this kind of lends itself to it, is I want to do something.

I’m outdoorsy, I wanna do something in the winter and can camping help me do it. So as business owners, I think you’re right that there’s a lot of corporate ownership that is looking about how do we stay open laundry. I do think that, even those. Mom and pop shops, they didn’t, I don’t think there was the camper there before.

So now if the camper, if this continues and this becomes a larger market, I think we’ll see some of those people being like, could we staff with one person? Because we don’t have all those amenities and needs to service while we still take our vacation in Florida. ’cause everybody needs a break.

Brian Searl: Yeah, and I mean I think that’s the importance of the work that you do at KOA [00:12:00] with your research reports and obviously your franchisees and the education and all that is just, you’re one of the most visible organizations obviously in the industry. And for you to be able to say to not only the owners of the parks, look here’s an opportunity, but to the campers that now you’re starting to see more of these parks open because we’re educating the owners that there are opportunities, like we’re just pushing against headwinds where there just wasn’t that audience for a long time.

Probably honestly because of both things. ’cause we could always go skiing and snow-shoeing, but there was never, yeah, the internet to disseminate that information to everyone. And to 

Whitney Scott: your point, Brian, too, there wasn’t the gear that there, 10 years ago. The gear level of ability from, even from a heat perspective, it has really helped the ability for people to be out in the outdoors much longer in different temperatures.

I think as RV manufacturing looks at this, a lot of the majority of RVs aren’t necessarily meant for snow winter camping. So [00:13:00] that is another opportunity as we look at this kind of bigger camping LA landscape. We had, 

Brian Searl: And I don’t wanna go too far into this, but we had somebody on the show, maybe a month or two ago, a couple people probably who would make some of those, they’re not an Elkhart, but they make some of the smaller more rugged.

Travel trailers are intended to go snow, mountains, BLM land, stuff like that. And one of the things I pitched him was like, there’s this huge opportunity, and I talked about your report for winter camping to we need a vehicle for people to go camping in. Like certainly some of these rigs are capable of being there, but if you’re gonna go, then there needs to be an opportunity for people to do that sometimes without the hookups because the pipes aren’t very far enough.

So yeah, it’s an interesting, there’s definitely people out there that can come together to make it happen. So I was gonna go to Joe. Oh, Joe’s back now. He keeps disappearing. He’s like teasing us. Can we hear you? Can you hear us, Joe?

I think we might still be lagged. All right, let’s go to Troy. So Troy, can you [00:14:00] wanna try to talk again? See if we can hear you.

I can’t hear you all now, but you’re not stuttery, so maybe you’re just muted.

All right, Candace, tell us what’s new in your world while we’re waiting on these guys. Alright, can you hear 

Candice McNamara: me? Yes. Okay, perfect. Okay. Actually, I was taking little notes. Winnie, we’re seeing the exact same thing over at Staylist. I think some of the really cool features that we’re seeing is that generational pull.

Now of course we’re in, more of the property management software area. But I would say one of the really unique features that I’ve seen over the last I would say two or three quarters is generational handoffs of property to millennials and a couple of other different group bases.

So more of adaptation to new technologies and big conversations around marketing and automation for the first time where that used to be like the scary touch part. Now people are really interested in it and they really understand it and they’re adapting to it. So I would say that I feel the exact same way [00:15:00] I am that backpacker.

So I’m the girl that likes to get out there and experience the woods and. Really do that. But I have to admit that I have a lot of friends right now that are also remotely going on the roads and staying at some of these campgrounds and really kinda giving feedback in real time. Another you’re asking about trends, right?

I just wanna make sure I’m asking about anything you wanna talk about. This seems interest, anything I wanna talk about. Okay. Other really cool features, exactly what Whitney was saying around electricity 10 years ago, five, even five years ago. Talking about these companies like Wild Energy and MarineSync, really automating those processes and being able to winterize those parks has definitely become something totally different.

It’s really expedited over the last, from last season or last winter to this winter of people not really needing all the bells and whistles, but really wanting to winterize those, even transient parks that they have, and then using them interchangeably where it’s, 50% of the year or whatever the time that they’re out.

Wanting to use automations, wanting to use electricity, generational handoffs. So parks that are going from one hand to the other and [00:16:00] almost more of a a Disneyland effect when they actually go back into season. So the splash pads and everything that Whitney had mentioned they’re working around different optimizing ways.

And that’s been really interesting to see. The other thing too, to speak to some of those trends is we’ve seen a really big jump in groups and sometimes even overnights and deposit policy changes. So those are just a couple of small trends that I’ve seen that I could definitely pinpoint and say we’re seeing the exact same thing, even on a software angle.

So lots of needs for more high-end features, point of sale all in one. It just seems like the industry as well as the consumers are really adapting to wanting to move fast and to actually travel more often. So I’m curious, 

Brian Searl: let’s take this from a, like I’m a campground owner and let’s pretend that I’ve decided to stay open all year.

I’ve embraced KOAs saying in their reports, I want to service winter campers. I’m doing my marketing correctly. I’m targeting the audiences. All those kinds of things. The word is out. People know I’m open. How do I adjust that seasonal transition [00:17:00] or do I need to on my things like my website, which is not really a question for you, Candice, but on my PMS system.

And then to Joe, how do I do that on my apps? And then maybe we can throw back to Whitney if she has something to add. I’m sure she will. Sure. I can 

Candice McNamara: add from a property management software it’s been exciting to see people are adapting two-way technology. So two-way texting or even documents, sending email campaigns.

That really the case as well as the policies. I think we can hear, I’m 

Brian Searl: sorry. I think we can hear Troy now. We could hear him. Oh yeah. Hey, 

Candice McNamara: Troy, we can hear you. No, you’re good. Yeah, so I would say that ways that people are really adapting to this is pre-planning is something that I’m super excited to see.

A lot of these parks are really pre-planning. I’ve been to about 13 shows this year, or I guess last year into this year. And the attendances are way up, and that’s where I’m telling, talking about some of those changes, but how they’re adapting to winterizing and transitioning that. I think a lot of it has to do with people realize, [00:18:00] wow, people are asking me and they’re getting upticks and emails and phone calls and missed messages where they used to keep those parks closed.

They’re opening it up and saying, how do I quickly winterize this? And so I think a lot of that through, at least the property management software, is via email, via text messaging marketing. 

Brian Searl: Let me, let me clarify ’cause what I’m really asking and certainly I know KOA has a great system and K-II.

Yeah. Is K-II or K is K-III coming with me. Can you tell us that? 

Whitney Scott: Probably not. Okay. I think we’re keeping with the name of K-II and just optimize. It’s hard to rebrand. 

Brian Searl: Anyway, sorry, but you guys both have good reservation systems, right? KO a’s got one stainless has one. So I think I’m more asking of the, now I’m on the website, I’ve learned about you, I know you’re open.

How do I communicate on my system where I’m showing the different site types and the amenities that yes, not only am I open, but here’s why you’re comfortable coming here because I have these amenities, or here’s a picture of someone camping in winter or here’s those kinds 

of things. 

Candice McNamara: Yeah. So I would say it’s automation.

That’s what we see is at least, and I [00:19:00] don’t wanna speak for K two or anything, but I would say that it’s chat boxing, right? So a lot of people are adapting to chat boxes, getting a lot of questions in and out, and then they’ll actually use software or their websites to target those people that are coming in and asking those questions.

So really customizing what winter looks like versus what summer looks like. 

Brian Searl: Okay. So that’s, I think what I’m getting at, right? Swap out your fall pictures of the kids playing in the water slide. Yep. For winter pictures temporarily. At what point do you make that switch? How do you prep people?

Do you change your site Amenities and descriptions? Like when you go to K-two and you look for a reservation system, and it’s been a minute since it’s been there because I don’t have to go camping anymore, but our like a thumbnail and then they list the different amenities, right? Whitney on the bottom underneath there of the site you’re looking at.

And so how do I adjust those? Do I need to swap them out? Do I need to say certain things are available for the four or five months that I’m offering winter camping, like that kind of stuff? 

Candice McNamara: Yeah, display box is a big thing. So underneath it people will say, Hey, typically our season would be this way, but we’ve actually had a lot of people going into the system, putting up Christmas [00:20:00] photos, Thanksgiving photos.

So I’m gonna give, I, I wanna pass it off to Joe though, ’cause I know Joe has that more customization when it comes to each park and its identity. 

Brian Searl: Before we spoke to apps Whitney, do you have anything from a K-two perspective? 

Whitney Scott: Yeah I think that the broader thing that we would coach any franchisee on, as they’re trying to balance different segments, different demographics, is, don’t, if you’re, especially in a growth market, which, winter camping is a very small subset of people compared to the overall peak season camping.

So knowing that even as we sit here in February, there’s opportunity in win winter camping, the majority of your bookings that are going on are probably for your peak season and whoever your growth market is. So as you play with, when am I gonna be opening winter camping? Or if I am, or how do I market it?

There’s probably a variety of things we’d be looking at. When are you gonna drive the most of those bookings and marketing [00:21:00] plays, because then you might want to work on your webpage and. Kind of work on your system, but it would, another way you might wanna do it, if you’re like, I’ve got a lot of bookings for summer season, so I really need to keep a picture of that pool.

You might say, create, a blog post or a landing page or something specific to winter camping where you drive people to, to explain the difference so that you can keep your cash cow marketing being your cash cow marketing for the majority of your bookings, and still help encourage this new growth opportunity.

Because really anyone given time, you’re talking to many people utilizing your park for many different things. You’ve got tenters, you’ve got boomers, you’ve got peak season people, fall leaf peepers, and now potentially a new winter camping market. So you really need to understand, really have a channel focus and a market segment and a plan to make sure that you aren’t [00:22:00] turning off.

Somebody by trying to grow a new segment because it’s, we all know it’s harder to grow something than to maintain what you’re already doing. 

Brian Searl: And that’s what I think that’s obviously great advice, that already, but that’s what I was going after is what is that delicate balance between, I still need to attract summer campers, so I don’t wanna swap out all my site type photos for winter for five months because they could be booking for July and January.

But is there a benefit to, I think you’re probably right on the head from a marketing standpoint, is that winter camping, separate landing page that describes what you guys have, if that’s what you’re gonna offer, or something like that, or a section. But Joe, what are you seeing? Is there like just a, is there a polar bear alert button that you put in the app or?

Joe Duemig: I don’t know. We definitely would have a couple properties that might have polar bears around, but no with the app, a lot of times most of our customers that have winter camping that aren’t. Down south they have different campers those times, right? So the campgrounds that we have mostly that do this summer, they are more [00:23:00] transient.

And then winter they go more of a long-term stay. And so they make wide like large changes to their app, where, some of our campgrounds might have day use in the winter, in the summer, but in the winter, not only do they not have day use, but all their campers are long term.

So they’re fostering a community between campers as opposed to engaging the campground with the resort for Transient is mostly engaging the campground with the resort. And then for our long-term parks, they do a little bit of that as well as fostering community between campers.

And they, when they switch off. I’m not really sure they have full control to do what they do, and I’m not positive on how and when they switch that off. But they definitely will change things to, to foster. The feel of the long-term or short-term camper, that’s what we see mostly.

But in terms of polar bear alert in Pine Valley Park, we really have to cover that, but Okay. I know, but in Pine Valley Park, in Ontario, Rosa just posted about this in our private Facebook group [00:24:00] is over Christmas they did, they changed their colors to red and green. They sent out push notification, had a a, an on their app advent calendar where they were giving stuff away every day and they would send a push notification each day and say, go to this entry and, fill out this form or click on this website or do this or that to win something.

And then just recently for the month of February, they did something related to Valentine’s Day, changed their background colors to pink and did that just engage with their campers in the off season. We have resorts that aren’t open in the winter that. We’ll send out trivia questions in right around Thanksgiving or right around Christmas.

And if you enter that the next time you book, you get free firewood delivered to your site. But it’s just a way to get those campers for their season to think about ’em early on book earlier in the season, come more often, think about us before you think about them sort of thing. And and then I wonder how many people actually turn in and get the free firewood?

I have no idea. But that’s what, [00:25:00] that’s mostly what we see in that, 

Brian Searl: The gift cards, right? 

Joe Duemig: Sorry? 

Brian Searl: Like the number of people who redeem gift cards. 

Joe Duemig: Correct. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. 

Brian Searl: So tell me, is it fair to say that at my community is less of a, and I know it is a marketing tool to some aspect, is it less of a pre-visit?

1. Marketing a community on site. So what do you think is important for someone who’s open during these different seasons to be able to communicate with their guests that might be different in the summer? 

Joe Duemig: Yeah and it really depends on the park. Every park is different in the way they operate, but like our long term state parks, they will be more like communicating, okay, here are the clubs we have, here’s what’s going on in this club and this club.

Here are the contacts. Here’s our tournaments that we have set up for pickleball. Whereas transients, it’s all just about the resort and the local area. So there’s just a and even in that there’s a wide array. If you’re on the ocean, you’re gonna be putting in all of the information about the tide schedule and the beach ordinances and stuff like that.

It, and [00:26:00] it very much while. Varies wildly between those. But to your point about the marketing engine, we get asked all the time, why do I need a website still? And that’s the first thing I say. I say your website is your marketing engine. It’s to get people on your property. We have no plans to ever replace any of that because that’s not what you’d use an app for.

App is an engagement engine. It’s the way to, while they’re on the property, get the communication to and from your camper that you need at all times and not have to rely on handouts to get outdated. 

Brian Searl: Okay. I wanna go to Troy in a second, but just Whitney, do you want to, do you have any thoughts on that from the KOA app perspective or?

Whitney Scott: Yeah, we see a lot of growth in the app in the u. We see more and more bookings coming through the app every year. But to Joe’s point, k.com is. The heart of everything. You just cannot get as much information as, the app can and the user experience, is much more enriched.

Sometimes on a desktop, it’s bigger. [00:27:00] You can, you don’t wanna forget the website. We’re not at that point anywhere. I don’t even think in like big tech brands, they’re just, leaving their websites behind. Apps are, but your app is equally important to develop you. I don’t, I think we’re at a point in the bi in our business where you need to have an app, because people are so mobile ready that you need to be able to not only have your website be able to handle mobile traffic, but you also probably want to have an app.

Whether that’s to service guests that are on your park, like upcoming events and things like that. Order pizza. Or to service a brand like ours 

Brian Searl: does. Yeah. And ultimately it’s no different than winter camping, right? You wanna start with the summer camping, which is your website, and then you want to expand your audiences to be the people who are looking at apps and the people who are looking at mobile and the people who are right. So 

Whitney Scott: that’s a great correlation. 

Brian Searl: Yes. Okay. Troy, do we have you third time’s a charm? 

Troy Haney: [00:28:00] We hope so. Hopefully this is a little better. 

Brian Searl: It seems to be a little better. You’re breaking up a tiny bit, but we’re gonna try. So Troy, tell us about Lacey’s. Campground. 

Troy Haney: Alright Kacie’s Campground we had a tragedy in our family.

We lost our daughter to a car accident and she loved the outdoors, loved going to lakes, rivers, things like that. And we had purchased an RV. We had camped, we were having campers ourselves, the campers, ourselves. Back purchased a new camper, decided to utilize that. A little bit of the backstory is the where, when we pulled out of our driveway.

We could see the spot each day. So obviously I thought it would be a good wife out, away from the home and the rv. Give us a break from the scene, if you will. Obviously we decided, we thought we’d like to do some we summer living, things like that, started looking for site and everything seems pretty full as most campgrounds are today with the explosion in the campground industry that there needed to be a [00:29:00] place for people to park and started looking around and of course small community of about 6,500 people.

And there used to be an Air Force base here in the county that years ago, boring Air Force Base, which was a big loss to the area. And a lot of businesses had closed, taking 20,000 people out of an area that left 6,500 behind would due to a community part of the city of Caribouz. The desire was to, we have this beautiful river.

The university, the history of that river was more, utilitarian or industrial in 19 hundreds. Rivers were really the rail system ran by the river, things like that for lumber, different reasons. But so a lot of the stuff that, that happened down there, of course, has gone to the wayside today and left a lot of debris in the river.

So Caribou’s got this desire to rebuild the river, the water f and they [00:30:00] working at that diligently. And we thought, man, what an opportunity to potentially invest down on the waterfront, help get the project started for the city help show what could be done down there.

And also, build something that’s a little more Casey in memory of her. So that was the backstory of how we got there. We found three acre parcel. So it’s not a huge campground by any means. Certainly very small. And it’s a niche campground with about nine sites, so it’s not big by any means.

But we found a piece of property that housed a car scrap yard if you will. So they large with scrap metal and you can imagine decades of cars being taken. And then when they closed, they left a lot of the tires and undesirable parts behind and come to debris and trees and things like, like that.

So this is land that’s been sitting there. Everybody not done anything with it. So we, it was really a [00:31:00] complete overhaul, revitalization of the air. And the tires and the engine blocks and things like that, that were left behind along the river. Cleaning that up full rebuild of a nice campground with oversized lots that are five-thousand-plus for campers to really enjoy themselves along the river.

Brian Searl: Guys, I know Troy’s breaking up just a tiny bit, but I’m getting the gist of his story. Are you guys hearing that okay. On your end? Okay. Troy, I’m curious, as you have come into this RV Park space and learn more about campgrounds and how they operate and some of the amenities that people look for when they’re traveling along the road, how do you, and maybe it’s no different, but how do you balance that between wanting to preserve the memory of your, does it change the way you operate the park knowing that Casey might have wanted it a certain way?

Troy Haney: I don’t know that it changed it. It may have influenced us to find things that she would’ve liked. That we know she would’ve liked and what, different [00:32:00] walkways along, there’s a brook that comes in along the property and they basically have an old culvert, if you will, concrete culvert that comes through the rail, a bit of a waterfall.

And again, that was buried back in some trees. Thought that would be a spot she would think was really cool. Paths put some seating there for people to go and enjoy the waterfall, the sound of waterfalls and to relax that. There’s some of those amenities. We’ve got been lots of wildlife in and around the area and and ATV access to the, to boats.

A lot of the things that she would’ve liked that were already there, we just had to open ’em up and extension.

Do you have plans to continue, I don’t wanna say improving, but changing, adapting or do you have things that you’re still on your list of things that you feel could change or adapt that would be more closer to what she would see as her vision of the park? [00:33:00] 

Yeah, we’ll continue to try to improve and add some burn, things like that.

More playground areas. As far as the campsite, we probably as far as we can go at this point again, due to space, require, space, situations, what we have for the river. And but we wanted to make each site feel in that was the goal. So we outfitted a, again, being a small campground, you can, we outfitted each campsite with storage sheds.

So each person, then they pull in and park. They’ve got a bike in. And or whatever they might, whatever they may have with them. We’ve Wi-Fi with a hotspot in each site so there’s no drop from one end of the campground to the other. A lot of those sort of things to just, give people a great experience and we’re lending ourselves that are looking for a place to live for the summer.

So it’s not really an overnight camping, it’s more, it’s more of a small community that we’ve [00:34:00] developed that people will come in RV for 

months at a time.

Brian Searl: It’s a, not a great story, but I think you know what I mean. And I’m glad that you showed up and told us a story and I’m sorry you’re cutting out a little bit, but really appreciate being here. And I think we wanna, let’s try to Whitney, I know we have a lot to talk about. Do you have anything else that’s come up in that besides winter camping, because we’re headed into spring now.

Do you have anything that’s come up in the North American you can’t tell us that the monthly report since we’ve last talked, that you feel is worth highlighting. 

Whitney Scott: Yeah, I think one of the things too we’re tracking right now is booking windows. Just trying to, while we’ve seen campers book travel, we also wanna see are they booking earlier?

Are they booking later? And so one of the things is, just part of it is to give campground owners an idea of what they should be accept expecting as they see travel coming in is that majority of our RVers are actually lengthening their booking windows right now. And I think what we see that go towards is they wanna get their [00:35:00] spot at their campground for those key camping holidays.

And that’s what we’re really seeing right now. The Memorial Day is the 4th of July, is the Labor Days, interestingly enough. We tracked this last year in the Omnibus. We were tracking a lot of pushing of reservations and canceling trips to later in the season. And we noted that due to weather last year, as we come into this year, we’ve actually seen that trend correlate into a very small trend of campers right now that are actually shortening their booking windows.

The biggest portion of this, it’s about 16% of the camping market say, I’m actually gonna shorten my booking window this year, and there’s three reasons for it. One is or two, two top reasons for it. One being work events. Three, sorry work events. I am, I’m looking at different types of travel and then also weather related.

And so why is this important? Why is [00:36:00] this something that we’re watching? We’ve seen something shift in one year that’s now impacted up whole a decision set, and it’s important for camper unknown. Owners, especially if you are, you service a lot of tenting groups or a lot of younger campers because this is the highest subset of them.

And so if they’re shortening their booking windows, you might be looking at the report and seeing all this travel booking and not feeling it in your own reservations. It could be because you service a lot of this market who’s I don’t want to make a booking until I know that it’s going to really happen.

I’m not gonna book for my June and July in my tent because of the heat wave that went through last year, or that I’m really unsure about, work, my work schedule. And so I’m gonna hold it for a while so it, it could, it’s something we’re watching ’cause it could, grow as we continue to see weather evolving as we [00:37:00] continue to see work in office, not in office, evolve.

So it, it’s just something that I think we should be aware of, and especially if we cater more to Tenters or younger campers, you might actually be feeling some of this impact this year. 

Brian Searl: I wanna booking Windows fascinates me because we’ve had the same kind of conversations with our clients, but before we maybe lose Joe again.

Joe, do we have you?

Maybe not. This is really interesting. I wonder if I could time this to be delayed perfectly with Joe. I don’t think it’s gonna work. All right, so let’s talk about booking windows for a second. So I’ve had these conversations with both some clients and then people who call me for the first time and realize or think they need marketing, and they’ve never done that before, but they’re talking about this changing shift and so I think a lot of it is what you’re talking about.

Do you think that some of the behavior is related to people are [00:38:00] booking longer, stays at Yes. Their favorite parks for the reasons that you talked about. But is there a mindset of I wanna stay one or two places instead of five or six this year?

Whitney Scott: We are definitely, we’ve definitely tracked over the last few years this idea of mixed travel. We talked about it a lot on like memorial days, is that people are booking different types of travel inside of a trip. It’s actually continuing to grow. So I think, while I don’t have specific data off the top of my head, I do think that as people are going on road trips or as they’re camping, they may not necessarily always be staying at one place.

They may stay with family and then spend a couple of nights camping. We are seeing a lot of that in the data, and so I think there’s opportunity in that for campgrounds. Is that. Even with people that have booked travel already, maybe they’ve booked a couple hotel nights. There’s pro, [00:39:00] there could be opportunity to grab them for a couple nights on the back net end because they went, they’re going to a wedding, but why not at a couple of days and go hiking and go camping.

So I think there’s something there as well. But I don’t have specific data to what you’re talking to right off the top of my head. 

Brian Searl: I was hoping you did because I don’t either. But the kind of the sense that we’re getting, like the gut feeling without any data whatsoever right, is that people are traveling less, longer distances across the United States perhaps this year than they have in the past.

Still going camping, but. And so we’ve done a lot of tightening on our Google Ads campaigns and things like that to say, if you’re in New York, maybe previously I would’ve wanted to reach people who were looking for Chautauqua Lake KOA, for example, right? Because if you type that into Google search, you’re not looking for anything else except Chautauqua Lake, New York, especially if you can figure out how to spell that.

But so we wanna reach everybody, right? And potentially get all those people who are coming to the area. But I think we’ve seen enough data on our side that I can’t really [00:40:00] Equate into a report, but that makes me say I wanna just target maybe New York and Pennsylvania and Ohio and Indiana and tighten that up a little bit because they’re more likely to convert.

Whitney Scott: We will be releasing distance traveled in the North American Camper Report. So I will have something. 

Brian Searl: Come on. 

Whitney Scott: Teaser alert. There is some of that in there. So maybe it’s, I can’t share that right now, but I will share it as soon as it’s able to be released. I would say to that though, and I feel like I’m a broken record here, is that, depending on your what, who your campground services there is a strong, there’s a flip that happened in the last few months where more people are intending to road trip than camp.

But a lot of people camp while they’re road tripping. So if you’re in a road trip market, you just wanna be careful that, you’re not trying to really focus on your local business only, you still wanna service that cash cow. It just might [00:41:00] also be about being a little bit more flexible and looking at different opportunities.

In the last few years, because camping has been booming, we’ve really only had to market to campers. People literally looking for camping. But now it might be something where we have to understand travel behaviors or greater travel behaviors to really get that consumer into the park. So it’s understanding, are you road tripping and can I grab you into my campground on that road trip?

Because it, that’s a completely different online journey and potentially search. 

Brian Searl: Yeah, and I completely agree with you. And you think of all the low-hanging fruit opportunities in winter. Camping certainly is one of them, which you just talked about as one of them. But also the people who just love the outdoors.

Maybe I’m going fishing, maybe I’m going hiking, maybe I’m, wherever I like going out on the lake or water skiing. All those people love being outside. So it stands to reason [00:42:00] they would be less of an uphill climb to convert into people who would regularly go to campgrounds if they knew of your brand.

Joe Duemig: Okay. Brian, if it makes you feel any better, anecdotally, we’re we’re driving about 2200 miles to go to a campground this summer 

Brian Searl: Joe, not everybody runs a billion dollar app company. Oh yeah. But I was gonna ask you and Candace to simultaneously do you see just trend wise when you’re talking to, and it could be booking windows or anything else, but just trend wise, what do you guys see from talking to all your parks?

Candice McNamara: You wanna go? So you wanna No, you go ahead, Candace. Okay. So one of the things that we, one of the things that we’re seeing is like everything, when he’s saying a hundred percent, like we’re seeing the exact same thing, but it’s very specific to weather. So that’s something that damage policies, all these weather needs and stuff like that are really what’s been transitioning.

I would say another factor that we recently adapted, we already had it in software for years, but it’s been used heavily, almost 50% more than it was used last year is the flexibility [00:43:00] calendars. So in the previous years it was like they knew when they were coming, they knew the exact dates, they weren’t as flexible.

But we do see that we have these availability flexibility calendars and we have heat maps on them and we can see people consistently going almost weeks or months ahead of time and then coming right back to the same dates and then choosing a totally different date than they originally placed in.

So if that’s something that you’re looking for that’s been, I would say that is spot on some of the trends that we’ve seen. 

Brian Searl: But what about unique Candace only stay list, exclusive trends, 

Candice McNamara: Indies, I know what do you wanna know? No, I’m just kidding. 

Brian Searl: I don’t know what, I don’t wanna know.

That’s the, or however that, I dunno. 

Candice McNamara: Yeah, I would say, I mean there’s quite a few different things that we’re seeing that are really unique and custom to our software in particular that we’ve been tracking for years and that we’ve just really seen, set off.

That we didn’t anticipate things that we almost were gonna sunset that have really come back into the realm. And I think it’s very very similar to what Whitney’s saying, which is like this kind of [00:44:00] experiential park experience during this season and even from last season. So that, that’s as detailed as I can get for right this second.

But if there’s something specific you want and I feel like I can divulge, I’ll 

Brian Searl: literally, like everybody on this show is but I can’t really tell you. Yes. Joe, are you gonna say the same thing? 

Joe Duemig: No. I’m, maybe, no don’t we don’t know too much about the encamper in terms of their needs.

A lot of times we’re not in involved in the bookings and things like that. I. They’ll do bookings, but it sends ’em off to Staylist or whichever other booking software that they use to make the reservation. So we don’t have a lot of insight to that. Our campgrounds don’t really talk to us that much about that.

But what I see is the campgrounds they want experiences and automation. Those are the two things that, that they’re looking for now. Five years ago I was looking for automation. Campgrounds owners were not, and now campground owners are wanting that. And so they’re wanting, when I, they’re wanting a resort experience at their [00:45:00] RV resort they want to, they want that word to actually mean something which it hasn’t before.

You go to a resort that is a physical building and you never have to carry a credit card, and you walk around from place to place. You have all your information. You have your key card in your pocket. All of that’s done. And campgrounds are wanting, or resorts our outdoor hospitality resorts are wanting to have that as well now.

So that’s the things that we’ve been working on. And they also are much more inclined to worry about not putting things in one in two places like that. Before, I think that was less of an issue. Heck, they were managing their reservations on a piece of paper and writing it down all the time.

So putting it in two systems online was easy. But now they’re not wanting that they wanna spend out the time with their camper or or not, they’re wanting to spend their time not dealing with a lot of the stuff. Those are the things that we see.

And then I. A lot more of the experiences. Booking local experiences or finding local experiences through the app, that’s what their customers are asking them for. So that’s what they’re asking us for. As well as [00:46:00] concierge-type things, which kind of goes back to the resort experience, but how can I use my app as a digital concierge?

And so we kind of work with them on that and give them some ideas. And it really all depends on what their process currently looks like and what they want that process to actually look like on how we would, advise them to do that. 

Brian Searl: So I have two questions and I promise Candice is not gonna pay me any money for doing this, but just Candice from a PMS perspective, and I know you can only speak to Staylist, that’s why I’m saying this.

Sure. And then I Whitney something similar, but from a PMS perspective with resorts, what kind of features, and again, I know you can only speak to stateless, so this really isn’t you selling, but it has to be in some ways. What kind of those features do you think that stay list has that is important to people who are redefining this, what they define a resort as if that’s not a tongue twister.

And then what? I’m gonna go Whitney after that. With This, Koa was a leader in this space, right? Koa holiday resort journey. Do you see the definition of resort from a [00:47:00] KOA perspective changing or needing to change in the future? So I’ll give you some time to think about that with you before.

Candice McNamara: Okay. 

Brian Searl: Go ahead. 

Candice McNamara: So ask me my question again. You went detailed into it. 

Brian Searl: You expect me to remember this stuff? I’m old 

Candice McNamara: outta here. You’re asking. Okay, so here reward, style benefit, that’s true. But yes. Here’s really like the 10000th foot view. Is this exactly what Joe just said about all-in-one platforming?

That is, I would say almost exclusively what people are asking for. They’re also asking for these integrations to, at my community, to campground views. Two wild energies. So I would say that this all-in-one platform is definitely something people are looking for that concierge effect. And I really see people building memory experiences and exactly what he was saying earlier and even with Troy where he was talking about putting those personal touches there’re enhancing them to almost like a Disneyland effect.

So a couple of things that we’re seeing specifically at Stay List is an adaptation to a point-of-sale system that allows people to order [00:48:00] online like a Door Dash and then opening that to their general community so that way it builds buzz around them. Or RFID bands, which are just essentially that Disney effect where they’re just scanning and going, so cashless like parks.

These are some of the experiences and that kind of all bleeds into the same kind of mantra of what my community is doing, where they’re getting that experience where they’re seamlessly walking through and they’re really just experiencing the park and making a memory with their families, but also on a much more higher end than, was previously seen. So I would say that those are some of the pieces and parts of what most campground owners will come and say, I need help with understanding and making sure that my accounting is accurate. I want to make my part cashless and as seamless and as easy as possible for people to walk through and buy as much as they want.

And I want them to remember the experience that they had with us, like Disneyland. And I think KOA has already adapted that, so I’m gonna segue that back to her. But I would say that those are some of the glitz and glams and changes of parks that we’ve seen. And this isn’t just [00:49:00] Northeast or Midwest.

This is across the board. 

Brian Searl: So Alright. Take it away. Whitney. 

Whitney Scott: Candice definitely talked about a lot of the things that we see from like a technology piece of a resort experience. I think I would even start with us that. It all goes back to this definition of outdoor hospitality and what does that mean?

And I think that we’re, as an industry, we know, but the consumer has potentially a different definition of it. And we’re re, we went into that and our report last year and we’ll dive deeper into that this year. So from an experiential set, it’s it’s definitely how this technology and the experience, the physical experience tied together end to end, from booking to, repeat business is how is that [00:50:00] experience constant.

And then when you bring in kind of those resort elements, because we do have, we actually have a resort brand in KOA. There’s definitely pieces that we want to look at and elevate and. Showcase a park. But from a just outdoor hospice fatality perspective, there’s just things that we think that every camp, every one of our campground has that kind of helps that expectation really come to fruition.

That being like being able to have text messaging to guests if a park does want that cashless charge to site or FID bands, those are things that, you know, as the campground industry kind of looks at the hotel industry, those are resort-like features and functions that potentially more campgrounds will start having at their parks.

From a design perspective, I think there’s even things that we’ve been doing that really kinda [00:51:00] upgrade into a resort-like feel. We released the signature site last year. We actually have those live and bookable at, our Myrtle Beach. KOA Resort, and these are sites that take up, two to three normal RV sites that just have a lot of kind of upgraded resort-like features at the site themselves.

Whether it’s a camping kitchen or pawpens specifically for that RV site. Gazebos, these are, this is an idea that this kind of like an exclusive site that could maybe be like a, the meeting spot for a family reunion so that if you’re camping with a group, there’s an a built-in site that you can go to and be together as a group or family.

So these are it’s technology, it’s design. I think there are resort-like features that. The campground industry is always developing from a resort, [00:52:00] KOA resort brand perspective. I think there’s things that, that, we actually have a committee that recently met a couple of weeks ago about how their brand might develop in the future because we, it’s crazy to think about, but it was developed 10 years ago and there’s always a point where you’re like, do we innovate?

Do we change? What does it mean for us? So I think there’s potential there as well. 

Brian Searl: Yeah, I think that’s what interests me more. Is that, yes, from the KOA perspective, generally speaking from the resort brand perspective is as you talk about these new technology pieces that come in from RFID bracelets and tying everything together and smart energy meters with wild energy and whatever else, right?

Is there a changing definition of what it means to be a resort? ’cause I think there are probably some KOA holidays that are really close to the edge. Of being a KOA resort as it’s currently defined today. And I’m not gonna sit there and say do you think that, I’m not gonna put you in that [00:53:00] corner Whitney, but just generally speaking, from a resort standpoint, I wonder if there are certain things that could make a resort without the traditional definition of it.

Whitney Scott: Yeah I think it for sure. I think as consumers mind chain minds change and adapt and all of our campgrounds grow in amenities and services that it would, it’s prudent on every one of our brands to re-look at it at a point in time. Because, brands, even as they come out with, this is who we are, if you don’t take a look at what your kind of core products and services are you’re gonna outdate yourself because consumers are going to change past you.

So I think it’s just that evolution that. We’re coming to a point where it’s okay, let’s get together, let’s look at this. And I, I do it’s funny that you say that about holidays because some of our holidays for sure have wonderful resort like amenities. And really our brands are meant to make sure [00:54:00] our consumers understand what they can expect.

They might be wowed over and above for sure, but they at least know that, hey, a journey has this, they’re more, they have a lot of pull throughs. They have in their store more RV specific accessories. And then maybe at a resort it’s I can expect, that there’s gonna be food at the location that I’ll never have to really step off to get anything else.

So it’s more of an expectation than a full like you, we would never have necessarily like a journey holiday and Resort right there together because it’s, yeah. It’s more about the expectation. 

Brian Searl: Here’s an interesting data point. We released our report on reviews in January, but I’d be interested to see a study on whether holidays get more, five holidays that are closer to resorts, get more five-star reviews because they are wowed more because the expectation was lower in some ways than coming into a resort.

That would be an interesting data point [00:55:00] to have someday, but 

Whitney Scott: But they’re not good, better, best, no,

Brian Searl: I know, but what I’m saying is that if you’re marketing yourself as a holiday, but providing more of a resort level experience, then there’s more of a potential for a guest to be wowed versus coming in and expecting a resort.

You have to deliver a little bit more to wow them into a five-star. I think generally speaking, not from a KOA perspective, but just generally overall, is that fair or no? You can say no. You can tell me I’m an idiot. 

Whitney Scott: I, it was surprising to That is so in and I, because I can only see our customer data.

About our customers is that a lot of our journeys actually have really high scores. As well as a lot, it’s really, I think there’s a really, it’s really about your, I, gosh, I’m back on my marketing box. I really think it’s about how that campground is setting expectations and then delivering over and above no matter, regardless, and that’s what we really trade, is that no matter what you are, your [00:56:00] service and amenities, if you can provide that, that wow factor and that you’re present, you’re there.

Your yellow shirts service is on par, like that, that wow factor is gonna be there. 

Brian Searl: A hundred percent. That’s exactly what I was trying to say. Just the holiday in the resort is a small part of that, or a big part of that marketing piece of overall setting those expectations. So I know we’re a little bit over today.

Anybody have any final thoughts before we go? 

Candice McNamara: I have one. Oh, just because I thought about it later and I’m sorry ’cause I answered wrong earlier. We were talking about winterizing and a hundred percent what Whitney said is build a landing page, send that traffic there. Don’t mess with your cash cow.

But one thing that is I will release exclusive to you Brian. One thing that has been crazy this last winter is we have storage models. And so a lot of our parks that had never even done anything related to winter events have been opening up their parks to bring in storage and allowing those spots to be filled throughout that season for when they open.

And it’s, similar to like when I was at [00:57:00] Amazon, they had the storage pool for tractor trailers. And so that’s just something to speaking to a campground owner is not something that’s out of the scope so long as they are winterized. You’re not getting that antifreeze all over the place.

But those are things that a lot of our clients have adapted over, even just the last couple months. So I just wanted to end the note in there if you’re trying to make a little bit of extra money and not have to do any work or have people overhead on there that’s something that has definitely popped up.

Brian Searl: Awesome. Thank you so much. I really appreciate everybody being here for another episode of MC Fireside Chats. Joe, I’m really sorry we couldn’t get to, you couldn’t make the audio work, but just send an email to Sharah. Sharah is actually watching this right now. Let’s get Joe back on and try to, ’cause he is got a lot of valuable stuff we wanna pick his brain about.

He’s been in the industry a very long time, so we’ll try to get you back on Joe Troy. Really appreciate you being here. You gotta, again I wanna default by saying great story, but you know exactly what I mean. I just perhaps can’t find the right words for it. 

Troy Haney: Yeah, but I would add real quick to that, to maybe look at that a little different is yes, we had a trap.

We are taking the first steps to help the [00:58:00] town rebirth, have fun memories going forward. Families will have fun there. And so we wanna look at the. Positive side of that. Yes, we had a tragedy and we’re gonna make the moment and turn it into something beneficial for and for people that are out camping.

Brian Searl: It’s a truly inspiring perspective. I don’t know if I would be that good if it happened to me, but it’s great to hear that you are. So Joe, thanks for joining us as well another week and then Whitney, of course, for sharing all your valuable insights and data. And we will see you guys next week on another episode of MC Fireside Chats. Take care guys. See ya. 

Joe Duemig: Thanks. Bye-Bye bye. 

Whitney Scott: Yep. 

Thanks for joining us for this episode of MC Fireside Chats with your host Brian Searl. Have a suggestion for a show idea. Want your campground to accompany in a future episode? Email us at hello at moderncampground.com. Get your daily dose of news from Moderncampground.com, and be sure to join us next week for more insights into the fascinating world of outdoor [00:59:00] hospitality.