MC Fireside Chats – May 13th, 2026

 [00:00:45] Brian Searl: With Insider Perks and Modern Campground, excited to be here with you. Back from the Florida Keys, my dog is laying next to me. She missed me for 12 days or however long I was gone, so we have more separation anxiety than normal. But excited to be back here for another episode of Fireside Chats.

 We got Zach, recurring guest, Jeremy, recurring guest, Travis as a special guest, and Joy as our special guest today. I want to go around the room and just introduce everybody. Zach, you want to start?

[00:01:10] Zach Stoltenberg: Sure. My name is Zach Stoltenberg. I’m the Associate Principal for Architecture with LJA Engineering. We help people design, build, permit, and entitle outdoor hospitality. So glamping, camping, luxury RV parks, boutique hotels, and experiential stays.

[00:01:28] Brian Searl: Awesome. Welcome back, Zach. Appreciate you being here. Jeremy?

[00:01:32] Jeremy Johnson: Hey guys, my name is Jeremy. I’m one of the owners of Kona Hills Campground in Marquette, Michigan. Actually on site today, getting ready to open next weekend. We finally got bright sunny weather above 50 degrees in Northern Michigan, so I’m feeling good.

[00:01:47] Brian Searl: It’s warm here too. Yeah, we got lucked out. Although it’s supposed to be cold this weekend, so we’ll see for the holiday up here anyway. Joy?

[00:01:55] Joy de Vos: Hi, my name is Joy de Vos and I’m from British Columbia. We opened up our campground this year and we’re looking at trying to give people the experience on a dairy farm.

[00:02:07] Brian Searl: Welcome, Joy. Is it going to be cold over there in BC like us? Is it going to be like nine here for the holiday weekend?

[00:02:13] Joy de Vos: I think it’s around 10 and it’s cloudy. Yeah, this is not my background. I would have liked to have had my farm background, but I’ll just go with your pre-made avatar here.

[00:02:27] Brian Searl: Travis, last but not least, sir.

[00:02:29] Travis Chambers: Hey, Travis Chambers here. Company is Outpost X and we build immersive adventure hotels or micro resorts, not sure what to call them. But we’re here today in Rincon, Puerto Rico. We’re building an avatar-inspired project in our jungle here.

[00:02:47] Brian Searl: Awesome. Excited to learn more about that, Travis. Thanks for being here. I appreciate it. So normally how we start the show, everybody knows, or Jeremy and Zach know, we just toss it to you guys. Is there anything that you guys have felt has come across your desk in the last few weeks since we’ve been together on this specific show that you think is worthy of talking about?

[00:03:06] Jeremy Johnson: Man, I don’t know if it’s just my feed showing it to me, but I feel like everybody seems to be harping on dynamic pricing lately. That seems to be such a big thing that 2026 is all about. I don’t know if anybody here has utilized it in their projects yet.

[00:03:23] Brian Searl: So here’s a question. Are we talking about real dynamic pricing or are we talking about what the campground industry has, which is basically yield management?

[00:03:30] Jeremy Johnson: I think that’s also the consensus from everybody that I’m talking to or everybody that I’m seeing in my feed. Everybody’s saying turning on PriceLabs or turning on dynamic pricing in Newbook isn’t quite cutting it anymore. There’s a manual process behind all of it that most people aren’t fully exploring, it seems.

[00:03:50] Brian Searl: Where do you think, Jeremy, as an owner of a campground obviously, what do you think is missing? What do you think is the biggest gap between where we need to go? Because there are steps, right? We’re not going to get to Disney tomorrow or Delta Airlines tomorrow. But where’s the step the industry needs to take to get us from where we are now to where we should be?

[00:04:08] Jeremy Johnson: On the campground side, it’s hard for me to say because we use Parc as our PMS and they just introduced flexible pricing across dates, but they don’t have any dynamic pricing or dynamic pricing integrations. I’m also very rustic, as you know, Brian. So I don’t have a lot of amenities. A base price works really easy for me.

 I don’t need to go up or down a whole lot compared to somebody with maybe higher demand or more amenities or different site types. So it’s hard for me to say, but I think the one thing that I’ve noticed on my end, whether it’s with Airbnb or even thinking about the campground, is there’s not a lot of consideration for my individual properties. You can set a base floor, but you can’t set a dynamic floor.

 I would like to be able to set a dynamic floor based on the season, where most software just lets you set one single floor. So I think taking into account more of the uniqueness of your property and not just a single equation would be really helpful with a lot of these softwares.

[00:05:17] Brian Searl: Zach, anybody else have anything to add? Travis, Joy?

[00:05:21] Zach Stoltenberg: I think some of that is still coming out of the influence of traditional hospitality. All those systems and mechanisms, the booking software, they’re built for that traditional model. Everything about outdoor hospitality is so unique and different. Looking at Travis’s property, even with different seasons, I think his demand is always there because it’s such a unique property.

 I think traditional hotels, their demand drivers are typically events. Maybe there’s a concert, maybe there’s a convention, a gathering, a meetup, something like that, and they’ll of course raise prices because they know there’s more demand on those particular event weekends. But I think there’s not a good way to measure those demand drivers when it comes from that experiential perspective.

 The other thing I think to answer your first question, Brian, that I noticed, we’re coming off of back-to-back conventions with the Texas Association of Campground Owners, the TACO event, and then the Florida and Alabama convention. The thing that we heard kind of harped on repeatedly at both of those events was that campground owners need to be paying attention to non-RV.

 With the RV market kind of stabilizing, softening a little bit, there’s a big push right now into cabins, park models, glamping tents, other accommodation options for all those people who want to come and have that camping experience but don’t necessarily own an RV.

[00:06:51] Brian Searl: How do we, and maybe we don’t want to take this over the whole show and go down this direction, but it’s just interesting to me. Is it possible to build a dynamic pricing model for experiences or experiential? To measure what the guest is not only experiencing in the accommodation, but what they’re feeling, how their stay goes, what the landscaping is, everything that you do, Zach, to design the resorts, everything that Travis does with the accommodations, everything Jeremy does from operations that feed into that experience. Or is that unnecessary?

[00:07:20] Zach Stoltenberg: I think that’s the rub here, right? That’s the challenge is how do you, what’s the data measurement, the metric that you would use to drive that dynamic pricing when it’s experience-based?

[00:07:37] Brian Searl: Anybody have any ideas? Travis, you have an idea? You build…

[00:07:43] Travis Chambers: Yeah, I’m not a dynamic pricing expert.

[00:07:45] Brian Searl: No, but you’re an accommodation expert. You’re an experience guy, right?

[00:07:48] Travis Chambers: Yeah. I actually just texted my business partner to ask him if we do it. I don’t know if we have a software running, I’ll ask him. I know we were doing it manually, but most of our demand is driven by marketing and influencers and stuff. So I don’t know if dynamic helps us a little bit less. I know Ben Wolff does a ton of it. He talks about it all the time. So I’m waiting on an answer from my partner on that.

[00:08:14] Brian Searl: In the meantime, while you wait on the answer from your partner, tell us what you’re building, Travis.

[00:08:19] Travis Chambers: Yeah, so we’re building these, basically they’re movie set hotels. So they’re highly experiential. We’re trying to pull that lever as much as possible, and experiential hospitality is kind of a growing niche right now. So when you enter the project, you’re entering a movie scene.

 There’s a whole story, there’s a podcast that you listen to on the way there with dialogue and characters and plot lines and backstories. You get to the project, you enter this super themed unit. We try to remove all of your connections to the modern world, to your life, and you’re just in this 48-hour kind of experience.

 It’s almost like the movie version if you were going to go train with samurai or go in the Amazon rainforest with a tribe or go on a safari. We’re trying to create that level of immersive experience. So we have art cars that you can drive around. There’s an audio tour with historical signs throughout the property of things that are not real, they’re just our fictional world.

 It’s a choose your own adventure place. There’s a cantina with mocktails that you can make. There’s an earth lodge that’s a Moroccan interior with mint tea and all these random delicacies and snacks that we made up that are part of our culture. But it’s cool. We’re mixing a lot of things together.

 It’s like a landscape hotel, it’s like an Airbnb, it’s like a resort, but not. So it’s actually difficult to explain exactly what it is, but it’s like a movie set kind of experience. And now here in Puerto Rico, we’re doing this avatar-inspired experience.

 And so you arrive at this jungle trading post, right, that’s hidden into this jungle here. This old kind of colonial thing that’s happening here. And then you descend down into the jungle to ancient times. And we’re going to have a lighting design, projection mapping where the whole jungle comes alive, and you have this art walk experience.

 And then there’s waterfalls down at the bottom with lagoons. So we’re just trying to create this magic, kind of surreal cinematic experience for people.

[00:10:41] Brian Searl: Is it fair to say that then you’re basically putting someone in a personalized movie of their own making?

[00:10:49] Travis Chambers: Yeah. It’s hard to explain. I’m still working on the pitch.

[00:10:54] Brian Searl: I like that. I like a challenge like that, right? Because you’re creating your own thing that hasn’t been done before in the ways that you’ve been doing it. And I think that innovation is probably sorely needed in the outdoor hospitality industry.

[00:11:08] Travis Chambers: Yeah, so far it seems to be working. We opened Outpost X Utah two years ago. We’ve had 87% occupancy, $441 ADR. And so we’ll see how it goes here in Puerto Rico.

[00:11:20] Brian Searl: How do you do marketing to the consumer who is unfamiliar with a product like yours? Like obviously you can say all the things you just told us, right? But how do you convince the guest who’s never experienced something like yours that it’s worth the $441 ADR or whatever it is to come and do all that?

[00:11:38] Travis Chambers: Yeah, so our project in Utah is three hours from Vegas and an hour and 45 minutes west of Zion. So it’s absolutely in the middle of nowhere. And we wanted to do this experiment. Can we get someone to go in the middle of nowhere? Can we pull that off?

 The thing that’s worked has been medium-sized travel influencers. And these are people who just find experiences and explain them to their audience. It’s done really well. I’d say we’ve spent maybe $30,000 total in two years on influencers to do about 250 million views on social media. And to our knowledge, we’re the most viewed hospitality product in Utah.

[00:12:22] Brian Searl: Something to hang your hat on for sure. Especially with all the national parks there and all the amazing geography. Zach, you have any questions for Travis?

[00:12:32] Zach Stoltenberg: One, I love that you’re in Rincon. I actually spent Christmas a year ago in Rincon at Crash Boat Beach and I love that area of Puerto Rico. It’s absolutely incredible and the people there are absolutely wonderful. That’s pretty exciting. I’m anxious to see you focusing on that.

 Talk a little bit about just some of the challenges of those remote sites. Solving some of the problems of utilities, of infrastructure, of getting trades to come out to be able to actually do work on the property. Is it bringing a crew in or is it sourcing it locally? Because I think you’re doing something that is amazing and wonderful, but everybody would be doing it if it was easy.

 And I know that it’s not easy. I know that you’ve taken honestly probably one of the more difficult paths in order to get there. So maybe just tell us a little bit about what that journey’s been like and your approach to it and some of the things that have worked for you.

[00:13:27] Travis Chambers: Yeah, thanks Zach. Yeah, we’ve tried just about everything. Hiring a builder, we’ve tried getting local people. So where we’ve landed is we now have a mobile construction crew, people who are willing to travel and live on site. Generally that’s been the best for us.

 That requires a lot of hands-on management and a lot of planning. It’s not maybe the easiest way to do it, but it’s definitely the most cost-efficient way to do it. And so we’ve got 25 people living here on the job site right now. And I’ll actually show you, we’ve just rolled out all this prefab housing, basically just air-conditioned units.

 And then we’ve got these showers and bathrooms. And the advantage of that is a lot of this infrastructure for the crew, we end up reusing for staff to live on site and for our laundry room and back of house, things like that. That seems to be going well.

 And in Puerto Rico is an additional challenge. There’s not a lot of builders, there’s not a lot of laborers in general in Puerto Rico. They’re really hard to get. So just bringing people from the mainland has been huge. We already did the test experiment with a lot of locals and things and they were pretty good, but it was just a little bit more difficult, not moving quite as quick.

[00:14:55] Brian Searl: Anybody else have any questions for Travis?

[00:15:01] Joy de Vos: I’m curious, how did you come up with this idea of doing what you’re doing? Because it sounds really exciting.

[00:15:07] Travis Chambers: I had a film production company. We were making hundreds of commercials a year for Facebook, Instagram, YouTube ads. And one day we were throwing away a film set. It was a $50,000 film set and it broke my heart.

 And I thought, I would sleep in this film set, especially if it was out in the wilderness somewhere. And so I sold that production company and there were some other macro trends too. I used to work at 20th Century Fox and I saw that the movie industry is reducing pretty quickly.

 And I thought the digital age maybe has reached its peak and maybe we’re going to go back to the physical in real life experiences or alternate reality even, you could call it, like slightly augmented reality. So I got really interested in that and thought maybe that’s where things are going to go with AI and AI robotics.

 People are not going to be working on their computers as much. There’s hopefully going to be a lot of abundance, hopefully a lot of mobility, personal aircraft. So I imagine people are going to want to spend their time in really beautiful places with unique experiences.

 So I’m just really bullish on hospitality in general. That’s why I just pivoted this direction. And it was really interesting too. Marc Andreessen, he’s one of the most prolific venture capitalists of all time, he tweeted actually last week.

 He said, “I co-sign.” And the tweet was, “As abundant things become more abundant, the things that are going to be in demand are things that are difficult to have an abundance of.” Hotels, experiences, community.

 And so I feel like that’s what we’re all a part of. And I just feel like this niche is going to grow. So I just wanted to do my own little type of thing with it.

[00:17:01] Zach Stoltenberg: Yeah, we’ve talked about that on the show before. Like how I think outdoor hospitality, and I think many people agree with me, that outdoor hospitality is perfectly positioned for what’s going to come. Because you only have so many rivers and so many forests and so many trees to sit next to. And you can’t duplicate that in any kind of AI virtual whatever.

 People want to touch, they want to feel, they want to smell. People have been disconnected from that stuff I think over the last 15 plus years as we’ve had phones in our hands. And I was telling my girlfriend when we were out and down in the Keys, like there’s just not an opportunity to be bored anymore.

 And so you don’t notice the waves, you don’t notice the ocean, you don’t notice the osprey, you don’t notice the, right? But that is going to be I think extremely coveted in the future we’re headed toward. And I think all of us are perfectly positioned to take advantage of it.

[00:17:45] Brian Searl: So are you… if let’s say I have a question, I have one more question for you. If somebody were to drop a billion dollars into your hands tomorrow, would you build Westworld?

[00:17:57] Travis Chambers: Probably. It feels like you’re taking baby steps maybe towards that future based on what you just said.

 Yeah, right now I like the 40 to 60 unit projects. I think projects can get too big where you could risk losing the whole project. So I feel like there’s a certain level of intimacy that you can’t really accomplish at scale.

 You’ll probably seen people go from 50 units to 100 units and start to have problems. That’s what I’ve noticed with some of my friends that own projects outside of Zion National Park. But yeah, I think that the even bigger vision, Brian, when you talk about Westworld, is converting this at some point into long-term living.

 And we see that Disney is now doing long-term living developments. And you just think about how do our communities change when people aren’t working on a laptop all day? What do they do with their time?

 And old European cities and even Puerto Rican towns seem much more equipped for that future than American towns that are built around cars and very isolated. And you spend a lot of time alone and there’s no mixed zoning, so no one can have a business in your neighborhood, which is really weird.

 So I feel like you talk about this Westworld thing, I wonder if a Westworldification is going to happen everywhere. I wonder if this experientialization and this hospitality element that we’re involved in is going to just be everything, everywhere is going to be like that. Community driven, agricultural, agrarian driven as well.

[00:19:42] Brian Searl: I would sign up for that. And I’m the biggest AI geek probably in outdoor hospitality that exists, right? But I still like to disconnect. I still like to be immersed. I still like to… and I would love to get to a place where I know everybody in my community for a couple blocks, right?

 I don’t know… I guess I could theoretically do that now, but it’d be weird to just walk up to people’s doors and knock and be like, “Hey, I’m your neighbor from two streets over.” It feels weird, even though it shouldn’t be weird. So if you can do some part to build almost like a neighborhood that’s what you’re saying is almost themed the same way. Does that make… and that’s too maybe loose of a word, but that brings the same type of people together who want to experience the same thing and thus the community interaction is easier? Am I going down the right path?

[00:20:27] Zach Stoltenberg: Yeah, I think we’re starting to see some of that. Travis mentioned kind of the Disney communities and stuff. Not my focus with our company, but other divisions within LJA do a lot of these master plan communities where developers coming in to build 800, 2,000 home lots.

 And at a $100,000 lot price, you’ve got to sell more than just ground. You’re selling a lifestyle, they’re selling a brand. And so we can call it theming, we can call it immersion, we can call it branding, whatever you want.

 But we’re seeing those master plan communities with resort-style swimming pools and top-tier amenities and clubs that would rival a Four Seasons. And I think when you look especially amongst younger generations, I’ll say Gen Z especially, they’re really putting a huge emphasis on lifestyle.

 You figure most of your life is spent at work or at home. And when you’re at home, wouldn’t it be great if it felt like you were on vacation? So I think we’re starting to see that trend already.

 And I also think that that’s probably one of the things that is pushing that ratcheting up of guest expectations when it does come to outdoor hospitality and resort development. What people have at home is getting nicer and nicer. So we’ve really got to up the ante when it comes to creating a unique experience.

 And I think Travis, to your credit, you’re probably one of the best in the business at having accomplished that.

[00:22:03] Brian Searl: If living at home feels like vacation, does vacation exist in the future or do you just swap homes with someone else?

[00:22:13] Jeremy Johnson: I think it’s not so much does vacation exist, but it’s wanting a different experience. I think Travis, I remember you talking about this on the podcast with Alex and Matt, where it’s like you can be anywhere in 24 to 48 hours. So your life might feel like vacation.

 Like I live in Marquette, Michigan. I’m on the shores of Lake Superior. To me, every day is vacation. I get to look out, I live on the biggest freshwater lake in North America. I love my life.

 But that doesn’t mean that I don’t want a completely different experience. I might want to go to Utah and be in the desert or go to Santa Fe and be in the desert. I want that different perspective.

 And I think that’s where that perspective, being able to give somebody a new perspective, that’s where there’s a lot of value, I think.

[00:23:08] Travis Chambers: Yeah, I agree with that. I think that we as a species, we’re really obsessed with storytelling. And the storytellers generally run society. The Aristotles, the Shakespeares. Or if our life is playing infinite games, then who’s the game maker? Whose games are we playing?

 And you see how big the video game industry is exploding. It’s multiples and multiples of the film industry now. And I think what happens is when a species gets more wealthy, they start living more like aristocrats. So it almost becomes post-monetary where your exchange of value is your style and your personality and your experiences and your perspectives, just like Jeremy said, and your art.

 And so if we do survive this AI thing and it does bring a lot of abundance and prosperity, then it seems like that exchange will possibly become one of the most valuable currencies. It will be, right? It will be Jeremy walking out and looking at this lake because he doesn’t have to live in Milwaukee anymore to make a living.

 He can live anywhere he wants. And because of that, he’s this really interesting character and it just seems like that is possibly going to be where things go. It’ll be interesting to see.

[00:24:33] Jeremy Johnson: I’m curious, Joy, we haven’t talked about your property too much yet, but I’m guessing you’re on a dairy farm. Is that an experience in British Columbia that people are seeking because they want to get out of the city or what was the idea and inspiration behind that?

[00:24:51] Joy de Vos: I guess my inspiration comes from being a 4-H leader. I’ve been a 4-H leader for 20 years and in this time I’ve mentored over 200 children to learn more about dairy, learn more about agriculture, being able to be public speakers and leaders for tomorrow. And along the way, I’ve encountered people that couldn’t tell that a bull calf was actually not a goat.

[00:25:14] Brian Searl: That would be me.

[00:25:16] Joy de Vos: Yeah, and when I had 21-year-olds making that kind of comment when I did a petting zoo, I thought, oh my goodness, we’re so out of touch. And so I decided with my husband that we would do an educational experience for people. It first started off with just doing dairy tours and working on how we farm it with the riparian area.

 We are a working dairy farm, third generation, and we’re hoping that it’ll go on to the fourth generation. So along our discussions, we decided, let’s do a campground. That sounds like fun. And then we talked about doing a store. We’ll have a little store to service the campground.

 And then it became my husband moving his stuff out of his shop and me turning it into a cute little general store. So you feel like you’ve come back in time because it looks like the late 1800s and you can see the cows from inside the store and get a coffee. You can go feed the chickens, you can camp on the farm, you can do an actual dairy tour or you can do a milking dairy tour where you get to go in there and milk the cows.

 And if you’re lucky, maybe you get shit on. An experience! And there’s so many people out of touch with agriculture and in our area, we’re starting to see more and more people wanting to get back in touch with their roots.

 And we would like to offer that opportunity to people who live in the city. Maybe they don’t have a backyard, they can’t do a garden. Come and check out our property.

[00:26:35] Travis Chambers: Zach, have you guys seen that Netflix show called “This is a Gardening Show”?

[00:26:39] Zach Stoltenberg: No, I haven’t.

[00:26:41] Travis Chambers: Oh, it’s pretty cool. He makes like the whole point that the future of everything is agrarian. In that the more abundant we are, the more we will all go back to an agrarian society where we’re farming and that will be our identity and how we spend our time.

[00:26:57] Jeremy Johnson: I can’t help but think of, I don’t know if anybody’s familiar, but there’s a very luxury high-end development, I think it’s called CERES in Chattahoochee Hills, Georgia, just outside of Atlanta. And it is completely agricultural based and very food focused.

 They’re growing food, but then also cooking on site, and we’re talking million-dollar lots. It’s exactly, Travis, what you’re talking about, Joy, what you’re talking about. These people have everything they could ever want, but yet they’re going back to this from-the-earth movement, and there’s this massive price tag on it because they’re just outside of Atlanta.

[00:27:38] Zach Stoltenberg: I think another thing that we’ve been seeing here recently with this growth, this focus on health and wellness, especially amongst people that have got more money than they will probably spend in their lifetime, or even that their children can spend. Their focus shifts from material things into living the best life of the years that they have remaining. Feeling good, feeling you can do whatever you want, and that recentral focus on health, longevity, wellness, and a huge part of that is diet.

 So I think all of these experiences that we’re trying to create to attract that type of a customer base, it’s not just the theming and the immersion and all of that. In order to hit that authenticity feel that is driving outdoor, it’s got to be holistic. It’s got to be the food, learning about it, tending it, meeting the staff that are cooking it and growing it, and it’s got to come full circle with all those components.

[00:28:39] Brian Searl: Yeah, I agree with that. I’m always one of those people who’s trying to learn as much as they can. So when we were down in Key West, I was going to the farmers markets, learning about the pink shrimp and the lobsters and the stone crab and all the things they have down there. Then trying to figure out where can I get it from the markets and how can I cook it in my glamping accommodation that I was in.

 So I think that for sure, it’s not farming, but it’s the same from the sea. It’s figuring out how that all connects to each other, to the experience. We stayed at a couple glamping accommodations, I would call them glamping, that were basically cottages that this guy built on top of catamarans in Key West.

 They rent for something like $500 a night. I think they’re called Outpost 1 and 2 from a company called Mellow Ventures. There’s a couple competitors down there, but it’s very rare. He’s basically built these custom cottages that float on catamarans.

 They’re anchored in the middle of the harbor in Key West in four-foot crystal clear water. You go out there and there’s no air conditioning, you’re just out there in this cabin in the middle of the water. We stayed there for three nights and it was one of the most relaxing things I think I’ve done. Just being disconnected and being able to cook my fresh food from the market, learning about the shrimp and the fish and the types of stuff that’s swimming by me. I’m a buyer, I’m a believer in that.

 Maybe that’s your next idea, Travis. We go from Westworld to Waterworld.

[00:30:08] Travis Chambers: It’s funny, we…

[00:30:09] Brian Searl: But it’s got to be better than Waterworld, man. That’s a very low bar for a movie to set.

[00:30:15] Travis Chambers: It’s funny, we have been looking at barges and catamarans here in Puerto Rico to do that kind of experience.

[00:30:25] Brian Searl: Yeah, it’s one of the most unique things that I’ve ever seen and done. And he built it really well.

[00:30:31] Travis Chambers: It’s so funny, we were literally talking last week about doing a catamaran. I’m thinking, why don’t we just buy a barge and build a little village on the barge? This is cool, this is really inspiring.

[00:30:43] Jeremy Johnson: There’s a project, I think it’s just outside of Toledo. I’d have to look on the map, but it’s in the middle of nowhere Ohio and it’s on Lake Erie. This younger guy bought a commercial marina with 14 slips, and I think he gets an average of four or $500 a night because he turned it into this little micro resort where everything’s on the water.

 He’s got little food trucks that pull up to his marina, and it’s just this whole experience that you typically wouldn’t get in this post-industrial area that was nothing but iron ore shipping in the past. It’s cool that he was able to turn that around. I think we all talk about how land is becoming more and more a scarce commodity, but water even more so, especially nice fresh water or even nice sea water as well.

[00:31:41] Brian Searl: Joy, where do you see Foxtrot Dairy going? You said it was new, the campground side of it?

[00:31:46] Joy de Vos: Yeah, it took us a while to get the campground up and running because it’s my husband and I that are trying to forge ahead with it. We have limited capital to getting it started up, but I think we’ve done really well. We’re held at a capacity of 10 campsites because we’re on the agricultural land reserve, and so that means that we have to preserve it for farming as a main economy.

 The campground itself is really just there for the educational aspect of dairy farming. We have 10 campsites, two of them are full hookup service. We have a septic system, we have actual showers, not porta-potties. We have it planned to set up as a little village eventually as we gain the capital to invest into it.

 The hope is that people will set it as a journey destination for their families, that they’ll all come here and do their family reunions and see the cows going back and forth from the campground. You can see the dry cows going back and forth, you can see our horse, and our goats are within the campground. So it really is a little farm that we’re trying to set up there, and you’re right beside the farm.

 On the other side of the bushes is the farm, and you don’t actually hear the cows. It’s amazing what a bush can do. The store is open, people are able to come over and be on the main farmyard. We’re really just hoping that schools and people that are interested in learning about where their milk comes from, how we farm, why we farm, why are the decisions that we make made.

 They’re made because we have to work within our ability with our land, and within the nutrition of the animals, and with staying environmentally friendly. So we have a lot of hoops to jump through, and the agricultural land reserve is a special land that’s put aside for farming. I see us enjoying and meeting lots of people from around the country, maybe around other countries, to come and just really have a great experience.

 I think for us, seeing a child learn that milk comes from a cow, I’ve seen it. Kids are like, “Wow, that happens?” And they’re like, “That’s where my ice cream comes from?” Yes, that’s where your ice cream comes from.

[00:34:07] Brian Searl: The most important thing that comes from a cow, ice cream.

[00:34:09] Joy de Vos: Oh yeah, it is. That butter. When people come to our store, we have products from little mom-and-pop businesses. So really just trying to support that local community as much as possible, working together and showcasing healthy, nutritious products, thinking about what people need to live a happy, healthy life.

 I don’t know, I’m still learning. This is exciting and it’s nerve-wracking all at the same time, but I look forward to my plans.

[00:34:40] Brian Searl: If you ever stop learning, you’ll be bored, so I hope you keep learning. Is it just RV or do you have any intentions to add accommodations like cabins or glamping or anything out there?

[00:34:50] Joy de Vos: I do want to add glamping. I want to make a miniature village of our farm, but that again requires capital. I would like to make a replica of our actual farm within there and have themed cabins for the milk house, the calf barn, the shop, and with educational history pictures on the inside.

 I have the designs already, I just don’t have the capital to get it going. So in time, I plan to have all the sites hooked up and all with power, but we know power is expensive, so that’ll take a little bit of time. But when it’s all set up and done, it’ll be a really cute place that people will want to come to. Then I hope while they’re here, they see the wineries and the other dairy farms near us and just really get to know the agricultural footprint within our communities.

[00:35:38] Brian Searl: It is one of the hardest things, and I’ll just admit this from my perspective. It’s been one of the hardest things I’ve learned over the last few years, running my business, working 110 hours a week for 15 plus years, seven days a week, because I love what I do. It’s really been hard for me to immerse myself into the type of experience, to go to the places.

 I take a vacation, but I realized two years ago that I was walking along a beach, I think it was actually in Vancouver Island. I realized I’m walking along this beach and I’m thinking about business. I’m not appreciating that I’m on a beach, I’m not appreciating the ocean is right here, appreciating there’s a time to disconnect.

 So I’ve tried to reframe that thinking, but it’s hard in the modern world for a lot of people to get to that place with all the distractions that we have and opportunities to not be bored. Is that just me or is that sentiment out there with more of you?

[00:36:25] Joy de Vos: I find that all the time.

[00:36:32] Jeremy Johnson: I don’t think it’s just you. I will say as somebody who lives in the upper Midwest, I think that’s the thing I appreciate the most about seasons. The seasons make you slow down, whether it’s winter or spring or fall.

 We got over 300 inches of snow this year where I live in Ishpeming. When you have that kind of snow, you can’t just go out the door and go to wherever you’re going. You have to slow down, you have to move the snow.

 At least for me, it makes me think differently. Instead of just rushing out the door and hopping in my car, I think, you know what, it might be easier and more fun if I skied down to the coffee shop. That’s what I did multiple times this winter.

 That makes life a little bit more fun to have that disconnect and get out of that regular pattern of thinking about business or the most efficient or the biggest ROI you can get on a project.

[00:37:27] Brian Searl: That’s why I really like the houseboats. We had to take a boat out there from the marina, a 10, 15-minute ride out from the boatyard, and we couldn’t leave. We could call somebody if we wanted to and pay for a boat, but we were in the middle of the water.

 We weren’t going anywhere even if I wanted to. So we had to go grocery shopping, we had to bring our provisions, we had ice coolers, we didn’t have a full refrigerator. We had to think and plan and clearly disconnect and understand what we needed, and it was great.

[00:37:55] Jeremy Johnson: One of my favorite places is actually in the Upper Peninsula, about 50 minutes away from where I live. It’s called the Huron Mountain Club. When you go up that club road and you pass through the gates, you’ve got no service, you’re completely disconnected.

 The closest store to get gas, food, anything, water, is probably 45 minutes down the road, and it’s a dirt road. It brings on a little bit of anxiety because you’re wondering, did I forget something? But then as you settle in, you realize it doesn’t matter.

 You might think, oh shoot, I forgot my phone charger, and you realize, you know what, I’m here, who cares? That feeling is invaluable to have. 

 On that same note, one of the future projects I’m working on is on the shores of Lake Superior, and one of the components of it is a private beach that you can only access by walking through a wetland. We’re going to be building a raised boardwalk to get to that wetland and it’s probably about a thousand feet of boardwalk, but it’s a 10, 15 minute walk and it’s like you’re walking through pretty deep thick wetland and you might get bit by a mosquito.

 Like there might, you might get hit in the face with a branch. That’s fine. There’s an element of uncomfortableness to it, but then you get to that beach and I’m sure Travis, it’s probably like you walk through the jungle to get to the waterfalls.

 Like you get to that beach and everything just changes. You’re like, this was worth it. I call it type two fun. Walking to that waterfall might not have been fun, but then you get there, you see how beautiful it is and you’re like, it was all worth it. None of it matters now.

[00:39:39] Brian Searl: I just, you need to give me a bug suit, man, because I’m the one guy in the world where every mosquito will find me from 10 miles away, man. They all like me. But I would agree with you.

 Yeah, forgetting the phone charger, there are certain things that you don’t want to forget. We got out to the boat and realized we forgot the tequila and the cocktail mix in the car, so we had to go back. 10 minute ride.

[00:39:58] Jeremy Johnson: Brian, I’ve got to jump early today, but I appreciate being on and getting to talk with all of you and good luck for the last 15 minutes here.

[00:40:06] Brian Searl: Thanks, Jeremy. Appreciate you being here.

[00:40:08] Jeremy Johnson: Bye guys.

[00:40:11] Brian Searl: So how do we keep moving this conversation forward in outdoor hospitality? How do we get more people into the way of thinking that… and we’ve talked about experiential hospitality for a couple years, right? Loosely. Never anything probably as in-depth as Travis being on the show, right, with experiences like that. But does the outdoor hospitality industry need to reframe some of the thinking or are we headed in the right direction already or what do you think, Zach? You work with a lot of these businesses.

[00:40:38] Zach Stoltenberg: I don’t know that I would say reframe. One of the things I love about this industry is that there’s room for everyone. And I don’t know that there’s any one right way or wrong way of doing it. And that’s probably a perspective for me that’s changed a lot over the years.

 Early on in doing these, the majority of the folks we were working with had a lot of capital behind them. There was a lot of money available and people were doing that. But seeing what Joy and her husband are doing, saying, “Hey, we’re going to do this a little bit at a time. We’re going to be restricted by capital. We’re going to start small and make this work.”

 I see a lot of people that have done that and done so very successfully. And maybe their first one was that way, then it started to take off and getting a loan or some investment to expand or move to their second or third site, that became a lot easier.

 But I think Travis, you mentioned Ben Wolff earlier. I think we’re seeing a lot of innovators in this space that are coming in that are figuring out what works for them. You don’t have to spend two grand a month with Google and Meta for ads for marketing for your place, right?

 These guys have worked with influencers, they’ve built social media campaigns, millions of followers, and they’re doing only direct booking. Where a lot of other campgrounds would say, “Oh gosh, we get so much off of our Facebook ads. It’s the most successful marketing we do.”

 So I don’t know. I guess it’s a roundabout way of saying I don’t know what the answer is to that. Like where do we go from here? I think certainly there’s something to be learned for people who are doing it, have tried something new and are really successful with it.

 And Travis, I’m sure you’re starting to see too, you captured this sort of lightning in a bottle with your first site, you built a massive online following. I’m anxious to see, does that carry over into a second site, a third site? Does that carry over into a site out of the country? And then how does that shape your journey of what’s next? Any thoughts on that?

[00:42:40] Travis Chambers: Yeah, I think it just comes down to a good story. Like Joy is a story, right? She’s been doing the farming club for 20 years. This is her life, right? This is her lifestyle.

 And there’s something romantic about entering someone else’s lifestyle. It’s a cultural experience. And so it really, it’s just that’s what culture is. And I think in the United States, cultures are very disjointed.

 And I think what we’re talking about exists in a lot of deep cultures in the world already. Morocco is a hospitality zone. There’s just this richness, there’s a certain type of food, there’s a certain type of tradition, there’s a certain type of clothing. When you go to Morocco, you are in a movie. You really are.

 And so you go to Joy’s place, you’re in this society, you’re in this community, you’re in this way of life. I think that’s what people want. I think people want as many experiences as they can have. And it just naturally seems to be what people spend their time and money on.

 And it’s pretty crazy. This is a really strange concept, but if you are a coal miner and all you do your whole life is mine coal and don’t have any other experiences, time is going to be very compressed. But the more experiences you have, it’s like the more time you create because you’re experiencing new things.

 They’ve done studies on this. It really sounds wild, but you’ve lived half of your life by the time you’re 20 because the way we perceive time, because you generally are having less new experiences. You’re in a routine. And so if you want to live a longer life, you go have more experiences. Unless you just really love what you have.

 I think that’s what people want. Obviously if people are stuck in survival mode, like the majority of people on earth are still in a survival situation. I have to do this job so that I can eat, so I can have a shelter over my head. So really the stuff we’re talking about is what do you do when that’s not the case anymore?

 What happens when you’re not in a survival mode? How do you spend your time? Where do you go? And we know that people spend it on travel. They spend a lot of it on travel.

 And we see it too, a lot of people buy stuff, right? But once they reach a certain level of abundance, they don’t buy as much stuff. That’s what happened with me. I sold my company, bought a bunch of really stupid things I didn’t need. It didn’t make me happy.

 So then I got rid of them and just went right back to the adventure part of it. So I think the other thing that’s happening is the tourism market is getting younger. So a majority of tourism was over 60 years old for most of our era because they’re the ones that have disposable time and income.

 But I just think that there’s just more money going around. The upper middle class has doubled or tripled in the last 20 years and people are getting a lot more mobility, and they’re not spending as much money on where they live. They’re spending their money on going places and they have the flexibility to do that, which is not something that has really been around for a long time.

[00:46:05] Brian Searl: Yeah, I think my answer to that question, and I don’t know if I have the answer like you do, Zach, but I think my answer is to gently nudge people toward creating their own whatever unique experience is in their head, right? For Travis, that’s what he’s building. For Ben Wolff, that’s something different. For the clients that you have, Zach, that’s something different.

 I think there’s been perhaps a majority, and I’m not saying that’s 60% or whatever, right, but a majority of people who are developing in outdoor hospitality that have just said, “Look, here’s something that works. Let me do that also.” Instead of, “Look, here’s something that works. Let me tweak that to make it work for me or my audience or my niche or what I want to accomplish.”

 Let me add an RV park or glamping to a dairy farm instead of just building an RV park, if that makes sense. So I think that’s where we need to maybe encourage people to go.

 And I think there’s significantly, there are people that are going there, like Travis and Ben and some of your clients, Zach, and other people that we’ve had on this show. I think those voices would be well served for our industry to be more visible at some of the industry conferences that we have.

[00:47:15] Travis Chambers: Yeah, I always bring it back to storytelling. How do you make your property not a commodity? Like Joy’s property is not a commodity at all.

 You’re going to milk cows, you’re going to do things that you can’t just walk into someone’s dairy and milk their cow. You can’t do that anywhere in society. It’s like you would get shot. You might get in trouble, but you could.

[00:47:35] Brian Searl: You’re just going to walk in here and just milk my cow without even… what?

[00:47:40] Travis Chambers: The disrespect! So that’s the problem is too many people say, “I’m going to do a glamping project.” What is… guys, I almost feel like you could finish my sentence. What is the first thing they say? “Oh, I’m going to do domes.” It’s always the same thing.

 I always come to the same conclusion. And I would recommend to people, go figure out what your story is. Go figure out what your unique world is that you want people to enter because domes is not enough.

 It’s enough if you’re right next to a national park, then it is enough. But do you really want to just add another commodity to the world? I love Rick Rubin. He’s my favorite music producer.

 He always says there’s a difference between art and commerce. Commerce is what you make what you think people want. Art is you make what you love. And that’s what I’ve tried to do with my projects.

 What do I love deeply, love? And it’s like if you’re going to build a project like this and you don’t know what you love, then you got to go find out. You got to go find out.

[00:48:45] Brian Searl: What’s your unique story that you want to tell in the world?

 All right, last few minutes. Travis, do you have any questions for Joy or Zachary? We kind of let the guests take over, so do you have a question you want to ask either one of those two?

[00:49:00] Travis Chambers: Yeah, Joy, my question for you is I’d love to know more about how you… how do you do this whole guest experience? Is it like a choose your own adventure thing? Is there a schedule?

[00:49:16] Joy de Vos: It’s a choose your own adventure thing and we schedule based on demand. We could have tour times, but what we’ve decided to do is work with when they’re actually being demanded so that we can be prepared with the staff to take people through the tour. We have to do biosecurity.

 We have to be prepared that people carry disease, animals have disease, and we have to make sure that both work together. So we have to make sure people’s hands are sanitized. If you’re doing the milking dairy tour, we’ll be providing you with the gumboots and the overalls so that you don’t have to worry about staining your lovely camping outfit.

 But mainly people, we want them to come and camp and just enjoy the animals that are available all the time and kick back and relax and forget about real life because real life is really hard. And then when you want to do a dairy tour, we’ll try to do them in the morning and answer the questions as best as we can.

 And we would target our dairy tours based on who our client is at that moment. If they’re young children, we keep it simple. If they’re older and they’re college students and they’re trying to learn something about agriculture, then we’ll be more in depth.

 If it’s the general person, just an understanding of how we work with our environment to be good stewards of the land and how we look after our animals. We love our girls. They all sleep on waterbeds in case anybody’s wondering. And they’re very happy.

 And we’ll develop as we’re going along because obviously I’ve only been doing this for the last 12 months or 14 months with opening up the store and working towards this plan. And still I don’t even know what to put in my brochures. I have a brochure, but maybe my ideas will be different in six months from now.

 And our campground can host tents and RVs. And right now we only have two full hookups. The rest are dry until we eventually get to our end goal.

[00:51:18] Travis Chambers: That’s really cool. My one of my favorite experiences, my grandpa had a dairy farm. My dad grew up on a dairy farm and I used to go there as a kid, climb around the barn, find old… I’d find his old mail and checks to the IRS and stuff from the 50s. It was so much fun. Like it was this… and it’s like how many people really get that experience? Zachary, what’s your favorite thing that you’ve designed so far?

[00:51:44] Zach Stoltenberg: I get this question a lot and I think the best answer I can say is my favorite thing is whatever I’m working on right now. Which the current project, it’s also in Utah. I can share a little bit about it, but I’ll say this is the first time instead of building or erecting a unit, we are excavating the units out of rock.

 So that’s been very unique, very different. Some challenges with it. Everybody on my team has just poured themselves into it and I think when it finally comes to fruition, it’s going to be absolutely incredible. But I think yeah, my best answer would be whatever I’m working on right now.

 Because I think when you put a piece of yourself into what you’re designing, when you get passionate about it, when you get turned on, you get your team excited about it, when your client is 100% into it, that’s when we get our best result. That’s when we create something that’s really incredible.

 And those are the properties that it might be a year or two later that they’re finally open and hosting guests and all those things that we talked about, all those ideas, those conversations, even some of the crazy hairball stuff that we came up with that’s like, I don’t know if it’ll work or not, but we’ll give it a shot. And then that’s the thing that got the million views on Instagram.

 And so that’s the way we work. But yeah, for me it’s always whatever we’re doing right now. That’s what I’m passionate about.

[00:53:13] Travis Chambers: Was it hard to get permits? Was it hard to engineer building into rock?

[00:53:19] Zach Stoltenberg: It’s been interesting. The permit side not so much. The county and the state have been reasonable to work with. But some of the testing, the geotech, the borings, working with a really knowledgeable crew that’s used to doing drilling and blasting and some of those things. We had big questions and they were like, “Yeah, we do this all the time.”

 And so I would say the most difficult thing was us, our education and learning what is possible and then listening to those trades and those contractors and saying, “Yeah, we can do that.” And we sent him a few crazy things and he’s like, “I’ve never done that before, but I think I can do it.”

 And there’s been some things that he pushed back a little bit. “If you want a column there, leave it at least six or eight feet wide. Don’t give me a two foot column, that’s going to crack and break on me.” So it’s been very interesting, very educational, but it’s been a ton of fun. And I’ve got it… we’re working on it with a client who is one of the most passionate people that I think I’ve ever worked for before.

[00:54:19] Brian Searl: We need to get you your own TV show, Zach. Do you remember that TV show with the people who went around and built the crazy fish tanks? I can’t remember what it’s called.

[00:54:27] Zach Stoltenberg: I don’t need a show, but…

[00:54:29] Brian Searl: Tanked, yeah. 

[00:54:30] Zach Stoltenberg: I would love to do… maybe Netflix needs to do a pilot series on building experiential stays and go out and follow some of these crews with folks like what Travis is doing out there to see that sort of behind the scenes of what’s going on. I think there’s three or four I think they could go shoot right now.

[00:54:48] Brian Searl: It would be interesting for sure. We’re a couple minutes over. Joy, do you have a last question for Zach or Travis before we go?

[00:54:58] Joy de Vos: I can’t think of anything at this moment. Sorry.

[00:55:01] Brian Searl: No, that’s perfectly fine. All right, final thoughts. Joy, any final thoughts? And then where can they find out more about Foxtrot Dairy?

[00:55:07] Joy de Vos: We’re foxtrotdairy.ca and we have .com, but .com is sleeping. I made sure to buy both panhandles to make sure that they’re mine. Just that we provide our own beef when we’re… when you’re at our farm. And we have our own lamb and pork and we’ve brought in some select agricultural products from different vendors and just trying to provide what you would need when you come here. Come and visit us and pet a goat. Say hi to the chickens, say hi to the cows, say hi to me. I’ll tell you a lot.

[00:55:41] Brian Searl: Thank you, Joy, for being here. I appreciate it. I’m looking forward to seeing your success. Zach, any final thoughts or where can they learn more about LJA?

[00:55:48] Zach Stoltenberg: You can reach out to me on LinkedIn or Instagram. Like I always said, never charged anybody for a phone call. We’d love to talk to people. Maybe we can help you, maybe we can’t. But my email is just zstoltenberg@lja.com.

 And again, most of our advertising, I like to say, is not us. It’s through the clients, through the properties we’ve worked with. I think they’re our best testament. We like kind of being the folks in the background that help people that are doing wonderful things.

 And Joy, I want to design mini barns for you. I want little experiential stay units. I want them to be able to sit in bed and look up and see the cows at the foot of the bed.

 I want the kids to be able to sleep up in the hayloft for the evening. I think we could do some really fun stuff. And I grew up on a cattle ranch, so not that far detracted from it. I was a 4-H kid too.

[00:56:43] Joy de Vos: Yeah, 4-H is such a valuable program. If all of our children were in it, we would have a bit of a different society today. Please reach out to me.

[00:56:52] Zach Stoltenberg: I will.

[00:56:53] Brian Searl: Last but not least, Travis, any final thoughts and where can they find out more about the projects you have going on?

[00:56:58] Travis Chambers: Yeah, I’m on Instagram, travis_chambers. And then you can check out Outpost X on Instagram or Outpost X Jungle for the island project.

[00:57:07] Brian Searl: All right, thank you guys for being here. I appreciate it. Join us for another episode of MC Fireside Chats. If you’re not sick and tired of hearing from me, I will have another live podcast in about 45 minutes or so with Scott Bahr, who we’re going to talk about data research, AI, tech, all that kind of stuff.

 So join us there. If not, we’ll see you next week for another episode of MC Fireside Chats. Thanks guys. Take care.

[00:57:25] Travis Chambers: Thanks guys.

[00:57:27] Zach Stoltenberg: Thanks everybody.

[00:57:28] Joy de Vos: Thank you.

[00:57:29] Brian Searl: With Insider Perks and Modern Campground, excited to be here with you. Back from the Florida Keys, my dog is laying next to me. She missed me for 12 days or however long I was gone, so we have more separation anxiety than normal. But excited to be back here for another episode of Fireside Chats.

 We got Zach, recurring guest, Jeremy, recurring guest, Travis as a special guest, and Joy as our special guest today. I want to go around the room and just introduce everybody. Zach, you want to start?

[00:57:54] Zach Stoltenberg: Sure. My name is Zach Stoltenberg. I’m the Associate Principal for Architecture with LJA Engineering. We help people design, build, permit, and entitle outdoor hospitality. So glamping, camping, luxury RV parks, boutique hotels, and experiential stays.

[00:58:12] Brian Searl: Awesome. Welcome back, Zach. Appreciate you being here. Jeremy?

[00:58:15] Jeremy Johnson: Hey guys, my name is Jeremy. I’m one of the owners of Kona Hills Campground in Marquette, Michigan. Actually on site today, getting ready to open next weekend. We finally got bright sunny weather above 50 degrees in Northern Michigan, so I’m feeling good.

[00:58:30] Brian Searl: It’s warm here too. Yeah, we got lucked out. Although it’s supposed to be cold this weekend, so we’ll see for the holiday up here anyway. Joy?

[00:58:39] Joy de Vos: Hi, my name is Joy de Vos and I’m from British Columbia. We opened up our campground this year and we’re looking at trying to give people the experience on a dairy farm.

[00:58:50] Brian Searl: Welcome, Joy. Is it going to be cold over there in BC like us? Is it going to be like nine here for the holiday weekend?

[00:58:56] Joy de Vos: I think it’s around 10 and it’s cloudy. Yeah, this is not my background. I would have liked to have had my farm background, but I’ll just go with your pre-made avatar here.

[00:59:11] Brian Searl: Travis, last but not least, sir.

[00:59:13] Travis Chambers: Hey, Travis Chambers here. Company is Outpost X and we build immersive adventure hotels or micro resorts, not sure what to call them. But we’re here today in Rincon, Puerto Rico. We’re building an avatar-inspired project in our jungle here.

[00:59:30] Brian Searl: Awesome. Excited to learn more about that, Travis. Thanks for being here. I appreciate it. So normally how we start the show, everybody knows, or Jeremy and Zach know, we just toss it to you guys. Is there anything that you guys have felt has come across your desk in the last few weeks since we’ve been together on this specific show that you think is worthy of talking about?

[00:59:49] Jeremy Johnson: Man, I don’t know if it’s just my feed showing it to me, but I feel like everybody seems to be harping on dynamic pricing lately. That seems to be such a big thing that 2026 is all about. I don’t know if anybody here has utilized it in their projects yet.

[01:00:06] Brian Searl: So here’s a question. Are we talking about real dynamic pricing or are we talking about what the campground industry has, which is basically yield management?

[01:00:14] Jeremy Johnson: I think that’s also the consensus from everybody that I’m talking to or everybody that I’m seeing in my feed. Everybody’s saying turning on PriceLabs or turning on dynamic pricing in Newbook isn’t quite cutting it anymore. There’s a manual process behind all of it that most people aren’t fully exploring, it seems.

[01:00:33] Brian Searl: Where do you think, Jeremy, as an owner of a campground obviously, what do you think is missing? What do you think is the biggest gap between where we need to go? Because there are steps, right? We’re not going to get to Disney tomorrow or Delta Airlines tomorrow. But where’s the step the industry needs to take to get us from where we are now to where we should be?

[01:00:52] Jeremy Johnson: On the campground side, it’s hard for me to say because we use Parc as our PMS and they just introduced flexible pricing across dates, but they don’t have any dynamic pricing or dynamic pricing integrations. I’m also very rustic, as you know, Brian. So I don’t have a lot of amenities. A base price works really easy for me.

 I don’t need to go up or down a whole lot compared to somebody with maybe higher demand or more amenities or different site types. So it’s hard for me to say, but I think the one thing that I’ve noticed on my end, whether it’s with Airbnb or even thinking about the campground, is there’s not a lot of consideration for my individual properties. You can set a base floor, but you can’t set a dynamic floor.

 I would like to be able to set a dynamic floor based on the season, where most software just lets you set one single floor. So I think taking into account more of the uniqueness of your property and not just a single equation would be really helpful with a lot of these softwares.

[01:02:00] Brian Searl: Zach, anybody else have anything to add? Travis, Joy?

[01:02:04] Zach Stoltenberg: I think some of that is still coming out of the influence of traditional hospitality. All those systems and mechanisms, the booking software, they’re built for that traditional model. Everything about outdoor hospitality is so unique and different. Looking at Travis’s property, even with different seasons, I think his demand is always there because it’s such a unique property.

 I think traditional hotels, their demand drivers are typically events. Maybe there’s a concert, maybe there’s a convention, a gathering, a meetup, something like that, and they’ll of course raise prices because they know there’s more demand on those particular event weekends. But I think there’s not a good way to measure those demand drivers when it comes from that experiential perspective.

 The other thing I think to answer your first question, Brian, that I noticed, we’re coming off of back-to-back conventions with the Texas Association of Campground Owners, the TACO event, and then the Florida and Alabama convention. The thing that we heard kind of harped on repeatedly at both of those events was that campground owners need to be paying attention to non-RV.

 With the RV market kind of stabilizing, softening a little bit, there’s a big push right now into cabins, park models, glamping tents, other accommodation options for all those people who want to come and have that camping experience but don’t necessarily own an RV.

[01:03:34] Brian Searl: How do we, and maybe we don’t want to take this over the whole show and go down this direction, but it’s just interesting to me. Is it possible to build a dynamic pricing model for experiences or experiential? To measure what the guest is not only experiencing in the accommodation, but what they’re feeling, how their stay goes, what the landscaping is, everything that you do, Zach, to design the resorts, everything that Travis does with the accommodations, everything Jeremy does from operations that feed into that experience. Or is that unnecessary?

[01:04:03] Zach Stoltenberg: I think that’s the rub here, right? That’s the challenge is how do you, what’s the data measurement, the metric that you would use to drive that dynamic pricing when it’s experience-based?

[01:04:20] Brian Searl: Anybody have any ideas? Travis, you have an idea? You build…

[01:04:26] Travis Chambers: Yeah, I’m not a dynamic pricing expert.

[01:04:28] Brian Searl: No, but you’re an accommodation expert. You’re an experience guy, right?

[01:04:31] Travis Chambers: Yeah. I actually just texted my business partner to ask him if we do it. I don’t know if we have a software running, I’ll ask him. I know we were doing it manually, but most of our demand is driven by marketing and influencers and stuff. So I don’t know if dynamic helps us a little bit less. I know Ben Wolff does a ton of it. He talks about it all the time. So I’m waiting on an answer from my partner on that.

[01:04:57] Brian Searl: In the meantime, while you wait on the answer from your partner, tell us what you’re building, Travis.

[01:05:02] Travis Chambers: Yeah, so we’re building these, basically they’re movie set hotels. So they’re highly experiential. We’re trying to pull that lever as much as possible, and experiential hospitality is kind of a growing niche right now. So when you enter the project, you’re entering a movie scene.

 There’s a whole story, there’s a podcast that you listen to on the way there with dialogue and characters and plot lines and backstories. You get to the project, you enter this super themed unit. We try to remove all of your connections to the modern world, to your life, and you’re just in this 48-hour kind of experience.

 It’s almost like the movie version if you were going to go train with samurai or go in the Amazon rainforest with a tribe or go on a safari. We’re trying to create that level of immersive experience. So we have art cars that you can drive around. There’s an audio tour with historical signs throughout the property of things that are not real, they’re just our fictional world.

 It’s a choose your own adventure place. There’s a cantina with mocktails that you can make. There’s an earth lodge that’s a Moroccan interior with mint tea and all these random delicacies and snacks that we made up that are part of our culture. But it’s cool. We’re mixing a lot of things together.

 It’s like a landscape hotel, it’s like an Airbnb, it’s like a resort, but not. So it’s actually difficult to explain exactly what it is, but it’s like a movie set kind of experience. And now here in Puerto Rico, we’re doing this avatar-inspired experience.

 And so you arrive at this jungle trading post, right, that’s hidden into this jungle here. This old kind of colonial thing that’s happening here. And then you descend down into the jungle to ancient times. And we’re going to have a lighting design, projection mapping where the whole jungle comes alive, and you have this art walk experience.

 And then there’s waterfalls down at the bottom with lagoons. So we’re just trying to create this magic, kind of surreal cinematic experience for people.

[01:07:25] Brian Searl: Is it fair to say that then you’re basically putting someone in a personalized movie of their own making?

[01:07:32] Travis Chambers: Yeah. It’s hard to explain. I’m still working on the pitch.

[01:07:37] Brian Searl: I like that. I like a challenge like that, right? Because you’re creating your own thing that hasn’t been done before in the ways that you’ve been doing it. And I think that innovation is probably sorely needed in the outdoor hospitality industry.

[01:07:51] Travis Chambers: Yeah, so far it seems to be working. We opened Outpost X Utah two years ago. We’ve had 87% occupancy, $441 ADR. And so we’ll see how it goes here in Puerto Rico.

[01:08:04] Brian Searl: How do you do marketing to the consumer who is unfamiliar with a product like yours? Like obviously you can say all the things you just told us, right? But how do you convince the guest who’s never experienced something like yours that it’s worth the $441 ADR or whatever it is to come and do all that?

[01:08:21] Travis Chambers: Yeah, so our project in Utah is three hours from Vegas and an hour and 45 minutes west of Zion. So it’s absolutely in the middle of nowhere. And we wanted to do this experiment. Can we get someone to go in the middle of nowhere? Can we pull that off?

 The thing that’s worked has been medium-sized travel influencers. And these are people who just find experiences and explain them to their audience. It’s done really well. I’d say we’ve spent maybe $30,000 total in two years on influencers to do about 250 million views on social media. And to our knowledge, we’re the most viewed hospitality product in Utah.

[01:09:06] Brian Searl: Something to hang your hat on for sure. Especially with all the national parks there and all the amazing geography. Zach, you have any questions for Travis?

[01:09:15] Zach Stoltenberg: One, I love that you’re in Rincon. I actually spent Christmas a year ago in Rincon at Crash Boat Beach and I love that area of Puerto Rico. It’s absolutely incredible and the people there are absolutely wonderful. That’s pretty exciting. I’m anxious to see you focusing on that.

 Talk a little bit about just some of the challenges of those remote sites. Solving some of the problems of utilities, of infrastructure, of getting trades to come out to be able to actually do work on the property. Is it bringing a crew in or is it sourcing it locally? Because I think you’re doing something that is amazing and wonderful, but everybody would be doing it if it was easy.

 And I know that it’s not easy. I know that you’ve taken honestly probably one of the more difficult paths in order to get there. So maybe just tell us a little bit about what that journey’s been like and your approach to it and some of the things that have worked for you.

[01:10:10] Travis Chambers: Yeah, thanks Zach. Yeah, we’ve tried just about everything. Hiring a builder, we’ve tried getting local people. So where we’ve landed is we now have a mobile construction crew, people who are willing to travel and live on site. Generally that’s been the best for us.

 That requires a lot of hands-on management and a lot of planning. It’s not maybe the easiest way to do it, but it’s definitely the most cost-efficient way to do it. And so we’ve got 25 people living here on the job site right now. And I’ll actually show you, we’ve just rolled out all this prefab housing, basically just air-conditioned units.

 And then we’ve got these showers and bathrooms. And the advantage of that is a lot of this infrastructure for the crew, we end up reusing for staff to live on site and for our laundry room and back of house, things like that. That seems to be going well.

 And in Puerto Rico is an additional challenge. There’s not a lot of builders, there’s not a lot of laborers in general in Puerto Rico. They’re really hard to get. So just bringing people from the mainland has been huge. We already did the test experiment with a lot of locals and things and they were pretty good, but it was just a little bit more difficult, not moving quite as quick.

[01:11:39] Brian Searl: Anybody else have any questions for Travis?

[01:11:44] Joy de Vos: I’m curious, how did you come up with this idea of doing what you’re doing? Because it sounds really exciting.

[01:11:51] Travis Chambers: I had a film production company. We were making hundreds of commercials a year for Facebook, Instagram, YouTube ads. And one day we were throwing away a film set. It was a $50,000 film set and it broke my heart.

 And I thought, I would sleep in this film set, especially if it was out in the wilderness somewhere. And so I sold that production company and there were some other macro trends too. I used to work at 20th Century Fox and I saw that the movie industry is reducing pretty quickly.

 And I thought the digital age maybe has reached its peak and maybe we’re going to go back to the physical in real life experiences or alternate reality even, you could call it, like slightly augmented reality. So I got really interested in that and thought maybe that’s where things are going to go with AI and AI robotics.

 People are not going to be working on their computers as much. There’s hopefully going to be a lot of abundance, hopefully a lot of mobility, personal aircraft. So I imagine people are going to want to spend their time in really beautiful places with unique experiences.

 So I’m just really bullish on hospitality in general. That’s why I just pivoted this direction. And it was really interesting too. Marc Andreessen, he’s one of the most prolific venture capitalists of all time, he tweeted actually last week.

 He said, “I co-sign.” And the tweet was, “As abundant things become more abundant, the things that are going to be in demand are things that are difficult to have an abundance of.” Hotels, experiences, community.

 And so I feel like that’s what we’re all a part of. And I just feel like this niche is going to grow. So I just wanted to do my own little type of thing with it.

[01:13:44] Zach Stoltenberg: Yeah, we’ve talked about that on the show before. Like how I think outdoor hospitality, and I think many people agree with me, that outdoor hospitality is perfectly positioned for what’s going to come. Because you only have so many rivers and so many forests and so many trees to sit next to. And you can’t duplicate that in any kind of AI virtual whatever.

 People want to touch, they want to feel, they want to smell. People have been disconnected from that stuff I think over the last 15 plus years as we’ve had phones in our hands. And I was telling my girlfriend when we were out and down in the Keys, like there’s just not an opportunity to be bored anymore.

 And so you don’t notice the waves, you don’t notice the ocean, you don’t notice the osprey, you don’t notice the, right? But that is going to be I think extremely coveted in the future we’re headed toward. And I think all of us are perfectly positioned to take advantage of it.

[01:14:29] Brian Searl: So are you… if let’s say I have a question, I have one more question for you. If somebody were to drop a billion dollars into your hands tomorrow, would you build Westworld?

[01:14:41] Travis Chambers: Probably. It feels like you’re taking baby steps maybe towards that future based on what you just said.

 Yeah, right now I like the 40 to 60 unit projects. I think projects can get too big where you could risk losing the whole project. So I feel like there’s a certain level of intimacy that you can’t really accomplish at scale.

 You’ll probably seen people go from 50 units to 100 units and start to have problems. That’s what I’ve noticed with some of my friends that own projects outside of Zion National Park. But yeah, I think that the even bigger vision, Brian, when you talk about Westworld, is converting this at some point into long-term living.

 And we see that Disney is now doing long-term living developments. And you just think about how do our communities change when people aren’t working on a laptop all day? What do they do with their time?

 And old European cities and even Puerto Rican towns seem much more equipped for that future than American towns that are built around cars and very isolated. And you spend a lot of time alone and there’s no mixed zoning, so no one can have a business in your neighborhood, which is really weird.

 So I feel like you talk about this Westworld thing, I wonder if a Westworldification is going to happen everywhere. I wonder if this experientialization and this hospitality element that we’re involved in is going to just be everything, everywhere is going to be like that. Community driven, agricultural, agrarian driven as well.

[01:16:25] Brian Searl: I would sign up for that. And I’m the biggest AI geek probably in outdoor hospitality that exists, right? But I still like to disconnect. I still like to be immersed. I still like to… and I would love to get to a place where I know everybody in my community for a couple blocks, right?

 I don’t know… I guess I could theoretically do that now, but it’d be weird to just walk up to people’s doors and knock and be like, “Hey, I’m your neighbor from two streets over.” It feels weird, even though it shouldn’t be weird. So if you can do some part to build almost like a neighborhood that’s what you’re saying is almost themed the same way. Does that make… and that’s too maybe loose of a word, but that brings the same type of people together who want to experience the same thing and thus the community interaction is easier? Am I going down the right path?

[01:17:11] Zach Stoltenberg: Yeah, I think we’re starting to see some of that. Travis mentioned kind of the Disney communities and stuff. Not my focus with our company, but other divisions within LJA do a lot of these master plan communities where developers coming in to build 800, 2,000 home lots.

 And at a $100,000 lot price, you’ve got to sell more than just ground. You’re selling a lifestyle, they’re selling a brand. And so we can call it theming, we can call it immersion, we can call it branding, whatever you want.

 But we’re seeing those master plan communities with resort-style swimming pools and top-tier amenities and clubs that would rival a Four Seasons. And I think when you look especially amongst younger generations, I’ll say Gen Z especially, they’re really putting a huge emphasis on lifestyle.

 You figure most of your life is spent at work or at home. And when you’re at home, wouldn’t it be great if it felt like you were on vacation? So I think we’re starting to see that trend already.

 And I also think that that’s probably one of the things that is pushing that ratcheting up of guest expectations when it does come to outdoor hospitality and resort development. What people have at home is getting nicer and nicer. So we’ve really got to up the ante when it comes to creating a unique experience.

 And I think Travis, to your credit, you’re probably one of the best in the business at having accomplished that.

[01:18:47] Brian Searl: If living at home feels like vacation, does vacation exist in the future or do you just swap homes with someone else?

[01:18:57] Jeremy Johnson: I think it’s not so much does vacation exist, but it’s wanting a different experience. I think Travis, I remember you talking about this on the podcast with Alex and Matt, where it’s like you can be anywhere in 24 to 48 hours. So your life might feel like vacation.

 Like I live in Marquette, Michigan. I’m on the shores of Lake Superior. To me, every day is vacation. I get to look out, I live on the biggest freshwater lake in North America. I love my life.

 But that doesn’t mean that I don’t want a completely different experience. I might want to go to Utah and be in the desert or go to Santa Fe and be in the desert. I want that different perspective.

 And I think that’s where that perspective, being able to give somebody a new perspective, that’s where there’s a lot of value, I think.

[01:19:51] Travis Chambers: Yeah, I agree with that. I think that we as a species, we’re really obsessed with storytelling. And the storytellers generally run society. The Aristotles, the Shakespeares. Or if our life is playing infinite games, then who’s the game maker? Whose games are we playing?

 And you see how big the video game industry is exploding. It’s multiples and multiples of the film industry now. And I think what happens is when a species gets more wealthy, they start living more like aristocrats. So it almost becomes post-monetary where your exchange of value is your style and your personality and your experiences and your perspectives, just like Jeremy said, and your art.

 And so if we do survive this AI thing and it does bring a lot of abundance and prosperity, then it seems like that exchange will possibly become one of the most valuable currencies. It will be, right? It will be Jeremy walking out and looking at this lake because he doesn’t have to live in Milwaukee anymore to make a living.

 He can live anywhere he wants. And because of that, he’s this really interesting character and it just seems like that is possibly going to be where things go. It’ll be interesting to see.

[01:21:17] Jeremy Johnson: I’m curious, Joy, we haven’t talked about your property too much yet, but I’m guessing you’re on a dairy farm. Is that an experience in British Columbia that people are seeking because they want to get out of the city or what was the idea and inspiration behind that?

[01:21:34] Joy de Vos: I guess my inspiration comes from being a 4-H leader. I’ve been a 4-H leader for 20 years and in this time I’ve mentored over 200 children to learn more about dairy, learn more about agriculture, being able to be public speakers and leaders for tomorrow. And along the way, I’ve encountered people that couldn’t tell that a bull calf was actually not a goat.

[01:21:58] Brian Searl: That would be me.

[01:21:59] Joy de Vos: Yeah, and when I had 21-year-olds making that kind of comment when I did a petting zoo, I thought, oh my goodness, we’re so out of touch. And so I decided with my husband that we would do an educational experience for people. It first started off with just doing dairy tours and working on how we farm it with the riparian area.

 We are a working dairy farm, third generation, and we’re hoping that it’ll go on to the fourth generation. So along our discussions, we decided, let’s do a campground. That sounds like fun. And then we talked about doing a store. We’ll have a little store to service the campground.

 And then it became my husband moving his stuff out of his shop and me turning it into a cute little general store. So you feel like you’ve come back in time because it looks like the late 1800s and you can see the cows from inside the store and get a coffee. You can go feed the chickens, you can camp on the farm, you can do an actual dairy tour or you can do a milking dairy tour where you get to go in there and milk the cows.

 And if you’re lucky, maybe you get shit on. An experience! And there’s so many people out of touch with agriculture and in our area, we’re starting to see more and more people wanting to get back in touch with their roots.

 And we would like to offer that opportunity to people who live in the city. Maybe they don’t have a backyard, they can’t do a garden. Come and check out our property.

[01:23:19] Travis Chambers: Zach, have you guys seen that Netflix show called “This is a Gardening Show”?

[01:23:22] Zach Stoltenberg: No, I haven’t.

[01:23:24] Travis Chambers: Oh, it’s pretty cool. He makes like the whole point that the future of everything is agrarian. In that the more abundant we are, the more we will all go back to an agrarian society where we’re farming and that will be our identity and how we spend our time.

[01:23:40] Jeremy Johnson: I can’t help but think of, I don’t know if anybody’s familiar, but there’s a very luxury high-end development, I think it’s called CERES in Chattahoochee Hills, Georgia, just outside of Atlanta. And it is completely agricultural based and very food focused.

 They’re growing food, but then also cooking on site, and we’re talking million-dollar lots. It’s exactly, Travis, what you’re talking about, Joy, what you’re talking about. These people have everything they could ever want, but yet they’re going back to this from-the-earth movement, and there’s this massive price tag on it because they’re just outside of Atlanta.

[01:24:21] Zach Stoltenberg: I think another thing that we’ve been seeing here recently with this growth, this focus on health and wellness, especially amongst people that have got more money than they will probably spend in their lifetime, or even that their children can spend. Their focus shifts from material things into living the best life of the years that they have remaining. Feeling good, feeling you can do whatever you want, and that recentral focus on health, longevity, wellness, and a huge part of that is diet.

 So I think all of these experiences that we’re trying to create to attract that type of a customer base, it’s not just the theming and the immersion and all of that. In order to hit that authenticity feel that is driving outdoor, it’s got to be holistic. It’s got to be the food, learning about it, tending it, meeting the staff that are cooking it and growing it, and it’s got to come full circle with all those components.

[01:25:23] Brian Searl: Yeah, I agree with that. I’m always one of those people who’s trying to learn as much as they can. So when we were down in Key West, I was going to the farmers markets, learning about the pink shrimp and the lobsters and the stone crab and all the things they have down there. Then trying to figure out where can I get it from the markets and how can I cook it in my glamping accommodation that I was in.

 So I think that for sure, it’s not farming, but it’s the same from the sea. It’s figuring out how that all connects to each other, to the experience. We stayed at a couple glamping accommodations, I would call them glamping, that were basically cottages that this guy built on top of catamarans in Key West.

 They rent for something like $500 a night. I think they’re called Outpost 1 and 2 from a company called Mellow Ventures. There’s a couple competitors down there, but it’s very rare. He’s basically built these custom cottages that float on catamarans.

 They’re anchored in the middle of the harbor in Key West in four-foot crystal clear water. You go out there and there’s no air conditioning, you’re just out there in this cabin in the middle of the water. We stayed there for three nights and it was one of the most relaxing things I think I’ve done. Just being disconnected and being able to cook my fresh food from the market, learning about the shrimp and the fish and the types of stuff that’s swimming by me. I’m a buyer, I’m a believer in that.

 Maybe that’s your next idea, Travis. We go from Westworld to Waterworld.

[01:26:51] Travis Chambers: It’s funny, we…

[01:26:52] Brian Searl: But it’s got to be better than Waterworld, man. That’s a very low bar for a movie to set.

[01:26:58] Travis Chambers: It’s funny, we have been looking at barges and catamarans here in Puerto Rico to do that kind of experience.

[01:27:08] Brian Searl: Yeah, it’s one of the most unique things that I’ve ever seen and done. And he built it really well.

[01:27:14] Travis Chambers: It’s so funny, we were literally talking last week about doing a catamaran. I’m thinking, why don’t we just buy a barge and build a little village on the barge? This is cool, this is really inspiring.

[01:27:27] Jeremy Johnson: There’s a project, I think it’s just outside of Toledo. I’d have to look on the map, but it’s in the middle of nowhere Ohio and it’s on Lake Erie. This younger guy bought a commercial marina with 14 slips, and I think he gets an average of four or $500 a night because he turned it into this little micro resort where everything’s on the water.

 He’s got little food trucks that pull up to his marina, and it’s just this whole experience that you typically wouldn’t get in this post-industrial area that was nothing but iron ore shipping in the past. It’s cool that he was able to turn that around. I think we all talk about how land is becoming more and more a scarce commodity, but water even more so, especially nice fresh water or even nice sea water as well.

[01:28:25] Brian Searl: Joy, where do you see Foxtrot Dairy going? You said it was new, the campground side of it?

[01:28:30] Joy de Vos: Yeah, it took us a while to get the campground up and running because it’s my husband and I that are trying to forge ahead with it. We have limited capital to getting it started up, but I think we’ve done really well. We’re held at a capacity of 10 campsites because we’re on the agricultural land reserve, and so that means that we have to preserve it for farming as a main economy.

 The campground itself is really just there for the educational aspect of dairy farming. We have 10 campsites, two of them are full hookup service. We have a septic system, we have actual showers, not porta-potties. We have it planned to set up as a little village eventually as we gain the capital to invest into it.

 The hope is that people will set it as a journey destination for their families, that they’ll all come here and do their family reunions and see the cows going back and forth from the campground. You can see the dry cows going back and forth, you can see our horse, and our goats are within the campground. So it really is a little farm that we’re trying to set up there, and you’re right beside the farm.

 On the other side of the bushes is the farm, and you don’t actually hear the cows. It’s amazing what a bush can do. The store is open, people are able to come over and be on the main farmyard. We’re really just hoping that schools and people that are interested in learning about where their milk comes from, how we farm, why we farm, why are the decisions that we make made.

 They’re made because we have to work within our ability with our land, and within the nutrition of the animals, and with staying environmentally friendly. So we have a lot of hoops to jump through, and the agricultural land reserve is a special land that’s put aside for farming. I see us enjoying and meeting lots of people from around the country, maybe around other countries, to come and just really have a great experience.

 I think for us, seeing a child learn that milk comes from a cow, I’ve seen it. Kids are like, “Wow, that happens?” And they’re like, “That’s where my ice cream comes from?” Yes, that’s where your ice cream comes from.

[01:30:50] Brian Searl: The most important thing that comes from a cow, ice cream.

[01:30:53] Joy de Vos: Oh yeah, it is. That butter. When people come to our store, we have products from little mom-and-pop businesses. So really just trying to support that local community as much as possible, working together and showcasing healthy, nutritious products, thinking about what people need to live a happy, healthy life.

 I don’t know, I’m still learning. This is exciting and it’s nerve-wracking all at the same time, but I look forward to my plans.

[01:31:24] Brian Searl: If you ever stop learning, you’ll be bored, so I hope you keep learning. Is it just RV or do you have any intentions to add accommodations like cabins or glamping or anything out there?

[01:31:33] Joy de Vos: I do want to add glamping. I want to make a miniature village of our farm, but that again requires capital. I would like to make a replica of our actual farm within there and have themed cabins for the milk house, the calf barn, the shop, and with educational history pictures on the inside.

 I have the designs already, I just don’t have the capital to get it going. So in time, I plan to have all the sites hooked up and all with power, but we know power is expensive, so that’ll take a little bit of time. But when it’s all set up and done, it’ll be a really cute place that people will want to come to. Then I hope while they’re here, they see the wineries and the other dairy farms near us and just really get to know the agricultural footprint within our communities.

[01:32:21] Brian Searl: It is one of the hardest things, and I’ll just admit this from my perspective. It’s been one of the hardest things I’ve learned over the last few years, running my business, working 110 hours a week for 15 plus years, seven days a week, because I love what I do. It’s really been hard for me to immerse myself into the type of experience, to go to the places.

 I take a vacation, but I realized two years ago that I was walking along a beach, I think it was actually in Vancouver Island. I realized I’m walking along this beach and I’m thinking about business. I’m not appreciating that I’m on a beach, I’m not appreciating the ocean is right here, appreciating there’s a time to disconnect.

 So I’ve tried to reframe that thinking, but it’s hard in the modern world for a lot of people to get to that place with all the distractions that we have and opportunities to not be bored. Is that just me or is that sentiment out there with more of you?

[01:33:08] Joy de Vos: I find that all the time.

[01:33:15] Jeremy Johnson: I don’t think it’s just you. I will say as somebody who lives in the upper Midwest, I think that’s the thing I appreciate the most about seasons. The seasons make you slow down, whether it’s winter or spring or fall.

 We got over 300 inches of snow this year where I live in Ishpeming. When you have that kind of snow, you can’t just go out the door and go to wherever you’re going. You have to slow down, you have to move the snow.

 At least for me, it makes me think differently. Instead of just rushing out the door and hopping in my car, I think, you know what, it might be easier and more fun if I skied down to the coffee shop. That’s what I did multiple times this winter.

 That makes life a little bit more fun to have that disconnect and get out of that regular pattern of thinking about business or the most efficient or the biggest ROI you can get on a project.

[01:34:11] Brian Searl: That’s why I really like the houseboats. We had to take a boat out there from the marina, a 10, 15-minute ride out from the boatyard, and we couldn’t leave. We could call somebody if we wanted to and pay for a boat, but we were in the middle of the water.

 We weren’t going anywhere even if I wanted to. So we had to go grocery shopping, we had to bring our provisions, we had ice coolers, we didn’t have a full refrigerator. We had to think and plan and clearly disconnect and understand what we needed, and it was great.

[01:34:39] Jeremy Johnson: One of my favorite places is actually in the Upper Peninsula, about 50 minutes away from where I live. It’s called the Huron Mountain Club. When you go up that club road and you pass through the gates, you’ve got no service, you’re completely disconnected.

 The closest store to get gas, food, anything, water, is probably 45 minutes down the road, and it’s a dirt road. It brings on a little bit of anxiety because you’re wondering, did I forget something? But then as you settle in, you realize it doesn’t matter.

 You might think, oh shoot, I forgot my phone charger, and you realize, you know what, I’m here, who cares? That feeling is invaluable to have. 

 On that same note, one of the future projects I’m working on is on the shores of Lake Superior, and one of the components of it is a private beach that you can only access by walking through a wetland. We’re going to be building a raised boardwalk to get to that wetland and it’s probably about a thousand feet of boardwalk, but it’s a 10, 15 minute walk and it’s like you’re walking through pretty deep thick wetland and you might get bit by a mosquito.

 Like there might, you might get hit in the face with a branch. That’s fine. There’s an element of uncomfortableness to it, but then you get to that beach and I’m sure Travis, it’s probably like you walk through the jungle to get to the waterfalls.

 Like you get to that beach and everything just changes. You’re like, this was worth it. I call it type two fun. Walking to that waterfall might not have been fun, but then you get there, you see how beautiful it is and you’re like, it was all worth it. None of it matters now.

[01:36:23] Brian Searl: I just, you need to give me a bug suit, man, because I’m the one guy in the world where every mosquito will find me from 10 miles away, man. They all like me. But I would agree with you.

 Yeah, forgetting the phone charger, there are certain things that you don’t want to forget. We got out to the boat and realized we forgot the tequila and the cocktail mix in the car, so we had to go back. 10 minute ride.

[01:36:42] Jeremy Johnson: Brian, I’ve got to jump early today, but I appreciate being on and getting to talk with all of you and good luck for the last 15 minutes here.

[01:36:49] Brian Searl: Thanks, Jeremy. Appreciate you being here.

[01:36:51] Jeremy Johnson: Bye guys.

[01:36:55] Brian Searl: So how do we keep moving this conversation forward in outdoor hospitality? How do we get more people into the way of thinking that… and we’ve talked about experiential hospitality for a couple years, right? Loosely. Never anything probably as in-depth as Travis being on the show, right, with experiences like that. But does the outdoor hospitality industry need to reframe some of the thinking or are we headed in the right direction already or what do you think, Zach? You work with a lot of these businesses.

[01:37:22] Zach Stoltenberg: I don’t know that I would say reframe. One of the things I love about this industry is that there’s room for everyone. And I don’t know that there’s any one right way or wrong way of doing it. And that’s probably a perspective for me that’s changed a lot over the years.

 Early on in doing these, the majority of the folks we were working with had a lot of capital behind them. There was a lot of money available and people were doing that. But seeing what Joy and her husband are doing, saying, “Hey, we’re going to do this a little bit at a time. We’re going to be restricted by capital. We’re going to start small and make this work.”

 I see a lot of people that have done that and done so very successfully. And maybe their first one was that way, then it started to take off and getting a loan or some investment to expand or move to their second or third site, that became a lot easier.

 But I think Travis, you mentioned Ben Wolff earlier. I think we’re seeing a lot of innovators in this space that are coming in that are figuring out what works for them. You don’t have to spend two grand a month with Google and Meta for ads for marketing for your place, right?

 These guys have worked with influencers, they’ve built social media campaigns, millions of followers, and they’re doing only direct booking. Where a lot of other campgrounds would say, “Oh gosh, we get so much off of our Facebook ads. It’s the most successful marketing we do.”

 So I don’t know. I guess it’s a roundabout way of saying I don’t know what the answer is to that. Like where do we go from here? I think certainly there’s something to be learned for people who are doing it, have tried something new and are really successful with it.

 And Travis, I’m sure you’re starting to see too, you captured this sort of lightning in a bottle with your first site, you built a massive online following. I’m anxious to see, does that carry over into a second site, a third site? Does that carry over into a site out of the country? And then how does that shape your journey of what’s next? Any thoughts on that?

[01:39:24] Travis Chambers: Yeah, I think it just comes down to a good story. Like Joy is a story, right? She’s been doing the farming club for 20 years. This is her life, right? This is her lifestyle.

 And there’s something romantic about entering someone else’s lifestyle. It’s a cultural experience. And so it really, it’s just that’s what culture is. And I think in the United States, cultures are very disjointed.

 And I think what we’re talking about exists in a lot of deep cultures in the world already. Morocco is a hospitality zone. There’s just this richness, there’s a certain type of food, there’s a certain type of tradition, there’s a certain type of clothing. When you go to Morocco, you are in a movie. You really are.

 And so you go to Joy’s place, you’re in this society, you’re in this community, you’re in this way of life. I think that’s what people want. I think people want as many experiences as they can have. And it just naturally seems to be what people spend their time and money on.

 And it’s pretty crazy. This is a really strange concept, but if you are a coal miner and all you do your whole life is mine coal and don’t have any other experiences, time is going to be very compressed. But the more experiences you have, it’s like the more time you create because you’re experiencing new things.

 They’ve done studies on this. It really sounds wild, but you’ve lived half of your life by the time you’re 20 because the way we perceive time, because you generally are having less new experiences. You’re in a routine. And so if you want to live a longer life, you go have more experiences. Unless you just really love what you have.

 I think that’s what people want. Obviously if people are stuck in survival mode, like the majority of people on earth are still in a survival situation. I have to do this job so that I can eat, so I can have a shelter over my head. So really the stuff we’re talking about is what do you do when that’s not the case anymore?

 What happens when you’re not in a survival mode? How do you spend your time? Where do you go? And we know that people spend it on travel. They spend a lot of it on travel.

 And we see it too, a lot of people buy stuff, right? But once they reach a certain level of abundance, they don’t buy as much stuff. That’s what happened with me. I sold my company, bought a bunch of really stupid things I didn’t need. It didn’t make me happy.

 So then I got rid of them and just went right back to the adventure part of it. So I think the other thing that’s happening is the tourism market is getting younger. So a majority of tourism was over 60 years old for most of our era because they’re the ones that have disposable time and income.

 But I just think that there’s just more money going around. The upper middle class has doubled or tripled in the last 20 years and people are getting a lot more mobility, and they’re not spending as much money on where they live. They’re spending their money on going places and they have the flexibility to do that, which is not something that has really been around for a long time.

[01:42:48] Brian Searl: Yeah, I think my answer to that question, and I don’t know if I have the answer like you do, Zach, but I think my answer is to gently nudge people toward creating their own whatever unique experience is in their head, right? For Travis, that’s what he’s building. For Ben Wolff, that’s something different. For the clients that you have, Zach, that’s something different.

 I think there’s been perhaps a majority, and I’m not saying that’s 60% or whatever, right, but a majority of people who are developing in outdoor hospitality that have just said, “Look, here’s something that works. Let me do that also.” Instead of, “Look, here’s something that works. Let me tweak that to make it work for me or my audience or my niche or what I want to accomplish.”

 Let me add an RV park or glamping to a dairy farm instead of just building an RV park, if that makes sense. So I think that’s where we need to maybe encourage people to go.

 And I think there’s significantly, there are people that are going there, like Travis and Ben and some of your clients, Zach, and other people that we’ve had on this show. I think those voices would be well served for our industry to be more visible at some of the industry conferences that we have.

[01:43:58] Travis Chambers: Yeah, I always bring it back to storytelling. How do you make your property not a commodity? Like Joy’s property is not a commodity at all.

 You’re going to milk cows, you’re going to do things that you can’t just walk into someone’s dairy and milk their cow. You can’t do that anywhere in society. It’s like you would get shot. You might get in trouble, but you could.

[01:44:19] Brian Searl: You’re just going to walk in here and just milk my cow without even… what?

[01:44:24] Travis Chambers: The disrespect! So that’s the problem is too many people say, “I’m going to do a glamping project.” What is… guys, I almost feel like you could finish my sentence. What is the first thing they say? “Oh, I’m going to do domes.” It’s always the same thing.

 I always come to the same conclusion. And I would recommend to people, go figure out what your story is. Go figure out what your unique world is that you want people to enter because domes is not enough.

 It’s enough if you’re right next to a national park, then it is enough. But do you really want to just add another commodity to the world? I love Rick Rubin. He’s my favorite music producer.

 He always says there’s a difference between art and commerce. Commerce is what you make what you think people want. Art is you make what you love. And that’s what I’ve tried to do with my projects.

 What do I love deeply, love? And it’s like if you’re going to build a project like this and you don’t know what you love, then you got to go find out. You got to go find out.

[01:45:29] Brian Searl: What’s your unique story that you want to tell in the world?

 All right, last few minutes. Travis, do you have any questions for Joy or Zachary? We kind of let the guests take over, so do you have a question you want to ask either one of those two?

[01:45:43] Travis Chambers: Yeah, Joy, my question for you is I’d love to know more about how you… how do you do this whole guest experience? Is it like a choose your own adventure thing? Is there a schedule?

[01:45:59] Joy de Vos: It’s a choose your own adventure thing and we schedule based on demand. We could have tour times, but what we’ve decided to do is work with when they’re actually being demanded so that we can be prepared with the staff to take people through the tour. We have to do biosecurity.

 We have to be prepared that people carry disease, animals have disease, and we have to make sure that both work together. So we have to make sure people’s hands are sanitized. If you’re doing the milking dairy tour, we’ll be providing you with the gumboots and the overalls so that you don’t have to worry about staining your lovely camping outfit.

 But mainly people, we want them to come and camp and just enjoy the animals that are available all the time and kick back and relax and forget about real life because real life is really hard. And then when you want to do a dairy tour, we’ll try to do them in the morning and answer the questions as best as we can.

 And we would target our dairy tours based on who our client is at that moment. If they’re young children, we keep it simple. If they’re older and they’re college students and they’re trying to learn something about agriculture, then we’ll be more in depth.

 If it’s the general person, just an understanding of how we work with our environment to be good stewards of the land and how we look after our animals. We love our girls. They all sleep on waterbeds in case anybody’s wondering. And they’re very happy.

 And we’ll develop as we’re going along because obviously I’ve only been doing this for the last 12 months or 14 months with opening up the store and working towards this plan. And still I don’t even know what to put in my brochures. I have a brochure, but maybe my ideas will be different in six months from now.

 And our campground can host tents and RVs. And right now we only have two full hookups. The rest are dry until we eventually get to our end goal.

[01:48:01] Travis Chambers: That’s really cool. My one of my favorite experiences, my grandpa had a dairy farm. My dad grew up on a dairy farm and I used to go there as a kid, climb around the barn, find old… I’d find his old mail and checks to the IRS and stuff from the 50s. It was so much fun. Like it was this… and it’s like how many people really get that experience? Zachary, what’s your favorite thing that you’ve designed so far?

[01:48:27] Zach Stoltenberg: I get this question a lot and I think the best answer I can say is my favorite thing is whatever I’m working on right now. Which the current project, it’s also in Utah. I can share a little bit about it, but I’ll say this is the first time instead of building or erecting a unit, we are excavating the units out of rock.

 So that’s been very unique, very different. Some challenges with it. Everybody on my team has just poured themselves into it and I think when it finally comes to fruition, it’s going to be absolutely incredible. But I think yeah, my best answer would be whatever I’m working on right now.

 Because I think when you put a piece of yourself into what you’re designing, when you get passionate about it, when you get turned on, you get your team excited about it, when your client is 100% into it, that’s when we get our best result. That’s when we create something that’s really incredible.

 And those are the properties that it might be a year or two later that they’re finally open and hosting guests and all those things that we talked about, all those ideas, those conversations, even some of the crazy hairball stuff that we came up with that’s like, I don’t know if it’ll work or not, but we’ll give it a shot. And then that’s the thing that got the million views on Instagram.

 And so that’s the way we work. But yeah, for me it’s always whatever we’re doing right now. That’s what I’m passionate about.

[01:49:57] Travis Chambers: Was it hard to get permits? Was it hard to engineer building into rock?

[01:50:03] Zach Stoltenberg: It’s been interesting. The permit side not so much. The county and the state have been reasonable to work with. But some of the testing, the geotech, the borings, working with a really knowledgeable crew that’s used to doing drilling and blasting and some of those things. We had big questions and they were like, “Yeah, we do this all the time.”

 And so I would say the most difficult thing was us, our education and learning what is possible and then listening to those trades and those contractors and saying, “Yeah, we can do that.” And we sent him a few crazy things and he’s like, “I’ve never done that before, but I think I can do it.”

 And there’s been some things that he pushed back a little bit. “If you want a column there, leave it at least six or eight feet wide. Don’t give me a two foot column, that’s going to crack and break on me.” So it’s been very interesting, very educational, but it’s been a ton of fun. And I’ve got it… we’re working on it with a client who is one of the most passionate people that I think I’ve ever worked for before.

[01:51:03] Brian Searl: We need to get you your own TV show, Zach. Do you remember that TV show with the people who went around and built the crazy fish tanks? I can’t remember what it’s called.

[01:51:11] Zach Stoltenberg: I don’t need a show, but…

[01:51:12] Brian Searl: Tanked, yeah. 

[01:51:13] Zach Stoltenberg: I would love to do… maybe Netflix needs to do a pilot series on building experiential stays and go out and follow some of these crews with folks like what Travis is doing out there to see that sort of behind the scenes of what’s going on. I think there’s three or four I think they could go shoot right now.

[01:51:31] Brian Searl: It would be interesting for sure. We’re a couple minutes over. Joy, do you have a last question for Zach or Travis before we go?

[01:51:41] Joy de Vos: I can’t think of anything at this moment. Sorry.

[01:51:44] Brian Searl: No, that’s perfectly fine. All right, final thoughts. Joy, any final thoughts? And then where can they find out more about Foxtrot Dairy?

[01:51:51] Joy de Vos: We’re foxtrotdairy.ca and we have .com, but .com is sleeping. I made sure to buy both panhandles to make sure that they’re mine. Just that we provide our own beef when we’re… when you’re at our farm. And we have our own lamb and pork and we’ve brought in some select agricultural products from different vendors and just trying to provide what you would need when you come here. Come and visit us and pet a goat. Say hi to the chickens, say hi to the cows, say hi to me. I’ll tell you a lot.

[01:52:24] Brian Searl: Thank you, Joy, for being here. I appreciate it. I’m looking forward to seeing your success. Zach, any final thoughts or where can they learn more about LJA?

[01:52:32] Zach Stoltenberg: You can reach out to me on LinkedIn or Instagram. Like I always said, never charged anybody for a phone call. We’d love to talk to people. Maybe we can help you, maybe we can’t. But my email is just zstoltenberg@lja.com.

 And again, most of our advertising, I like to say, is not us. It’s through the clients, through the properties we’ve worked with. I think they’re our best testament. We like kind of being the folks in the background that help people that are doing wonderful things.

 And Joy, I want to design mini barns for you. I want little experiential stay units. I want them to be able to sit in bed and look up and see the cows at the foot of the bed.

 I want the kids to be able to sleep up in the hayloft for the evening. I think we could do some really fun stuff. And I grew up on a cattle ranch, so not that far detracted from it. I was a 4-H kid too.

[01:53:27] Joy de Vos: Yeah, 4-H is such a valuable program. If all of our children were in it, we would have a bit of a different society today. Please reach out to me.

[01:53:36] Zach Stoltenberg: I will.

[01:53:37] Brian Searl: Last but not least, Travis, any final thoughts and where can they find out more about the projects you have going on?

[01:53:42] Travis Chambers: Yeah, I’m on Instagram, travis_chambers. And then you can check out Outpost X on Instagram or Outpost X Jungle for the island project.

[01:53:51] Brian Searl: All right, thank you guys for being here. I appreciate it. Join us for another episode of MC Fireside Chats. If you’re not sick and tired of hearing from me, I will have another live podcast in about 45 minutes or so with Scott Bahr, who we’re going to talk about data research, AI, tech, all that kind of stuff.

 So join us there. If not, we’ll see you next week for another episode of MC Fireside Chats. Thanks guys. Take care.

[01:54:09] Travis Chambers: Thanks guys.

[01:54:10] Zach Stoltenberg: Thanks everybody.

[01:54:12] Joy de Vos: Thank you.