MC Fireside Chats – April 1st, 2026

[00:00:45] Brian Searl: Episode of MC fireside chats we’re the only show on the planet where the host cannot figure out how to play the intro correctly. Like I tried to test this thing. I don’t know if it’s still stuttering for you guys. I tested it on my end, it plays flawlessly before the show, but when you hit go live and then press it, it stutters. Is it stutter for you guys still?

[00:01:02] Phil Ingrassia: A little bit.

[00:01:04] Brian Searl: A little bit? Yeah, I can’t figure it out. Anyway, that’s just my technical limitations. That’s my ceiling apparently, is figuring out show intros.

Welcome everybody to our first week episode for MC fireside chats data trends insights show we’ve got Phil Ingrassia here from RVDA we got Scott Bahr from Cairn Consulting and Simon Neal from Camp Map.

Gentlemen, should we introduce ourselves? Everybody knows who you guys are anyway, nobody else who I am, but Phil introduce yourself. Tell them how important you are. In case they…

[00:01:31] Phil Ingrassia: Hi, I’m Phil Ingrassia, I’m president of the RV Dealers Association. We represent US RV dealers, motor home and travel trailer dealers across the country.

[00:01:42] Brian Searl: Awesome. Thanks for being here Phil. Simon, you want to go next? It’s Simon’s happy birthday like a week ago. Happy birthday, Simon. week and a half ago.

[00:01:49] Simon Neal: Yeah. Well past now but thanks. And you too. Yeah I’m Simon the founder and CEO of Camp Map. We help outdoor hospitality businesses improve marketing and guest experience with premium digital site maps that integrate with your website booking and app.

[00:02:07] Brian Searl: Thanks for being here Simon. Last but not least Scott.

[00:02:10] Scott Bahr: Scott Bahr, Cairn Consulting Group. We’re in market research and analysis doing the industry work across outdoor hospitality, camping, RVing, and so on. So great to be here.

[00:02:23] Brian Searl: Awesome. Yeah, we’re missing a couple people today. Raf’s flying back from Ohio connect. We got a special guest who was supposed to be on the show who just stopped answering Sharah’s emails after he committed so I don’t know what happened to him. But anyway.

So what do we got gentlemen? like lots of data lots of trends it’s April we’re trying to ramp up here toward hopefully what will be a nice busy summer camping season. Where do you guys want to start? Anything interesting?

[00:02:45] Phil Ingrassia: We could start with some good news that I was surprised to see today in the Wall Street Journal and that was March consumer sentiment in the US from the conference board was unchanged from February. And that was a surprise to a lot of folks. And why do we…

[00:02:59] Brian Searl: Can it can it go lower Phil? I know we’re all good news I don’t want to ruin your good news.

[00:03:03] Phil Ingrassia: Yeah. I’m just saying it didn’t fall off the table. didn’t get worse.

[00:03:06] Brian Searl: Okay. Yep. Which is great considering the fact that we now have a war and higher gas prices and all that. So I yeah I agree with you that’s a positive.

[00:03:13] Phil Ingrassia: Right. All these external things haven’t really come home to roost as far as consumer sentiment taking a dive. And of course the RV industry along with a lot of outdoor recreation equipment people look very closely at consumer sentiment because of everything that’s baked into it, right? If people don’t feel like the they can make purchases they don’t do it.

And then another thing is in the US I think we continue to look at increased tax returns, tax refunds. They’re supposed to be higher this year and if the future pretends the past, that should help out a lot of times people will spend that on discretionary purchases which of course RVs marine vacations are a part of that.

So while there’s a lot of external factors, I’m not saying that it’s all tail winds. There are a few, I guess flour, since it’s spring, flowers poking up through the snow, and we’ll see how it goes.

[00:04:16] Brian Searl: I’m all for finding flowers Phil. I know I may seem negative sometimes on the show, but like Scott and I have been talking for weeks on outwired about how like Scott is in favor of war and it’s great for gas prices being high turns out more people go camping when gas prices are high. So we’re we like COVID, we like war, we like yeah all kinds of positive things are happening Scott.

[00:04:38] Scott Bahr: Just yesterday I did a a little webinar for the campground owners in New York and I I introduced the whole webinar with I’m gonna say some things that hopefully aren’t gonna come off sounding really bad but sometimes in a down economy it’s good for us. Yeah. It’s and I said the positive side and here’s my positive spin on it.

And there’s a really good reason for that and I do believe it is because the outdoors is therapeutic. People love it. It’s a it’s the escape. They need to reduce stress. What better way to travel than going somewhere and hop in your RV or your car or whatever and go there and don’t go through airports. Don’t do that.

[00:05:19] Brian Searl: Especially not right now. Yeah, not right now.

[00:05:22] Scott Bahr: Historically we see for one thing I looked at a while like last year I think it was. I looked at historical visits to the National Parks and I did overlays of different major events that happened whether it was 9/11 recessions stuff like that, the Iraq war previously. And National Park visitation increases as a response to every single one of them.

An average of something like 2 million additional guests go to the National Parks every year ba- on average based on these types of negative events. It’s real. It’s a real phenomenon and it’s again one of those things that you just you know you don’t want to say hey bad news is good news but also we I do think there’s a good positioning for our industry in there to talk to people about the benefits, reducing stress and so on.

[00:06:17] Brian Searl: Yeah it’s we talked about this right like we’ve talked about not just the gas prices but the fact that camping isn’t affordable alternative. I’m asking AI a question there by the way I wasn’t ignoring anybody.

And gas prices help us the ability to want to stay closer to home helps us everybody like you said I think nobody disputes that the outdoors is a great escape obviously nobody wants to be in airports right now unless you have clear and pre check and then you still nobody ever really wants to be in an airport every do they for as little time as possible. So I think these all tend to hopefully offset some of the negativity that we thought might be earlier in the year. Scott are you seeing any data for that or?

[00:06:53] Scott Bahr: Yeah we are. We do. We’re on net people are much more likely to camp and specifically among RVers they are more likely to take an RV trip when this stuff happens. It’s really you honestly you only have a small percentage of people who don’t travel or travel more whether it’s to camp or RV specifically based on this type of stuff.

So it’s real it’s a real thing and I did some research early last week just with a handful of RVers asking them the question. It wasn’t a survey it was just it was more like an interview about their response to the gas price issue. And of the almost 30 RVers that we interviewed four said that they were going to just RV a little bit less and stay closer to home.

The remainder said that they would continue to take their trips the overwhelming answer was I’m not going to let an extra dollar a gallon prevent me from taking my RV trips.

[00:07:57] Brian Searl: I have an interesting question for you and I know you said this wasn’t a survey so maybe you don’t have this data maybe you do. Do you have an idea of what type of rig they were that they have?

[00:08:06] Scott Bahr: Oh in this it was a mix. It tended to lean into bigger rigs though. This was more class A’s C’s and fifth wheels large towables. But and they most many of them would say if it’s if you can afford to buy one of these you can afford to put the fuel in it.

[00:08:22] Brian Searl: Well that’s what I was about to ask you right like we talk a lot about maybe on our show outwired about this K shaped economy right and how the middle class is disappearing. It does it then stand to reason that the people who have those more expensive rigs would still continue to travel more as your not survey but brief responses indicate and I think that we feel as an overall industry.

But then over the last few years as Phil has said on the show multiple times we’ve had a divergence from maybe as many of the class A’s being sold with a divergence toward more of the smaller trailers which are more affordable so are those people who are now arguably maybe on the road more than they were a few years ago with more of these units more impacted by gas prices than the bigger units are?

[00:09:03] Scott Bahr: I would say and Phil could probably weigh in on this as well that those a lot of those smaller units they’re not as heavy they don’t impact the gas mileage nearly as much as the big ones do.

[00:09:13] Brian Searl: Sure. Yeah, it’s still some though you have to tow them. So I’m just I’m not saying that it’s the unit that’s the issue I’m saying it’s the person and the price sensitivity of that person given the unit that they were able to purchase.

[00:09:24] Scott Bahr: Yeah correct and those the people even if they are from a lower income bracket they are they’re still gonna take some trips they’re still gonna take road trips they’ll just be shorter. They’re I’m convinced that some people aren’t gonna let their RVs sit in their yards or in storage this year.

If they I think if they own them they’re gonna take them out. Again maybe not as much maybe not as far but they’re still gonna take them out.

[00:09:53] Brian Searl: Okay. What do you think Phil? Anything to add clarity to this?

[00:09:54] Phil Ingrassia: Well I think that the change in motor home mix has been going on pre gas price issues. You’ve seen van type B vans overtake class A’s over the last five years. So it gets more down I think to how people are using the units.

The there’s certainly the core big motor home market that is there and remains there but with the van life people and just the diversity of use that we’re seeing and the different ways people are camping, the dispersed camping trend we’re seeing and glamping and different ways people are camping.

There’s just more choices out there and I think we have kind of a wider base. Certainly I think the class A motor home market is has a core base of users but the motor home market has definitely shifted and I don’t know that you can hang it on gas prices.

[00:10:43] Brian Searl: And I’m not trying to I’m just saying like does the ability for you to have enough money to purchase a class A versus and some of it is a want I just want to downsize right. But there’s an argument probably to be made economically that if you’re purchasing a smaller unit you may not have a budget for a bigger unit in some cases not all cases. So I don’t think I’m hanging it on gas prices saying that now that you own that unit does your willingness to spend more on gas prices that’s what I mean.

[00:11:07] Phil Ingrassia: Right the affordability of of the unit overall is certainly…

[00:11:12] Brian Searl: Does that correlate to your affordability and willingness to continue to pay higher gas prices is what I’m saying. And I have no data that says it does or isn’t I just thought it was an interesting question.

Simon what do you see in Europe because I know they don’t obviously have these big units over there. Do you have is there any data or information that you have on how gas prices may or may not impact summer travel in Europe?

[00:11:37] Simon Neal: No direct data but I think coming back to the war issue it’s not just the gas prices it’s a mixed thing and for us particularly being sort of eastern central Europe a lot closer to the issues.

If you look at somewhere like Cyprus which is a huge tourist destination from Europe I think they have 3 million tourists a year go to Cyprus majority from Europe majority from Germany UK Poland all big camping countries. So if they’re suddenly not going to Cyprus for a holiday this summer where are they going to go?

[00:12:09] Brian Searl: And for clarity for the American audience this is the my limited knowledge this is the country that the UK sent the or France sent the warship to defend right because they were being hit by some drones from Iran.

[00:12:22] Simon Neal: Yeah so there’s a big UK air base on Cyprus that’s used by the UK and US as well. So that was an easy close target and took a small hit. So yeah tourists will be like do I want to go there for my holiday and watch out for drones so obviously not so there’s 3 million people potentially looking for another holiday.

And yeah the alternative is stay home then what’s the options for staying home in Europe is a different destination or try something new try camping try outdoor resort style. So I think there’s definitely a push that’s going to happen from people who typically do that type of holiday looking for an alternative.

And it’s not just Cyprus it’s also Dubai that’s a big destination as well for Europe. So that might overcome the increasing gas prices it is happened it’s here people are complaining it’s daily lives and again for the Europeans it’s a big one time summer holiday you’re gonna drive your car six to eight hours to your destination and then back again. So it will impact the trip but it shouldn’t be disastrous that it’s gonna push somebody to make a different choice because of the gas price.

[00:13:31] Brian Searl: So you’re on the same side as Scott generally speaking like most of Europe is happy there’s a war going on because they get increased tourism.

[00:13:38] Simon Neal: Yeah. I wouldn’t put it like that but I think that could be the positive result of it.

[00:13:45] Brian Searl: Yeah I mean again we’ll always look at positive things right we always want people to experience the resorts and try new things and again we have so much to offer in the outdoor hospitality industry that I think so many people don’t realize we have to offer.

What else you guys got that you guys want to talk about this maybe more happy than war. How do we see the summer continuing to go over generally overall. Are we do we see any early reservation trends anything that’s looking positive or?

[00:14:12] Scott Bahr: From my perspective I feel a little bit like we’re in a bit of a holding pattern.

[00:14:18] Brian Searl: Okay. Is that normal though because of the booking window just shortening year over year anyway?

[00:14:22] Scott Bahr: It’s it has it’s been shortening we’re I think we’re continuing to see that people are going to take a wait and see approach they I’m not hearing about people canceling plans though.

[00:14:35] Brian Searl: I haven’t heard that either but also is that a function of just the booking window is so short there haven’t been a bunch of reservations on the books yet.

[00:14:42] Scott Bahr: That’s quite possible but if they haven’t canceled yet they’re still in play it’s like remember in Dumb and Dumber? There’s a chance.

[00:14:48] Brian Searl: Yeah cause you and I have talked about that before people wait and wait and wait and maybe they’re less likely to take the trip but some for sure still do. So if they’re not on the books and yeah like again we want them to.

How do we alright let’s take it let’s take it from this approach then and maybe I’m sorry if I cut you off finish your sentence if I did. How do we take it from this approach if somebody has not canceled yet and also is not on the books yet but maybe is on the fence in the uncertain area for whatever pick a reason right. How do we as a campground owner who are watching this podcast campground RV park owner people in the outdoor hospitality space whatever how do we encourage them to come what is the messaging that we send to them.

[00:15:29] Scott Bahr: I think the messaging is all about how the experience is gonna be it’s gonna be relaxing it’s gonna be a good getaway you’re gonna feel better after this you’re gonna it’s escapism all those things that we talk about all the time it’s it’s the core message of what we should be telling people anyway about…

[00:15:48] Brian Searl: But we don’t often in the industry some most of them are just RV park near Austin whatever else right there’s no there is subtle messaging with photos but there’s not that direct implicit marketing message that maybe needs to be communicated more.

[00:16:02] Scott Bahr: Absolutely. I feel like it’s that people will do it and you might have to dangle the carrot out there a little bit and you’ll find some promotions without giving it all away to get people to maybe commit a little earlier to get them to to pique their interest so that if nothing else you’re there at that decision nexus when they’re ready that you’re there you’re top of mind because again if they are shortening the booking window if they are waiting you want to be top of mind when they’re actually prepared you don’t want them to be getting on Airbnb or something else to make their plans you want to to be that that presence in their mind and you may have to work it a little bit you may have to work the individuals by multiple messages multiple layers of messaging.

[00:16:54] Brian Searl: It’s actually a good thought like you know I don’t talk about my own products here very often but like we release that booking intelligence product that you’ve seen Scott that tracks all the behavior on the booking engines for people.

And one of the things that you’re as you were talking about I was thinking of was you’re right like if the booking window is shortening meaning people stay on look at the cart but don’t check out right or don’t buy or even if they don’t get to the point maybe your booking window isn’t actually shortening but the research window is maybe expanding or staying the same. So people are looking at the parks they’re browsing they’re looking at prices they’re checking out site types they’re thinking about camping but they’re not booking and pulling the trigger yet.

Then that is another reason to like not only touch base on an abandoned cart perspective it touch base on a you’re thinking of me now but maybe in two weeks you’re researching a different campground or an Airbnb or something else how do I make sure that I stay top of mind even if I can’t recover your abandoned cart right now but I know that you were looking at me. And so when you’re ready to book I don’t want you to forget about me whether that’s two weeks four weeks two months whatever.

So that’s an interesting maybe thought process that I don’t think I’ve considered.

[00:18:00] Scott Bahr: I think it’s the same for RVs too Phil. I’m sure the sales people have people in the pipeline but that person who maybe was a definite no today maybe as things loosen up a little bit as time goes on they may soften up a bit too.

[00:18:13] Phil Ingrassia: Right I’m sure it’s very similar to the empty cart situation just because they bounced once doesn’t mean they’re going to bounce a second or third or fourth or fifth time you got to as long as they don’t opt out you have to you should keep on them because we know that buying process for an RV can be a year or more.

Just because they didn’t a situation may change everything from a job situation health issues we see it all with RVs and barriers to why they didn’t buy and we have the consumer research that shows that. You gotta until they opt out you need to keep them in your database and keep them keep in communication with them with what they’re comfortable with the level they’re comfortable at.

[00:18:57] Brian Searl: Because there’s so many different reasons right that they may have said no it might not have just been the large purchase it could have been anything happening in their life. What this is fascinating to me I have a family member my girlfriend’s cousin is in real estate he’s a big huge real estate broker over in BC and I had asked him I think we were down at his house like maybe a month and a half two months ago and I was talking to him about maybe the downturn in the market and how it was affecting people buying houses.

He said a downturn in the market never affects real estate because people buy for different reasons they may want to upgrade and they may put off push off the upgrade but they might get divorced and need to move into another house or they might right they might have a family member who needs to move in with them and get into another house. So there’s all kinds of reasons people are changing houses not just to buy just like they would change the RV that they have for the same reason.

So it’s interesting to think about that from a different lens that maybe from the macro level we can say economy bad economy good but from a micro level as Scott likes to point out there’s all kinds of different reasons that maybe just a small tweak in messaging might change your mind.

[00:19:56] Phil Ingrassia: The cost issue is always one of the top two to three barriers right cost. Yeah. But the others are change in family situation and health. It’s amazing it comes out all the time that something happens within the family situation that that they step back from the purchase decision because of that.

And so again I think to it isn’t a car where you need to get to work or it’s off lease or whatever that purchase decision is you have a big repair bill staring in your face. It isn’t like that with RVs most of the time so that you’ve got to have this kind of longer runway for the path to purchase.

[00:20:38] Brian Searl: How are the how are the dealers responding to this we talk a lot about the consumers right but your RVDA how are the dealers responding to increasing price pressures on them?

[00:20:48] Phil Ingrassia: I think that they’re they’re working with the manufacturers and I think earlier this month we saw Thor and Winnebago’s quarterly statements. And to their credit Thor and Winnebago both said that dealers are being cautious on restocking inventory and that the manufacturers are going to balance their production with retail demand.

So that is for the long term health of the RV business that’s good because you don’t want to have ’em shoving stuff down the the supply chain that isn’t going to get sold and then has to be discounted later on creating a lot of problems and a lot of margin pressures for both dealers and manufacturers.

There’s another side of that coin too saying well if they’re not producing what if things get better there’ll be a there’ll be a shortage of RVs.

[00:21:46] Brian Searl: Yep. Like we saw quickly during COVID.

[00:21:48] Phil Ingrassia: We saw during COVID right. So I understand that but I do think that I believe that Bob Martin at Thor Industries and Mike Happe at Winnebago who are long term leaders of those companies probably know better than the people who say oh we should produce and get ’em on the dealer lots and they’ll get sold eventually.

So I think dealers are trying to right size their inventory they’re watching their turns and they’re being responsible as far as ordering. And part of it is too with interest rates are they’re down a little bit but they’re still not where they were and the carrying costs of that inventory are a are another I guess governor on how much dealers are going to order.

[00:22:34] Brian Searl: Well so that’s what I was partly like what you just said was fascinating and I appreciate you like I didn’t I wasn’t really asking that but it is good information. I was more asking from a dealer operations side and I know that the ordering and the supply and the shipments and the retail stocking all play into that but how are they handling like price pressures as inflation maybe continues to go up and now we have fuel prices that are going to cause manufacture like it’s going to be a whole loop. Are they discounting for consumers? Are they like how are they approaching getting the consumer to buy in these times is there different sales taxes cause there different deals is there different units they’re trying to push is there…

[00:23:11] Phil Ingrassia: And it’s price is somewhat related to how much inventory they have on hand and how old that inventory is. Okay. So inventory ages they’ll discount it to get it off their books. So that’s part of it is making sure you have inventory that is in line with the demand in whatever market you’re in. So that’s one thing.

The other thing is your product mix as far as okay what have I got as far as entry level mid priced and then more upscale RVs. So you got to balance that off. But I and then I do think that the availability of financing also plays into that. So dealers who are doing price advertising for instance 4.99 a month for this trailer or whatever they’ve got to make sure that they can finance those units at that those rates. At that rate. Okay yep.

So that’s the other thing and financing availability is good there’s very few people that if they really want to buy an RV can’t find some somebody to finance it whether it’s through the dealership or through their through their own local banks or credit unions there’s financing available.

But the whole thing is consumer sentiment are they ready to buy that kind of thing. Yeah the dealers aren’t discounting right now there’s because they’re not overloaded with inventory. Not to say there aren’t good deals to be had out there right now there are there always are but it is we’re not seeing a big discounting environment out there right now.

[00:24:49] Brian Searl: Okay. Scott I’m curious from a campground perspective and maybe Simon you can answer this question a little bit too because we I was at the Croatian camping conference last year and we were looking at all the resorts that are on the Croatian coast there and they’re all not all but a significant number of them I think are more upscale than what the United States has to offer from an RV resort more so from like it has a restaurant and it has multiple pools and it might have more luxury mobile homes is that what we call ’em I can’t remember. Mobile homes.

But they’re all they’re it’s more of a resort feel than it is a like a true resort feel with everything condensed all in one at least in the Croatian and I know southern France has some of that stuff along the coast and things like that.

Whoever wants to take this but maybe both of you in pieces. So that question does that then exacerbate does the necessity of somebody or the desire for somebody to stay closer to home and drive less end up causing campgrounds if this stays this way long term nobody’s going to react in a month or two months or even six. Does this cause a situation where it’s beneficial then to put something like a restaurant on property Scott that maybe wasn’t as profitable from a margin perspective but now might be because more people are willing to eat there?

[00:26:09] Scott Bahr: My take on it is that something of that magnitude would be fairly reactionary.

[00:26:19] Brian Searl: In the short term for sure. I’m talking like if a year or two goes by and we see higher gas prices or meeting higher interest prices those kinds of things.

[00:26:26] Scott Bahr: Right if this is sustained and the look ahead calls for more you probably would want to start considering sometimes some types of infrastructure upgrades like that because for example right now we are seeing people staying in one place a little bit longer.

We’re not seeing the longer multi stop trips as much just people are just holding back on that again it goes with the shorten booking window it goes with staying closer to home during stress people like to stay closer to home even if they’re staying in one place longer then you want to build the infrastructure to…

[00:27:05] Brian Searl: The more you give them the more likely it is for them to choose your resort over the other one to stay longer at.

[00:27:11] Scott Bahr: Correct. Correct. Especially the one thing that you have to do the calculus on is any campground owner would be the trade off like how much more is someone going to spend there versus somewhere else and is that truly going to pull people in.

How independent are your guests are they cooking in their RV they cooking over the fire or is that their preference and when the economy is down people are quite a bit more likely and we do have data on this too by the way to prepare their own meals in camp whether they’re RVers or tent campers or whomever.

So because they know they can save that money the difference is a family of four going to McDonald’s it costs like 40 50 bucks now. And for that amount of money you can go to a grocery store and get quite a few groceries to cook over a fire.

[00:28:03] Brian Searl: I would really love to see the math on that in 2026. I think you’re right but I would really love to see if the margin has narrowed now that a pound of beef up here is like 15 16 bucks. For organic like nice beef right farm… And I remember when it used to be like five bucks in the states when I used to buy it when I lived down there. And obviously that was 10 years ago. But it would be interesting to see how fast those prices have risen not for organic but just generally speaking compared to restaurant.

[00:28:31] Scott Bahr: Well the issue is like with food costs is that they go up incrementally at the grocery store they go up exponentially at a restaurant.

[00:28:40] Brian Searl: Because of the staffing and all the other costs or…

[00:28:42] Scott Bahr: Yeah. Yep. It thus your honestly it it becomes more of a bargain to prepare in camp over time. I have some of this math I can share with you by the way Brian I’ve actually looked into this.

[00:28:54] Brian Searl: I’m curious I just want to see it like you say like what you’re saying makes logical sense that it would widen but it would be interesting to see especially with like minimum wage not going up very fast in the United States so does it skyrocket as much as it I don’t know anyway whatever.

[00:29:12] Scott Bahr: But yeah it’s an and one of the things that I do is I do have a special a whole different take on this as a vacation cost thing and food is a huge part of it. So if that guest is willing to to prepare their own food to do their own thing they’re gonna that’s what they want they’re not going to want to spend more to stay at your place because you have a restaurant.

[00:29:31] Brian Searl: No but then look at ways finish and then I want to say something finish and then I want to.

[00:29:34] Scott Bahr: So anyway as a campground owner you have to make that decision who is your guest. If it’s if you have a lot of overnight guests having on site food is probably a good investment because that person doesn’t want to do get out all the food do all the prep do all the dishes all that kind of stuff whereas someone who is staying there long term is much more likely to prepare their own meals at least for a decent amount of time.

One of the things we do know from past research though is campers in general do like to eat out at least a few times during their trips. So if you have that on site people are going to use it they will definitely use it. And it does give you an advantage it gives you something to talk about those are the things but again I think if we’re looking at a situation where the economy is really still down that the guests themselves might be less likely to purchase the prepared food for themselves.

[00:30:27] Brian Searl: But that’s when your creativity comes into play right and so this is two things let’s say you don’t want to put the capital into a restaurant because either you don’t have the data it’s only or the data is too short right three months six months a year and not two years so you’re not ready to make that pivot like we just talked about in the beginning.

But maybe there’s a service you could offer like making Uber or not Uber Uber Eats yeah Uber Eats or DoorDash or Instacart more accessible to your campground offering a suite of menu items or a staff member who can help you gather this stuff or making it more convenient for people to cook at the campsite or order from local restaurants nearby.

And then the other thing is like we talked about to a big group about this like a year and a half ago I don’t think they ever acted on it right but I have a big hydroponic garden in my living room. What if you just raised your site rates $5 and offered people fresh herbs and lettuce and all that stuff when they check in? Just things that they’re going to cook over the campfire anyway right? That enhance their flavor profile or save them a trip to the grocery store to buy something or but something that clearly differentiates you in the mind of the guest especially if they’re changing resorts less often and you want to make yourself sticky.

So there’s not all it doesn’t always have to be a big restaurant to make yourself sticky is my point it could be a little thing that just changes the experience for the guest and makes it easier on them while also maybe even making you some ancillary revenue. Because if you’re not breaking apart the price of the food and it’s $5 more a site does that make them more likely to stay with you Scott do they pay attention to the $5 versus a separate resort fee or a added expense of going to the restaurant paying it separately or? Does that change how they perceive the cost or?

[00:32:02] Scott Bahr: It will change it to a degree most people aren’t going to get down in the weeds that much on it they’re going to look at their overall costs they’re going to throw it all together and figure out what they can budget for on their trip again people become much more sensitive as the costs of everything increase. I it’s it does offer you some differentiation.

If the campground is going to consider anything things like food trucks DoorDash whatever those are decent options because you’re bringing it in for the guest you’re not making much money necessarily from it but you’re offering it as a service. And that may be a first step to is to do something like that.

You could also do things like on site preparation like a barbecue or something like that you could also use an experiential or do it instructional. And I I convinced a guy here locally where I live to do this where he did an outdoor kind of a class slash demo on cooking in a Dutch oven over a fire. And he had he sold out he had more people interested in it than he could host. He had stations set up throughout his little park.

And so things like that I think too are great ways to bring people in and that approach too does get get that person to think about the connection they make while they’re there how they connect with the park how they connect with the other people there. And they also learn something along the way. And so I think that to me is a kind of those types of things do all of them have a benefit but I think for the campground owner the ones that don’t require a lot of effort and a lot of outlay of revenue are probably going to be a little bit more attractive.

[00:33:43] Brian Searl: So Simon the question I was going to ask you I think is maybe better outlaid now. Do you have a sense of the history of a little bit of the European campground camp resort scene campsite scene? Did it start with everything condensed with restaurants and pools and all that on property because just the rigs weren’t as big and the drive time was shorter or is that something that the European camping scene evolved to over time and if you know what the reason was for that?

[00:34:09] Simon Neal: Yeah it definitely started very simple. So simple people coming with basic tents basic caravans trailers basic campervans. And I think the industry just evolved with the demand.

So there’s been a huge particularly in Croatia if you take an example the last 15 years it was very basic very simple but they’ve invested massively with their growth so joining the EU joining the Eurozone huge influx of new tourists with more money and they put that money into what people wanted from their experience.

So I think over time the whole holiday sort of trend has changed hotels got better and certainly in this region the campgrounds followed suit and they developed to meet that demand of we want a resort style holiday we want to come here we don’t want to have to leave the campground we want to be able to do anything we want by walking. So that’s relaxing at the pools swimming in the sea stuff for kids to do and also going out to eat in the evening.

So there’s still a mix you still have plenty campgrounds that are very basic and they serve that basic customer who wants to come in cook in their campervan or their camper for as cheap as possible move on the next day because they’re touring around versus the family who’s coming there prepared to spend and invest in their holiday and just have everything they need in one place.

[00:35:37] Brian Searl: Is there outside of Croatia is there a trend toward that too or is it just?

[00:35:43] Simon Neal: No I think that’s the whole of Europe. So I think I just use the example here because there’s been a dramatic change. But certainly all of the big holiday destinations which is where the good weather is the sea they have that demand for a holidays every year people travel a whole day one and a half days they want to sit for a week two weeks not have to worry about doing too much and are prepared to spend for that great experience.

So like Scott said you gotta know your customer. You gotta know your location and if you want to attract families who are going to come here are going to spend money and have everything they need in one place then you go for that you invest in it and I think the evidence certainly from this region is that pays off really big.

[00:36:28] Brian Searl: It’s almost a different category of resort than we have in the States from an outdoor hospitality. Isn’t it? Like I don’t see too many of what I would equate to what Croatia has and I haven’t been all over Europe to see enough of that stuff like we have RV resorts that are very nice but we don’t have that kind of resort here and it’s almost like a different class of customers that they’ve managed to pull directly from the hotel industry.

[00:36:55] Simon Neal: Yeah for sure. It’s getting there but like you can go to a resort here which has three four restaurants. It has an Italian it has an Asian restaurant it has a local restaurant it has a pizza restaurant. So you can go to a different one every night two times and that’s your whole week. It has an entertainment stage that has live music and kids stuff every day. And then it’s multi purpose restaurant as well so at night it’s a sit down during the day it’s like delivery order on your app I want a pizza for lunch comes from the same kitchen same restaurant so it’s been worked all day long.

So they’re definitely there are places where it’s super organized everything is there you don’t have to think about anything. And I haven’t seen that in the US. I’ve stayed at a couple of resorts when we’ve gone to visit our customers great pool great amenities but it’s not everything you need you have to leave the campground to go into town to have a meal out there wasn’t something on site at all.

[00:37:50] Brian Searl: I wonder if it takes like a bigger player like in the states like a Milton or Milton Marriott or Hilton or Hyatt to get involved in something like that because there are places like that there are Hyatt I can’t remember what their name not regencies I can’t think of the name. There are Hyatt resorts like that that are mostly outdoors. There aren’t very many but they probably could be in a stretch considered outdoor hospitality but they still don’t rise to the level of what we’re talking about in Europe.

[00:38:19] Simon Neal: Yeah but I’m talking about places that are family owned as well. Yeah. So there are some that are groups and there’s a group of seven or nine or 20 and they put the same layer of luxury on all of them. But there’s just family who have been there in business 20 years they’ve grown they’ve invested and now they’re a full on resort with everything they need. So it is possible.

[00:38:40] Brian Searl: We need some data on this Scott. Like we need some data on why this hasn’t been done in the United States. Is it the market is it the demographic is it the fact that we’ve had a lot of boomers and haven’t necessarily needed to change for a long time. Is it the investment cost is too much over here is it the land is too much there’s too much spread out versus Europe is condensed.

What is the reasoning because I think there’s a whole untapped audience for outdoor hospitality that maybe aren’t going to go out and buy class A’s from Phil’s dealers but might buy travel trailers or something else that could pull into some of these sites. Phil there’s a property in Croatia that has private pools on every RV site. So I’m just saying there’s possibility and then the other thing is you often see and Scott you back me up from data.

You often see that when people are going to outside of the outdoor hospitality industry when people are going to take a vacation they want to be confident in that vacation which is why Disney is so successful because one of the reasons because they can guarantee the Disney experience when you go to Disney. And so if you have a larger resort like that with the multiple restaurants or the app ordering or the pools or the multiple experiences then people I think are more confident trying that for the first time. And then they get introduced to outdoor hospitality in a whole different way from maybe the top to the bottom versus the tent to the RV.

[00:39:59] Scott Bahr: So my point of view on this and one of the reasons that you haven’t seen a proliferation of this type of resort here is essentially the foundation and the culture surrounding camping. Traditionally camping has been relatively a relatively blue collar type of activity. It appeals to the middle lower income group of people a lower income person can go camping for relatively short money they can take a vacation they can take a family vacation that’s affordable to them that they can budget for.

And that’s been our tradition there’s another factor in that in in the states camping traditionally has been a very social activity and it is very social again among the the middle and lower income folks who participate. So you have this very traditional type of camping culture in the US.

Glamping is changing that. It is taking away some of that the social parts of what people have traditionally experienced and one of the things that people were attracted to we are facing now a generation that’s not as into the social part of it as well.

But what you also see happening right now and we’ll go back to what you mentioned earlier the K curve the K graphic where when a person pays a certain amount there’s a threshold in the I would I think it’s probably about $300 per night mark where that person’s expectations start to change. And things like privacy and being catered to a little bit more start to really show themselves.

And so the type of resort that Simon is talking about and I saw the pictures of those and I think they’re really cool by the way that is the appeal that is to that higher end guest. It’s a very different type of camper.

[00:41:59] Brian Searl: Yes a different type of camper yeah.

[00:42:01] Scott Bahr: It’s a very different type of camper. And we see that early in our conversion data and booking intelligence too where we’re tracking like the dollar amount where the conversions drop and it drops at like $99 and then it goes back up at the 130… there’s like a middle like just complete void of again I don’t know K shaped right but you can see it.

Yeah. So it’s that really is what’s going on. And right now I think part of the kind of renormalization of camping is still occurring after the big disruption and you’re going to continue to see it.

One of the things that we’re we see and I do call it aspirational is that many of the people who are having the higher end types of experiences aspire to the lower end to more rustic to back country types of experiences to have that kind of outdoor experience because everything they’ve had at up to this point is very sanitized. And people still want to be outdoors.

As Phil knows in the RV industry when RVers they go to these campgrounds they’re not all sitting in their RVs all day. No they’re outside they’re doing stuff the RV is their it’s their shelter for the night. They’re you go out there people are all outside they’re engaging with each other they’re playing cards and drinking gin and tonics at whatever happy hour happens to be at the campground. And that’s part of that culture and in recent years we’ve gotten away from that it feels like it’s starting to creep back in a little bit but it is one of the challenges I feel like for the industry as well.

And that’s just a really long way of getting back to your original point about those types of resorts there’s a place for them and there will be people that design and develop those. I think you’ll probably see ’em start to pop up in the next couple of years once I think we got to get past some of these roadblocks we’re in right now but I think it’ll start to happen but I do believe it will be relatively limited.

[00:44:08] Phil Ingrassia: Well wouldn’t you think that some of these campgrounds they’re landlocked for one reas- for some respect they don’t have room to expand.

[00:44:08] Brian Searl: That’s true but you could argue Europe is much much smaller for land than the US is too. So there’s…

[00:44:09] Phil Ingrassia: Right but they’re not and they’re also adjacent to destinations where people want to be. So the ROI on trying to make yourself a all inclusive RV campground resort but people are gonna go to Dollywood in Tennessee right next door or five miles away you make that you can’t make that ROI. It doesn’t it doesn’t doesn’t come into view.

[00:44:16] Brian Searl: Agreed. That makes sense yeah.

[00:44:16] Scott Bahr: And the fact is too that it takes a lot of money to build something like that. Now we are seeing the money come in. The Margaritaville campgrounds coming in and I know I I forget what the layers of KOAs are but there’s some top end KOAs as well that would edge into this. Scott it’s out there but I would agree that it’s a bit limited and it’s definitely going to be limited where you can get that ROI and it’s mostly going to be in warm weather southern and western areas where you can have people in there all year long.

[00:44:51] Brian Searl: But Simon how do the how are the independent families getting money to build this if it’s so capital intensive in Europe?

[00:45:01] Simon Neal: Just over time. Bit by bit. But I think I don’t think there’s a direct comparison because the places I’m talking about in general you can cater for everybody. So they’re not like a high class resort where you come in and there’s one type of person. You can stay there for $40 a night in a tiny tent site or you can stay $500 a night in a super luxurious mobile home. And it’s all in the same place.

So you do get that mix and you can cater for everybody. And I think that’s the big success part is that you’re not splitting your audience very heavily. Yes you do need the balance you do need the people who are going to spend more and make sure the restaurants full every night. But you still get the other people coming in just staying in the cheaper sites but still spending a bit on site and kind of keeping you going.

So that having that nice distribution I think is key and I don’t really see that many examples. I know I’ve seen some of these super luxury places in the US but they’re definitely for the people with money and the people who don’t have money I don’t think feel welcome or can even afford to stay there a night so getting that balance I think is part of success.

[00:46:18] Brian Searl: No I think I asked Phil this before about the World Cup side of things whether the dealers have really pushed on that again or there’s been any sort of action towards benefiting that or is that kind of not in the thoughts too much?

[00:54:01] Phil Ingrassia: Definitely there’s been some movement on the rental side the RV rental side not only for World Cup but it’s also the 250th anniversary of the United States. So there’s been some limited marketing around some of those special events. It’s also the 100th 150th anniversary of Route 66 maybe it’s the 100th. Yeah it’s a hundred. Yeah.

There’s these special events that we’re trying to tie some things to and we’ll see a little bit of increase from that I would think. But certainly it’s on people’s mind and I know some of the campgrounds are doing some special stuff if they’re close to those those World Cup sites.

[00:54:45] Brian Searl: Alright. Any final thoughts Simon? And then where can they learn more about Camp Map?

[00:54:50] Simon Neal: No. Yeah you can find us on campmap.com or on LinkedIn can find me and reach out and get anything you need.

[00:54:57] Brian Searl: And Phil where can they learn more about RVDA?

[00:55:00] Phil Ingrassia: rvda.org has got all of our information as far as a dealer locator as well as information about our upcoming convention in November which we’re just starting to put together and if people are interested in speaking or exhibiting there’s information there.

[00:55:17] Brian Searl: Scott and I would like to do the keynote on Modo. Keep that in mind. Scott final thoughts? Where can they find out more about Cairn?

[00:55:25] Scott Bahr: Cairnconsulting.com. We have a resource library of a lot of reports. Some of those are I’ve done with Brian you can also go to Brian’s website to find some of that information as well. And yeah looking forward to doing more. Going to be in Florida for their convention coming up also going to be in DC Phil for RVs Move America Week coming up. So yeah a couple of things going on. I might there’s a couple others I might be at but I haven’t confirmed yet but yeah reach out if anybody has questions please.

[00:55:55] Brian Searl: Awesome. Thank you guys for joining us for another episode of MC Fireside Chats. If you’re not tired of hearing from me and Scott we will be on Outwired in about 40 55 minutes something like that. We’re going to just irritate some more people if we can because that’s what we do really best or at least I do and then Scott just joins in.

We’re going to talk about the outdoor industry and what qualifies as a participant what doesn’t what those numbers look like and then we’re also going to talk about Chinese RVs. Sorry Phil. And just see what that market looks like and just out of curiosity see what what is China doing and what does the market look like and what are they maybe there’s some takeaways that we can bring home to the US.

[00:56:26] Phil Ingrassia: Big market in Australia for Chinese RVs.

[00:56:29] Brian Searl: Is there? Okay.

[00:56:30] Phil Ingrassia: Oh yeah.

[00:56:31] Brian Searl: Alright. Thank you guys for joining us and we’ll see you next week on another episode of MC Fireside Chats. Take care guys. Appreciate you all.

[00:56:36] Scott Bahr: Bye.

[00:56:36] Simon Neal: Yeah. Bye bye.